Downed state discussion.

Downed state discussion.

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Posted by: Zanryu.3417

Zanryu.3417

There are a few things that bother me with how certain things interact with downed state, and I’m sure others have things that bother them as well. This thread is here so you can post and discuss what you feel should be changed and how it should be changed.

1. Stealth: Currently, if you kill someone while in stealth they remain in stealth and have a free chance to heal or get a res without you even knowing if you killed them. I believe stealth should end on down. It doesn’t make any sense that it remains up when you enter downed state, it seems like it would be difficult to maintain something like that if you’re fighting for your life. Note that I’m not talking about entering stealth from outside sources of it or from the Thief’s downed state skill.

2. Mist Form stomps: Mist form locks you out of all skills, it’s meant to be a defensive option. I think it shouldn’t allow you to stomp someone while in this form, as that’s an offensive action and mist form is supposed to grant invulnerability at the cost of being able to cause damage in any way aside from the Soothing Wave trait.

If you agree or disagree let me know, and post things you dislike or would like to change about current downed state or how certain things interact with it.

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Posted by: Mash Hog.5672

Mash Hog.5672

Lots of classes have invulnerability/stability stomps.

I don’t know where you got your idea that skills should be offensive or defensive.
Mist form is a utility skill made to be utilized.

Gasmic > Mic Gazzy
Leader of [GASM] #ELEtism
(Retired) Commander [2500+ tPvP Matches Won]

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Posted by: Zanryu.3417

Zanryu.3417

Lots of classes have invulnerability/stability stomps.

I don’t know where you got your idea that skills should be offensive or defensive.
Mist form is a utility skill made to be utilized.

The difference between those skills and Mist Form is that while invulnerable they are unable to do anything due to casting or being locked out of movement and skills, the exception being Engineer’s Elixer S, which functions like Mist Form in that they have mobility and are locked out of skills but can still stomp. I’d say that should be changed as well.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Mesmer’s Distortion, however that one actually takes a degree of timing like using a short Stability or dodgerolling mid-stomp to stop the downed person from knocking you down/pulling you/dazing you/fearing you.

(edited by Zanryu.3417)

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Posted by: Xaos.3257

Xaos.3257

Mist form originally didn’t locked you out from your utilities, it was designed for defense but for offense too ( if you had an offensive util ). After the constant QQ that made the ele the class that it is today, mist form being nerfed to the ground. So elementalist can’t stomp safely except with armor of earth ( which if i’m not mistaken the stability of it can be corrupted or removed ) Obsidian flesh IF you have a focus and Mist form. If you can’t stomp in mist form then is better do delete this skill and give us an endure pain like skill, at least we will have our spells. And i’m pretty sure that mist form is not a problem when thieves can teleport stomp you, and stealth stomp you or mesmer portal stomp you as an example.

Elementalist – Necromancer

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Posted by: NevirSayDie.6235

NevirSayDie.6235

Downed state is just useless in my opinion , shouldn’t even exist in PvP . It’s a complete joke , why you have to be half dead to start using the most annoying skills ever made ? Good luck on stomping rangers,thieves,engis . I wouldnt even call it a downed state , it’s a troll state.

Thieves in downed state are elusive, just like when they’re up. Rangers have a strong downed state but nothing that blind/stability/invulnerability won’t fix. Engineers have two cc skills, but the timers are the same as every other profession’s downed skills, i.e. if you let the engineer get to his knockback, it’s the same amount of time as letting a warrior get to his vengeance.

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Posted by: Nanashi.5704

Nanashi.5704

Thieves in downed state are elusive,

No they’re not. The only time they’re “elusive” is when they get killed by a non channeled ranged attack the delivers the killing blow right after they go into stealth giving them time to use their teleport and stack the stealth. If you’re getting tricked by a visible thief in the down state you’re doing something wrong.

Downed state is just useless in my opinion , shouldn’t even exist in PvP . It’s a complete joke , why you have to be half dead to start using the most annoying skills ever made ? Good luck on stomping rangers,thieves,engis . I wouldnt even call it a downed state , it’s a troll state.

This says it all. Downed state was and is a horrible idea for pvp. It takes longer to actually kill someone outright in the down state than it does while they’re on there feet. Unless its a group of people attacking the downed target an enemy can rez faster than the dps. The skills that CC a target are easy to dodge, and the stealth skills are just an annoyance.
I’m sure Anet thought adding the downed state into the pvp system would be a neat way to create teamwork by presenting the choice of rezing someone or trying to stop the person stomping or some such nonsense. But when you consider how you can stomp while being stealthed/mist formed/distorted/elixir s’d/stability/simply standing behind a minion/pet it really defeats the whole point of trying to stop the stomper.
It’s just a giant nuisance that unfortunately will probably never go away.

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Posted by: NevirSayDie.6235

NevirSayDie.6235

Thieves in downed state are elusive,

No they’re not. The only time they’re “elusive” is when they get killed by a non channeled ranged attack the delivers the killing blow right after they go into stealth giving them time to use their teleport and stack the stealth. If you’re getting tricked by a visible thief in the down state you’re doing something wrong.

Right, I was actually attempting to state that the thief downed state was not too strong/frustrating, and that it fit with their playstyle.

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Posted by: Ryld.1340

Ryld.1340

Lots of classes have invulnerability/stability stomps.

I don’t know where you got your idea that skills should be offensive or defensive.
Mist form is a utility skill made to be utilized.

The difference between those skills and Mist Form is that while invulnerable they are unable to do anything due to casting or being locked out of movement and skills, the exception being Engineer’s Elixer S, which functions like Mist Form in that they have mobility and are locked out of skills but can still stomp. I’d say that should be changed as well.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Mesmer’s Distortion, however that one actually takes a degree of timing like using a short Stability or dodgerolling mid-stomp to stop the downed person from knocking you down/pulling you/dazing you/fearing you.

A point to add onto here is that you can’t stomp while in Mist Form. You have to start it, then Mist Form. The same goes for rezzing. Can’t rez while Mist Form, but can start it then Mist Form.

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Posted by: Wolf.5816

Wolf.5816

I like downed state. I just think some are better than others. Perhaps if they shaved some of the Rangers superior downed state mechanics and distributed it amongs the other lacking Professions. For example: Engineer.

Unless of course the intent of the Engineer downed state is to die faster and quickly respawn. In which case I would propose making Booby Trap Do increased damage but kills the Engineer flat out.

Veteran of The Mists & Professional Engineer
Dingo King-Hound King-Coyoti King-Thylacine King-Hyena King

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Posted by: ryston.7640

ryston.7640

what?! downed state has problems?!

sorry but downed state was a good idea on paper that sucked in practice and made people quit pvp. its complete lack of balancing effort really just underlined that pvp was an after thought and anets insistance that it stay in the game despite all criticism bespeaks hubris

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Posted by: jmatb.6307

jmatb.6307

The only thing that is ridiculous about downed state is Ranger 3. Everything else is pretty good. If they got rid of Ranger pet rez and replaced it with a pet frenzy type buff that makes the pet hit really hard for 5 seconds or something that would be cool.

I think the more cheesy utility rezes are more of a problem than how downed state works.

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Posted by: clint.5681

clint.5681

Downstate needs to leave pvp/WvW

Rangir Dangir – Ranger | Mr. Ragr- Guardian| Sneak Stab – Thief | Mr. Ragir- Warrior
[url=https://] [/url]

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Posted by: Gorni.1764

Gorni.1764

Downed state itself is a terrible mechanic in PvP. Even good players can rarely win a 2v1 or at least kill one enemy (not only down him). There’s also the problem that in group fights every single player is rezzed from downed state if one single enemy gets killed which turns the tide in every group-fight. Another problem is that people won’t finish you near guarded points when you don’t have an effective self-rezz and there are no allys nearby that could rezz you; so it will take ages before you can respawn.

On the topic itself: I agree that stealth should be removed when you enter downed-state. It’s annoying when you don’t know if the enemy is downed or not. In this context Shadow Refuge seems to be the only problem though.

@mist-form: Since the nerf the only real use for this spell is actually finishing and rezzing downed players. Besides that I’d never pick that spell. I don’t even take it for bunkering because it locks you out of your spells and has a high CD. Using a 75s CD for finishing an enemy seems fine to me. Stability practically does the same … do you want’ to remove stability because you can easily finish people with it? Many classes have far more acces to stability than an ele can use mist-form.

Rachat – Elementalist (Abbadon’s Mouth)

(edited by Gorni.1764)

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Posted by: jmatb.6307

jmatb.6307

Guys suggestions like these just don’t make any sense.

If there are specific skills that you’re having trouble with, then that would be far more productive to suggest changes to than eliminating a big dynamic of the game just because you don’t like it.

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Posted by: clint.5681

clint.5681

Guys suggestions like these just don’t make any sense.

If there are specific skills that you’re having trouble with, then that would be far more productive to suggest changes to than eliminating a big dynamic of the game just because you don’t like it.

They make a ton of sense. It doesnt make sense for someone to still be alive after you kill them or for a whole group of people to res if one person dies. Or the fact that its quicker to res than it is to get stomped.

Rangir Dangir – Ranger | Mr. Ragr- Guardian| Sneak Stab – Thief | Mr. Ragir- Warrior
[url=https://] [/url]

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Posted by: Hekmatyar.8725

Hekmatyar.8725

A stomp every 75seconds is so very OP.

Nellmar/Arezzem

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Posted by: Chicago Jack.5647

Chicago Jack.5647

Guys suggestions like these just don’t make any sense.

If there are specific skills that you’re having trouble with, then that would be far more productive to suggest changes to than eliminating a big dynamic of the game just because you don’t like it.

^This.

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Posted by: SuperHaze.4210

SuperHaze.4210

The problem with downstate is that it makes it almost impossible to win a 1v2. There are times where I outplay two people, but when I down one, they can still put out damage and CC me with their #2 skill. If I try to stomp, then the other will keep dpsing me. If I’m cleaving while the other is attempting to rez, more likely than not my CC’s are on cooldown cause it takes everything when going 1v2 and they’ll rez them enough that they can dps me a while longer (or in the ranger’s case, Lick Wounds + teammate rez will guarantee a rez). If I disengage, then it’s a guaranteed rez and they’ll come and finish me off.

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Posted by: scerevisiae.1972

scerevisiae.1972

Downed state is an anti-feature — it adds nothing to PVP but detracts from it in numerous ways. It creates new balance problems, breaks the natural flow of combat, and just looks and feels wrong.

It is no exaggeration to say it’s the worst PVP “feature” I’ve experienced in 20+ years of PVP gaming.

downed state is bad for PVP

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Posted by: Jae.5138

Jae.5138

i only hate down state in wvw to be honest

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Posted by: SuperHaze.4210

SuperHaze.4210

Maybe when downed you can only try to heal yourself and get rezzed by teammates or have the option of dying and going back to your spawn point (which would make it a strategical decision if your home point is being assaulted)

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Posted by: ryston.7640

ryston.7640

Guys suggestions like these just don’t make any sense.

If there are specific skills that you’re having trouble with, then that would be far more productive to suggest changes to than eliminating a big dynamic of the game just because you don’t like it.

you’re right, kittening like I do isn’t likely to get the devs attention and yield the desired result. A child who politely and calmly asks for things gets more than one who throws tantrums.

But I’m pretty convinced these devs are too innept and under staffed to ever give me anything enjoyable, so I use them as verbal punching bags instead. I get more pleasure mocking their poor decisions than I’m likely to ever get from playing their game.

I note, my disgruntlement is not explicitly with the pvp devs, but with whomever launched thinking pvp was at a servicible place and the refused to give that team resources they badly needed to catch up.

The only thing ive really got against the pvp devs would be that this game in absolutely no way resembles gw1, and they obviously didnt win any fights about developing pvp mechanics or traits, even seperately from pve…

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Posted by: Nanashi.5704

Nanashi.5704

you’re right, kittening like I do isn’t likely to get the devs attention and yield the desired result. A child who politely and calmly asks for things gets more than one who throws tantrums.

Not here, the more people cry and whine about things they think are OP the more Anet nerfs things that dont actually need it.
but to stay on topic, downed state still needs to go.

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Posted by: alemfi.5107

alemfi.5107

All this hate on downed state… personally I think it adds depth to the combat, in how you handle the various classes downed states.

The only ones I really get annoyed with (as a necromancer) are the thief and elementalist downed states, and sometimes mesmer, however the last one is mostly due to personal skill level, because, aside from cleaving the bodies, which is mitigated a bit by their repositioning, their is not too much counterplay that can be done on mistform and the shadow step.

As a whole though the downed state adds depth to the combat. Certain cheese situations can occur of course ( say 4+ warrior party all with war banner ), however for the most part, requiring players to address downed play (whether by bringing stability for stomps, tools for ressing, aoe cleave) is, in my opinion, good for gw2 pvp.

When ground-targetted bone minion explosions become a thing, I will change this signature.- 2013
http://twitch.tv/alemfi/

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Posted by: scerevisiae.1972

scerevisiae.1972

All this hate on downed state… personally I think it adds depth to the combat, in how you handle the various classes downed states.

As I said, it introduces a host of balance issues without really adding anything to the combat.

It reduces depth because of the requirement to stop fighting in order to stomp, the need to devote at least 1 utility and/or trait slot to a stability/blind/stealth skill in order to stomp, and then there’s the ludicrous rally mechanics, which only serves to kitten people right off.

downed state is bad for PVP

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Posted by: Valentin.2073

Valentin.2073

downed state is amazing. people who are complaining about it are just too lazy to find ways to deal with it.

PVP Ranger: Prince Valentine, PVP Warrior: Prince of Hearts I, and PVP Mesmer: Prince Valentine I

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Posted by: Scoobaniec.9561

Scoobaniec.9561

I agree. Pro noob system called downed state should be removed from pvp completely, worse pvp feature i have seen in any pvp game.

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Posted by: scerevisiae.1972

scerevisiae.1972

downed state is amazing. people who are complaining about it are just too lazy to find ways to deal with it.

way to miss the point… “dealing with it” is not the problem…. for anyone.

the problem is most people hate it or recognise that its inclusion results has far more negative effects than positive.

when a “feature” is widely disliked and mechanically detracts from the gameplay more than it adds, why keep it? especially when sPVP has had plenty of high-profile features thrown at it and it’s still regarded so poorly.

downed state is bad for PVP

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Posted by: Valentin.2073

Valentin.2073

anet will have to redesign a lot of class skills to get downstate deleted from this game. i am not complaining about it and i’m sure some players have the same thoughts. there’s only a small percentage of players who read the forums anyway.

you’re making it sound like “everbody” dislikes it.

PVP Ranger: Prince Valentine, PVP Warrior: Prince of Hearts I, and PVP Mesmer: Prince Valentine I

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Posted by: jmatb.6307

jmatb.6307

I agree. Pro noob system called downed state should be removed from pvp completely, worse pvp feature i have seen in any pvp game.

Your sig is funny, guess you didn’t get the memo about immob stacking a month ago.

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Posted by: Scoobaniec.9561

Scoobaniec.9561

I agree. Pro noob system called downed state should be removed from pvp completely, worse pvp feature i have seen in any pvp game.

Your sig is funny, guess you didn’t get the memo about immob stacking a month ago.

It is also funny that to use a immo skill i gotta immo first from different source..Inst it? It wasnt about immo stacking btw and thats completely different thing.