Guild Wars 2

What do you guys think the ele nerfs will do to the meta? IMO the ele will still be probably the strongest class (AOE, boons, healing, condi removal are all more or less in tact).

The changes suggested in the sotg are fantastic because:

1, The signet of restoration was op because it enabled an ele to heal WHILST doing all their normal damage rotation and even their water heals. By bringing this down to where it should be eles will have to chose whether they want to heal better (ether renewal) or whether they want to do more damage (signet or restoration). This is a great change.

2, RTL change – awesome. Having an ele push your far before you can get there due to rtl and then being able to get away even if its 2vs1 because rtl is off cooldown again is ridiculous and needed fixing. It is still an amazing skill, but maybe you cant spam it anymore and actually have to save it to survive.

Obviously ALOT of eles are just in easy mode right now. They are so bad they dont dodge anything they should dodge because they dont need to lol. Of course there are a small number or elite eles with skill who truely own. But the vast majority are average players competing at a high level due to an OP class.

A few tips to eles:
1, You might have to learn when to engage and when not to. You will discover that normal classes get punished for running into 3 people – so dont do it. Learn how to play tactically smart.
2, When other classes use their burst skills you might want to try and dodge them instead of just tanking everything and then healing to full with water/sig of res.
3, You might have to manage your condition removal post patch with the cleansing water change. Actually keeping an eye on when they are going to spike bleeds and things.
4, You might not be able to rush far point all game with ZERO ability for other team to punish you (you rtl in and rtl out if necessary). Instead you might actually have to think about when you do it and use your brains.

In short, it is worth eles actually learning to play well now. Thats the way it should be. You will still be number 1 I expect. But now if you suck you might get a little more punished for it.

This patch could actually change the meta for once. It is needed. I hope the changes are significant enough to change the meta around a fair bit.

zzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

eliminati still watching far point >:D

In short words…now eles have to put some effort on staying alive not just rotate skills while facerolling ppl…good eles will still be good imo…everyone else is just going to die badly…as it should be and how already is with other classes in tpvp.

The people who think these are good changes are just proving they know less than nothing about why cantrip bunkers are OP. They read “ele OP” on the forums, and jumped on the cool kid bandwagon.

Cantrip ele is OP because of (shocker of shockers) the power of their cantrips. Pray tell, what does ride the lightning have to do with the power of 4 stun breakers that remove one or more conditions and make it nearly impossible to pin down the ele with CC for burst damage?

Hint: nothing

If they wanted to make a real change to bunker eles, they would move water and earth III to master tier. That would force a choice between soothing disruption (regen + vigor on cantrip use) and cantrip mastery (20% lower cooldowns on cantrips), and between earth’s embrace (armor of earth at 50% health) and a choice of evasive arcana (cast a spell on dodge) or cleansing water (remove 1 condition when you gain or grant regen).

Move the stun breaker from cleansing fire to signet of air, and make cleansing fire a complete condition clear like warrior’s signet of stamina. It’s now a choice between condition removal or a stun breaker.

Those are real changes that would bring down the power of the cantrip bunker without destroying all of the already less than meta viable builds the way the currently announced changes would.

The cooldown on cleansing water destroys already weak glyph builds. Of course none of you know that, because all that you know about ele mechanics is “ele OP.”

Anyone who thinks that ether renewal is better healing than signet of restoration is so far beyond clueless that no one should take them seriously. They would have to cut the signet nearly in half to make a full channel of ether renewal every 18 1/2 seconds better healing than spamming low cooldown abilities with signet.

ANet, please stop listening to clueless newbs who think attunement cooldown is 15/9. They don’t understand basic game mechanics, so why would you think they are a viable source of feedback for advanced balance discussions?

There’s a lot of rangers out there in tpvp already. Prepare to see even more.

sick as in cool?

I’d like to point out that half of the OPs points currenlty apply for Ranger and thief as well, especially the disengage part…

Also I cannot dodge 4 times in a row (vs heartseeker spam for example) and I do not have godly invluns, second HP bar, godly evasion (some of which rightout ignore immobilize).

You argument is like saying “lets reduce the Necro second HP bar to 40% of the current one, they should learn how to dodge”. Or maybe have abilty evasion/invuln. applicable only once every 10 seconds, so they learn how to dodge…

By the way, these changes wont affect MY build in the least, but they will affect 80% of the current Eles.

All change are fair BUT
RTL is good as a disengage skill due to not being affected by slows
RTL is not a top mobility skill cause of the range and cooldown
Rtl change is gonna fix the disengage opness and its gonna also kill the mobility (maybe not so in small distances like spvp match_
Either split the kittening skill or even better apply the 40 sec ONLY when disengaging.
So only if you dont hit while in combat..
Also lordrosicky is really clueless about the class and i wouldnt get his opinion of how ele functions in deeper level.Ask a top ele player.They ll still say ele is op but they will at least be rational

I think the warrior needs a dps buff in PvE.
What i just wrote made as much sense as the op’s post

Caffynated.5713:

Pray tell, what does ride the lightning have to do with the power of 4 stun breakers that remove one or more conditions and make it nearly impossible to pin down the ele with CC for burst damage?

Nothing but it actually gives eles the option to disengage from fights and heal up on demand like no other class can do, if you put their op healing (And boons, and dodges and so on….) + rtl to simply get out from lost fight without being stomped and coming back in seconds full hp this makes rtl one (Not the only one for sure) of the main broken things to fix.

If you’re bad, outnumbered, lagging or whatever you just die like everyone else, running away every time you picked up the wrong fight it’s too easy and this let eles just rush in every teamfight no matter what because they can get away if needed, nerfing rtl must (First of all) not let eles disengage on demand and coming back in no time full life…

40 secs cd imo is not the best option, i would just make rtl castable on target only…you can still roam and rush to fights (And use it normally since you’re facing someone) but then you can’t just get out when you want but i suppose this nerf is better than nothing, they still need to do something about an entire weapon bar of healing/support skills while other classes have pretty much nothing outside utilities (Someone just have the #6 aka mesmer or thief) and a couple of other things…we’ll see…as usual, when it’s ready..

MarkedOne.1309:

Archaon.6245:

In short words…now eles have to put some effort on staying alive not just rotate skills while facerolling ppl…good eles will still be good imo…everyone else is just going to die badly…as it should be and how already is with other classes in tpvp.

That is true. I know some people who could not play any other class and knowing that, they chose an ele as their main for its ability to faceroll. Thats just sick.

Old story…i actually know lots of ppl who suddenly become “pro” after they rerolled to ele…funny thing is that many of them look like good players with ele but outside it they completely suck, even with their main classes….guess why….

Archaon.6245:

40 secs cd imo is not the best option, i would just make rtl castable on target only…

I have a feeling that people who usually suggest RTL to be targettable don’t play an elementalist (much), and aren’t aware of the fun and tactical factor behind RTL. Making it targettable would take the charm out of it. 40s is much better exactly because you can still disengage with it. You’re paying for more diversity and, in my opinion, it’s much funnier a versatile skill that must be wisely used, than an one-dimensional skill that is always used and spammed for the same reason.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Archaon.6245:

40 secs cd imo is not the best option, i would just make rtl castable on target only…

I have a feeling that people who usually suggest RTL to be targettable don’t play an elementalist (much), and aren’t aware of the fun and tactical factor behind RTL. Making it targettable would take the charm out of it. 40s is much better exactly because you can still disengage with it. You’re paying for more diversity and, in my opinion, it’s much funnier a versatile skill that must be wisely used, than an one-dimensional skill that is always used and spammed for the same reason.

Maybe it’s because disengaging on demand is one of the main things that make eles the “free to play cookie cutter” atm…if you lost you just die like other classes not just “Oh my gowd thay’re kiking my kitten oh well just rtl away, heal up and come back in 3 secs…point is still neutral and i can retry as many times as i want”

Sorry…no, if you’re bad you die…if you picked up the wrong fight you die, if they backupped good you die….like evryone else..

Oh and before starting to say that thief can disengage like eles take a look at how much a thief can heal up in 3 secs and how he can defend a point without going stealth (SInce stealth = lost point)…if a thief disengages he’s not coming back in 3 secs flat..he needs to get out of combat to get a decent amount of life…and for sure he can’t go back right after he disengaged, if he’s poisoned or something he would probably already have an hard time trying not to die until he’s out of combat…

But that’s the playstyle of those kind of elementalists. They have a “second life” by fully healing themselves back and resetting the fight. It’s a fun playstyle, and it shouldn’t be removed from the game. The problem is that it is repeatable and too strong. With the nerf to both RTL and mist form for the upcomming patch, this playstyle is going to be far more restricted. Eles won’t be able to reset a fight twice, and not as easily too. It’s a fair nerf, because it keeps this playstyle viable and fun, but no longer broken.

Also, glass cannon elementalists desperately need this kind of stuff to survive. It works almost like the necromancer’s death shroud concept of an extra HP bar, which is extremely important to a profession where ALL the builds, be them bunker or not, rely on movement, healing and disruption to compensate for their extremely low amounts of HP and defense.

@Archaon..
Disengage skills have many classes in different weaponsets..stop acting that everyone else just dies all the time.
Also i dont know if you ahve been getting your kitten repeatedly handed to you by eles all this time but you are in heavy denial if you think that every ele player is bad and is carried over by their class.I know handling defeat is bad and you need to pass the fault somewhere else but you need to grow out of this ..

DiogoSilva.7089:

But that’s the playstyle of those kind of elementalists. They have a “second life” by fulling healing themselves back and resetting the fight. It’s a fun playstyle, and it shouldn’t be removed. The problem is that it is repeatable and too strong. With the nerf to both RTL and mist form, this playstyle is going to be far more restricted. Eles won’t be able to reset a fight twice, and not a easily. It’s a fair nerf, because it keeps part of the playstyle viable and fun, but no longer broken.

Also, glass cannon elementalists desperately need this kind of stuff to survive. It works almost like the necromancer’s death shroud concept of an extra HP bar, which is extremely important to a profession where ALL the builds, and especially ALL the non-bunker builds rely on movement, healing and disruption to compensate for their extremely low amounts of HP and defense.

You mean being broken and having an unfair advantage over every other class (Including thieves who are supposed to be the best roamers, and they still can’t get a running away ele) it’s now called playstyle? I suppose that warrior’s playstile consists in being facerolled by almost everyone atm…and no it’s not like death shroud, death shroud is a SKILL, having the choice to use rtl to troll ppl all day long while refulling on demand it’s just a broken mechanic as everyone already know..(Except maybe some eles…obviously)

kostbabis.8791:

@Archaon..
Disengage skills have many classes in different weaponsets..stop acting that everyone else just dies all the time.
Also i dont know if you ahve been getting your kitten repeatedly handed to you by eles all this time but you are in heavy denial if you think that every ele player is bad and is carried over by their class.I know handling defeat is bad and you need to pass the fault somewhere else but you need to grow out of this ..

Please make a list of classes/tpvp specs who can disengage, refull their hp bar and go back in 3-4 secs while the point they were holding is still neutral.

Waiting….

Archaon.6245:

You mean being broken and having an unfair advantage over every other class (Including thieves who are supposed to be the best roamers, and they still can’t get a running away ele) it’s now called playstyle?

Being able to run and heal back, yes, it is part of the playstyle, either you accept it or not. And about roaming, elementalists won’t be that great as roamers anymore once RTL’s cooldown gets doubled.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Archaon.6245:

You mean being broken and having an unfair advantage over every other class (Including thieves who are supposed to be the best roamers, and they still can’t get a running away ele) it’s now called playstyle?

Being able to run and heal back, yes, it is part of the playstyle, either you accept it or not. And about roaming, elementalists won’t be that great as roamers anymore once RTL’s cooldown gets doubled.

Ok all clear now, you guys actually think that resetting fights and being able to refull on demand it’s ok…no reason to discuss any further i guess…

Archaon.6245:

Ok all clear now, you guys actually think that resetting fights and being able to refull on demand it’s ok…no reason to discuss any further i guess…

For a profession with light armor, 11k base HP, and without stealth nor clones, yes, perfectly.

Archaon.6245:

kostbabis.8791:

@Archaon..
Disengage skills have many classes in different weaponsets..stop acting that everyone else just dies all the time.
Also i dont know if you ahve been getting your kitten repeatedly handed to you by eles all this time but you are in heavy denial if you think that every ele player is bad and is carried over by their class.I know handling defeat is bad and you need to pass the fault somewhere else but you need to grow out of this ..

Please make a list of classes/tpvp specs who can disengage, refull their hp bar and go back in 3-4 secs while the point they were holding is still neutral.

Waiting….

So you think an ele can reset the fight and go back in 3-4 sec?
Even the op bunker needs to wait 45 to 90 sec before the cantrips are up.
The rest eles (the offencive) doesnt matter if their health is up since its 13k and will go down to 20% if they eat a mesm burst with no prot
I dont know if you are exaggerating so to give emphasis to a real problem or you actually believe as true what you are saying?? :S
In any case you need to go ahead and make an ele bfore it gets nerfed.Cause an ele that can do what you said on your posts so far does not exist.If it existed then it would be able to win 5vs1 or something :P

ps:disengaging is a common tactic in any game in the known gaming world.
When a fight seems lost people use their mobility skills to get away and escape the downtime of dying.You must be stupid if you think thats unbalanced as a concept !?! :S

edit: high regen character that refill their lifes in frequent intervals is also a quite common feature of games..they are called “healers” instead of tanks that have high lives and defence they have healing skills to mantain their selves.It might seem unfair seeing a “healer” going from 20% to 100% in a few sec but its usually justified by the fact that it requires a lot less overal damage to bring him to low life.
(problem happens when healing results in oversustaining but the concept again can be totally balanced)
jeez do i need to explain the basics to you?

It seems everybody is overexaggerating a tad now.

Look at some obvious facts:

• Ride the Lightning transports you 1200 units and it is not a utility skill.
• The Elementalist can both engage and disengage from a fight with RtL because of its short cooldown.
• Immobilize cannot be used reactively to deny RtL only predictively, which does not promote good play.
• RtL is not affected by cripple and chill.
• You don’t need to spec into anything for RtL, this means a bunker can use it as easily as a roamer.

This skill is too strong to have without any sacrifice. You can use it on any spec you want and you’ll still recieve all of its possible advantages.
The change Arenanet is proposing is actual very good and I full support it. It has to be nerfed in some way.
Only other ways I can think of are:

• It’s fully affected by chill/cripple/fear with 5-10s extra recharge

OR

• You’re only able to use RtL with an enemy targeted

Personally I feel the 40s recharge if no enemy targetted seems the best way to go.

Jax.5261:

It seems everybody is overexaggerating a tad now.

Look at some obvious facts:

• Ride the Lightning transports you 1200 units and it is not a utility skill.
• The Elementalist can both engage and disengage from a fight with RtL because of its short cooldown.
• Immobilize cannot be used reactively to deny RtL only predictively, which does not promote good play.
• RtL is not affected by cripple and chill.
• You don’t need to spec into anything for RtL, this means a bunker can use it as easily as a roamer.

This skill is too strong to have without any sacrifice. You can use it on any spec you want and you’ll still recieve all of its possible advantages.
The change Arenanet is proposing is actual very good and I full support it. It has to be nerfed in some way.
Only other ways I can think of are:

• It’s fully affected by chill/cripple/fear with 5-10s extra recharge

OR

• You’re only able to use RtL with an enemy targeted

Personally I feel the 40s recharge if no enemy targetted seems the best way to go.

How does that NOT promote good play? Also how is it NOT reactive? Is the ele almost dead? Is it running in a direction towards the middle (from sides) or sides (from mid)? Did it just switch into air attunement? Then it’s about to RtL. You boggle my mind. You realize that our current attunement shows up in our buff bar right? That you can see that? That’s why good shatter mesmers spike with Leap after we swap into water – to force cantrip use or the ele eats the spike. So you’re saying that a good player actually having to pay attention to the class mechanics of the person their fighting, and using a TELEGRAPHED air attunement (literally, you can literally see it with your own eyes) action to their advantage (ie. killing the ele by preventing mobility) is promoting bad play? You’re ridiculous. That’s like saying targeting the real mesmer so you can focus dps on them instead of their clones, rather than just dealing with them by aoe, is bad play.

Also, it’s cd is currently on par with other leap type skills of the same range, if not longer. Is making it susceptible to soft cc, like rush, a good idea? Yes. Doubling the cooldown is ridiculous.

Muppet.6485:

Jax.5261:

It seems everybody is overexaggerating a tad now.

Look at some obvious facts:

• Ride the Lightning transports you 1200 units and it is not a utility skill.
• The Elementalist can both engage and disengage from a fight with RtL because of its short cooldown.
• Immobilize cannot be used reactively to deny RtL only predictively, which does not promote good play.
• RtL is not affected by cripple and chill.
• You don’t need to spec into anything for RtL, this means a bunker can use it as easily as a roamer.

This skill is too strong to have without any sacrifice. You can use it on any spec you want and you’ll still recieve all of its possible advantages.
The change Arenanet is proposing is actual very good and I full support it. It has to be nerfed in some way.
Only other ways I can think of are:

• It’s fully affected by chill/cripple/fear with 5-10s extra recharge

OR

• You’re only able to use RtL with an enemy targeted

Personally I feel the 40s recharge if no enemy targetted seems the best way to go.

How does that NOT promote good play? Also how is it NOT reactive? Is the ele almost dead? Is it running in a direction towards the middle (from sides) or sides (from mid)? Did it just switch into air attunement? Then it’s about to RtL. You boggle my mind. You realize that our current attunement shows up in our buff bar right? That you can see that? That’s why good shatter mesmers spike with Leap after we swap into water – to force cantrip use or the ele eats the spike. So you’re saying that a good player actually having to pay attention to the class mechanics of the person their fighting, and using a TELEGRAPHED air attunement (literally, you can literally see it with your own eyes) action to their advantage (ie. killing the ele by preventing mobility) is promoting bad play? You’re ridiculous. That’s like saying targeting the real mesmer so you can focus dps on them instead of their clones, rather than just dealing with them by aoe, is bad play.

Also, it’s cd is currently on par with other leap type skills of the same range, if not longer. Is making it susceptible to soft cc, like rush, a good idea? Yes. Doubling the cooldown is ridiculous.

I don’t think you understand what “reactively” means.

Someone stuns me, I reactively hit a stun breaker.

An ele is almost dead and is starting to face off point and switches into air, or even is already in air but then starts to run off point I ‘reactively’ immob him.

Nope, pretty sure I got it down. Thanks though, I really appreciate you double checking for me.

Muppet.6485:

Someone stuns me, I reactively hit a stun breaker.

An ele is almost dead and is starting to face off point and switches into air, or even is already in air but then starts to run off point I ‘reactively’ immob him.

Nope, pretty sure I got it down. Thanks though, I really appreciate you double checking for me.

No, actually if you understood what I was saying you’d know that I was referring to the fact you can’t cast immobilize on an ele while it is in RtL. You are actually using the immobilize pre-emptively, and yes on my stream you’ll see me do this a lot because it’s the only logical thing to do.

It promotes bad play due to you literally having to predict when the skill is going to go off which means you have to assume a few things (which you have done above):

• The ele is going to try RtL when they swap to Air.
• They want to try and exit the fight at low hp.

The reason these assumptions aren’t always useful is because a good ele knows how to fake out snares and if a snare does go off they don’t actually need to waste their RtL through it. This isn’t including the fact that even if you do manage to snare an ele in RtL sometimes you only get the start of it. Good Ele’s will also exit the fight when they realise they’re either wasting time or going to lose. This means you can’t just rely on the Ele dropping to low health or the Air swap.
Yes sometimes it’s 100% obvious, but they can still dodge your snare because they know it’s obvious.

So you’re actually pre-emptively immobilizing to try and stop RtL before it’s casted.

Oh and you’re correct about the stun breaker, but that analogy doesn’t work with this discussion.

Ah, now that you’ve explained that you meant while in the actual RtL animation I can agree with you. I’ve always wondered why they don’t simply let soft cc affect it. Would honestly fix all overmobility issues. By not reactively I found you were implying not a twich reaction when they swapped or gave the other cues. But yeah, I’m all for getting imob’d if the other team can twitch that fast seeing as RtL has quick move speed – if you miss your immob you miss it and that’s on you. Ahhhh balance.

Archaon.6245:

Caffynated.5713:

Pray tell, what does ride the lightning have to do with the power of 4 stun breakers that remove one or more conditions and make it nearly impossible to pin down the ele with CC for burst damage?

Nothing but it actually gives eles the option to disengage from fights and heal up on demand like no other class can do, if you put their op healing (And boons, and dodges and so on….) + rtl to simply get out from lost fight without being stomped and coming back in seconds full hp this makes rtl one (Not the only one for sure) of the main broken things to fix.

If you’re bad, outnumbered, lagging or whatever you just die like everyone else, running away every time you picked up the wrong fight it’s too easy and this let eles just rush in every teamfight no matter what because they can get away if needed, nerfing rtl must (First of all) not let eles disengage on demand and coming back in no time full life…

40 secs cd imo is not the best option, i would just make rtl castable on target only…you can still roam and rush to fights (And use it normally since you’re facing someone) but then you can’t just get out when you want but i suppose this nerf is better than nothing, they still need to do something about an entire weapon bar of healing/support skills while other classes have pretty much nothing outside utilities (Someone just have the #6 aka mesmer or thief) and a couple of other things…we’ll see…as usual, when it’s ready..

It’s also reduced from 1500 to 1200 range in the upcoming patch, so running away with it won’t be as effective either. Regardless of the reason for it, bugfix or not, it’s a thing.

i wrote a suggestion to buff offensive ele builds (glyphs partially) and tone down defense of cantrips, feel free to comment

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Elementalist-Cleansing-fire-balance/