(edited by Photoloss.4817)
Does the condition hate have a factual basis?
Players hate conditions because “conditions don’t have to kill you”, nothing more. For 3 years conditions was barely useless in sPvP and since the condition rework they got buffed so much to make players able to kill someone with it, or do high damage.
At the start, conditions was really OP, but now there’ so much ways to clean/ignore conditions that they’re barely useful using the chronomancer. Also, at the start condi amulets was more bunkerish than direct damage ones, but now that’s no more true, condi amulets have only a little more defence if you take the carrion, all the others are totally similar to direct damage amulets.
About damage, condition builds can inflict really more damage over a long time if compared to direct damage builds, but only if the enemy don’t clean/resist it. Actually every single class have at last two ways to clean conditions and some can really spam condi clean all the time (ele and war for example) or Resistance (war and reve), making condi builds more and more countered.
Direct damage have a little lower dps in long fight but every direct builds can Burst, inflict a insane amount of damage in few seconds, killing players easier than with condis, that need more time to inflict they’re full damage and can be countered easier.
Actually 6 classes over 9 use only direct damage but war and necro frequently chose to go direct damage because they perform better in SoloQ and have lesser counters for they’re damage.
The condition hate is totally useless because there’s only one class that go full condi in this meta.
This is how I see it. look the meta still heavily favors power damage over condi damage. U can kitten and moan all that u want but almost every power build is stronger then a condi variant u could think of in pvp. the only thing that was argueble were certain amulets making condi classes bunkerish (which i personally had no problem with but i understand the sentiment)and have access to burst condi. But that makes the problem not so much the condi damage but the tanky nature added due to certain amulets.
But in all honesty in pvp i simply think they are hated for the same reason thiefs are hated. It’s really just the playstyle because no matter u slice and dice it, power builds reign supreme. Could u accept a defeat easier if u got killed by a class that either dodges your skills and defeats u by use of less frontal fighting style. Even tough dodging and figthing sneaky is thier fighting style. Even tough thiefs’s favourable match-ups aren’t even half of the classes available, even tough theif actually has trouble in teamfights and is forced to decap+1. Anybody less then a good thief has even less favourable match-ups and might not even beat mesmers even tough they should. And they could be average thiefs. They still get hate because bieng attacked from behind is percieved as scummy, less honorable.
Condition damage is passive by nature, only the application of it is active, but once they hit u, there is no need to maintain the condition at it’s core unless removed with cleanses. Let’s say u get hit with a 20 k evisrate. the person actually makes a physical action.
Get hit with 15 burn stacks 15 confusion and 12 torment and 16 bleed. And the one that applies the conditions can litterally stand for a few seconds till u drop death. It’s scummy because u just stand there and don’t do kitten. even tough the evisrate is instant. physical action was taken. Possibly even prior actions that required taking a hit first, maby some dodges, blows were trade beforehand.
It’s the fighting style, that is why u till now still have people kitten about thiefs even tough they keep getting nerfed or balanced. Same for conditions. it doesn’t matter what the facts show. Conditions will keep getting hated.
This is how I see it. look the meta still heavily favors power damage over condi damage. U can kitten and moan all that u want but almost every power build is stronger then a condi variant u could think of in pvp. the only thing that was argueble were certain amulets making condi classes bunkerish (which i personally had no problem with but i understand the sentiment)and have access to burst condi. But that makes the problem not so much the condi damage but the tanky nature added due to certain amulets.
But in all honesty in pvp i simply think they are hated for the same reason thiefs are hated. It’s really just the playstyle because no matter u slice and dice it, power builds reign supreme. Could u accept a defeat easier if u got killed by a class that either dodges your skills and defeats u by use of less frontal fighting style. Even tough dodging and figthing sneaky is thier fighting style. Even tough thiefs’s favourable match-ups aren’t even half of the classes available, even tough theif actually has trouble in teamfights and is forced to decap+1. Anybody less then a good thief has even less favourable match-ups and might not even beat mesmers even tough they should. And they could be average thiefs. They still get hate because bieng attacked from behind is percieved as scummy, less honorable.
Condition damage is passive by nature, only the application of it is active, but once they hit u, there is no need to maintain the condition at it’s core unless removed with cleanses. Let’s say u get hit with a 20 k evisrate. the person actually makes a physical action.
Get hit with 15 burn stacks 15 confusion and 12 torment and 16 bleed. And the one that applies the conditions can litterally stand for a few seconds till u drop death. It’s scummy because u just stand there and don’t do kitten. even tough the evisrate is instant. physical action was taken. Possibly even prior actions that required taking a hit first, maby some dodges, blows were trade beforehand.
It’s the fighting style, that is why u till now still have people kitten about thiefs even tough they keep getting nerfed or balanced. Same for conditions. it doesn’t matter what the facts show. Conditions will keep getting hated.
So… How do people feel about Condition Thieves, then?
Bakuon/Bakuon Thief [MAS]/ ex-[ATac]
Well for myself, I just feel like every power build nowadays has become sooooooo much more tanky and equiped with every condition clear they can find on the class… Are they still power builds? Sure. Does the term tanky anti-attrition build seems to fit the bill more? I would say so.
Hate it or love it, it depends on what you find fun in a fight. A lot of power build players used to play GW2 because it gave us that thrill. Those fight that could end for either player from a well placed CC + burst are my best memories. On the other hand fighting a condi build was basically an attrition war where the power build chased the condi build around (wich gets boring really fast).
Nowadays, each ‘’power build’’ that exist on metabattle are built with the new ‘’more tanky or more mobile than ever’’ elite specialization.
-Dom/duel/insp Sword/sword + staff or Sword/pistol + staff power shatter mesmer are now chronomesmer.
-Good old power medi guard are now running the tankier and more mobile version.
-Good old zerker warrior (as in the amulet choice) are now Berserker warrior wich are more tanky than their old version with stab and resistance uptime that are pretty scary. Agreed that shoutbow were tanky and could deal with condi pressure, yet they did not deal the same damage… you had to chose!
-Good old elementalist (be it cele ele or Fresh air ele) are now running the super tanky wet noodle auramancer… I remember when folks were saying that cele ele were too tanky…
-Good old riffle engi (and even the old condi engi) are less tanky than both their new improved version.
-Necromancers were still quite strong despite what people said. They were strong when paired with allies, but it is true that their mobility/stab uptime was their weakness, thus solo queue was often risky. They made it so that their weakness is less obvious with the Reaper specilization. Did they give too much? I think it was necessary, yet they made core necro weak in comparison.
-Good old ranger… welp. They did need some love right? Pew Pew rangers and trap rangers were fun… yet a bit on the weak side. But it did change the gameplay instead of adding to it. Nowadays, most builds are druid variant wich offer condi clear and massive heals.
-Thief were the king of mobility and they still are, they just gained more mobility and even more dodges.
Did the old builds not have condi clear? They sure did! But if you use those old builds in today’s fight, you will feel the aids creep up on you and it kinda whispers you to go towards that tankier version.
To answer the OP’s question simply: Two reasons.
1. In order to kill an enemy, a Power build has to keep hitting skills and keep in contact (to the extent that you will be in range of the enemy’s skills). A Condition build can load its enemy with condis and then leave — stealth up, disengage, kite. The enemy dies without you having to be there.
2. In order to deal damage a Power build must invest in Power, Precision, and Ferocity. A Condition build needs only Condition Damage. Pre-HoT, this was necessary, as a Condi build killed you so slowly that it needed to be tanky in order to live long enough to win. With the HoT changes, it’s another advantage for Condi builds.
So, in addition to the psychological aspect you bring up (it is annoying), that’s the perception in a nutshell: A Condition build requires less effort and investment than a Power build.
I’d say a lot of the current problems have to do with the manner in which ANet decided to push for the viability of Condition builds in PvE and PvP. I think there is a better way to have done it, but we can save our opinions for another thread.
The idea that one can “stealth up” and leave after inflicting a condition is pure myth.
Long ago… a condi war could inflict bleeds that would kill without much chance of escape. They could them run away with fair confidence that the enemy would die.
That was a long time ago and with the amount of cleanse available it’s no longer true.
Mesmerising Girl
I’m guessing people see condition builds as passive play. the hard hitting power based skills have obvious tells, so when someone fails to dodge it its an obvious fault on their part. most condition based skills do not have obvious tells, and condition builds tend to have more tankyness. the thing that allows power builds to have dominance is not only condi clears, but the fact that heavy and fast dps acts as a sort of defense. that brings to mind the saying “the best defense is a good offense”.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
Only class that has condition build straight up better than power is mesmer. And condition mesmer’s biggest counters are zerker warrior, longbow DH and vault thief. All are power builds.
All other 8 classes have either equal or power-favored builds.
It is ridiculous to say condition is overpowered.
Only class that has condition build straight up better than power is mesmer.
Boom. And almost all aren’t even close.
If one is in a power versus power fight one could go all out for power type trait and utilities at each and every spot. As example , as a power thief take DA , CS , DD and trickery in some combination and go all out for damage.
Cycle your rotations to pump out the most damage as quickly as possible and a given encounter is over in a short period of time based on one or two mistakes or one build just generating more power damage.
Conditions come around and become viable. Now those power builds have to deal with higher toughness and vitality. That quick kill is harder. They also have to give up some of those traits or utilities they once took to deliver more damage to take Condition cleanses.
A lot of the power crowd did not like having to make these sacrifices and did not like losing the over in 4 seconds fights.
Added to that a lot of the people who always favored power tended to outright ignore condition builds because they simply underperfomed when stacked up to power. As such they got into the habit of ignoring all those little attacks because “Blocks and dodges should only be reserved for that BIG hit” (ie you do not waste a dodge on the AA of a warrior if you know an Eviscerate coming up). Given so many condition attacks are small and niggling (add one bleed here one poison there) they tend to just eat those attacks which along with a lack of cleanses means they suddenly in trouble.
They go into there nothing I can do mode and blame it on “cheese builds” rather then examine their own builds shortcomings or their own inability to adapt. Their favored build and playstyle no longer works so it is blamed on condition builds when it simply an evolution of a game they refuse to evolve along with.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
People hate condition damage because unlike power builds, your build build isn’t able to properly deal with them unless you build to accommodate counters. This makes fights vs conditions more binary and pre-determined than skill based. Years ago when we had a condition heavy meta in pvp I just ran full elixir engi with the now removed auto-immune response trait and laughed as got free kills and couldn’t die against them. Having binary match ups were you win/lose based more on just a trait or even 1 or 2 utilities isn’t good balance.
Just look at warriors, long ago warrior’s only defense against any form of condition damage was mending, and shouts + trooper runes, or the old un-nerfed melandru runes. Warriors lost so hard to condition builds that Anet basically told us we needed to have an ele babysit them to keep them clean, but when it became clear that it wasn’t healthy for the game (they were forced clean out of the meta) started adding other ways for them to handle conditions.
There are other subtleties that tilt people as well. Condition application tends to be much higher than skills that remove it, and condition damage attacks tend to get shorter cool downs because of the compounding nature of the attacks mean there is a period of time the opposing player has to recover. The problem here is it that it’s fairly easy to outstrip all but the most robust defenses against conditions. Because condition damage maintains pressure for a period of time without player input, the condition player can maintain offense while still defending.
^ that.
Unlike power enemies, you can’t cleanse damage away without taking things to cleanse damage away.
Also condi dmg maintains damage and this is much better than dealing it instantly for no reason.
Of course, that’s all a joke. Its the flawed basis of the hate.
In reality, condi builds have only two things going for them: armor piercing and allowing you to have a health or toughness stat instead of ferocity, cuz condi builds want expertise, condi dmg, precision(to proc traits and sigils- which are pretty important for having competitive dps) and power builds want power, precision, ferocity.
This, of course, is also a big joke. To have the same dps we want expertise, but that’s skipped when people start complaining about conditions.
TLDR
there is no factual basis besides that people ignore the need for precision and expertise to maximize condition dps, and people ignore that they can apply conditions in any build (which would render the argument that condis applying effects makes condi builds OP worthless) or switch out their ferocity with vitality to achieve the same tanky&dangerous feel.
I can apply over 3 stacks of bleeding.
Because relative to PvP HP caps it does virtually about the same as power, but requires only one stat investment creating a naturally tanky dps spec for conquest, where an abundance of survivability dominates the meta.
Also there are situations (like in the case of Mesmer but it’s not alone) where condi has more options to pressure in a fight when compared to its power counterpart.
The sometimes free added options, at less risk, and less investment drives a ton of the hate.
But honestly condi in and of itself alone doesn’t nessicariy over perform.
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
To answer the OP’s question simply: Two reasons.
1. In order to kill an enemy, a Power build has to keep hitting skills and keep in contact (to the extent that you will be in range of the enemy’s skills). A Condition build can load its enemy with condis and then leave — stealth up, disengage, kite. The enemy dies without you having to be there.
a condi build need aprox to “burn” the same number of skills to load the apropiate amount of condis, that can be blocked or evaded equal of power skills, the diference is that if power land all their skills oponent is dead, condis landing equal his skills have to wait until it dies from condis and condis can be cleared in this time and/or player get killed… no condis is not more pasive
2. In order to deal damage a Power build must invest in Power, Precision, and Ferocity. A Condition build needs only Condition Damage. Pre-HoT, this was necessary, as a Condi build killed you so slowly that it needed to be tanky in order to live long enough to win. With the HoT changes, it’s another advantage for Condi builds.
no, actually the advantage is for power builds they can get traits that gives tankines and forfeit all the old damage multiplicator traits(warrior is the preminent example) condis need to invest in triggering condi traits that are normaly crit dependant (they have to invest some on Prec)
So, in addition to the psychological aspect you bring up (it is annoying), that’s the perception in a nutshell: A Condition build requires less effort and investment than a Power build.
I’d say a lot of the current problems have to do with the manner in which ANet decided to push for the viability of Condition builds in PvE and PvP. I think there is a better way to have done it, but we can save our opinions for another thread.
no condis dont need less effort its only a perception bias, it only seem cuz power kills you in the moment condis only puts a marker above your head saying " you will be dead in 5….4…3…2….1…0" and you have this time to clear it and negate all the efort aplying condis
but yes, there are a problem now whith actual condi system: classes can aply so many diferent condis covering the real important ones and much of these condi bombs are in a more shorter cd than the condi clears making easy get killed by condis if you dont have a condi clear bot near, and if you have one that makes totally inviable the condi build
Condis also have secondary effect that they kept from times when condis were supposed to be utility. Imagine backstab would also reduce your healing by 50% for example and automatically cast on target when target hits thief – this is what condis are atm basically.
All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>
[Teef] guild :>
People are just salty. A warrior that loses to a thief will rage about how cheesy thieves are, a power mesmer losing to a condi mesmer will rage about how cheesy condis are, and a power necro losing to another power necro running the exact same build will rage about how the other necro just got lucky.
Granted, there ARE some really cheesy builds (like ghost thief in wvw), but for the most part it really doesn’t matter because people will rage about anything, lol.
Condis also have secondary effect that they kept from times when condis were supposed to be utility. Imagine backstab would also reduce your healing by 50% for example and automatically cast on target when target hits thief – this is what condis are atm basically.
Imagine power thief could reduce healing with autoattacks … oh wait.
Non-damage effects of condis are the same for all types of builds.
@question from op
I guess, the main reason, why people complain more about condis than about power (it has always been like this, no matter how the actual meta looked like), is, that playing against power is more intuitively. You see an attack, you get hit, your health immediately drops by a sigificant amout -> this pattern makes it easy to connect certain animations with the result (big dmg) and therefore it is pretty obvious, which attacks you want to avoid.
With condis it is different. You still see the attacks coming, but usually not much is happening after you see the animations. You got some condis on you, maybe use some cleanses, but your health isnt’t affected that much, so you don’t care. But of course condi builds will keep stacking condis on you and at a certain point those condis kill you. However, the attacks that killed you often happen seconds before this point, which leads to the feeling of getting condi bombed “out of nowhere”. Learning how to play against conditions (what to avoid and when to cleanse) requires an actual thinking and learning process and that’s something many players don’t want to do. They rather complain about op/cheesy/broken/whatever condis, often making wrong claims that reveal their cluelessness, and then wonder, why anet (and some other players) can’t take their complaints serious.
(edited by UmbraNoctis.1907)
People hate condition damage because unlike power builds, your build build isn’t able to properly deal with them unless you build to accommodate counters.
I always found his to be a poor argument. A build wont be able to properly deal with power damage either without proper build investment.
Condis also have secondary effect that they kept from times when condis were supposed to be utility. Imagine backstab would also reduce your healing by 50% for example and automatically cast on target when target hits thief – this is what condis are atm basically.
Imagine power thief could reduce healing with autoattacks … oh wait.
Non-damage effects of condis are the same for all types of builds.
It is not AA that does it, it is the poison – a condition.
All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>
[Teef] guild :>
Yes, but power builds benefit from those conditions as much as condition builds.
Yes, but power builds benefit from those conditions as much as condition builds.
because conditions were designed as utility originally
All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>
[Teef] guild :>
Yes, but power builds benefit from those conditions as much as condition builds.
because conditions were designed as utility originally
This isn’t true. How are bleeding or burning utility? Why did condition damage stat sets, sigils, and runes exist at launch? Why do many weapons do nearly no power damage and a lot of condi damage?
Some conditions have utility, always have and always will, like blind or chill. But condition damage builds have always been a thing.
Conditions have been viable to kill people for years. People also like to yell about them because Anet wants them to be viable. As yet power is still out shining condi on many classes so I’d expect more hate for condi as more builds become viable that use condi.
Condi hate has always been based on the design of cleanse in the game. Either a player is immune or dies quickly depending on how much cleanse they can/do equip. So when people face a good condi build without being able to cleanse it becomes oppressive in their mind.
condi dmg < power dmg because you can prevent condi dmg before it is fully dealt and it doesnt do more than power dmg. The “1 stat vs 3 stats” crap is untrue (condi dudes need precision, condi dmg and expertise to let their dps even get near power/ferocity/precision builds). Power builds can use cripple, chill, weakness, vuln etc just as well as condi builds so annoyance is not a factor.
I can apply over 3 stacks of bleeding.
a lot of players come from games where pure dot builds are not viable, & consequently think gw2 should be the same. however seeing as gw2 has been designed for power, condi or hybrid builds there will always be viable condi builds.
i would argue power is both easier & more powerful for pvp, with the exception of mesmer. power warrior & engineer are certainly more powerful than their condi counterparts.
the cabal of players who claim condi is skilless are just trying to boost their own egos. in reality nearly all defences against power work against condi (exemptions being bulwark, endure pain etc), plus you have condi cleanses too. so in reality you have more out play potential vs condi, which is why i find the QQ so amusing because all these players are saying is “i don’t stop condi application, & i cant manage my cooldowns, i’m just bad”.
the stat requirement argument is weak too. condi builds want condi damage & expertise, & many need precision also. many power builds (engi druid etc) just need power & precision, only the high damage power builds need ferocity. furthermore, condi builds often have to trait more offensively, & bring more offensive runes & sigils.
lastly, on the topic of passive procs, a critical hit is a passive proc based on rng. a fight can be won or lost depending on what abilities crit. power builds are all about being carried by rng.
. Engi & Warr . Beta > 2017 Death of PvP
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
Yes, but power builds benefit from those conditions as much as condition builds.
because conditions were designed as utility originally
This isn’t true. How are bleeding or burning utility? Why did condition damage stat sets, sigils, and runes exist at launch? Why do many weapons do nearly no power damage and a lot of condi damage?
Some conditions have utility, always have and always will, like blind or chill. But condition damage builds have always been a thing.
Increased damage to burning/bleeding foes? Don’t have those traits, nope? Not using condis to cover other condis?
Probably because those weapons were meant as utility (e.g. sb has been pure utility with extremely poor damage for 4.5 years now).
Yeah condi builds always have been a thing but i still think condi were meant for utility/attrition if anything and not crazy burst as it is now.
I am not arguing here whether condi or power is more OP, i am just guessing why condi is hated so much. They are very bursty now compared to previous years, still have their utility aspect and are very passive compared to power alternative, condi builds are also usually very tanky – a very unenjoyable mix to deal with hence the hate. It also doesn’t help that condi builds usually include some kind of cheese, e.g. perma dodge condi thieves or never dying condi wars chaining CCs 24/7.
All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>
[Teef] guild :>
(edited by Cynz.9437)
Yes, but power builds benefit from those conditions as much as condition builds.
because conditions were designed as utility originally
This isn’t true. How are bleeding or burning utility? Why did condition damage stat sets, sigils, and runes exist at launch? Why do many weapons do nearly no power damage and a lot of condi damage?
Some conditions have utility, always have and always will, like blind or chill. But condition damage builds have always been a thing.
Increased damage to burning/bleeding foes? Don’t have those traits, nope?
Probably because those weapons were meant as utility (e.g. sb has been pure utility with extremely poor damage for 4.5 years now).Yeah condi builds always have been a thing but i still think condi were meant for utility/attrition if anything and not crazy burst as it is now.
you really think p/p for engineer was designed for utility & attrition?
like really homes? its got a burst damage skill
. Engi & Warr . Beta > 2017 Death of PvP
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
currently a Boyfriend main :P
Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
" Condition application tends to be much higher than skills that remove it, and condition damage attacks tend to get shorter cool downs because of the compounding nature of the attacks mean there is a period of time the opposing player has to recover. The problem here is it that it’s fairly easy to outstrip all but the most robust defenses against conditions. Because condition damage maintains pressure for a period of time without player input, the condition player can maintain offense while still defending."
After playing condition builds, and playing a lot against them, I feel this pretty much rings true. There seems to be an imbalance right now between cooldowns for the defender, and how fast the condition build can keep re-applying the damage. It does feel like the fight is “on rails”, or on a timer so to speak. Its not enjoyable to play, or play against.
Well, for those who say condition build need 3 stats to deal damage, the same as a power build.
In theory it could be true, yet if you single out a power build with main ’’power’’ as an offensive stats along with minor in toughness and vitality. You will be a wet noodle without much chance to kill anything.
If you use a condition build with main ‘’condition damage’’ (wich is why Dire stats is not enabled in PvP…) as the offensive stats with minor to toughness and vitality, you will still be able to kill quite fast.
‘’Condition damage’’ singled out weight way more than ’’power’’ for a power build. Expertise (condition duration) is overvalued because it will often not even be needed because a) The conditions got cleared before the +duration took effect or b) the target is dead before the +duration took effect. Only in the scenario where the target survived the duration that include the extra added time does expertise shine.
As for precision, it is a nice cherry on the sunday for some condi builds (see here condi engineer with on crit condition application). For the engineer you basically get 1/3 of your crit chance to proc an extra added bleeding (with no ICD)… Wich is pretty bad. Most condi engi want only a little crit in order to score the extra 2 burn with the same probability as above… but with an ICD of 10 seconds. Since there is an ICD of 10 seconds, you don’t really need that high crit, you only want it to proc when off cooldown. You basically get a fraction of a fraction as a proc. Wich result in maybe a 10% extra added condition damage overall?
Seems like the numbers are so minimal that if a condition player is offered the option to go full dire… The choice is easy. For what I know, the majority in WvW do so. On the other hand, Solider stats for a power build (for duels or roaming) is pure garbage in WvW. Now… in WvW you also have trailblazer wich is Dire with expertise (wich is also not enabled in PvP). Basically, in PvP, you get a mild version of the condition builds. It is also a huge debate whenever this is brought up. Since WvW view condi like kitten while PvP players can’t see behind the amulet limitation that Anet only implement in structured PvP.
So, is condition easy mode? In WvW they sure are. In PvP? a bit more passive, yet not utterly broken.
" Condition application tends to be much higher than skills that remove it, and condition damage attacks tend to get shorter cool downs because of the compounding nature of the attacks mean there is a period of time the opposing player has to recover. The problem here is it that it’s fairly easy to outstrip all but the most robust defenses against conditions. Because condition damage maintains pressure for a period of time without player input, the condition player can maintain offense while still defending."
After playing condition builds, and playing a lot against them, I feel this pretty much rings true. There seems to be an imbalance right now between cooldowns for the defender, and how fast the condition build can keep re-applying the damage. It does feel like the fight is “on rails”, or on a timer so to speak. Its not enjoyable to play, or play against.
There are problems with that quote.
All sources of damage need to be higher than the ability to mitigate it or fight would last forever. It has to be higher than mitigation + heals or we get back to the bunker meta where nobody dies. Some classes are also made to be weak against conditions as other classes are made to be weak against cc or power-damage etc. You may or may not want that to be a thing but the devs have confirmed that this what they wanted.(probably to force power, condition, debuffing and cc to never be the best choice in every scenario instead of it being about playstyle)
Because condition damage maintains pressure for a period of time without player input, the condition player can maintain offense while still defending."
This is also looking at it the wrong way. Both power and conditions has to hit with their skills. Power deals it damage all at once and if you go down you do it right away, but condies gives you the chance of fighting back. Against condies you cleanse to take LESS damage and against power you use protection(or similar effects) to take LESS damage. And cleanse give you the ability to get rid of all the damage although that is not realistically a thing that happens. There is little imbalance here and conditions are even potentially weaker as the effect takes longer and can be fully mitigated. (I wont mention blocks, evades, invulnerability as they stop both incoming condition and power attacks).
What I can agree with is that condition skills usually have less noticeable tells which is not a problem with conditions themselves but the skills. Some skills are also doing too much even if it’s about raw damage output or skills that do too many things at once but there are examples of that for both types of damage.