Guild Wars 2

Kuya.6495:

Can we repost this stuff whenever one of those annoying anti-DH threads pop up?

Feel free.

Orange Logo builds:
*Both Revenants had the same builds.

Chaotic Contingency builds:
*Some lacking data for Guard and Ele.

Rank 55 Dragons and their builds:

Purple Noise:

Vikkela.7261:

So winning teams were:

Revenant : 6
Engineer : 4
Elementalist : 2
Necromancer : 2
Ranger : 3
Mesmer : 3
Guardian : 0
Warrior : 0
Thief : 0

Right?

Boy, look at all those god mode Dragon Hunters making a mockery of the game..

Color me totally shocked to find out that traps which only work against bad players.. only work against bad players.

logan.5846:

Boy, look at all those god mode Dragon Hunters making a mockery of the game..

Color me totally shocked to find out that traps which only work against bad players.. only work against bad players.

To play devil’s advocate here, I think the main compliant is that DH takes very little skill to execute on, but takes significantly more skill to counter. (no sorry dodge rolling a trap doesn’t mean you win.)

So basically if you haven’t bought the expansion, just don’t play at least not in the competitive level!?

All the old classes are using the new overpowered elite specs. GW2 has truly become pay to win and this will surely (and rightfully) aggravate a lot of players.

I have already posted in another similar thread (NA Pro League meta) that Arenanet should do something about warrior’s sustain. The nerfs to warhorn/shout base heal etc + lack of trait to give +20% boon duration really don’t feel justified in this current meta. NA Pro League at least had several thieves, but neither NA or EU Pro League has any warriors.

Deniara Devious.3948:

So basically if you haven’t bought the expansion, just don’t play at least not in the competitive level!?

All the old classes are using the new overpowered elite specs. GW2 has truly become pay to win and this will surely (and rightfully) aggravate a lot of players.

Buying expacs is no more p2w than any game that charges money to play.

You got 3 years of game out of the core purchase. If you seriously think you should be getting more than 3 years of gameplay for a mere 50 bucks you need to stop being a entitled brat.

Confirmed: DH needs a buff.

logan.5846:

Boy, look at all those god mode Dragon Hunters making a mockery of the game..

Color me totally shocked to find out that traps which only work against bad players.. only work against bad players.

Granted, I never died to a DH trap although they’re bugged – and you can say that these traps are “okay” in a 1 vs 1 scenario, or even 5 vs 5 in pvp as long as the opponents have enough counter probably – but they are really bad and unjustified in zergs.
I know “anet doesn’t balance wvw” doesn’t mean they shouldn’t.

Crinn.7864:

Deniara Devious.3948:

So basically if you haven’t bought the expansion, just don’t play at least not in the competitive level!?

All the old classes are using the new overpowered elite specs. GW2 has truly become pay to win and this will surely (and rightfully) aggravate a lot of players.

Buying expacs is no more p2w than any game that charges money to play.

You got 3 years of game out of the core purchase. If you seriously think you should be getting more than 3 years of gameplay for a mere 50 bucks you need to stop being a entitled brat.

When GW2 vanilla and GW2 HoT play side by side in competetive modes (WvW and sPvP) and HoT features is superior… it is p2w.

I wouldnt argue with you if HoT players could only play with HoT players like how most games does expansions and sure I think everyone that love GW2 and still play should buy HoT (I got the €100 version myself) but its still frickin p2w.

saturn.4810:

Confirmed: DH needs a buff.

And also a dmg nerf. Actually all the elites need some nerf to dmg, even berserker

Deniara Devious.3948:

So basically if you haven’t bought the expansion, just don’t play at least not in the competitive level!?

All the old classes are using the new overpowered elite specs. GW2 has truly become pay to win and this will surely (and rightfully) aggravate a lot of players.

I have already posted in another similar thread (NA Pro League meta) that Arenanet should do something about warrior’s sustain. The nerfs to warhorn/shout base heal etc + lack of trait to give +20% boon duration really don’t feel justified in this current meta. NA Pro League at least had several thieves, but neither NA or EU Pro League has any warriors.

Really? Can we drop this tired argument? It’s not kittening pay to win if what you’re paying for is pretty much the game itself. These elites are part of the expansion, not gem store upgrades.

But to get back on topic, I’m actually surprised to see this many marauder scrappers.

Zeghart.9841:

So you’d rather have a class with close to zero roles instead of a single important one?

That’s not what I said is it though? “Don’t you find it alarming that for nearly 3 years straight thief was mandatory on nearly all top tier teams? I’m a lot more alarmed at that and the way ANet have allowed that to happen and introduced 0 other roles or playstyles for thieves.”

I bolded the part incase you have eyesight problems.

Zeghart.9841:

Sorry, but if you feel better about Warrs and Thieves being outside the meta simply because they’ve been popular classes in the past, that’s just Schadenfreude.
Players shouldn’t be punished for the previous balance that was created by the devs.
And who says they’ll be in this state for only 2-3 months? Many of their problems aren’t superficial and could need a sizeable rework to make them viable again.

Again, not what I said, I said I’m not too bothered by some classes that have been solidly in meta for years suddenly not being in meta. I did not say I derived pleasure from it as you said by saying Schadenfreude so please save it.

“sure would love to see all classes represented equally but I’m just not bothered by classes that have spent years solidly in meta in one way or another suddenly not being meta for what will be 2-3 months(?) till the next big balance patch.”

If this persists AFTER the next big balance patch after season 1 I will be concerned but I’m not about to go off crying to high heaven about classes dropping out for a few months hopefully.

Zeghart.9841:

I think I can speak for everyone (being a longtime Necro player as well) that those situations shouldn’t repeat themselves simply because Ranger and Necro had big problems in the past. Precedents don’t make this ok, for any profession.

No, clases don’t deserve to be benched or unplayable but I didn’t see many thieves shedding a tear when almost every mesmer main in high tier switched to thief 2 years ago and stayed like that till spec patch.

Additionally I’ll highlight this incase you missed it.

apharma.3741:

@Nearlight, sure would love to see all classes represented equally

Things need balancing, no-ones gonna question that. I’m just not going to lose my kitten if a class I like/don’t like isn’t as strong for a few months. If this goes on longer, that is a problem and I will be right there with Cynz, Jana, yourself, Nearlight and everyone else saying something needs to be done about it.

Dahkeus.8243:

Really? Can we drop this tired argument? It’s not kittening pay to win if what you’re paying for is pretty much the game itself. These elites are part of the expansion, not gem store upgrades.

HoT is an upgrade for the game and it can be purchased through the gem store (not exclusively but still …). You don’t need the expansion to play PvP (or WvW or PvE). But it gives you an advantage over those who don’t have it.

nearlight.3064:

apharma.3741:

Here’s what I can gather from it.

Everyone and their mum loses it if warrior and thief aren’t represented at all. Even though we’ve spent nearly 3 years where one has nearly always had a place on every team and the other has flip flopped between stack to the roof, mandatory or token cleanse/heal bot.

Here’s hoping the next big balance patch shakes it up and we see these two classes back, maybe guard and ele can take a time out from being meta?

Or you know, we could have a “balanced” meta where every single class has one or more viable builds for all levels of play.

It’s no fun when 1 or 2 classes suck eggs and the rest are either overpowered or in a good spot.

That’s the dream, but it’s very very hard to accomplish. Successful esports like LoL, etc. don’t have that kind of balance. There will always be some champ/class out of the meta or on the bottom of it. It’s not as big of a problem in LoL because there are soooo many characters. There are only 9 classes in GW, though, which makes the gap more apparent.

Not saying there isn’t more Anet could do, balance-wise, but there will always be the classes considered the best for the meta, and the one or two that will lag behind and see little to no play at all until the meta shifts.

Also here, they need also to balance the classes around raids and PvE in general.

That makes it really hard.

Teevell.1684:

That’s the dream, but it’s very very hard to accomplish. Successful esports like LoL, etc. don’t have that kind of balance. There will always be some champ/class out of the meta or on the bottom of it. It’s not as big of a problem in LoL because there are soooo many characters. There are only 9 classes in GW, though, which makes the gap more apparent.

Not saying there isn’t more Anet could do, balance-wise, but there will always be the classes considered the best for the meta, and the one or two that will lag behind and see little to no play at all until the meta shifts.

Completely agreed about 9 professions making the gap more apparent in GW2 than in other games, and it’s only natural for different professions to perform at different levels as changes are made and the meta shifts. The problem, though, is that entire professions are failing to break into the meta, or they’re barely clinging on with a single build (or sometimes, for the sake of a single skill, like the Thief’s Shortbow 5). When we’re looking at full professions falling out of play, that means that either:

A) No builds that can be made on the profession offer enough tools that are sufficiently appealing to warrant inclusion in a competitive setting over other professions.

or

B) The profession does have tools that would merit inclusion, but these tools are hindered by other profession design flaws that are too severe to compensate for in competitive play.

If only individual builds were falling out of the meta, then that would be the equivalent of certain champions in games like LoL phasing in and out of popularity, and that’d be perfectly normal. Entire professions cycling the way they do is much more significant.

It’s a problem with both general balance and build diversity in particular. Three years into development, almost every profession is still stuck with weapons, traits, and utilities that go all but unused in serious play (including many that are unused across all game modes). Now, I can understand limiting build diversity to some extent, since trying to balance ten viable builds for each profession would be a nightmare. However, in the current state of things, a number of professions are unable to adapt whenever the meta swings away from what they do best, simply because they lack the tools to fill other roles on par with other professions. It doesn’t seem like a problem we should be having this late into the game’s life cycle, but here we are.

saturn.4810:

Also here, they need also to balance the classes around raids and PvE in general.

That makes it really hard.

Fortunately, PvE enemies and raid bosses can have their damage, HP, and timers scaled to match the overall strength of the professions at the time. PvE has been affected by the power creep amongst professions as well, so this may not be a bad thing.

Alpha version of site : http://competitivegw2.blogspot.com/

Teevell.1684:

nearlight.3064:

apharma.3741:

Here’s what I can gather from it.

Everyone and their mum loses it if warrior and thief aren’t represented at all. Even though we’ve spent nearly 3 years where one has nearly always had a place on every team and the other has flip flopped between stack to the roof, mandatory or token cleanse/heal bot.

Here’s hoping the next big balance patch shakes it up and we see these two classes back, maybe guard and ele can take a time out from being meta?

Or you know, we could have a “balanced” meta where every single class has one or more viable builds for all levels of play.

It’s no fun when 1 or 2 classes suck eggs and the rest are either overpowered or in a good spot.

That’s the dream, but it’s very very hard to accomplish. Successful esports like LoL, etc. don’t have that kind of balance. There will always be some champ/class out of the meta or on the bottom of it. It’s not as big of a problem in LoL because there are soooo many characters. There are only 9 classes in GW, though, which makes the gap more apparent.

Not saying there isn’t more Anet could do, balance-wise, but there will always be the classes considered the best for the meta, and the one or two that will lag behind and see little to no play at all until the meta shifts.

True but that’s why lol solved the imbalance issue with bans. Also they nerf and buff chsmpions also based on popularity in high ranked matches and what is banned more often than others. Here even if one class ( I correct myself 1 build) is over used in esl or pro league, it’s rarely nerfed for the sake of balance.

saturn.4810:

Also here, they need also to balance the classes around raids and PvE in general.

That makes it really hard.

They can always just balance their raids around classes. If they had something that needs mobility thief wouldnt be so bad

The biggest problem with these new elites is that 4 utilities and one ultimate are locked behind that trait. If they weren’t, then there would definitely be more builds out there without the elite trait line. You would want 4 more utilities and the ultimate even if you have to sacrifice something from another trait line, and you’re not sacrificing much. That’s the problem! By using the elite trait line, you lose almost nothing but gain 4 utilities and an ultimate to pick from.

To fix this, remove some utilities when you pick the elite trait line or make those elite utilities available without trait restriction. This will make other trait lines just as good as the elite.

Another way to fix this is to release more elites to counter balance the current elite. The regular trait lines will be phased into minor trait lines with elites determining everything. I think this is what the GW2 staff planned to do and we’re just at the point where we’ve too few elites to make this work and it’ll take a while before new elites will be released.

Morwath.9817:

Alpha version of site : http://competitivegw2.blogspot.com/

This is pretty cool! Thanks a lot for your post and website, very useful.

On a side note, I wish Anet would invest more into spectating/replay features. Watching the stream is nice, but there’s no way you can study/learn a gameplay or review a team tactics with all these sudden POV changes…

Elegie.3620:

Morwath.9817:

Alpha version of site : http://competitivegw2.blogspot.com/

This is pretty cool! Thanks a lot for your post and website, very useful.

On a side note, I wish Anet would invest more into spectating/replay features. Watching the stream is nice, but there’s no way you can study/learn a gameplay or review a team tactics with all these sudden POV changes…

Thanks you, I will try to add as many streams as possible on site so you could see whos streaming among Pro League participants (so far added Nos, Phanta, Chaithh, LordHelseth, ROM and Denshee).

Rell.8395:

The biggest problem with these new elites is that 4 utilities and one ultimate are locked behind that trait. If they weren’t, then there would definitely be more builds out there without the elite trait line. You would want 4 more utilities and the ultimate even if you have to sacrifice something from another trait line, and you’re not sacrificing much. That’s the problem! By using the elite trait line, you lose almost nothing but gain 4 utilities and an ultimate to pick from.

To fix this, remove some utilities when you pick the elite trait line or make those elite utilities available without trait restriction. This will make other trait lines just as good as the elite.

Another way to fix this is to release more elites to counter balance the current elite. The regular trait lines will be phased into minor trait lines with elites determining everything. I think this is what the GW2 staff planned to do and we’re just at the point where we’ve too few elites to make this work and it’ll take a while before new elites will be released.

I agree that this is probably a big reason why elite specs seem mandatory. They don’t come with just the usual traits, but a bunch of utilities and weapon skills are locked in there, too. So of course everyone is speccing them, they have to to access those weapons and utilities/elites. But if they were separated, I know I wouldn’t be speccing as many elite trait lines as I am now.

Teevell.1684:

Rell.8395:

The biggest problem with these new elites is that 4 utilities and one ultimate are locked behind that trait. If they weren’t, then there would definitely be more builds out there without the elite trait line. You would want 4 more utilities and the ultimate even if you have to sacrifice something from another trait line, and you’re not sacrificing much. That’s the problem! By using the elite trait line, you lose almost nothing but gain 4 utilities and an ultimate to pick from.

To fix this, remove some utilities when you pick the elite trait line or make those elite utilities available without trait restriction. This will make other trait lines just as good as the elite.

Another way to fix this is to release more elites to counter balance the current elite. The regular trait lines will be phased into minor trait lines with elites determining everything. I think this is what the GW2 staff planned to do and we’re just at the point where we’ve too few elites to make this work and it’ll take a while before new elites will be released.

I agree that this is probably a big reason why elite specs seem mandatory. They don’t come with just the usual traits, but a bunch of utilities and weapon skills are locked in there, too. So of course everyone is speccing them, they have to to access those weapons and utilities/elites. But if they were separated, I know I wouldn’t be speccing as many elite trait lines as I am now.

I really hope a-net will change that. I think elite specs should not be linked to weapons + utilities. An elite spec should be a normal trait line + a change in profession mechanics (reaper shroud instead of death shroud for necro/reaper for example). Of course, the weapon+skills would have a better synergy with the new traitline, like any weapon/skill category in the game, but not locked by it.

This will be particularly important when new elite specs come.

Silverkey.2078:

Teevell.1684:

Rell.8395:

The biggest problem with these new elites is that 4 utilities and one ultimate are locked behind that trait. If they weren’t, then there would definitely be more builds out there without the elite trait line. You would want 4 more utilities and the ultimate even if you have to sacrifice something from another trait line, and you’re not sacrificing much. That’s the problem! By using the elite trait line, you lose almost nothing but gain 4 utilities and an ultimate to pick from.

To fix this, remove some utilities when you pick the elite trait line or make those elite utilities available without trait restriction. This will make other trait lines just as good as the elite.

Another way to fix this is to release more elites to counter balance the current elite. The regular trait lines will be phased into minor trait lines with elites determining everything. I think this is what the GW2 staff planned to do and we’re just at the point where we’ve too few elites to make this work and it’ll take a while before new elites will be released.

I agree that this is probably a big reason why elite specs seem mandatory. They don’t come with just the usual traits, but a bunch of utilities and weapon skills are locked in there, too. So of course everyone is speccing them, they have to to access those weapons and utilities/elites. But if they were separated, I know I wouldn’t be speccing as many elite trait lines as I am now.

I really hope a-net will change that. I think elite specs should not be linked to weapons + utilities. An elite spec should be a normal trait line + a change in profession mechanics (reaper shroud instead of death shroud for necro/reaper for example). Of course, the weapon+skills would have a better synergy with the new traitline, like any weapon/skill category in the game, but not locked by it.

This will be particularly important when new elite specs come.

They won’t change it. It’s too much balancing work for them. Look, it takes them 6 months to balance this game once. Adding a free to use weapon like that and you can just give up on having a patch per 9 months. They work really slow.

I would love to see other Match stats besides setups:
- How many caps, decaps and lost caps each team had?
- How many deaths per player and/or team?
- How many rallies per player and/or team?
- Total difference in points of the 2-3 maps.
- etc.

I would do it, but I work all day and I didn’t even had the time to watch more than the first match until now.
I think it would help distinguish the teams performance in a way where everyone learn more about their playstyles, the strong and weak points of each team, and what to expect from each matchup.

apharma.3741:

@Cynz, I just don’t care tbh either way. Don’t you find it alarming that for nearly 3 years straight thief was mandatory on nearly all top tier teams? I’m a lot more alarmed at that and the way ANet have allowed that to happen and introduced 0 other roles or playstyles for thieves.

@Nearlight, sure would love to see all classes represented equally but I’m just not bothered by classes that have spent years solidly in meta in one way or another suddenly not being meta for what will be 2-3 months(?) till the next big balance patch. Sure if these classes hadn’t been top picks for every team for so long I’d feel different but they have for a very very long time.

Lets not forget the years of rangers and necros not being meta at all or that mesmer had to have a whole team built around it and even then spent more time running for their lives from one class than being able to play for over a year too.

Let’s balance classes based on their past performance? They were in meta for X amount of months/years -> force them into being garbage for next 3 years? Yeah that would work well~
Also what is WRONG with being in meta at all?

What really should be happening in semi good balance is that every class has at least 1 build that is in meta and equvalently viable for tournaments.

Don’t get me wrong Cynz, but you’re complaining about Thieves all day (and night) long everyday and I haven’t seen a single suggestion in your posts what should be in your opinion changed to make Thieves viable again. Just random rants all around.

Morwath.9817:

Don’t get me wrong Cynz, but you’re complaining about Thieves all day (and night) long everyday and I haven’t seen a single suggestion in your posts what should be in your opinion changed to make Thieves viable again. Just random rants all around.

check thief forums~

i have made suggestions~

if i ever dared to post anything about thieves here it would usually end up in either banns or moved to thief subforums anyway

Morwath.9817:

Don’t get me wrong Cynz, but you’re complaining about Thieves all day (and night) long everyday and I haven’t seen a single suggestion in your posts what should be in your opinion changed to make Thieves viable again. Just random rants all around.

We’ve been through this since June – all of those you see frequently on this forum (thief forum – I mixed up the tabs, sorry) (except those who hijack every thread and tell us to shut up) have made a lot of constructive suggestions. It was the following “balance patch” in september when most of us gave up, I think. still some constructive threads here and there but we know it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Jana.6831:

Morwath.9817:

Don’t get me wrong Cynz, but you’re complaining about Thieves all day (and night) long everyday and I haven’t seen a single suggestion in your posts what should be in your opinion changed to make Thieves viable again. Just random rants all around.

We’ve been through this since June – all of those you see frequently on this forum (thief forum – I mixed up the tabs, sorry) (except those who hijack every thread and tell us to shut up) have made a lot of constructive suggestions. It was the following “balance patch” in september when most of us gave up, I think. still some constructive threads here and there but we know it doesn’t really matter anyway.

^ This, so much this. I even bold-ed the parts to make it clearer.

;P Why waste your time/energy typing out a post on how to change/make things better (relatively), when it will be clearly ignored.

Don’t believe us? Click the Change Wish List in my signature. That’s just SOME that I was able to “track”. (Particularly the ones that are “Originally by:” and have a “Thread:” link)

I’m sure the same thing is happening on other class forums though.

apharma.3741:

That’s not what I said is it though?

Uh, yes it is? You said that you find more alarming the fact that they’ve been meta for so long and that Anet didn’t give them different roles or playstyles. Which means you’re more worried about them having an almost mandatory albeit limited place in the meta, than them not having a place at all (like it currently is).

My eyesight is quite fine, thanks.

apharma.3741:

Again, not what I said, I said I’m not too bothered by some classes that have been solidly in meta for years suddenly not being in meta. I did not say I derived pleasure from it

Ok? So you don’t feel good about it, but you’d be more bothered if previous non-meta professions were in the current place of War/Thief, because they already had problems in the past. Meaning you do feel better about those previous non-meta professions not being in the place of War/Thief.

apharma.3741:

No, clases don’t deserve to be benched or unplayable but I didn’t see many thieves shedding a tear when almost every mesmer main in high tier switched to thief 2 years ago and stayed like that till spec patch.

No profession player ever shed a tear for the trouble another profession is in – at best they acknowledged it. And to be honest, I don’t really see how this is relevant anyway.
It just seems like you have some sort of small grudge against Warriors and Thieves because they already had a really good place in the meta previously.

If I’m just interpreting what you’re saying in a bad way then I’m sorry, I’m honestly not doing that on purpose. They’re just the ideas your post seems to imply.

That said we both agree on the fact that they can’t stay in this state for long – but the problem is that HoT has already been out for a month now, and many of these problems were identified in the feedback of the beta, if not even before that. That feedback was ignored, and the devs have been silent. And with proleague shining a bright light on how dire the War/Thief situation is and the state of spvp because of it, an outcry is the least you can expect. This isn’t just a War/Thief problem, but about the credibility of a supposedly competitive tournament as well.

Zeghart.9841:

If I’m just interpreting what you’re saying in a bad way then I’m sorry, I’m honestly not doing that on purpose. They’re just the ideas your post seems to imply.

I think the best way to put it is I’m apathetic to the current situation of the classes, hope that clears it up.

Zeghart.9841:

That said we both agree on the fact that they can’t stay in this state for long – but the problem is that HoT has already been out for a month now, and many of these problems were identified in the feedback of the beta, if not even before that. That feedback was ignored, and the devs have been silent. And with proleague shining a bright light on how dire the War/Thief situation is and the state of spvp because of it, an outcry is the least you can expect. This isn’t just a War/Thief problem, but about the credibility of a supposedly competitive tournament as well.

True but then in beta testing people were saying that tempest was absolutely terrible, dragon hunter was poor, chronomancer was going to dominate everyone and everything and it didn’t quite play out like that. I guess I just remain hopeful that the Devs are taking the time to bring proper in depth balance patches in between leagues (so that’s bi monthly) that really will get classes that are underperforming in line and over performing aspects toned down.

Either way I think most people in the thread will also agree classes not being competitive shouldn’t continue past the next big balance patch.

I’d like to see every prof. viable but honestly, after 3 years of pure dominance, a little break for thieves is not so bad.

They will shine again for sure, but not now.

philheat.3956:

I’d like to see every prof. viable but honestly, after 3 years of pure dominance, a little break for thieves is not so bad.

They will shine again for sure, but not now.

This
And can people even count? With 5 slots per team obviously 4 classes would be left out, and I’m not even surprised or concerned when a team takes two of the same class. If there was at least another gametype I’m very certain that the builds and class choices would be very different. Also if you just “balance” around a territories gamemode then you really will mess up whenever the settings change.

I thin the most telling fact is that in EU ESL, which was notorious for no1 ever running necro, it’s suddenly one of the most played classes. ^^’

Also, thief and war clearly are a bit too weak atm.

Before nerfing everything, I’d start by buffing those 2, because buffing stuff might offer counters to things that are very strong, which would make nerfing them obsolete.

PowerBottom.5796:

I thin the most telling fact is that in EU ESL, which was notorious for no1 ever running necro, it’s suddenly one of the most played classes. ^^’

Also, thief and war clearly are a bit too weak atm.

Before nerfing everything, I’d start by buffing those 2, because buffing stuff might offer counters to things that are very strong, which would make nerfing them obsolete.

1. Lots of players jumped to necro without any prior experience. Not that it matters because, experienced or not, they all eat dirt as much.

2. It’s not that thief and war are weak, it’s that everything else is too strong. Just look at those (as annoying as possible) perma dodge thieves and you may realize that anet went overboard with the power creep. Buff them by nerfing others first.

Ara.4569:

PowerBottom.5796:

I thin the most telling fact is that in EU ESL, which was notorious for no1 ever running necro, it’s suddenly one of the most played classes. ^^’

Also, thief and war clearly are a bit too weak atm.

Before nerfing everything, I’d start by buffing those 2, because buffing stuff might offer counters to things that are very strong, which would make nerfing them obsolete.

1. Lots of players jumped to necro without any prior experience. Not that it matters because, experienced or not, they all eat dirt as much.

2. It’s not that thief and war are weak, it’s that everything else is too strong. Just look at those (as annoying as possible) perma dodge thieves and you may realize that anet went overboard with the power creep. Buff them by nerfing others first.

Its easier to buff 2 classes vs nerfing 7

Azukas.1426:

Its easier to buff 2 classes vs nerfing 7

It is both not and extremely dangerous to do so…

This is a game of roles, roles fitting rotations and teamcomps. When you got certain professions capable of being in a role, say you got your bunkers and you got your damage, there is always going to be an optimal pick.

The reason why Thief and Warrior at this moment is simply because they are not optimal for the roles they aspire. Thief is a mobile profession, previously designed with a strong 1v1 potential, but low sustain. This changed quite a lot, be it due to overloading their kit, and simply the changes the other professions recieved. The mobility was and is probably still their strongest point, but as others have shown, it is far less needed within this meta – especially where the weak points of a Thief are exploited to bigger means.

Warrior was always a weird one. It started as a DPS roamer, became a bunker, on point brawler and got back to DPS roamer for a while. It’s kit is so reliant on traits and utilities however that a slight change might just make another profession more capable of the roles they fit into.

These two professions have distinct roles, but they are far from niche. Compare it to a Necromancer for instance – why is this profession currently in the meta? It is still not as mobile as some other professions, and though sustainable, not with the highest sustain in the game. It is simple; their kit brings a niche, boon corruption, and punishment to those who do not use their kit well (condition transfers) – making it a profession that ‘can’ be swapped with another profession if the team comp desires it. Their sustain is also now good enough for most teams to pick one up and adapt the playstyle to it, making it an anti-bruiser while being a bruiser itself.

What will happen if you buff Thief and Warrior is nothing more than making these professions stronger than their current counterparts within the meta, and this is terrible. What you are doing is not creating additional roles, you are removing those who were set in a role – which is the exact treatment these two professions have recieved. In addition, it is flat out power creep – if Thief and Warrior get buffed and overpower everything, should everything be buffed again?

In order to make these professions desirable they need overhauls. They need distinct roles, niches, in order to be desirable for teams withouth making other professions obsolete. How ever, this does mean that some of the design choices from late need to be looked at and adjusted accordingly – but flat out buffing or removing weaknesses of professions is most certainly not the way to go

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Azukas.1426:

Its easier to buff 2 classes vs nerfing 7

In order to make these professions desirable they need overhauls. They need distinct roles, niches, in order to be desirable for teams withouth making other professions obsolete. How ever, this does mean that some of the design choices from late need to be looked at and adjusted accordingly – but flat out buffing or removing weaknesses of professions is most certainly not the way to go

No, we’re currentlyy in the mindless meta in which everybody is invulnerable for the majority of a fight, so can go zerker or even tanky and dish out as much damage as a zerker, so those with less invulnerabilities are going to lose. Necro has got his death shroud instead of invulnerabilities. So, I think most of the thieves and maybe warrior agree that buffing their classes wouldn’t really change anything for the better – it is in fact the 7 other classes that need a nerf.

ETA: If they’re not nerfed then look at the game again ~6 months from now and it will be endless fights without deaths, like D/D cele ele vs D/D cele ele before June/HoT.

And, what I’d like to add: I don’t really have a role in wvw and pve but I’d still like to have a place.

Morwath.9817:

Alpha version of site : http://competitivegw2.blogspot.com/

Great start.

Two suggestions to improve the site:

• Can you please disable the auto-play from the embedded videos? (No idea, if that is technically possible.)

• When clicking on each individual profession (under builds) it is currently opening a new tab.

Jana.6831:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Azukas.1426:

Its easier to buff 2 classes vs nerfing 7

In order to make these professions desirable they need overhauls. They need distinct roles, niches, in order to be desirable for teams withouth making other professions obsolete. How ever, this does mean that some of the design choices from late need to be looked at and adjusted accordingly – but flat out buffing or removing weaknesses of professions is most certainly not the way to go

No, we’re currentlyy in the mindless meta in which everybody is invulnerable for the majority of a fight, so can go zerker or even tanky and dish out as much damage as a zerker, so those with less invulnerabilities are going to lose. Necro has got his death shroud instead of invulnerabilities. So, I think most of the thieves and maybe warrior agree that buffing their classes wouldn’t really change anything for the better – it is in fact the 7 other classes that need a nerf.

ETA: If they’re not nerfed then look at the game again ~6 months from now and it will be endless fights without deaths, like D/D cele ele vs D/D cele ele before June/HoT.

And, what I’d like to add: I don’t really have a role in wvw and pve but I’d still like to have a place.

Except on what level are you referring at? Mindless spamming of your invulnerabilities will do no one good, and even if you assume it does not, it can be punished or countered.
Take the shield blocks. You can say like, “Oh you can just burst and then block”, but this kind of behavior does get punished by, currently, a Necromancer, who can and usually has the trait for unblockable marks. Suddenly your defense turns against you, and you are vulnerable to be bursted down yourself.
While there is surely a lot of mitigation, little mitigation is compete invulnerability to everything (think about DoTs going through Elixir S), and even more little is passive. If would’ve had a little more sympathy with your statement if there was a lot of passives going on, but this is, luckily, not the case.

Funny that you mention invulnerabilities by the way – I think it would be a good role for a Warrior to be a punisher to those “who dare to block”. There are traits and, sadly, a single utility that even showed somewhat of an outline for this – but Anet seems to either have forgotten about it, or do not want to encourage this kind of play.

I am however in agreement that the sustain vs defensive balance of a lot of professions has became too small… A lot of weaknesses of certain professions were resolved by the elites, not offering them a new playstyle, but a superior playstyle. Granted, even these have weaknesses, but they are so small compared to the old ones that the scaling feels off.
A lot of weapons and utilites offered both damage and sustain components, traits offered new ways to be offensive and defensive – in conjuction with the traits that already existed, or were made baseline even. Frankly, this is not even new, and was mostly shown when the trait overhaul came – what happened however is that Thief and Warrior did stay somewhat relevant due to the player behind them and the meta not being as it currently is, but it has certainly given a lot of power creep, emphasized within the release of the expansion. So for what it is worth, yes, I do agree that the other 7 professions need to be looked at, most certainly the balance in damage versus sustain.

That being said though, I also wish to see Anet create more oppertunities for roles to these professions. Both Warriors and Thieves have utilities and traitlines for unique roles within PvP, but are mostly tunneled and shaped by the previous metas, only putting an emphasis on those rather than the aspects that make them truly unique

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Except on what level are you referring at? Mindless spamming of your invulnerabilities will do no one good, and even if you assume it does not, it can be punished or countered.

At least mesmers, partly guards, eles have got passive invulnerabilities – so it’s not in their hands when to “spam them”. Oh and scrapper – constantly invulnerable.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

If would’ve had a little more sympathy with your statement if there was a lot of passives going on, but this is, luckily, not the case.

It feels differently to me To me all classes in this game have got their passive and passive and passive blocks and invulnerabilities and unfortunately I can’t switch to condi mid fight.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

So for what it is worth, yes, I do agree that the other 7 professions need to be looked at, most certainly the balance in damage versus sustain.

Yes, all classes/players should have some times in which they can be hit, otherwise it gets old very fast.
I actually had a role in wvw, which was taken away from me

I snipped pretty brutally because in the end we’re kind of on the same page, I think. There’s not much room for classes that don’t have that many passives. You can’t interrupt a passively applied block as a warrior, you can’t time when to hit with a passively applied block as a thief.

Edit: And since I don’t think that this is competitive play but just facerolling I’m arguing against plain buffing thief (and warrior). That wouldn’t really solve a thing and I don’t really want passives which would be the only “real” solution against the mindless spam of other classes.
Edit²: But alas since the next balance patch will hit ~ half a year from now the new mindless meta will have enough time to show itself and I’m curious if it really works out like I think it will.

Cynz.9437:

How many seasons will anet need to get convinced that thieves and wars need help~

Thief in every team for about 3 years and not a word from you. Now all of a sudden this is a travesty :P

Karma.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

How many seasons will anet need to get convinced that thieves and wars need help~

Thief in every team for about 3 years and not a word from you. Now all of a sudden this is a travesty :P

Karma.

Not sure about that 3 meta stuff, since 3 years ago there was no such a thing called meta. 2 Years, yeah maybe.

I mained ranger for the first few months in GW – 2 years ago.
They were pretty weak as a power ranger, which I have been (I didn’t play pvp or wvw back then though). I have had my kitten handed to me as a thief by several rangers ~1,5 years ago. Then LB was buffed and it still is in need of a nerf as the way it has been buffed was really lazy.
Point: Ranger itself is really clunky due to his pet – at least for 1,5 years now they’re doing pretty good damage wise, but their clunkyness wasn’t good for most pvp matches. They were basically a static ranged thief and that doesn’t work in a 5 vs 5 environement – doesn’t mean they were underpowered, just that their weapons and means to move fast weren’t enough.
I was still really good as a ranger in open PvE during LS1 and even dungeons.
Thief on the other hand is completely destroyed in all game modes.

baroi.3264:

Now people will start to realize that DH is not OP as they think it is. It only works with pugs. Revenant has better mobility, utility, perma quickness and good damage too.

They nerfed engis turrets beaquse they were “op” in casual pvp, why wouldnt they nerf dragonhunter?

Jana.6831:

At least mesmers, partly guards, eles have got passive invulnerabilities – so it’s not in their hands when to “spam them”. Oh and scrapper – constantly invulnerable.

You’ve said this before. In the interests of staying constructive is there any chance you can list these passive invulnerabilities, especially the ones that are not in their hands?