Guild Wars 2

Two ideas I’ve seen tossed about on here that I want to repeat.

I like the idea of a 20 second timer that starts when the player is first downed but with a minimum (maybe like 7 seconds?)

I also like the idea of timers increasing as the match goes on. Maybe timers could start at 5 seconds at the beginning of the match and slowly creep up to 20 seconds for deaths later in the match. This should reduce some of the “snowball” effect people have complained about with the individual timers and make late game more important (allowing teams to either make a comeback or put the opponent away).

On another note, would this be something that could be adjusted on custom servers once they’re implemented?

sweet, i like the timer and like it even better at 15 sec

Yes the rez timer starts as soon as a player is downed. That seems like a better idea

I personally love the individual spawn timer. It keeps people from playing recklessly (or it should) since you have a static 15 seconds you’ll be out of the fight added to the down time of being, well, downed.

+1 for me.

Edit: With the old system, I’ve seen where you kill a guy near Henge, then by the time he rezzes and is back in the fight, you’ve barely decapped the point because he happened to release at the same time the wave spawn happened. Not sure why people like the wave system, but I’m open to be swayed.

Syeria.4812:

Two ideas I’ve seen tossed about on here that I want to repeat.

I like the idea of a 20 second timer that starts when the player is first downed but with a minimum (maybe like 7 seconds?)

I really think something like this is as ideal as it gets. It stops the “strategic dying” of the spawn wave system and provides a disincentive for letting someone bleed out as long as possible.

Great that you listen and actually attempts to adapt/change it.

But the fact still stands that it will not be 15 seconds, as it was not 20 seconds before. With this new system you will just never ever stomp a player unless they are either being ressed or are on a neutral point that you want.

TL:DR with the removal of set spawn waves you removed the need to stomp someone (either if it was to prevent them from getting a short ress timer or to give them a long one). Now every one will just run around letting people bleed to death (seen this happen from hot-joins up to paid tournaments more often than not, and way more than before the change).
So thanks for the decrease from 30-40 sec ress timers to 25-35 sec

P.S. with the new decrease to downed player health it is near impossible to get a stomp down in a competitive team fight. People get up before you are even half through the stomp, I’ve even seen players being ressed before a “quickness stomp”..which is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. D.S.

Oh, and one more thing (even though you are not allowed to add more after the PS/DS), I really like how this system forces you to hang around your base waiting for people to ress so you can actually go togheter, so that you do not get solo rofl-stomped by the enemies still at the point. Guess we can add another ~10 seconds to the ress timer there. Awesome!
This last issue is especially what breaks the game in the tournaments, since the team that did win the team fight can have their players “trickle/stream” in safely, to reinforce the point and push even further towards your point, but it forces the team that lost the team fight to hang around, waiting for people to spawn, since they (being the team attacking/in a dis-advantage) can’t move to the field of battle alone.
I think that the more popular way to describe this new system is to say “First team to win a teamfight gets the snowball effect on their side” and that will pretty much decide any match between semi-even teams. Awesome x2!

felivear.1536:

I personally love the individual spawn timer. It keeps people from playing recklessly (or it should) since you have a static 15 seconds you’ll be out of the fight added to the down time of being, well, downed.

Maybe it will impact decisions at the true upper echelon of competition, where those players are actually making those kinds of determinations. But for now, with the other problems we’re seeing in game, I think it just makes it sting that much more when you get swallowed by the zerg, or will have even less playtime against that premade (as if anyone wants that right? lol).

Though it may not sound like it, I actually do like the personal respawn timer for the longevity of the game. I just think it will push more people away right now before its utility is actually realized down the road when other fundamental issues are addressed.

Thank you for the quick change, it is appreciated.

I’m still not sure whether 15 seconds may be too long as a static timer. An interesting idea someone brought up in another thread was a static 20 second timer, but it begins counting down when you enter down state. It worthy of testing imo.

Coopers.4376:

Thank you for the quick change, it is appreciated.

I’m still not sure whether 15 seconds may be too long as a static timer. An interesting idea someone brought up in another thread was a static 20 second timer, but it begins counting down when you enter down state. It worthy of testing imo.

Or just bring back the old system, that worked just fine. I consider myself being a more or less frequent visitor to the forums, and I have yet to actually see any thread/serious posts where people complain about the ress timers/spawn waves.

Sure I have seen a few about the downed state, but that was more about the actual mechanism of having people keep fighting in the downed state, not the timers.

Still gonna call this as a huge failure, you should never repair what is not broken.

It was broken in the sense that players could constantly stream in to a point, thereby preventing capture. This was most noticeable on foefire when using both a guardian and staff ele on mid point.

Sorry Coopers, I tried to reply to you but for some reason the “system” screwed my post up, and mashed what I wanted to say into one wall of text and then copied it a couple of times into an even bigger wall of text. Gonna take it as a sign that the “system” doesn’t want me to have an opinion about it and just play the broken game or move on to one that actually works xD

Hint taken!

In all seriousness tho, the old system was not broken in any way, and there was only in the 8vs8 hot-joins where people could ress and “stream in” to a point.. This new system just gets more and more broken the higher up the skill ladder you get. We are at a point where the very first team fight basically decides the outcome of the whole match, in paid tournaments. Yay for that, some way to promote e-sports.

How about a game mode where if you kill someone they actually stay dead unless someone resurrects them? Some sort of… match… of… deaths? Maybe involving teams.

Hrm.

If the swap is made back to wave timers please implement a minimum death time. Something like LoL Dominion has (had?), spawn waves every 10 sec but you have to be down for at least 10 (aka if I die 1 second before a wave i skip that wave and spawn 11 sec later or if I die 1 second after a wave I am down for 19). That way there is waves and a min down time.

15 sec? Ok, thats sound a bit better, while im not sure about it.. i will give it a try and then come back. Anyway its much better then 20 sec.

I still hate the downed system in pvp. It can stay in pve for all i care, but in PvP it brings too many issues.

1. rangers in 1 on 1 situation when both players get downed straight out win, maybe a warrior has a chance against them.
2. people who wont stay down, players that i down, then they get a lucky rez because they tagged someone a few seconds ago, and bam they heal almost to half health, oh boy what fun
3. why the hell do people heal as much as they do when they rally, to be honest im getting the feeling that its more effective to rez allies from downed than trying to keep them alive

So yea at the moment downed state is the only thing that prevents me from trully enjoying pvp, as long as that is in the game the ressurection system will always be akward in some way.

Now we need to adjust the revive rating, like 25% less.And will perfect ^^

Thank for the quick response to this John , I think something like respawn timers may take a few attempts to get it right but dropping it down to 15 seconds is for sure a step in the right direction.

Already a change based on community reactions. Super props to Anet and especially Jon who’s working while a lot of the office is away for thanksgiving!

lovin that reaction time.

wow

thanks for listening Jonathan and acting on it so quickly

this is the kind of turnaround we like

if there are still issues with the timer, that means you would continue to look at it, which is great to hear

I also really hate the downed state in PVP, and especially in WVW, where its zerg-promoting, numbers-over-skill effect is borderline game-breaking.

Downed is a great system for PVE but it really does not belong in PVP. It feels wrong as a player, looks wrong as a spectator, introduce a suite of balance issues & edge cases that the game simply doesn’t need more of, and overall detracts from the core combat.

I think 20 seconds was short….. you did not give it the time needed for testing.

The burst zerg kids tactics game that we have now is not what will bring top MMO pvpers in and staying.

/shrug middle ground I guess better then before by a little bit

I logged in just to reply to this thread.

The inherent problem with the original wave spawn mechanic was that it rewarded the same volume of work with differing volumes of reward. It should never be, in a competitive environment, that I am able to kill you and you get a 1 second or instant resurrection timer while you kill me and I obtain a 19 to 20 second timer. It is abundantly clear, to me, that all things considered equal, the wave spawn mechanic supported what is happening right now with individual timers. It just so happens that it is more obvious now than before.

Previously, you waited for the appropriate time to stomp – provided you could wait. Just the act of being able to wait to stomp someone means you and your team already have the upper hand and the “snowball effect” has already begun; because you are able to stagger the stomps and, by extension, the resurrection chains you have already gained the upper hand. The same issues arise – people streaming in either intentionally or unintentionally, having to regroup and demonstrate some sort of team cohesion, or ignore what was happening and continue to complain about having to “timer” stomp people.

The only thing to change now is how obvious this is. I consider this to be fair, for the time being. We both put in comparable amounts of work and receive congruent rewards. I would have went the complete middle ground with 10 seconds (between instant resurrection and a full timer of 20 seconds).

When looking at whether or not the timer, as it is, is balanced with regards to the game as a whole, it’s important to consider the tPvP environment as it is now. I choose the 10 second standard timer not because of my love of even numbers, but on account of current area of effect spam inherent to competitive environment. If you are able to stomp, manually res. allies (i.e. not using a resurrect utility), or mitigate either of the two – you already have the upper hand. I consider stomping a luxury – do I have the survivability required to put my life on the line to stomp this person with 1000’s of damage/second in AoE spam raining down on me? Sometimes, provided the team you’re on can assist in such a venture. Do I have a comparable volume of survivability to go for a resurrect under the same conditions? Not a chance, usually – unless the team you’re on can assist in such a venture. Poison fields coupled with tremendous AoE spam make this a dangerous calculation, regardless. Pulling people off the field to aid in resurrection, thereby decreasing the amount of damage and CC flying at your opponents, is also an often costly decision (against teams who can punish such an action, that is).

Enter the resurrect utility available to some classes. With staggeringly long cool-downs, an apparent indecision if GW1 style res’ing should be present, and the current meta-game the 10 second standard/individual resurrect timer seems more fair than other options. You retain the ability to stagger stomp when available with the effect being not as strong in previous iterations of the spawn mechanic. You receive comparable rewards for comparable work. The stage for a comeback is also decreased in terms of time required to collect your team and attempt a counter.

I’m intrigued by the idea of a minimum timer with the ability to extend the timer with certain qualifications – but just because another game does, doesn’t mean it’s meant for a competitive environment (regardless of the game, and I disagreed with it then as well).

tl;dr – the spawn mechanic needs to reward players equally for the effort exerted to both down someone and either DPS them out or stomp them. How this mechanic will develop over time? Oh dear.

Syeria.4812:

Two ideas I’ve seen tossed about on here that I want to repeat.

I like the idea of a 20 second timer that starts when the player is first downed but with a minimum (maybe like 7 seconds?)

Hey! You’re stealing my idea I think people would like it, however my suggestion post seems to have been buried quickly.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Suggestion-Decreasing-Res-Timers/first#post814057

See, even noobs like myself can have a good one now and again

Basically the idea is that even a 15s static timer is going to encourage folks to keep enemies in the downed state. If you can keep them “downed” for 15s plus the 15s static timer you’ve taken them out of the fight for effectively 30 seconds. Still rewarding teams that can’t/don’t/won’t “finish” their enemies.

A decreasing timer is THE solution to any perceived problem. It’s the most “e-sportish” solution, giving the highest reward to teams that coordinate quick stomps and finish their opponents without mercy. A 15s timer does the opposite.

gwawer.9805:

Yes the rez timer starts as soon as a player is downed. That seems like a better idea

Seether.7285:

I really think something like this is as ideal as it gets. It stops the “strategic dying” of the spawn wave system and provides a disincentive for letting someone bleed out as long as possible.

See, an army of converts Thanks for the support guys!

A timer that starts when a player first goes down sounds good on paper, but doesn’t that give an additional unfair advantage to those classes that have much better initial stomp avoidance than others? Effective Res Timers for the various classes may need to be looked at more closely in a system like this, which is of course not necessarily a bad thing (even if they remain unbalanced it isn’t necessarily bad, just a consideration).

EDIT – I also wanted to add that it always seemed like being savvy of the current game time and when you stomp someone to maximize their rez timer felt like a skill-based mechanic in PvP. If you could maximize it, you would reap appropriate benefits, and it wasn’t something that came naturally. I’d be concerned about removing too many of such mechanics, as they add the type of spice that allows a top-tier player to really shine over the public, increasing the potential skill ceiling that much more.

Not that static waves are the best solution, just another thing to potentially consider.

Cogbyrn.7283:

A timer that starts when a player first goes down sounds good on paper, but doesn’t that give an additional unfair advantage to those classes that have much better initial stomp avoidance than others? Effective Res Timers for the various classes may need to be looked at more closely in a system like this, which is of course not necessarily a bad thing (even if they remain unbalanced it isn’t necessarily bad, just a consideration).

You make a good point the fact some professions pretty much get insta stomped would get punished by that system where as professions that can waste alot of time for example ele’s, mesmers and thieves would be given an unfair advantage.

Cogbyrn.7283:

A timer that starts when a player first goes down sounds good on paper, but doesn’t that give an additional unfair advantage to those classes that have much better initial stomp avoidance than others? Effective Res Timers for the various classes may need to be looked at more closely in a system like this, which is of course not necessarily a bad thing (even if they remain unbalanced it isn’t necessarily bad, just a consideration).

That’s a good point as well, but it could be mitigated fairly easily. In my original suggestion thread I left an out for the developers to tweak the system.

Something like, “the res timer doesn’t start decreasing until the player has been downed for 4 seconds,” would remedy that problem as only thieves can delay a stomp for longer than that (and by only a second or two).

The other option is to have the timer decrease non-linearly, i.e., the first 5 seconds of downed only reduce the res timer by 1 second, the next 5 seconds of downed decreases timer by 3 seconds, the next 5 downed seconds decreases res timer by SIX (6) seconds, etc.

Basically i’m trying to help them build a system that encourages fast/efficient stomping, cause seriously, it’s PvP, you’re supposed to KILL your enemy faster than they kill you. Not sit around and bleed them to death slowly to maximize your teams advantage. It should always be preferable to take them out of the fight completely (e.g., stomping) rather than letting them flounder on the ground. Static times only encourage NOT stomping and bleeding downed folks out, which is a bad system imo.

I feel for this system to truly work at the moment the downed system would have to be removed to but everyone on an even playing field.

15 seconds is better than 20 seconds. I am new to Guild Wars and this is a very unique feature. One of the things I despise most in PvP games especially FPS is that you have to wait a year to get back in the fight. With Maps of varying sizes this causes added frustration. Thanks ANet for listening to your customers. Now get back to programming new PvP content!

obsolete.4879:

15 seconds is better than 20 seconds. I am new to Guild Wars and this is a very unique feature. One of the things I despise most in PvP games especially FPS is that you have to wait a year to get back in the fight. With Maps of varying sizes this causes added frustration. Thanks ANet for listening to your customers. Now get back to programming new PvP content!

Another potential thought: make this a configurable option for custom arenas. That way, if people have public servers, they can drop the rez timer down low (0-5 seconds) to allow people to leap back into the fray, more death-match style. Heck, if you allowed configurable point systems as well, you could almost make a deathmatch server by ratcheting up kill points, and nullifying cap points. The only bummer would be a static spawn point .

At the very least, allowing this to be tweaked would provide the competitive scene with a standard, while allowing pubs to play how they want to play (long or short timers).

Also, an exponential rez timer reduction is a good idea to help mitigate differences in stomp times. It’s an interesting idea, regardless.

This is the logical first step before adding a suicide button. Many of the early complaints were that if you added a suicide button people would just release right before the wave timer.
Also, many of the complaints of the bleeding out time + rez time can be quelled with a suicide button.

felivear.1536:

This is the logical first step before adding a suicide button. Many of the early complaints were that if you added a suicide button people would just release right before the wave timer.
Also, many of the complaints of the bleeding out time + rez time can be quelled with a suicide button.

This seems like the best solution to me. A 5th skill that sends you strait to the defeated state, or the option to release and respawn directly from the downed state.

The idea of res timers that scale down based on how long you were in downed state is a creative idea but I don’t think it’s the best solution.

1. It directly rewards players for hanging around and being a nuisance by throwing rocks at people for 20 seconds. I don’t think that’s something that deserves a special reward (outside of whatever you accomplish), and I don’t think teams should be punished for not stomping immediately in the middle of a big fight. The natural course of action for a downed player with no hope of being revived/rallying should be to respawn and rejoin the fight as soon as possible, because fighting standing up is more fun than sitting down.

2. If a player lives for more than the max respawn timer they are back in a position where the other team should just let them slowly bleed out and it’s in their best interest to die quickly but they have no way to do so. It’s the same problem that exists now. It would just happen less frequently but it would also be even more of an awkward “gaming the system” situation when it did happen.

3. New players probably wouldn’t intuitively understand why their spawn timer is always different.

This is a step in the right direction. Thank you. 20sec is definitely too long.

this is like the scene in Avatar “Eywah has heard you!”
and all this time i thought we were just talking to a tree,
its nice to know our voices are being heard.
faith in our devs is rising again ;-)

i though about two ideas…

1) my idea… add 10sec wave respawn, with 10sec “debuff” after death, when player cant be ressed by wave respawn… it would cause to minimum 10sec respawn and maximum 20sec respawn… combnation of old and new model

2) friend told me LoL uses this… add a wave respawn of 20sec independant for both teams, timer will start when someone die in that team, so the first death is heavy punished, but if someone else die, he will share wave of the first one… after ress, next wave countdown of 20sec begins again after next death in that team

esport? Don’t you kinda have to balance the classes properly first?