Guild Wars 2

So, I have a question about this particular statement that we hear from many people. They say “the game has only been out 6 months”. They make that statement as if the PvP portion began development on the day the game launched.

With the market being so volatile today with people quickly jumping ship from one game to the next, wouldn’t specific things being in at launch be vital to the PvP community?

So, I post this to say this: there is a game coming out that is just now entering open beta. They are already announcing a $100k tournament. I won’t say the name of the game because my post is not about that game, it’s about this one. With this game touted as an e-sport, we’ve instead been strung along for months waiting for basic PvP features, let alone e-sport ones, meanwhile other games are blazing out of the gate balls-to-the-wall trying to get e-sport status.

Now, I know some of you will inevitably say “but this game is an MMO, it’s much more difficult to make”. Well, technically you are right, but the game is fine, it’s only the PvP part that is really lacking. There are devs designated specifically for this game mode, so how is it different? If you say because they have to check balance changes and feature changes with other departments, then what happened to them proclaiming the amazingness of their PvP system that segregated the game modes so that they wouldn’t have to worry about that stuff?

Anyway, what do you all think about this? Are we still giving them a pass for omitting basic features for SPvP at launch, meanwhile other games are doing everything within their power to be e-sport ready out of the gate?

It is definately something grows organically, and probably requires the pvp of the game to be something people do popularly, and has alot of semi casual players. Who might be interested in top play. true casuals dont give a care.

The fact is we can’t do anything about it. It is what it is. The features were not in at launch and now we’re waiting for them. They’re coming and they’ll be implemented the coming months. They do not want to give a timeline because that can create a backlash when they need to push things.

I wish we could make them go faster but I do think they’re doing the best they can. It still is a company with budget and time restrictions. It also has a pve and a Wvw section so not all 300 people are working on pvp and they shouldn’t.

As for the tournament prize thing. Gw1 had big prize pools so expect them to be even bigger in gw2. But do you want them to give a figure now? If they do that they’ll pull in many people and many of those will be dissapointed. You can make the comparison with the lack of features and the esport boasting before launch.

Give constructive criticsm, give ideas, evaluate the features they’re implementing and wait.

Custom arenas will give the community a starting base to get some prized tournaments going. This will provide another pool of info on how this would work as an esport.

I do think Anet is doing everything they can to push their ‘esport’ side. We just can’t see it. They made one mistake and that was boasting the ‘esport’ part and thinking the playerbase would be happy with the basic infrastructure for the first 6months.

Wait for the features. Evaluate/change the things that need to be changed. Get the pvp side alive with advertising, pull casuals in. Then drop Esport-Tournament-100.000 dollars in one sentence and don’t mess it up. Then we’ll be set for a nice future.

Anyway, that’s my opinion. :p

I found a game with a $100k tournament, and if it’s the one you’re referencing, then it can throw money at a tournament right out of the gate because there’s no balancing involved. Everyone seems to have the same weapon by default (with just a few weapons in the game, period?), moves the same speed, and jumps the same height.

If you want to release a game with complexity, it’s going to need time to develop a meta, balance, interest, teams, a competitive landscape, etc. Especially if said game isn’t just a new engine on an old popular game.

ANet’s mistake was telling people their game was going to be an e-sport, because everyone wanted to believe it would be an e-sport right at release. There’s simply no way. Even if it had every feature it needed to be an e-sport, it would require months.

You can spit out a game where you put everyone into a carbon copy of a single type of thing, make some maps with terrain, and hold a competitive 3v3. The strategy shifts from complexity of builds to executing teamwork and personal play given the constraints placed upon the prototype.

The argument becomes: can a game with MMO-style complexity become an e-sport, given how that complexity affects every aspect of the game (bar of entry for both players and spectators, time to develop the meta, balance requirements, etc.)?

Cogbyrn.7283:

I found a game with a $100k tournament, and if it’s the one you’re referencing, then it can throw money at a tournament right out of the gate because there’s no balancing involved. Everyone seems to have the same weapon by default (with just a few weapons in the game, period?), moves the same speed, and jumps the same height.

If you want to release a game with complexity, it’s going to need time to develop a meta, balance, interest, teams, a competitive landscape, etc. Especially if said game isn’t just a new engine on an old popular game.

ANet’s mistake was telling people their game was going to be an e-sport, because everyone wanted to believe it would be an e-sport right at release. There’s simply no way. Even if it had every feature it needed to be an e-sport, it would require months.

You can spit out a game where you put everyone into a carbon copy of a single type of thing, make some maps with terrain, and hold a competitive 3v3. The strategy shifts from complexity of builds to executing teamwork and personal play given the constraints placed upon the prototype.

The argument becomes: can a game with MMO-style complexity become an e-sport, given how that complexity affects every aspect of the game (bar of entry for both players and spectators, time to develop the meta, balance requirements, etc.)?

ShootMania?

Edit: I’ll be playing the open beta in feb. Was a huge UT/Quake, arena shooter person so this is going to be a blast.

Defektive.7283:

ShootMania?

Edit: I’ll be playing the open beta in feb. Was a huge UT/Quake, arena shooter person so this is going to be a blast.

That’s the title I found. I was avoiding the name because the OP was avoiding names, for reasons I have yet to discover.

I’m not saying the game won’t be fun. I’m considering dabbling myself. I just feel like a juxtaposition of ShootMania and GW2 makes the differences pretty clear, and raises a different question.

Yes, can be done.Look at fighting game like Persona 4,Blazblue,etc.That is the real pvp game with all feature for been e-sport right from the day 1.

For clarification it’s Smite.

felivear.1536:

For clarification it’s Smite.

imo DOTA games are boring.

Defektive.7283:

felivear.1536:

For clarification it’s Smite.

imo DOTA games are boring.

Not relevant to the topic though. I also don’t like them, doesn’t change the fact that e-sports are being developed by companies that are actually driven for the game to…you know…become an e-sport.

Also, this game might change my mind though because it’s not point and click. It’s 3rd person (which is what we are playing now).

felivear.1536:

For clarification it’s Smite.

Maybe I didn’t play enough, but I don’t remember that game being particularly balanced. I suppose the balance would exist in the form of both teams having the availability to do the exact same thing, including choosing the same heroes and the same item builds on said heroes.

Either way, I’m not sure a development company throwing a chunk of money at a game to host a tournament makes it an e-sport. It might attract some attention, but it doesn’t solidify that game’s place among third-party tournaments that will present their own separate prize pools for players of that game.

Well GW2 wasnt balanced at launch i think, those kind of things takes time and looks like they want to be an ESport game while we take our time till then, i mean i know throwing money at a game to host a tournament dont make it an E-sport but i think they are trying way harder than we do to make it happens arent they? so far iv been trying games while waiting for GW2 PvP Updates and getting bored in GW2 Because of my Playtime and lack of PvP community in such hours, so i always think “Why cant i play GW2 like a MOBA”, not exactly like a moba arena but the way its competitive and how easy is to log in w/e time and do Solo Rankeds without w8ing…. to me it would be awesome, sadly the more i play the more i do realize that GW2 is more oriented for PvE/WvW than Tpvp, so it gonna take time till Gw2 becomes an ESport, the only thing i wonder about is “its gonna be too late till then?” but well i already bought this so….ill w8 till march.

Gonna try out Smite meanwhile. lol

On a random note, SMITE is a great and skill based game. If you struggle to control action MMOs this probably isn’t for you, but there is always playing something crazy simple like Ymir or Anubis (though Anubis is a slipper slope).

SMITE, League of Legends, and DotA2 are all the same game beating the same dead horse and the reason they have an eSports “community” is because they are free to play and because they were built specifically for tournament play in mind. Some of the most competitive eSports games were never developed specifically for tournament play and their success didn’t happen over night. Starcraft and Counter Strike were originally just awesome titles to play and now you can watch the GSL or CS tournaments all over the globe; it took time though.

My point is, quit comparing an MMO (this is what it is…) to games developed completely for tournaments. Oh and $100k is nothing and as they have literally no sponsors this would immediately spell the death of this game if the tournament fails, which is quite possible because SMITE is the most garbage game I have ever played.

Also wow is a fairly successful esport, and wasnt intended. Far as i know the only mmo to get good esport recognition.

daydream.2938:

Also wow is a fairly successful esport, and wasnt intended. Far as i know the only mmo to get good esport recognition.

Dont bet on it
One of the huge mistakes they made , is by balancing all classes the around the DPS meters in order to balance PvE+PvP is the same time .
So the classes with the best offensive-defensive cds , have huge advantages in PvP
(played 8 years , and still they are following the silly Cata path)

IS A Net still working to make this game an E sport?
Is it possible like is there enough players in SPvP to make it happen?

Bishop.5938:

IS A Net still working to make this game an E sport?
Is it possible like is there enough players in SPvP to make it happen?

Yes they are, according to themselves.

It’s not as much about the players, as it is about the community. Where there is an audience, there is prestige to attain. With prestige comes fame. And as long as there is fame, the players will come all by themselves.

To be 100% honest.

With the way they have been patching and “balancing” on top of not listening to a lot of the community (The valid concerns not “OMFG I DIED NERF THEM”).

I doubt this game will ever be an e sport…

Edit: I forgot to mention the EXTREME drop off in population.

‘E-sports can’t be accomplished fast’ nor can it be created using a top-down approach.

I started playing dota-LoL and WoW about 8 years ago..I remember some games coming out,making a big entrance and then die slowly.I get a feeling that theres a gamers community that is tired of the games i mention before but they just cant find a place to stay.To be honest i think that the right time to hit is when the game is up…In the start you draw a lot of players and you are making a lot of money which must be spent immediately in evolving your existing game,as soon as you setle down and start enjoying success (and money ofc) you loose people.People want more,everyday want more and if you cant give them they will look for the next game.
So yes esports happens at the beggining or its very difficult afterwards

Too Frisky.9165:

SMITE, League of Legends, and DotA2 are all the same game beating the same dead horse and the reason they have an eSports “community” is because they are free to play and because they were built specifically for tournament play in mind. Some of the most competitive eSports games were never developed specifically for tournament play and their success didn’t happen over night. Starcraft and Counter Strike were originally just awesome titles to play and now you can watch the GSL or CS tournaments all over the globe; it took time though.

My point is, quit comparing an MMO (this is what it is…) to games developed completely for tournaments. Oh and $100k is nothing and as they have literally no sponsors this would immediately spell the death of this game if the tournament fails, which is quite possible because SMITE is the most garbage game I have ever played.

uh gw2 was developed specifically with and for tournaments lol

Too Frisky.9165:

My point is, quit comparing an MMO (this is what it is…) to games developed completely for tournaments. Oh and $100k is nothing and as they have literally no sponsors this would immediately spell the death of this game if the tournament fails, which is quite possible because SMITE is the most garbage game I have ever played.

Anet is the one claiming that GW2 will resemble what we see in other Esports. Most of the sane community here has been calling BS for months.

Also, Smite destroys GW2 in terms of viewership and number of PvP teams and players, so if you are going to criticize its viability as an Esport then spvp in GW2 should rank even lower.

If by some miracle all of the basic competitive features get in to sPvP, its not realistic to expect an esport overnight. There would still probably need to be a season 1 or equivalent which means at least a year on top of the current development period.

Are players really going to take spvp seriously after what could be as long as 2 years after release?

When you add in the box price + ticket fee + private server fee how are they going to even remotely come close to the viewership and interest that even Smite has generated, let alone LoL or Starcraft?

GW2 has already made its millions by selling a pve game. They will probably eventually throw a bone to the pvp crowd, but the last 6 months of development have not proven to us that spvp and the whole esport thing are anything more than an after thought or side project in Anet’s big picture.

Why build an esport when you can sell gems.

This is a interesting thread and I have a good counter-argument. E-sports can be formed quickly it has happened time to time. But people running the tournaments are more attracted to the games. They want to bring these games to their tournaments for our sake so we have something cool and awesome to watch.

Why Guild Wars 2 is not attracting IPL, or MLG, or IEM? IEM for e.g is full on games, they have more than enough events and are going to more than likely remove one. MLG, is full. They have SC2, LoL, SSF4, and I think UMvC3. And before MLG gets a new game, they said they want Dota 2 or CS:GO. IPL is the only available huge tournament, and spots are being filled by SMITE ( I think that’s what the OP was referring to), and ShootMania. ESL said they were interested, but that was more than 3 months ago.

It is not Anet’s job to go out of their way to contact these tournaments, they just only need to go out of their way to make it interesting to observe and watch, and then these tournaments will want Guild Wars 2 there or even feel obligated that it HAS to be there.

So far I think they are doing a swell job especially when you consider it an MMO. I don’t recall any MMO that was an esport with one year.

This game would never succeed as an E-Sport.
Its very simple, there is too much knockdown and control.
E-Sport is about player vs player skill, and team skill in a flowing combat enviroment.
every 2 seconds an Ele is knocking you down, there is no skill in this when eles just kd and disrupt you so you cant even play the game cause your skills are constantly on cooldown.
sory to say but GW1 has a better chance at E-Sport cause the combat in that game is flowing.
wars have bulls on a 20 sec timer, kd and disruption are extremely guarded in that game making it skill based. the war needs to have the kd off cd, the team needs to pressure to reduce hp and the spike needs to be co-ordinated cause monk/wars are not easy targets to kill.
GW2 just spam kd till other team is dead and throw up all boons no skill needed.

also Y do you think so many people left after 3 months, they hit level cap and went strait to pvp where they got so overly controled they simply quit.

Jacobin.8509:

Also, Smite destroys GW2 in terms of viewership and number of PvP teams and players,

Please cite your sources and provide data.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Jacobin.8509:

Also, Smite destroys GW2 in terms of viewership and number of PvP teams and players,

Please cite your sources and provide data.

to be fair, smite has 3 times the viewers on twitch already.

Defektive.7283:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Jacobin.8509:

Also, Smite destroys GW2 in terms of viewership and number of PvP teams and players,

Please cite your sources and provide data.

to be fair, smite has 3 times the viewers on twitch already.

That may be, but I want at least one person around here to be able to provide some semblance of evidence to support their claims.

I bet it’s going to be something like “Have you seen the Mists during primetime? It’s like, empty.”

Go look on twitch at virtually any time, its really not that hard to figure out.

Compare a queue time in paid GW2 tournaments to queue times for arranged team matches in Smite.

Please provide me with your sources and data that show GW2 is closer to an esport than Smite is.

Jacobin.8509:

Go look on twitch at virtually any time, its really not that hard to figure out.

Compare a queue time in paid GW2 tournaments to queue times for arranged team matches in Smite.

Please provide me with your sources and data that show GW2 is closer to an esport than Smite is.

I didn’t imagine you’d cliche-forum-poster as hard as you just did. I’m flabbergasted. I didn’t even claim you were wrong, I was just looking for sources, and unsurprisingly, the population claim is purely anecdotal.

Why would you ask someone who never actually made a claim to prove something? That’s just babytown frolicks.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Jacobin.8509:

Go look on twitch at virtually any time, its really not that hard to figure out.

Compare a queue time in paid GW2 tournaments to queue times for arranged team matches in Smite.

Please provide me with your sources and data that show GW2 is closer to an esport than Smite is.

I didn’t imagine you’d cliche-forum-poster as hard as you just did. I’m flabbergasted. I didn’t even claim you were wrong, I was just looking for sources, and unsurprisingly, the population claim is purely anecdotal.

Why would you ask someone who never actually made a claim to prove something? That’s just babytown frolicks.

I didn’t want to interfere with this post but, some people are just arrogant. Cogbyrn the fact that Smite is holding a 100k$ tournament shows that the game is more popular to the pvp community. The Fact that its getting picked up as e sport means its closer than gw2 will most likely ever be.

The Fact that the SPVP population died 2 months after release. When you can hop into HoTM and count the people with your 2 hands shows you that Spvp is in a bad state. Stop being a fanboi and ignorant. If you like gw2 for what it is than by all means more power to you. Just don’t to try and pick on people….

Look at it this way, no MMO has ever been an esport and thats because they arent that fun to watch, they lack diversity and strategy that mobas, certain FPS’s and RTS’s have, and because most MMOs are split between 2 parts pve and pvp which means the company can never put enough man power and time into the pvp aspect to make it an esport. if you want to play an esport game then play one that already is or is 100% working its way towards it gw2 will not be an esport no matter how much anet and you guys want it to be.

ANET would have to do what Final Fantasy 14 is doing and fully re release the game with 100% emphasis on PvP and completely rework the trait system in order for it to even be slightly enjoyable to watch. the trait system how it is right now there are 2 kinds of traits 75% being completely useless and boring for pvp and 25% being the obvious choice. with this you will never get the enjoyment that LoL, SC2 and DOTA2 fans get when they see something completely meta changing and different during a tournament.

Do you guys really think that with a ranking system and spectator mode and private arenas are going to make tournament coordinators be like “o look! gw2 has a ranking system now they are ready to be an esport!” Yea the rankings and everything are good for the players and give a sense of pvp progression but none of the updates coming out will make this game stick out as an esport. Im not sitting here saying that gw2 is taking “too long” to become an esport im sitting here saying its flat out not going to happen and i was a very firm supporter of it for a very long time, but when it comes down to it its not possible and not because its a bad game the pvp is amazing and fun to play, but because from an outside view point there is no telling whats going on, you cant see anything but spell effects and jumping around. I will be surprised if anyone can even be an announcer for a gw2 game because that will be an impossible task on its own, and the viewers will be so confused and lost.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I didn’t imagine you’d cliche-forum-poster as hard as you just did. I’m flabbergasted. I didn’t even claim you were wrong, I was just looking for sources, and unsurprisingly, the population claim is purely anecdotal.

Why would you ask someone who never actually made a claim to prove something? That’s just babytown frolicks.

Did I claim to have proof of something?

The only people who can give you exact numbers are Anet… good luck getting an answer out of them. If you are to lazy to look at twitch then that is your problem, nothing anecdotal there just look at the number of viewers.

Also, look at queue times. The chances of playing in non-prime time hours are basically zero which means a game that apparently sold 3 million copies can’t even find 40 people to play competitively on a consistent basis. Nothing anecdotal here either.

Look the the QP leaderboard. If gives a general sense of the number of active competitive teams who play consistently and it isn’t very long.

By every measure available to the player spvp is doing poorly. The only people who claim it is doing well are the cheerleaders at Anet, a few hardcore players, and the occasional forum fanbots / apologists. Do they ever provide any specific sources or evidence that show spvp is doing well?

I get it, you must be the new self-appointed forum cop who has taken it upon yourself to decide who is right and wrong on a gaming forum. I really don’t care if you accept my facts or not. Please stop pretending that people post on here to satisfy your own personal delusions.

Are you both really so sensitive that someone merely asking for evidence for a claim bends you all out of sorts? Is it really picking on someone to request information that supports what they say?

It’s insane to me that someone could think they can say something without having to ever defend it. I don’t remember claiming GW2 was doing well with regard to competitive PvP. If you’d like, you can quote when I say that. You can also quote when I fanboy for ANet, or when I tell you that you’re wrong. By all means, do that.

Also, call out the people who claim the game is thriving. Ask them how they came to that conclusion. Challenge people. Please. There are far too many who just make unsubstantiated claims and build arguments around them.

People can have opinions (though I think they should be able to defend those as well). However, if someone claims that something is true without any support, it isn’t an insult to request they defend it. If they take offense, it’s probably a sign that they’re blowing smoke for the sake of blowing smoke.

Gw2, an esport ahhaa, it’s not even a succes as a pvp game. It’s not going to happen, ever.
I’m pretty sure all the messages “We are woking on it…” are just cheap ways to prolong the final moments of gw2 “esport spvp”, so maybe some dudes buy gems to buy tikets or buy the game for the spvp. Pve is the way, and maybe some wvw, if you are here for the esport, well, remember the good early times, when everything about gw2 spvp was true, good and sweet, and move to another game .

It’s not going to happen.

Hell, Planetside 2 is getting sponsored by MLG, one of the best known esport websites, and their players don’t even want it!
Other games aside, the game does have a nice look, but theres no true way to actually explain to the spectator what the hell is going on without some sort of names of skills being shown and such.

Cogbyrn.7283:

People can have opinions (though I think they should be able to defend those as well). However, if someone claims that something is true without any support, it isn’t an insult to request they defend it. If they take offense, it’s probably a sign that they’re blowing smoke for the sake of blowing smoke.

I have provided plenty of evidence which you conveniently ignore

Sitting around pointing your finger at everyone else when you bring nothing yourself to the table is just lame.

I don’t think GW2 is entertaining enough to watch to ever be an e-sport. The skill ceiling is two feet high and the only competitive mode is Hero Battles without heroes. (TABattles?) ArenaNet can move as slowly as they want to – I doubt anything they add in will fix this disaster.