Guild Wars 2

I ran into lots of situations where I was outnumbered by two to one on my eles and could have won those fights if downstate does not exist. So I kill one guy and he’s in downstate and I heal up a bit. At this point to stop the damage from the downstate guy shooting at me or prevent him from coming back to life, I need to stomp him. But I can’t do that because I still have another guy beating on me so I need to kill him too. It puts me at a disadvantage because the downstate guy can still do good damage to me while I am fighting his friend. I am pretty sure a lot of these fights, I can kill them both if I didn’t have to worry about the downstate guy.

I really like 1v2 fights because I love a good challenge. In this game, downstate just ruin these experiences. Why can’t it be like wow or something where if you try really hard, you can still overcome the odds without having to worry about a dead guy that you just killed.

Seether.7285:

Another one of these posts, it definitely deserved its own thread. Why worry about learning to play better when its easier to just complain for changes?

Surprisingly, threads like these are able to float around untouched while real threads asking for discussion on real issues get deleted without prior notice.

“Try really hard” in your statement = outgear your opponent.

So glad that this game doesn’t allow that, and so glad that it’s so different from WoW. Thank God.

An elementalist can save mist form when he is downing an enemy. I’ve done it before.

However, I do agree that downed state is making it hard to win unbalanced fights. More numbers practically means a much more greater chance of winning despite skill.

@Ayde. I’ve seen people win against others while being outgeared by them. World of Warcraft is not the only example of this either.

Hello. There are no dedicated healers in this game. If you have a full team focus on 1 enemy he will go down fast. Downed state turns everyone into a healer that can revive him. It doesn’t matter what other games you are used to, in gw2 everyone has second health bar. Enemies are not dead when their 1st health bar goes to 0. There are many strategies to downed state and there are skills you can bring to help you finish a downed player. It is up to you to prepare for it.

Down state is not bad and actually a refreshing design, however, some stuff needs to go like:

1. Mesmers’ and Thieves’ downstate…compared to others it takes ages to kill them

2. The damage output, which is significant, for someone who is downed and supposedly out of the fight

3. Warrior’s getting up (forgot its name) is also a bad joke. Especially when you are outnumbered you most likely won’t be able to finish the warrior off in time and then he adds 15 more seconds of pain

4. Finishing someone from stealth…it is such a joke. Play a necro who has usually no access to stability (grandmaster talent in a little bit borked line which also adds only 3 sec stability anyway) nor stealth and is rather squishy.

aydenunited.5729:

“Try really hard” in your statement = outgear your opponent.

So glad that this game doesn’t allow that, and so glad that it’s so different from WoW. Thank God.

who said anything about outgearing my opponents. We’re in spvp forum, whatever argument anyone says here should not refer to gear but plain skills only. Unless you only do wvw then you’re in the wrong section.

I don’t mind the downstate idea. I think it’s a great idea but they need to make it so you can’t do anything while downed and that the only way is having someone rez you in the course of 30 sec or some short timer or you die.

well unless they can spam interrupts on you, you can let him beat at you while downing the other guy , get some toughness and vit is all im gonna say also if you are roaming alone with an ele , your doing it wrong imo

Luigio.3265:

well unless they can spam interrupts on you, you can let him beat at you while downing the other guy , get some toughness and vit is all im gonna say also if you are roaming alone with an ele , your doing it wrong imo

Pray tell me, how can I give my pets toughness (if I run with one) as a necro? Because if I do not kill him and he kills my pet he is back up.

cant quote for some reason

@ asmodean , if you are playing a pet necro in pvp , your also doing it wrong, might be viable later if/when minion ai doesnt suck kittens

also your best and only viable pets dont need toughness since they are just gonna be spawned to blow up :hint:

anyways, my point was, downed state is fine, although i will agree that some proffesion’s downed state abilities could use a tweaking to bring them all in line with all proffs

You didn’t kill him, you downed him I don’t know why arenanet chose the downed state, especially in PvP. Don’t care really, sometimes you can 1v2 even with the downed state. Try your best mate.

Is it harder to 1v2 because of this feature? Most of the time, yeah. It’s more then possible to do though, heck it’s plenty possible to perform 1vX period in this game. I’d argue it’s easier to 1vX in this game then in other MMO varieties I’ve played.

Learn how to deal with the downed state – often you can use the downed person as bait and take advantage of it. Let them be the mindless victim that exposes themselves to damage instead of yourself.

You can always continue to damage the downed person with normal attacks or cc push away the other person to finish the one you downed. Downed state only problem is mesmers and thiefs. Warriors deal more damage but can only stop one person with hammer, if they go into Vengance, chances are they will die before killing anything or killing anything won’t save them from vengance state, if a warrior goes vengance and downs 3 people he will die killing one and all the others will auto rally. A Guardian once downed can be dealt with easier than anything as once he uses his #2 he is gone, his #3 skill will only save him if he is alone or getting help from someone. So on it goes with other classes. Thiefs are annoying but they can only buy themselves so much time as their attacks while downed hit for like wut ? 30 damage They can stay there shooting those knifes at you all day and as long as you interrupt their #4 they will die. Mesmers are the only real problem imo.

I’ll support any anti-downed state thread I come across.

1. Because rezzing somebody in 2-3 seconds I just took 20 seconds to kill is pretty stupid.

2. Not everybody has constant interrupt abilities to stop people from rezzing.

3. It makes it impossible for smaller groups to achieve anything against larger Zergs in WvW, even if they kill 2-3 times their own numbers. People just rezz and keep going.

4. It makes it very hard to break a Siege. All it takes is a few seconds and someone is back up on their feet, continuing to smash your gate. Really, what’s the best a defender can hope to achieve is such situations?

5. It kills skill. It makes 2v1s much harder than they are in any other MMO, let alone 3v1s. This undermines a lot of satsifaction you get from PvP. If winning 1v1 is the best you can reasonably hope for then PvP is going to start feeling awfully bland.

6. Downed states are really unbalanced among classes. Yes, you could try and balance them but why fix a broken system? Keep in in PvE, remove it from PvP.

7. People abuse it in tPvP to stop you from respawning. That’s right, your enemies prefer to keep you downed rather than see you resurrect. And without a suicide option there’s nothing you can do about it.

8. En contraire to what some people say, it does the exact opposite of encouraging tactics. It promotes zerging because thanks to downed state, numbers > all.
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What they should do is this:

1. Make it so that friendly rezzing is interrupted by direct damage, just like the self-healing is.

2. Make it impossible to rezz defeated players while “in combat”.

3. Rework downed abilities. Give each profession 1 ability to interrupt and 1 ability to commit suicide in a styleful way. That way you address the most pressing concerns without gutting the “feature”.

A lot of professions have some way of stomping in a 1v2 situation, usually with invuln + stability. Thief can stealth-stomp easily, mist form works for eles, invuln + stability for basically every other class.

Well maybe thieves have it easy but wasting a skill that’s supposed to get you out of burst or help you survive isn’t a good solution. If you’re a warrior for example, you can either save up endure pain (4 sec invulnerability, 90 sec cooldown), frenzy (4 sec quickness, 60 sec cooldown), or dolyak signet (8s stability, 60 sec cooldown) for it. Of course if you’re using endure pain you probably need it to not die, same idea with dolyak signet, and if you have haste you probably already used it for your burst.

And even then a thief or mesmer can escape you easily wasting endure pain and frenzy. A decently timed #2 from any of the classes (except poor ele) can stop your frenzy stomp too.

So pretty much only the thief has a way to stomp safely without using up important high CD abilities, making them best at surviving while downed and finishing off other downed. Great.

Down state is horrible in any pvp environment…was a awesome idea for pve…but for pvp? its just silly…whats even more funny is when u kill someone…still have 5-8k hp and he takes u down in down state ( usually a thief or mesmer and sometimes necro who atm take way too long to finish while just about every other class is a lot easier)

necro takes too long to finish? After elementalist its the easiest class to kill

anyway downed state is quite killing pvp because no matter how good you are you cant kill two guys even you are simply better because of this downed mode

Luigio.3265:

cant quote for some reason

@ asmodean , if you are playing a pet necro in pvp , your also doing it wrong, might be viable later if/when minion ai doesnt suck kittens

also your best and only viable pets dont need toughness since they are just gonna be spawned to blow up :hint:

anyways, my point was, downed state is fine, although i will agree that some proffesion’s downed state abilities could use a tweaking to bring them all in line with all proffs

I use only the golem and while bugged his charge is often quite nice for my cond. specced necro.

However, that doesn’t change what I wrote about minions because the aoe is strong enough to bring the golem’s health down and then you have a ticking time bomb, as said above, next to you.

Ayestes.1273:

Is it harder to 1v2 because of this feature? Most of the time, yeah. It’s more then possible to do though, heck it’s plenty possible to perform 1vX period in this game. I’d argue it’s easier to 1vX in this game then in other MMO varieties I’ve played.

Learn how to deal with the downed state – often you can use the downed person as bait and take advantage of it. Let them be the mindless victim that exposes themselves to damage instead of yourself.

Yup, that is nice in spvp: load a downed player up with bleeds and then spread the crap with epidemic as soon as the fight shifts or someone tries to revive him. Makes me warm and fuzzy inside each and every time.

Rally is also really horrible. Stomp one guy, rally 3. Or letting yourself get put into a downed state, because you know a stomp is incoming and you can rally off it. Hey free condition removal and small heal.

Even though it’s a pve example this shows how silly rally can be: when you fight two mobs and one is almost dead, but you let yourself go down so you can take a breather and let cooldowns come back up before rallying off the near dead mob, because if you killed the mob before going down the other one would just finish you off.

Both mechanics greatly favor the team with more people. As if being outnumbered wasn’t a big enough disadvantage already.

Us Mesmers need a rehaul on skill 3. Other than that, finishing us is kitten easy. There’s a giant arrow above the real mesmer’s head.

As for the down mechanic, I just stack up conditions on the downed player. They can’t see their conditions once downed and often end up killing themselves thanks to my confusions.
I can also stealth (while leaving behind a clone) and finish off a player. If all else fails, Time Warp > Decoy > Finish.

Yup, that is nice in spvp: load a downed player up with bleeds and then spread the crap with epidemic as soon as the fight shifts or someone tries to revive him. Makes me warm and fuzzy inside each and every time.

I know right. I wonder why i dont see more Warrior who have these kind of idea’s. I’d save my 100b for when somebody is ressing and get 2 kills at once. I personally enjoyed dropping Dragon Tooths on downed people on my ele.

Anyway i think the biggest problem is that killing 1 downed player rallies every ally in the area. This is even worse because some classes have horrible downed abilities and are even nothing short of a free kill when downed.

I won against 2 players on my Mesmer the other day, in a very close tournament match. Luckily for me, I also managed to finish them thanks to my Phantasms and the ability to stealth.

A very proud and rare moment considering the professions I was fighting (a thief and warrior).

Vadren.9045:

Rally is also really horrible. Stomp one guy, rally 3.

Learn to deal with downed state then? If you are letting 3 opponents rally off of one downed guy then you have problems with how you are fighting. Notably, you should probably be reviving someone.

Ayestes.1273:

Vadren.9045:

Rally is also really horrible. Stomp one guy, rally 3.

Learn to deal with downed state then? If you are letting 3 opponents rally off of one downed guy then you have problems with how you are fighting. Notably, you should probably be reviving someone.

Why are you so defensive about this? The situation I was thinking of I was the one who got the stomp and rallied 3 players and I couldn’t tell you what they did to all go down. However I don’t think it’s fair that I just happened to get a stomp at the end of a lost 3vs2 that almost instantly turned into a 4vs1.

Obviously many people don’t find the current implementation of downed state and rally fun. What makes the current implementation so fun for you that you don’t want it to change? Can you at least understand how it exponentially increases the disadvantage facing a smaller force in pvp and why some people think this is bad?

With equal skill levels among you and your chars are appropriately built a 2 v 1 scenario should be a no brainier win for the 2 guys unless you’re chuck Norris or something

I won against 2 players on my Mesmer the other day, in a very close tournament match. Luckily for me, I also managed to finish them thanks to my Phantasms and the ability to stealth.

A very proud and rare moment considering the professions I was fighting (a thief and warrior).

Yes but you’re playing a mesmer….nuff said. Try doing the same with any other class other than mesmer.

soysauce.1246:

I won against 2 players on my Mesmer the other day, in a very close tournament match. Luckily for me, I also managed to finish them thanks to my Phantasms and the ability to stealth.

A very proud and rare moment considering the professions I was fighting (a thief and warrior).

Yes but you’re playing a mesmer….nuff said. Try doing the same with any other class other than mesmer.

Have you won a 2v1 playing as a mesmer?

TC mentioned WoW in his original post, and asked why this game can’t be like that. The only reason why a player of equal skill level could take on more than one player and still win is because:

1) You out-geared your opponent, and thankfully that doesn’t exist in GW2 sPvP or tPvP.

2) You were counter-comped, i.e. two squishy rogues versus one prot paladin, and thankfully, also, this game has a much more rounded curve on what counters what due to viable variation in several builds.

The point is, there’s a good reason why you shouldn’t be able to take on multiple good players, because it’s an indication of true imbalance in the PvP structure.

Vadren.9045:

Ayestes.1273:

Vadren.9045:

Rally is also really horrible. Stomp one guy, rally 3.

Learn to deal with downed state then? If you are letting 3 opponents rally off of one downed guy then you have problems with how you are fighting. Notably, you should probably be reviving someone.

Why are you so defensive about this? The situation I was thinking of I was the one who got the stomp and rallied 3 players and I couldn’t tell you what they did to all go down. However I don’t think it’s fair that I just happened to get a stomp at the end of a lost 3vs2 that almost instantly turned into a 4vs1.

Obviously many people don’t find the current implementation of downed state and rally fun. What makes the current implementation so fun for you that you don’t want it to change? Can you at least understand how it exponentially increases the disadvantage facing a smaller force in pvp and why some people think this is bad?

I’m defensive because I enjoy the downed state as it is. I understand that others don’t enjoy it, but I want others to understand that I enjoy it as well. I used to hate the downed state as well in the beta, but once I had some tPvP under my belt I fell in love with the strategy around it.

I flat out disagree with many of the reasons why people dislike the downed state as well. It’s not impossible to win a 1v2. To me it increases the level in which skill has to do with the outcome of a fight, because it requires manipulation of different “phases” of combat. Other games to me had different mechanics (Primary Healers) that made winning outnumbered fights even more difficult then what the downed state is now, and to me it doesn’t even produce that much of a factor. I’ve pulled off frequent 1v2 and 2v5 fights. I don’t even consider myself that good. It’s just a simple understanding of the downed state as it is.

I mean, frankly I think many of the complainers will change their mind eventually. Not everyone, and perhaps not you. I respect other people’s opinions, I just hate it when other people won’t open up their mind to how it is now instead of simply hating it for absurd reasons.

Asmodean.5820:

Down state is not bad and actually a refreshing design, however, some stuff needs to go like:

1. Mesmers’ and Thieves’ downstate…compared to others it takes ages to kill them

Playing my mesmer all it buys is a few seconds… some get distracted in the meantime, thats the only way it pays off. Still an easy stomp.

@Ayestes:

I would have to agree that multiple people rallying off of one kill is excessive. ME and a friend were doing a 4v2 and actually ended up downing 2 of them and almost a third when I finally went down. After blowing my knockback and my ally not being able to get close enough to down someone, they downed me and got all their allys back. They were completely unhindered by the fight in the end, didn’t lose anyone or anything despite being completely outplayed.

I understand that there was more I could of done to of lived against them and more my ally could of done to of downed someone faster, however, to have 3 people rally from one kill is excessive. It ought to just be one rally for one defeat in FIFO order.

Other than that, I also love down state and what it brings to the table. I would just like to see that rally part change.

In my opinion, judging balance over a Xv1 scenario completely undermines the concept of team based pvp. Next time, just try to find where your team mates are and follow one of them or ask them to follow you.
Also, try and put some distance between your remaining opponent and the downed one. It won’t hurt to dodge away from where the point your trying to capture/defend in order to get some space.

Diage.6451:

@Ayestes:

I would have to agree that multiple people rallying off of one kill is excessive. ME and a friend were doing a 4v2 and actually ended up downing 2 of them and almost a third when I finally went down. After blowing my knockback and my ally not being able to get close enough to down someone, they downed me and got all their allys back. They were completely unhindered by the fight in the end, didn’t lose anyone or anything despite being completely outplayed.

I understand that there was more I could of done to of lived against them and more my ally could of done to of downed someone faster, however, to have 3 people rally from one kill is excessive. It ought to just be one rally for one defeat in FIFO order.

Other than that, I also love down state and what it brings to the table. I would just like to see that rally part change.

That’s an understandable argument, because you’ve actually specified something in particular you dislike and how you’d solve it. I’m fine with the way it is, but I can’t see it removing the strategy I so much enjoy surrounding it with this change.

Flat out removal of the downed state would leave so many issues in the wake it would be catastrophic.

soysauce.1246:

I ran into lots of situations where I was outnumbered by two to one on my eles and could have won those fights if downstate does not exist. So I kill one guy and he’s in downstate and I heal up a bit. At this point to stop the damage from the downstate guy shooting at me or prevent him from coming back to life, I need to stomp him. But I can’t do that because I still have another guy beating on me so I need to kill him too. It puts me at a disadvantage because the downstate guy can still do good damage to me while I am fighting his friend. I am pretty sure a lot of these fights, I can kill them both if I didn’t have to worry about the downstate guy.

I really like 1v2 fights because I love a good challenge. In this game, downstate just ruin these experiences. Why can’t it be like wow or something where if you try really hard, you can still overcome the odds without having to worry about a dead guy that you just killed.

Isn’t this the nature of pvp.

The fact that you’re at a disadvantage is unfair but you’re looking for a challenge.

“I am so good I should be able to win 1v2 but its unfair when I have already dropped someone to down state and they are killing me.”

hahahaha

Ayestes.1273:

I’m defensive because I enjoy the downed state as it is. I understand that others don’t enjoy it, but I want others to understand that I enjoy it as well. I used to hate the downed state as well in the beta, but once I had some tPvP under my belt I fell in love with the strategy around it.

I flat out disagree with many of the reasons why people dislike the downed state as well. It’s not impossible to win a 1v2. To me it increases the level in which skill has to do with the outcome of a fight, because it requires manipulation of different “phases” of combat. Other games to me had different mechanics (Primary Healers) that made winning outnumbered fights even more difficult then what the downed state is now, and to me it doesn’t even produce that much of a factor. I’ve pulled off frequent 1v2 and 2v5 fights. I don’t even consider myself that good. It’s just a simple understanding of the downed state as it is.

I mean, frankly I think many of the complainers will change their mind eventually. Not everyone, and perhaps not you. I respect other people’s opinions, I just hate it when other people won’t open up their mind to how it is now instead of simply hating it for absurd reasons.

I like the idea of the downed state, and I’m ok with the idea of rally, but I find the implementations flawed.

I don’t mind downed players having abilities, doing damage and continuing to contribute to the fight, but mostly a downed player is either stomped instantly (or as close to instantly as possible depending on their class), or res’d asap. And usually it depends on which team has more people to which happens.

It also creates another axis of balance among the classes that so far seems to have seen little attention from arena net. Some classes are simply better at getting a stomp/res or surviving during downed state.

Rally just has a lot of quirky issues from rallying off pets/mobs to rallying off the kills of an opposing player. If rally was an aoe heal for your team that prioritized, and gave extra benefit to, downed players then pretty much all the issues with it would be fixed.

Suggestions to fix improve on it are fine, I just tend to get a little annoyed at those who simply suggest flat out removing as if that would make the game better. I mean, I know there needs to be work done in particular in terms of the balance between the profession’s downed states, but that doesn’t mean I want it removed entirely. I don’t mean to pin this concept on those I’m speaking to in particular here either, but it’s something that’s been somewhat pent up for awhile and it’s probably being released in a slightly misguided fashion.

Flat out, I love the downed state..

Asmodean.5820:

Down state is not bad and actually a refreshing design, however, some stuff needs to go like:

1. Mesmers’ and Thieves’ downstate…compared to others it takes ages to kill them

2. The damage output, which is significant, for someone who is downed and supposedly out of the fight

3. Warrior’s getting up (forgot its name) is also a bad joke. Especially when you are outnumbered you most likely won’t be able to finish the warrior off in time and then he adds 15 more seconds of pain

4. Finishing someone from stealth…it is such a joke. Play a necro who has usually no access to stability (grandmaster talent in a little bit borked line which also adds only 3 sec stability anyway) nor stealth and is rather squishy.

I heavily agree with 2 and 4. I don’t understand why the downstates of mesmer/thief are so broken. If a thief can finish in stealth, I should be able to finish in mist form.

Downed stat atm is just unfair to some classes (I’m looking at eles, yes I do play one, and I know they are reworking it, but atm, so bad).

In a 1 v 2 situation on my ele, I will widdle away at the weakest foe, kill him then try to finish him like this:

1: (dagger/dagger) switch to lightning, walk past him so his friend is right behind me, the use updraft (back toward the downed guy. That puts the other fellow on the ground for half of the downed animation and a small distance away, I’ve also poped my saved stability (Armour of Earth) and I can finish the first guy without taking too much damage.

2: If my stability is on cd the I will do the same, (updraft → start finish) and the moment I’m interrupted I use cleansing fire to get straight back up, switch to earth and earthquake to knockdown that other guy, then start the finish again (unfortunately a warrior will vengeance in that time). If a warrior has vengeance, pop swiftness and kite both till the warrior dies.

scepter/dagger, I’ll drop a dragons tooth on the downed guy and smash some earth 1’s (bleed stacks) onto his face and just ignore him, if hes a good player he will try to heal while I’m occupied, those bleeds will buy me some time to wait for any cd I need to use to finish him. I will also try to get a churning earth off where possible and dodge over to him (evasive arcana, and dodge so that I will be near him at the end) to interrupt his heal.

If his friend trys to res him, dragons tooth (if in fire) then k/d, blowback. The dragons tooth and the kd / bb will hit around the same time, doing a bit of damage to the downed guy making more work for the other to res him.

Remember, if you are fast enough, you can teleport behind the guy your downing to get out of range of an interrupt. And if you are really fast it is possible to use this to dodge a warriors downed 2 and finish a teleporting thief.

Again, as mention above, start finish → mist form. You are invulnerable to damage (not conditions) and cant be interrupted.

As downing is such an important part of the fight I will usually save armour of earth for that (stability) and when using mist form I will save that instead of armour of earth.

I hate downed state as it is in spvp. It is just FAR too much. It would be fine if it were much more simple. You should not be able to do ANY damage.. at all. you should have one interupt/CC skill on a 8 sec CD, one heal ability, and an option to respawn(when it becomes available). This gives your team a chance to revive you, or a chance to revive yourself if no one decides to finish you. Your effect on the actual fighting will be minimal once you are downed, which is how it should be, until you are back in the fight(revived)

The downed state is what will keep GW2’s PvP from ever becoming greatly unbalanced. People cry about how OP thieves are, but 2 equally skilled players of any class will be able to defeat a single thief. Even the best bunker guardian can be taken down by 2 competent players, and that’s how it should be.

If you greatly outplay your opponents, you can win a 2 or even 3 vs 1. But if your opponents have even a little skill, it’s not gonna happen. If you lost a 2 vs 1, it means you weren’t so much better than them that you deserved the kill.

People still dont understand. The downstate is part of the game , imbalanced as it is, the issue of not winning 1v2 or x versus y , is ….. the RALLY SYSTEM.

If you can get ure teammate up without having to physically rez (2.8 second rez time to full vs 3 second stomp time imbalances not included***) , means that even if one of ure teammate is down, the game allows you to still keep going at zero cost for defense.

Consequences is what fighting is about , GW2 is like having a UFC championship, but if the opponent breaks ure arm, u can call a time out for a doctor to morphine numb u and keep fighting…. for free. ZERO consequence.

Also conquest mode is for carebears, please bring back PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER.. or at least that option.