Guild Wars 2

Here is why:

https://youtu.be/zzPLYGWyeE0

This is the main reason why DD Eles (and Engis prior to June 23rd) were so frustrating prior to HoT… I’d like to add however that not all classes have strong base damage i.e. non DH Guardians, Thieves, non Druid Rangers, etc. I suppose it’s overlooked because it evens out with more stat focused amulets such as Marauder.

Nova Stiker.8396:

You can nerf it ArenaNet BUT only when you figure out why it’s so good.

Answers to why it’s so good below, NO CHEATING!

https://youtu.be/zzPLYGWyeE0

It all depends.

Some weapon skills do not have conditions on them, making celestial deal lower damage.

If you try that with warrior auto attack, it would scale better.

Another factor is the skill modifiers, a lot of skills do not scale well with the power stat.

Example: Ranger Shortbow scales really bad with the power stat. Even if you put full zerk gear on you.

Third Reason is that people blame it on various things, if they are bad and lose to people in pvp. Like a lot of people here on the forums.

Tontonino.9736:

This is the main reason why DD Eles (and Engis prior to June 23rd) were so frustrating prior to HoT… I’d like to add however that not all classes have strong base damage i.e. non DH Guardians, Thieves, non Druid Rangers, etc. I suppose it’s overlooked because it evens out with more stat focused amulets such as Marauder.

Heart of Thorns was clearly unfinished. If you compare the warrior axe attack Eviscerate level 2 to the Dragonhunters True shot, they deal the same out of damage. A skill that has 1,200 range, pierces AND has a 4 second cooldown has the same scaling with power as a level 2 Eviscerate.

While some weapons are clearly designed with power in mind, it only affects 0-2 skills on the bar (yes, power based weapons can have horrific scaling all around). Yet, conditions can be on every skill.

I’m not saying buff power, what I am saying celestials or any 4 stat-line will always be superior.

This is true for most abilities and classes- minus Thief. Yay for uniqueness. No crits=no damage=tankiness matters not because we are not tanky nor have decent damage= why in the heck did I take celestial?

I tested it :c It was the dumbest thing I’ve ever done. Though I agree everything has garbage scaling because you lose 1-2% damage from berserker to Marauder… but gain dps if you take Crit while wielding Marauder anyway… SIIIGH.

I do want a tiny nerf to Celestial, its 700 points total higher than the 4 stat amulets. So 100 per stat (7 stats) would equalize, but based on video/calculations even just 35 damage per stat would be effective (525 per stat instead of 560) in reducing its global usage.

On an offnote, I’ve played cele only once- when celementalist was god. I always played Carrion (now wanderers) or Berserker (now marauder).

Serious Thought.5394:

This is true for most abilities and classes- minus Thief. Yay for uniqueness. No crits=no damage=tankiness matters not because we are not tanky nor have decent damage= why in the heck did I take celestial?

I tested it :c It was the dumbest thing I’ve ever done. Though I agree everything has garbage scaling because you lose 1-2% damage from berserker to Marauder… but gain dps if you take Crit while wielding Marauder anyway… SIIIGH.

I do want a tiny nerf to Celestial, its 700 points total higher than the 4 stat amulets. So 100 per stat (7 stats) would equalize, but based on video/calculations even just 35 damage per stat would be effective (525 per stat instead of 560) in reducing its global usage.

On an offnote, I’ve played cele only once- when celementalist was god. I always played Carrion (now wanderers) or Berserker (now marauder).

Scaling needs to be buffed or all amulets need a 4-stat split. Right now GW2 scaling will always favor more stats.

I do not deny that. Jeez. I asked for formula info, but ofc no dev response. I ask for detail correction, no dev response. Safe to assume they want us to know the answers FOR THEM, while they neglect letting us assist? Is this like copyright infringement rules where providing an item means it cannot be used without explicit and expressed permissions to all necessary parties? I’m so lost and upset tbh.

Serious Thought.5394:

I do not deny that. Jeez. I asked for formula info, but ofc no dev response. I ask for detail correction, no dev response. Safe to assume they want us to know the answers FOR THEM, while they neglect letting us assist? Is this like copyright infringement rules where providing an item means it cannot be used without explicit and expressed permissions to all necessary parties? I’m so lost and upset tbh.

Because they don’t have to share anything, responding is optional

The fact is, the balance team isn’t very good.

Faith is earned, not given. Silence destroys trust, faith requires trust, silence destroys faith. Welcome to simple emotional psychology, did anyone in your marketing take the kitten ed thing?

Its an amulet probably in 50% of builds when its one of maybe 20 or so amulets. So it should be in 5% of builds.

50% is alot more than 5%. This is basic statistics which should be used for game balancing.

But either way, they wont nerf the amulet in 2016 or probably 2017 so I wouldn’t worry about it. It will never happen.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Its an amulet probably in 50% of builds when its one of maybe 20 or so amulets. So it should be in 5% of builds.

50% is alot more than 5%. This is basic statistics which should be used for game balancing.

But either way, they wont nerf the amulet in 2016 or probably 2017 so I wouldn’t worry about it. It will never happen.

It’s not about how much an amulet is used, it’s about how useful it is. Not all designs can be used equally across people.

That being said, Guild Wars 2 PvP just isn’t designed for 3 stat allocations because of how poorly things scale.

Personally I hope they get rid of celestial from PvP and buff it in PvE as currently it’s kinda garbage in PvE because of all the PvP stuff.

Then you can start having meaningful 4 stat combos that will fit niches for low health classes like thieves and elementalists without going ott on the offensive stats.

I mean, that’s why ele and pre spec engy did so well on celestial, they had lots of damaging conditions with good power scaling so made use of every single stat. This is why it’s kinda meh on other classes, they don’t make use of all the offensive stats because they are missing conditions and/or the scaling on power isn’t as high.

Ehm I don’t really understand the authors way of reasoning, you say more stats will always be superior , that’s why celestial amulet, which is the amulet that gives the highest amount of stats, should not be nerfed?
Doesn’t that mean you acknowledge that celestial is the strongest amulet?
Do you want the game to stay unbalanced regarding this?
Or do you want to buff other amulets even though nerfing one amulet would be easier than buffing a dozen others and people are complaining about power creep already?
And wouldn’t that just be a nerf to celestial since its relative power would be lowered?

Nova Stiker.8396:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Its an amulet probably in 50% of builds when its one of maybe 20 or so amulets. So it should be in 5% of builds.

50% is alot more than 5%. This is basic statistics which should be used for game balancing.

But either way, they wont nerf the amulet in 2016 or probably 2017 so I wouldn’t worry about it. It will never happen.

It’s not about how much an amulet is used, it’s about how useful it is. Not all designs can be used equally across people.

That being said, Guild Wars 2 PvP just isn’t designed for 3 stat allocations because of how poorly things scale.

Well it pretty much is about how much it is used. If a single amulet out of 20+ is like 50% of the meta then its pretty clearly and mathematically warping the game and therefore too strong. Meanwhile there are 20 other amulets which rarely see use. Because they are undermined by the raw stat advantage gained from 1 particular amulet.

Celestial got buffed when 3 trait lines became a thing because it meant more traits and the ability to build a more rounded and powerful character.

Either way, the discussion is pointless. The factual statistics point to it being the most obvious nerf possibly in the history of GW2. Nothing you or I think matters. Math/facts >> opinions.

Maxodon.5243:

Ehm I don’t really understand the authors way of reasoning, you say more stats will always be superior , that’s why celestial amulet, which is the amulet that gives the highest amount of stats, should not be nerfed?
Doesn’t that mean you acknowledge that celestial is the strongest amulet?
Do you want the game to stay unbalanced regarding this?
Or do you want to buff other amulets even though nerfing one amulet would be easier than buffing a dozen others and people are complaining about power creep already?
And wouldn’t that just be a nerf to celestial since its relative power would be lowered?

I’d much rather have a scaling rebalance than a nerf to the celestial amulet. As I said in the video, there is absolutely 0 reasons to go 1,200 into anything in PvP.

I don’t think the video shows conclusive material to determine whether or not Celestial amulet should be nerfed, I kinda did an analysis of Celestial vs Specialized, please correct me if wrong (is just an estimate anyways)

In general Attributes:

Specialized / Celestial / Loss %
Main: +1200 / +560 / 53% loss
Secondaries (2x): +900 / +560 / 34% loss
All other +0 / +560

So applying this to roles:

- Dedicated healer won’t be an option but will still be able to heal and support with boons/auras while dealing more damage (Great for solo, not as good for team)
- As for DPS would think I would suffer lots but truth is that damage is a mix of condition damage + direct damage. Secondary attributes (Ferocity & Precision) have a saying in this as well (Mostly/only in berserk), but adding in a different scale as they don’t always proc so kinda have to play with the numbers again.

Damage:
Specialized / Celestial / % Loss
1200(direct) / 560(Direct) + 560(conditions) = 1120 / 6% Loss

To calculate the loss from Critical damage:

Critical chance Secondaries
Specialized / Celestial / % Loss (spec-cel)
46.9% / 30.8% / 16.1% less chance of critical

Critical damage Loss :
210 / 187.3 / 23%

Total damage done by criticals (chance x critical damage)
Specialized / Celestial / % Loss (spc-cel)
98.5% / 57.7% / 40.8%

40.8% is the total damage loss that applies only to direct damage, since that kind of damage is only half the source of damage (debatable) we can roughly say the total loss on damage due to critical hits on a mixed build vs a critical heavy class as Berserk is 20.4% (can be seen as 0% loss on condition damage build, 40.8% loss on zerker build)

So an approximate number for the total damage loss is 26.6% less damage (Decreases as the toughness of opponents increases)

Edit: As a suggestion to developer’s question about what could be an effective celestial replacement (That keeps the functionality while being scaled down to the rest of amulets) I would say.

Power: 560
Condition Damage: 560
Precision: 560
Ferocity: 560
Vitality: 280
Toughness: 280
Healing power: 560

feel free to remove celestial amulet if you buff dps ele to god tier. if you can’t do that then go away <3

Nova Stiker.8396:

Maxodon.5243:

Ehm I don’t really understand the authors way of reasoning, you say more stats will always be superior , that’s why celestial amulet, which is the amulet that gives the highest amount of stats, should not be nerfed?
Doesn’t that mean you acknowledge that celestial is the strongest amulet?
Do you want the game to stay unbalanced regarding this?
Or do you want to buff other amulets even though nerfing one amulet would be easier than buffing a dozen others and people are complaining about power creep already?
And wouldn’t that just be a nerf to celestial since its relative power would be lowered?

I’d much rather have a scaling rebalance than a nerf to the celestial amulet. As I said in the video, there is absolutely 0 reasons to go 1,200 into anything in PvP.

carrion pretty beast on necro though

Cam Ron.4170:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Maxodon.5243:

Ehm I don’t really understand the authors way of reasoning, you say more stats will always be superior , that’s why celestial amulet, which is the amulet that gives the highest amount of stats, should not be nerfed?
Doesn’t that mean you acknowledge that celestial is the strongest amulet?
Do you want the game to stay unbalanced regarding this?
Or do you want to buff other amulets even though nerfing one amulet would be easier than buffing a dozen others and people are complaining about power creep already?
And wouldn’t that just be a nerf to celestial since its relative power would be lowered?

I’d much rather have a scaling rebalance than a nerf to the celestial amulet. As I said in the video, there is absolutely 0 reasons to go 1,200 into anything in PvP.

carrion pretty beast on necro though

It is mainly because Soul Reaping gets a lot from vitality. Once again the strong scaling playing a major factor.

Cam Ron.4170:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Maxodon.5243:

Ehm I don’t really understand the authors way of reasoning, you say more stats will always be superior , that’s why celestial amulet, which is the amulet that gives the highest amount of stats, should not be nerfed?
Doesn’t that mean you acknowledge that celestial is the strongest amulet?
Do you want the game to stay unbalanced regarding this?
Or do you want to buff other amulets even though nerfing one amulet would be easier than buffing a dozen others and people are complaining about power creep already?
And wouldn’t that just be a nerf to celestial since its relative power would be lowered?

I’d much rather have a scaling rebalance than a nerf to the celestial amulet. As I said in the video, there is absolutely 0 reasons to go 1,200 into anything in PvP.

carrion pretty beast on necro though

Cele is still better, but on this meta with a cele necro you dont kill anything…

Nova Stiker.8396:

Cam Ron.4170:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Maxodon.5243:

Ehm I don’t really understand the authors way of reasoning, you say more stats will always be superior , that’s why celestial amulet, which is the amulet that gives the highest amount of stats, should not be nerfed?
Doesn’t that mean you acknowledge that celestial is the strongest amulet?
Do you want the game to stay unbalanced regarding this?
Or do you want to buff other amulets even though nerfing one amulet would be easier than buffing a dozen others and people are complaining about power creep already?
And wouldn’t that just be a nerf to celestial since its relative power would be lowered?

I’d much rather have a scaling rebalance than a nerf to the celestial amulet. As I said in the video, there is absolutely 0 reasons to go 1,200 into anything in PvP.

carrion pretty beast on necro though

Main reason its good is because Soul Reaping gets a lot from vitality. Once again the strong scaling playing a major factor.

I use to think so, but toughness applies to deathshroud as well and arguably scales a bit better than vitality due to the necro’s low base armor and high health pool. Right now however I think Vit is just stronger on all classes right now with the prevalence of Condi and hybrid builds

Its also good because they have a kitten ton of condi damage and that trait which gives you 50% free crit in shroud making power good.

But I agree with the overall assessment that 3 stat combos in general are a bit kitten. Carrion reaper is the exception, not the rule. tl;dr nerf cele

Cam Ron.4170:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Cam Ron.4170:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Maxodon.5243:

Ehm I don’t really understand the authors way of reasoning, you say more stats will always be superior , that’s why celestial amulet, which is the amulet that gives the highest amount of stats, should not be nerfed?
Doesn’t that mean you acknowledge that celestial is the strongest amulet?
Do you want the game to stay unbalanced regarding this?
Or do you want to buff other amulets even though nerfing one amulet would be easier than buffing a dozen others and people are complaining about power creep already?
And wouldn’t that just be a nerf to celestial since its relative power would be lowered?

I’d much rather have a scaling rebalance than a nerf to the celestial amulet. As I said in the video, there is absolutely 0 reasons to go 1,200 into anything in PvP.

carrion pretty beast on necro though

It is mainly because Soul Reaping gets a lot from vitality. Once again the strong scaling playing a major factor.

I use to think so, but toughness applies to deathshroud as well and arguably scales a bit better than vitality due to the necro’s low base armor and high health pool.

Main reason its good is because they have a kitten ton of condi damage and that trait which gives you 50% free crit in shroud making power good.

But I agree with the overall assessment that 3 stat combos in general are a bit kitten. Carrion reaper is the exception, not the rule. tl;dr nerf cele

So… the question is, should all amulets be 4 stats to keep up with the power creep?

Nova Stiker.8396:

Cam Ron.4170:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Cam Ron.4170:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Maxodon.5243:

Ehm I don’t really understand the authors way of reasoning, you say more stats will always be superior , that’s why celestial amulet, which is the amulet that gives the highest amount of stats, should not be nerfed?
Doesn’t that mean you acknowledge that celestial is the strongest amulet?
Do you want the game to stay unbalanced regarding this?
Or do you want to buff other amulets even though nerfing one amulet would be easier than buffing a dozen others and people are complaining about power creep already?
And wouldn’t that just be a nerf to celestial since its relative power would be lowered?

I’d much rather have a scaling rebalance than a nerf to the celestial amulet. As I said in the video, there is absolutely 0 reasons to go 1,200 into anything in PvP.

carrion pretty beast on necro though

It is mainly because Soul Reaping gets a lot from vitality. Once again the strong scaling playing a major factor.

I use to think so, but toughness applies to deathshroud as well and arguably scales a bit better than vitality due to the necro’s low base armor and high health pool.

Main reason its good is because they have a kitten ton of condi damage and that trait which gives you 50% free crit in shroud making power good.

But I agree with the overall assessment that 3 stat combos in general are a bit kitten. Carrion reaper is the exception, not the rule. tl;dr nerf cele

So… the question is, should all amulets be 4 stats to keep up with the power creep?

No what I suggest is something I’ve felt for a long time, I acutally think they should allow us to allocate our own stats, within certain rules and parameters. The cookie cutter amulet idea never really appealed to me. I would prefer more customization in general.

If we’re sticking to the cookie cutter ones- We could start by buffing ferocity. That stat is utter kitten- Give us crit damage back.

All amulets should have 4 OR, as Cam Ron said, there should be a template setup where you can allocate your points. Celestial needs a minor nerf as a minimum, but as a maximum the ability scaling needs to have a base and scaling value that makes traiting into power worth it. Condition damage is worth it (its a single stat, how could it not be).

Cam Ron.4170:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Cam Ron.4170:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Cam Ron.4170:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Maxodon.5243:

Ehm I don’t really understand the authors way of reasoning, you say more stats will always be superior , that’s why celestial amulet, which is the amulet that gives the highest amount of stats, should not be nerfed?
Doesn’t that mean you acknowledge that celestial is the strongest amulet?
Do you want the game to stay unbalanced regarding this?
Or do you want to buff other amulets even though nerfing one amulet would be easier than buffing a dozen others and people are complaining about power creep already?
And wouldn’t that just be a nerf to celestial since its relative power would be lowered?

I’d much rather have a scaling rebalance than a nerf to the celestial amulet. As I said in the video, there is absolutely 0 reasons to go 1,200 into anything in PvP.

carrion pretty beast on necro though

It is mainly because Soul Reaping gets a lot from vitality. Once again the strong scaling playing a major factor.

I use to think so, but toughness applies to deathshroud as well and arguably scales a bit better than vitality due to the necro’s low base armor and high health pool.

Main reason its good is because they have a kitten ton of condi damage and that trait which gives you 50% free crit in shroud making power good.

But I agree with the overall assessment that 3 stat combos in general are a bit kitten. Carrion reaper is the exception, not the rule. tl;dr nerf cele

So… the question is, should all amulets be 4 stats to keep up with the power creep?

No what I suggest is something I’ve felt for a long time, I acutally think they should allow us to allocate our own stats, within certain rules and parameters. The cookie cutter amulet idea never really appealed to me. I would prefer more customization in general.

If we’re sticking to the cookie cutter ones- We could start by buffing ferocity. That stat is utter kitten- Give us crit damage back.

So if you give free range stat allocation, it’ll need to have players select an offensive and a defensive stat, otherwise we’ll have even more unkillable bunkers.

They aren’t going to nerf Celestial (shaved, maybe).

Scrubs will always cry when competent players aren’t as easy to kill as they think they should be. If Celestial was removed next players would start complaining about 4 stat amulets. Marauder (my favorite amulet) is after all, just Berzerkers for scrubs.

What do you mean skills don’t scale that well? That makes no sense.
Non-crit damage is directly proportional to power.

And for the record, power beats out an equal amount of precision or ferocity for average direct damage in most cases.

I think there is a problem when ppl make Condi builds with a Cele Amulet rather than a Condi Prime Stat amulet. That suggests that something might be a bit off.

Don’t nerf the ammy.

Just stop trying to hold our hands. Give us PVE stats distributions.

Just change the diminished returns level of some stats for PVP and adjust stats scalling for PVP.

Stop trying to dumb down an already casual RPG system. We need a full fledge possibilities to be out of stale META.

Thank you,
Dal

kuritsutian.2987:

Edit: As a suggestion to developer’s question about what could be an effective celestial replacement (That keeps the functionality while being scaled down to the rest of amulets) I would say.

Power: 560
Condition Damage: 560
Precision: 560
Ferocity: 560
Vitality: 280
Toughness: 280
Healing power: 560

No thanks.

As for the rest of your post, don’t bring logic into the discussion in these forums, it flies way above most of the folks around here…

reikken.4961:

Non-crit damage is directly proportional to power.

No, it isn’t. It takes power greatly into account but there base damage for any skill, and for some professions this base damage value is higher. This means that you need less power to achieve the same results of a class with a higher power setup.

For example, Guardians would greatly benefit from all stats but you won’t ever see, for example, a meditation Cele because the damage is too lackluster. Compare that to what cele engi and ele were.

Tontonino.9736:

reikken.4961:

Non-crit damage is directly proportional to power.

No, it isn’t. It takes power greatly into account but there base damage for any skill, and for some professions this base damage value is higher. This means that you need less power to achieve the same results of a class with a higher power setup.

For example, Guardians would greatly benefit from all stats but you won’t ever see, for example, a meditation Cele because the damage is too lackluster. Compare that to what cele engi and ele were.

Do you have any kind of proof for that, I mean real numbers not the type of example you just gave? Atleast according to the wiki damage is calculated like this:

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

reikken.4961:

What do you mean skills don’t scale that well? That makes no sense.
Non-crit damage is directly proportional to power.
…

well, that statement is only true if you add base stats. and OP is talking just about ‘bonus’ stats from amulet, that ‘bonus’ power from amulet is what does not scale too well

as we all know from wikki:

Damage = (Weapon strength * Power * Skill coefficient) / Armor

lets say average weapon dmg is X, skill coef Y, target with same armor Z

then its X(1000+1200)Y/Z for soldier/berserker and X(1000+560)Y/Z for celestial

making it 2200 vs 1560 raw power damage difference.

so even tho ‘bonus’ power increased more than twice (from 560 to 1200), raw power damage increased only by (2200/1560)*100%-100%= 41%

tl;dr;

miscommunication about power gained from amulet vs total power from base stats and amulet.
only latter directly scales well.
power on amulet don’t scale well

Stats + 25 stacks of might, easy gained on ele, engi, necro
So thats 1000 more stat point on power and cond combined with the defensiv stats.

Thats a problem

Tontonino.9736:

reikken.4961:

Non-crit damage is directly proportional to power.

No, it isn’t. It takes power greatly into account but there base damage for any skill, and for some professions this base damage value is higher. This means that you need less power to achieve the same results of a class with a higher power setup.

For example, Guardians would greatly benefit from all stats but you won’t ever see, for example, a meditation Cele because the damage is too lackluster. Compare that to what cele engi and ele were.

That is actually true, a lot of the guardian greatsword skills, either 3, 4 or all 5 of greatsword attacks scale better than any other class.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hundred_Blades
It’s funny, for anyone that does raids or been in situations were your warrior has had the utmost amount of extra power will find out the final hit of hundred blades will actually deal less damage than the first hit.

That doesn’t make sense. All the direct damage weapon skills scale exactly the same with power. The skill coefficient is multiplied to the attacker power!

Your remark about Hundred Blades you’ll have to explain your math better because I have no idea how you can reach that conclusion.

Hundred blades has 8 hits for a total weapon coefficient of 4.4, aka 8 hits of 0.55 coef each. And a finisher hit of 1.10 coefficient. It means that the last hit of hundred blades always does exactly twice the damage of all the previous hits individually (1.1 = 0.55×2)

stof.9341:

That doesn’t make sense. All the direct damage weapon skills scale exactly the same with power. The skill coefficient is multiplied to the attacker power!

Your remark about Hundred Blades you’ll have to explain your math better because I have no idea how you can reach that conclusion.

No, it does not scale the same, I’m not sure where you even got the conclusion that all attacks scale exactly the same.

The final hit for hundred blades doesn’t scale as well at the other 8 hits, BUT it has more base damage. So if your power is extremely high (like my warrior has ~3,500 with 25 stacks of might) the final hit won’t deal as much damage.

Also, the base power is divided by 8, but the coefficient isn’t.

That’s not how the game works. The page you linked even gives you all the details.

Skills do NOT have a base power. Skills have a skill coefficient. The base damage is your weapon damage range. The power is the player power stat as you can find on your char screen.

weapon damage * skill coefficient * attacker’s power / target’s armor

stof.9341:

That’s not how the game works. The page you linked even gives you all the details.

Skills do NOT have a base power. Skills have a skill coefficient. The base damage is your weapon damage range. The power is the player power stat as you can find on your char screen.

weapon damage * skill coefficient * attacker’s power / target’s armor

Which is a complete lie for PvP, weapon damage has no effect in PvP. Even the base 1,000 power shown on the screen goes completely ignored by the attackers power.

Everything is calculated in PvP as: skill coefficient * (attacker’s power -1000) / target’s armor.

Come to think of it, the 1,000 power everyone has might actually do nothing for extra damage in all modes, not just PvP.

Nova Stiker.8396:

stof.9341:

That’s not how the game works. The page you linked even gives you all the details.

Skills do NOT have a base power. Skills have a skill coefficient. The base damage is your weapon damage range. The power is the player power stat as you can find on your char screen.

weapon damage * skill coefficient * attacker’s power / target’s armor

Which is a complete lie for PvP, weapon damage has no effect in PvP. Even the base 1,000 power shown on the screen goes completely ignored by the attackers power.

Everything is calculated in PvP as: skill coefficient * (attacker’s power -1000) / target’s armor

Interesting how you pretend the base damage formula in the game is different in PvP when ANet is so resistant to the idea of making a PvP/PvE split :p

And your formula is so funny. Try say a Settler Amulet. Result? attacker’s power = 1000. You are basically saying that settler amulet users do 0 damage in all situations except with conditions

stof.9341:

Nova Stiker.8396:

stof.9341:

That’s not how the game works. The page you linked even gives you all the details.

Skills do NOT have a base power. Skills have a skill coefficient. The base damage is your weapon damage range. The power is the player power stat as you can find on your char screen.

weapon damage * skill coefficient * attacker’s power / target’s armor

Which is a complete lie for PvP, weapon damage has no effect in PvP. Even the base 1,000 power shown on the screen goes completely ignored by the attackers power.

Everything is calculated in PvP as: skill coefficient * (attacker’s power -1000) / target’s armor

Interesting how you pretend the base damage formula in the game is different in PvP when ANet is so resistant to the idea of making a PvP/PvE split :p

And your formula is so funny. Try say a Settler Amulet. Result? attacker’s power = 1000. You are basically saying that settler amulet users do 0 damage in all situations except with conditions

You appeared to have completely forgotten the skill coefficient existed.

If players REALLY did have 1,000 free power, everything would be doing more damage. Say I did have a settlers amulet, the damage shown on the Reapers greatsword auto attack should say 1,342 with the 0 extra power.

But it doesn’t, it just shows 342 despite having 1,000 power.

Nova Stiker.8396:

stof.9341:

Nova Stiker.8396:

stof.9341:

That’s not how the game works. The page you linked even gives you all the details.

Skills do NOT have a base power. Skills have a skill coefficient. The base damage is your weapon damage range. The power is the player power stat as you can find on your char screen.

weapon damage * skill coefficient * attacker’s power / target’s armor

Which is a complete lie for PvP, weapon damage has no effect in PvP. Even the base 1,000 power shown on the screen goes completely ignored by the attackers power.

Everything is calculated in PvP as: skill coefficient * (attacker’s power -1000) / target’s armor

Interesting how you pretend the base damage formula in the game is different in PvP when ANet is so resistant to the idea of making a PvP/PvE split :p

And your formula is so funny. Try say a Settler Amulet. Result? attacker’s power = 1000. You are basically saying that settler amulet users do 0 damage in all situations except with conditions

You appeared to have completely forgotten the skill coefficient existed.

And you appear to have forgotten what a multiplication by 0 does.

stof.9341:

Nova Stiker.8396:

stof.9341:

Nova Stiker.8396:

stof.9341:

That’s not how the game works. The page you linked even gives you all the details.

Skills do NOT have a base power. Skills have a skill coefficient. The base damage is your weapon damage range. The power is the player power stat as you can find on your char screen.

weapon damage * skill coefficient * attacker’s power / target’s armor

Which is a complete lie for PvP, weapon damage has no effect in PvP. Even the base 1,000 power shown on the screen goes completely ignored by the attackers power.

Everything is calculated in PvP as: skill coefficient * (attacker’s power -1000) / target’s armor

Interesting how you pretend the base damage formula in the game is different in PvP when ANet is so resistant to the idea of making a PvP/PvE split :p

And your formula is so funny. Try say a Settler Amulet. Result? attacker’s power = 1000. You are basically saying that settler amulet users do 0 damage in all situations except with conditions

You appeared to have completely forgotten the skill coefficient existed.

And you appear to have forgotten what a multiplication by 0 does.

Once again, I’m not saying players 1000 power is subtracted by everything. I am saying it might as well not even exist. Do you honestly think you have nearly a 50% critical chance when you see the 1000 precision? No, you subtract 1000 precision, start at 4% critical chance and calculate precision from there.

The players base stats are utterly meaningless. My warrior with 25 stacks of might can reach 3.5k power, but the game will still treat it as if I only had 2.5k power.

Nova Stiker.8396:

stof.9341:

That’s not how the game works. The page you linked even gives you all the details.

Skills do NOT have a base power. Skills have a skill coefficient. The base damage is your weapon damage range. The power is the player power stat as you can find on your char screen.

weapon damage * skill coefficient * attacker’s power / target’s armor

Which is a complete lie for PvP, weapon damage has no effect in PvP. Even the base 1,000 power shown on the screen goes completely ignored by the attackers power.

Everything is calculated in PvP as: skill coefficient * (attacker’s power -1000) / target’s armor.

Come to think of it, the 1,000 power everyone has might actually do nothing for extra damage.

If this is true, how do you explain the same skill hitting the same target in the heart of the mists under exactly the same circumstances for different amounts of damage on each strike?
Is it the heart of the mist that somehow counts as a pve zone that causes it or maybe weapon damage is still somehow factored in when calculating damage

@Nova

Stof is correct in this instance with how weapon damage is calculated. Also all pvp weapons are calculated from the stats of exotics. If you were correct skills with the same coefficients would do the same damage regardless of weapon…but this isn’t the case. This is easily tested on necromancers since lifeblast always has the same coefficient yet reads a different tooltip and does different damage depending on your mainhand weapon.

“Once again, I’m not saying players 1000 power is subtracted by everything. I am saying it might as well not even exist. Do you honestly think you have nearly a 50% critical chance when you see the 1000 precision? No, you subtract 1000 precision, start at 4% critical chance and calculate precision from there.”
is a bad example since the stats actually scale in totally different ways.

“The players base stats are utterly meaningless. My warrior with 25 stacks of might can reach 3.5k power, but the game will still treat it as if I only had 2.5k power.”
This is incorrect and can be tested easily on the golem in HotM, the use of the damage formula that all power damage in the game uses and some math.

Sigmoid.7082:

@Nova

“The players base stats are utterly meaningless. My warrior with 25 stacks of might can reach 3.5k power, but the game will still treat it as if I only had 2.5k power.”
This is incorrect and can be tested easily on the golem in HotM, the use of the damage formula that all power damage in the game uses and some math.

You can hit the golem with 0 extra power, it will match the damage from the skills tool tip.

But once again, it doesn’t add up. If you actually did have 1000 extra power, the tool tip would be saying much more.

And again, the base damage of the a weapon skill with the weapon strength doesn’t add up either unless the game is assuming the skill is already hitting an armor target.

Which… also brings up the question, what does the tool tip thinking players are hitting? If you have 1,000 power, 1,000 weapon damage and 1.0 scaling, yet, the tool tip says something around 500 damage. Does the game always assume you are hitting something with 2,000 armor?

Jesus, no wonder ArenaNet fails so hard with balancing, the way they calculate damage values is nothing short from horrific. “oh yeah, lets make sure the damage dealt to all the players is divided by 1,888, so that means all the enemies have to deal damage in the millions.”

@Nova

Actual damage is:
[weapon damage between min-max of weapons damage]*coeff*power/ Targets armour. Its why the same skill can do different amounts of damage. Depends on which number between the min and max the game rolls.

Tooltip damage is:
Average weapon damage*coeff*power/2600 (what the game uses as heavy armour)

Also i believe skills that have the following functions like Damage (8x): 1000 the game will pick a weapon damage value to preform the skill which is why those 8 hits if unmodified will do the same damage. Its why skills like Hundred Blades can be missleading since the first 8hits will all roll from the same weapon damage number but the final hit uses another…or so I believe. Makes sense and explains high roll-low roll variance.

The devs have access to a set of weapons called steady weapons where the weapons damage min=max so they can test skills based solely on their coefficents because it removes the varying weapon damage factor.

Afaik power and toughness are the only attributes that dont do a base then scale of Y + ( X*something). All other Primary and secondary attributes have some sort of base. In all it makes balancing this one type of damage difficult since its all a function of itself.

Sigmoid.7082:

@Nova

Actual damage is:
[weapon damage between min-max of weapons damage]*coeff*power/ Targets armour. Its why the same skill can do different amounts of damage. Depends on which number between the min and max the game rolls.

Tooltip damage is:
Average weapon damage*coeff*power/2600 (what the game uses as heavy armour)

Also i believe skills that have the following functions like Damage (8x): 1000 the game will pick a weapon damage value to preform the skill which is why those 8 hits if unmodified will do the same damage. Its why skills like Hundred Blades can be missleading since the first 8hits will all roll from the same weapon damage number but the final hit uses another…or so I believe. Makes sense and explains high roll-low roll variance.

The devs have access to a set of weapons called steady weapons where the weapons damage min=max so they can test skills based solely on their coefficents because it removes the varying weapon damage factor.

Afaik power and toughness are the only attributes that dont do a base then scale of Y + ( X*something). All other Primary and secondary attributes have some sort of base. In all it makes balancing this one type of damage difficult since its all a function of itself.

The design of it makes so little sense in the long run, calculating toughness vs. power will always be a problem. They might as well balance the game only using percentage changes as fine tuning toughness and power will only create a big mess.

It’s like the level scaling formula was created first, then everything was built around that.