Guild Wars 2

The downside is that you’re also interrupting all ress attempts and resetting any health gained. Funny how everyone seems to be looking at it from a 8v8 hotjoin perspective, where people rarely try to ress.

Kyzen.7452:

At the very least they should remove when you use mist form your down state hp is reset

Yeah, resetting your health after your mates got you to near full is awful. :/

Nyth.3492:

I can see why it is the strongest, or one of the strongest out there. But if you view it in perspective there is a lot of unjustified whining out there as well.

1) While Mist Form technically resets health, you actually get downed penalty each time you use it. Mist Form away and you start with 50% HP and you health goes down much faster.
The OP makes it seem like MF is a surefire way to indefinitely keep in the fight, this is bull.

2) The OP assumes that in every other situation you always have access to a stability, teleport and/or 2 people for a stomp. In any case where you don’t the ele downed is actually not as powerful as the others.
As ele I have a 100% chance to avoid the first stomp. But if the opponent doesn’t have stability or a teleport, I can avoid getting stomped a lot more and a lot longer on many other classes.
Note that the cooldown on Vapor Form has been changed to 20 seconds, meaning that with the extra downed penalty (point #1) you won’t be able to use it a second time unless you can heal yourself up.

In the end though I agree that for tPvP this ability is on the ‘too strong’-side. Especially the fact you can force people away from a point is imo too strong.
But you really have to get some misconceptions and false assumptions out of the way if you want a fair debate over what to do with it. Even in tPvP you don’t always have access to stability for stomping or have 2 players around to stomp or a teleport, and in those cases the ele downed state is hardly the strongest.

Your one point is spot on, your second point is not so much.

All classes save for Thief, Mesmer, and now Elementalist’s have multiple ways to deal with stomps. Stability is a dirrect counter to all of them but its not a requirement. Necro, Engineer, and Warrior all have a slow animation making it simple to dodge roll then get back onto the stomp ~2-4 seconds before their 3rd ability comes up. Rangers and Guardian Abilities are a bit faster, so rather then a dodge roll (which is still possible just hard) how about an instant cast blind? What, you just had an extremely close fight with that warrior and your down to ~2k hp with no endurance or stability left, and your blinds are on CD? Use a projectile Reflector or destroyer. There’s so many ways to guarantee a stomp on every class that the Ele, Thief, and Mesmer all need to be changed. Sure thief/mesmer can be auto stomped with the right setup that not all classes are capabable off and the mesmer is luck based more then anything and often requires a second person. However no matter what you do, you cannot stomp a Ele on the first time, which is not how it should b at all.

Personally i would just like to be able to CC downed opponents, that’d fix a lot of problems and allow for more flexibility in designing downed states. Just plop a 2 sec stun on them and quickness stomp them, or have your team mate daze them as they are about to interrupt you. Ect. Obviously you’d need to change the speed of the thief and ele cast then, but its still no big deal.

I think just changing it so the Ele downed state HP isn’t reset when they enter Mist is a balanced fix. Hell, Ranger 3 doesn’t even work 90% of the time (even when it becomes available, it doesn’t heal us) and we’re not complaining. Yet.

Ele downed is fine imo, but the HP reset thing should be changed.

Seems fine to me. It’s pretty much even if not slightly below thief and mesmer.

The hell are you going on about? Mesmer downed state is one of the worst in the game. Thief one has cripple and if you don’t teleport to the thief he will just keep disappearing. Mesmer one has longer recharge and the clone is useless because real mesmer always appears second and has a red arrow over him. Mesmer downed=ranger downed as far as power is concerned. You can evade one stomp and that’s it.

Aether McLoud.1975:

Noctred.6732:

Aether McLoud.1975:

LOL jumper. You realize vapor form lasts 1.5 seconds?

What?

Vapor form is 3 seconds.

You might try to actually play an ele before sprouting bullkitten. Just because the tooltip says it’s 3 seconds doesn’t mean it is. Vapor form is 1.5 seconds.

Also it gives downed penality so after a few uses you’ll instantly die.

I think you may regret this post, after you realize you’re wrong. I don’t play ele, but vaporform is clearly longer than 1.5 seconds. Feel free to try it yourself and time it.

I don’t understand how people are complaining about this. You HAVE TO run off the point to kill the? If the ele is downed outside of the point, you’ve already done your job. Cap the kittening point then go down the ele. It takes like 15 seconds to res yourself with #4, and if you just shoot the ele one time during that he’ll be stuck in downed for at least 20.

Aether McLoud.1975:

You might try to actually play an ele before sprouting bullkitten. Just because the tooltip says it’s 3 seconds doesn’t mean it is. Vapor form is 1.5 seconds.

Not sure if trolling?

I play ele daily and stomp other ele’s daily. I also just logged in a min ago and got myself killed – vapor form lasted 3 seconds.

Nyth.3492:

I can see why it is the strongest, or one of the strongest out there. But if you view it in perspective there is a lot of unjustified whining out there as well.

1) While Mist Form technically resets health, you actually get downed penalty each time you use it. Mist Form away and you start with 50% HP and you health goes down much faster.
The OP makes it seem like MF is a surefire way to indefinitely keep in the fight, this is bull.

2) The OP assumes that in every other situation you always have access to a stability, teleport and/or 2 people for a stomp. In any case where you don’t the ele downed is actually not as powerful as the others.
As ele I have a 100% chance to avoid the first stomp. But if the opponent doesn’t have stability or a teleport, I can avoid getting stomped a lot more and a lot longer on many other classes.
Note that the cooldown on Vapor Form has been changed to 20 seconds, meaning that with the extra downed penalty (point #1) you won’t be able to use it a second time unless you can heal yourself up.

In the end though I agree that for tPvP this ability is on the ‘too strong’-side. Especially the fact you can force people away from a point is imo too strong.
But you really have to get some misconceptions and false assumptions out of the way if you want a fair debate over what to do with it. Even in tPvP you don’t always have access to stability for stomping or have 2 players around to stomp or a teleport, and in those cases the ele downed state is hardly the strongest.

1 is valid, I guess? I didn’t get the impression that the OP was telling us that MF is a surefire way to stay in a fight, but uh, alright.

2, however – every single class has at least one way that guarantees a nice, clean stomp against the CCing classes – stealth, quickness or stability (possibly even two or three of those). Yes, quickness won’t guarantee your stomp vs anyone that isn’t a necro if they see it coming, and yes, stealth won’t help against guardians, but the counterplay is there, and this is actually a great strategic element – “Who do we want fighting that thief? Our guardian that can blink after him, or our warrior that can burst him down better?”

Also, the whole “But your allies were rezzing you! Resetting your hp is a negative to the ability!” are, um, probably not quite as skilled as they could be. If you need to mist form, you’re either A) being stomped or being hit. If A, this is even better than a normal stomp-while-being-rezzed: if the stomper doesn’t have stability, you just have the rezzer CC them (he doesn’t have CC to stop a stomp? uh, alright, that’s bad, but still – mistform away), and if he does, you use mistform – A ends up being equal to other classes (w/o stability-stomp) or it ends up being on par with the mesmer result (maybe even better) and way above all other classes’ results. B: well, keep rezzing the downed ele, I guess? This is kinda worse as the ele doesn’t offer anything whilst he’s being rezzed, but it’s nowhere near catastrophic, and in worst case scenario, just have them abandon the rezzing and mistform away until they CAN rez you.

Elemantalist went from being ludicrously easy to kill (by far the easiest in the game) in the downed state to being the absolute hardest, harder even than thief/mesmer.

Pretty much every other class in the game can be finished off reasonably by one player using stability properly. Thief and mesmer buy themselves some additional time and you have to be aware of where they go.

Everybodys different. Mist form is a bit op but let elementalists have their day I say! (since I rolled one just before this change )

I don’t understand how eles are any harder to kill than a thief or mesmer. The only difference is that you may have to go around a wall to stomp them, and they do way less damage to you while downed.

I don’t get what all the kittening is about.

dpcaldae.3068:

I don’t get what all the kittening is about.

Their health resets.

Just means you have to actually stomp, misplace your stomp key???

Stomps are important. Dps is, too. Ele can’t be dpsed basically. In addition to the best downed mobility.

i think warriors downed is much better because of vengeance

It is a classic knee-jerk fix. Which is funny because it took them weeks to do. Really doesn’t inspire confidence when they wait around for a month and then do something as lazy as that.

Ele 2 needed work but what it DIDN’T need was to be swapped with ele 3.

Caping the point from red to blue takes 14 seconds. Ressing yourself takes 15 seconds. ele runs away and can ress himself in time i cap the point, or i have to leave the point and lose points for my team to stop ele from ressing. Either way my team loses something. I either lose some points, or i let ele run away, knowing i might get attack fast again. Thief downed state is weaker as it can only teleport in Line of sight, meaning if he teleported from where you stand your ranged attack can hit him, if you position yourself + you can just dps him down.

this thread is kind of surprising and seems rather knee-jerk to the fact that Ele’s aren’t a free stomp anymore once downed.

The only real issue with Mist Form when downed is it resetting the HP on the character. That just shouldn’t happen. That being said though, once they use it they’re done and it’s an easy stomp regardless.

- Thiefs require 3 stomps (3rd being the successful stomp)
- Mesmers can require 3 stomps if they play it correctly on top of continuing to dps with phantasms while downed – lol at iRogue spamming HS
- Warriors’ Vengeance is ridiculous and counterintuitive to the whole mechanic.

Are you mad? thief requires 3 stomps ? since when ? look time for tp is 2 times longer then time t stomp after your first stomp if you are near m in first 4 seconds( which is a lot of time to run to me) you can stomp me before i use invisibility as it will have 1 second cooldown left, If you are 5-6 seconds late then just autoattack space where i was recently. i still take damage and i bleed while beeing invisible. Mesmers require 1 stomp if you know how to play and theydont spawn out of range… Warriors vengeance is kinda silly but i allready dealt with it,

Due to the long cooldown we can only use it once and vapor form ends ALOT quicker then 3 seconds. At least before the buff we could chain vapor forms together making kt REALLY annoying… If we made it past the first stomp.
OP must be mad eles now can survive 2 more seconds will downed… Thats a serious threat to the balance :O

-_-

hackks.3687:

this thread is kind of surprising and seems rather knee-jerk to the fact that Ele’s aren’t a free stomp anymore once downed.

The only real issue with Mist Form when downed is it resetting the HP on the character. That just shouldn’t happen. That being said though, once they use it they’re done and it’s an easy stomp regardless.

- Thiefs require 3 stomps (3rd being the successful stomp)
- Mesmers can require 3 stomps if they play it correctly on top of continuing to dps with phantasms while downed – lol at iRogue spamming HS
- Warriors’ Vengeance is ridiculous and counterintuitive to the whole mechanic.

-No, thieves don’t need more than 2 or even 1 stomp if you have a blink – you can easily stomp, watch them blink and then dodge roll to avoid their cripple and stomp again. How’d you get 3, anyway? If they manage to avoid the 2nd stomp with their invis, they’ll avoid the 3rd, too, since their blink’s up now.
-Mesmers – 3 stomps? Are you that guy that finishes off the clone instead of the real one?
-Warriors – you have to finish a warrior if he’s downed, easy as that. 1v1 if you stomp right as they go down, they can’t vengeance, and in an xvx (x>1), you need to stability finish the warriors.

I think a large portion of ignorance in this thread is due to people not looking at the problem in the right way.

They are thinking:
“dis gam ebout 1v1. 1v1 eles STILL get stomped wdf”
or
“just cap the node THEN go finish the ele if you haz problem”

I am thinking:
“Eles can reposition themselves which is huge, and can be rezzed safely or force the team that just KILLED the Ele (aka PUNISHING the people who got the kill by forcing the out of position to secure it, with extra dps needed to down from range than Thief because of hp reset). This is not a balanced mechanic, and its changes like this that are pushing GW2 PvP in wrong direction (the right direction being the “no downed state” movement, but thats another thread)."

Yeah I oversimplified the people who are looking at this the wrong way, but I haven’t really seen many compelling arguments as to how the Ele’s new state isn’t far and above other classes.

Also to whoever said “well Eles dont have a falling damage trait so YEAH” this is the sPvP forum last time I checked, I’m all for you having a falling damage trait but thats not a player here.

Clearly elems in downed state are far above other classes, you spend half of match killing bunker elem who’s kiting you and healing then you spend another half of match chasing their mist form.

The “best” escape existed before was thief’s 600 range teleport during downed state, mist form allows you to create around 900-1000 range gap? Oh and not to forget it actually allows you to choose positioning much better than thief’s teleport, it also resets your downed state hp and makes you invulnerable for the whole duration of mist form.

Funny but it sounds like 3 downed skills in one. To make it fair with other classes mist form in downed state could first of all
- Have its run speed cut down to a combat state’s run speed, because its not funny when a downed guy easily outruns living people with a speed buff.
- Remove hp reset;
- Remove invulnerability.

There, you get a balanced downed escape+interrupt skill which is STILL better than another escape+interrupt that is being thief’s teleport (mesmer’s interrupt is very strong but too unreliable to call it an escape).

I was fine with the old elementalist downed state, if you survive for 4 sec without getting downed you get a 5 second long mist form with 8 sec cd. Much better than it is now, now it promotes idiots who can’t play with ele and solo play rather than teammate pushing them. Idiot elementalists are annoying because u cant straight up finish them, basically the update just reduced the skill cap since its a no-brainer to use the new vapor form. Anyway… its not even nearly as gamebreaking as u claim to be, mesmer’s downed state is much better

While I agree, that it is ott atm, I do wonder: Shouldn’t stomps be balanced as well? I mean: Some can stomp from stealth, and I find it funny, that ppl openly admitting here, that stomps are important.
If someone uses a cd to stomp it is not necessarily because he is stupid … just maybe it is an OP move to ensure a kill, since stomps are that important?

And as one that play mesmer-alt: How I about my downed-state suddenly porting me on top of a construction if I die near it? A bit unreliable, but it still happens a lot.

There there……someone misses his free stomp…
/patback

Here’s an idea! Don’t waste time DPSing a downed Ele..force the Ele to use his/her escape immediately, then enjoy DPSing down (or stomping) one of the lowest health pools in the game.

Threads like this make me wish anet would use the playing experience of their own staff to balance professions, and not go by these kinds of threads. So what if an elementalist can avoid the first stomp? Just follow him and stomp him as his vapor form ends, nothing he can do against that. Elementalists are the weakest profession of the game, their only viable build is pure bunker, which not a lot of people enjoy playing, I can’t believe people are whining just because it gets a bit harder to finish them.

Zsymon.8457:

Threads like this make me wish anet would use the playing experience of their own staff to balance professions, and not go by these kinds of threads. So what if an elementalist can avoid the first stomp? Just follow him and stomp him as his vapor form ends, nothing he can do against that. Elementalists are the weakest profession of the game, their only viable build is pure bunker, which not a lot of people enjoy playing, I can’t believe people are whining just because it gets a bit harder to finish them.

They are not the weakest class in the game and they are viable as more than just a bunker. You also don’t seem to understand the full implications of what this downstate change brings. I imagine you do not play a whole lot of TPvP or find success there when you do play TPvP.

ITT: People being angry that eles aren’t a free kill anymore when downed.

Aether McLoud.1975:

ITT: People being angry that eles aren’t a free kill anymore when downed.

Yeah, except that isn’t the case at all from what people in the thread are saying. It was community consensus that Eles needed an improvement to their downstate and I think pretty much everyone was happy when they read about a change being implemented. However, the change they implemented seemed to go a bit overboard in the power of the #2 ability

@seether: im n of those players who posted a lot about the eles downed state, and myself and several others asked not for a better “2” but for other classes to have an equally bad “2”.

I think the downed state, especially the rally, give too great of an advantage to the more populous force. By nerfing “2” skills (or rally) you help to lessen this impact.

Considering thieves 3 hit an elemental, at least let them have a good downed state considering their living state isn’t that good.

1) Pick Ele
2) Go to WvW
3) Live forever

Mist form in first downed state is a joke, srsly.

Nyth.3492:

I can see why it is the strongest, or one of the strongest out there. But if you view it in perspective there is a lot of unjustified whining out there as well.

1) While Mist Form technically resets health, you actually get downed penalty each time you use it. Mist Form away and you start with 50% HP and you health goes down much faster.
The OP makes it seem like MF is a surefire way to indefinitely keep in the fight, this is bull.

2) The OP assumes that in every other situation you always have access to a stability, teleport and/or 2 people for a stomp. In any case where you don’t the ele downed is actually not as powerful as the others.
As ele I have a 100% chance to avoid the first stomp. But if the opponent doesn’t have stability or a teleport, I can avoid getting stomped a lot more and a lot longer on many other classes.
Note that the cooldown on Vapor Form has been changed to 20 seconds, meaning that with the extra downed penalty (point #1) you won’t be able to use it a second time unless you can heal yourself up.

In the end though I agree that for tPvP this ability is on the ‘too strong’-side. Especially the fact you can force people away from a point is imo too strong.
But you really have to get some misconceptions and false assumptions out of the way if you want a fair debate over what to do with it. Even in tPvP you don’t always have access to stability for stomping or have 2 players around to stomp or a teleport, and in those cases the ele downed state is hardly the strongest.

This person gets it. Elementalist adding a stack of “downed state” every time they go back down removes a fair portion of their health—more health than you could have taken from them by attacking them if you force them to mist immediately on down, in fact.

If you’re fixated on the kill, or if there are two of you(pretty much the exact same situation as every single other class in the game), you’ll get the stomp immediately after the elementalist uses mist.

1 vs 1, the mist makes for a pretty strong downed state because #3 comes up pretty quickly and does good damage, and mist all but guarantees you’ll get to use it. If you’ve got anyone that decides to continue standing next to you, though, it’s game over just as it should be.

Lexander.4579:

Clearly elems in downed state are far above other classes, you spend half of match killing bunker elem who’s kiting you and healing then you spend another half of match chasing their mist form.

The “best” escape existed before was thief’s 600 range teleport during downed state, mist form allows you to create around 900-1000 range gap? Oh and not to forget it actually allows you to choose positioning much better than thief’s teleport, it also resets your downed state hp and makes you invulnerable for the whole duration of mist form.

Funny but it sounds like 3 downed skills in one. To make it fair with other classes mist form in downed state could first of all
- Have its run speed cut down to a combat state’s run speed, because its not funny when a downed guy easily outruns living people with a speed buff.
- Remove hp reset;
- Remove invulnerability.

There, you get a balanced downed escape+interrupt skill which is STILL better than another escape+interrupt that is being thief’s teleport (mesmer’s interrupt is very strong but too unreliable to call it an escape).

they should not remove the invulnerability that is the whole point of using mistform. hp reset. maybe they can only regain part of the whole health instead of the full. moving at combat speed, that’s a pretty good idea. getting rid of invulnerability is a completely stupid idea

I just like that when I get downed in a 38 area at level 32, I can mist form at low hp, to get my 3 cooldown to be ready, then use my 3 and bring a mob 5-6 levels higher than me from 100% to dead and rally with one cast of my 3 ability.

Rauphz.2869:

1) Pick Ele
2) Go to WvW
3) Live forever

Mist form in first downed state is a joke, srsly.

No, even if you miraculously survive 20sec for vapor form to recharge, the down penalty would kill you if you use vapor form.
That being said, as an ele, I do see the concern. It’d be ok if it just kept your current HP from when you used it (and got rid of that darned extra downed penalty :p). If there are technical issues with that, I guess it could just be changed to a generic warp, but that’s kind of boring and they’d have to rework the icy mist trait too.

Atomic Sharks.7250:

maybe they can only regain part of the whole health instead of the full.

They already only get part of their whole health, half actually (on the first use, less/death later).

I always thought eles were the easiest to kill once in their down state…. they can’t stop you. Just run away and they never run anywhere useful…

I made a suggestion about this before it happened. The fact that the old mistform would make eles almost impossible to stomp also when I suggested putting mistform as a skill two. I think they did increase its recharge or atleast I hope they did I haven’t played my ele since, and I haven’t been playing but a few minutes per day anyways on any character, if that.

^^ You’re joking right? Almost impossible to stomp? Really?
The old downed state was one of the worst things in the game for an Ele and a guaranteed stomp for any decent player.

Not only is it the best downed state, but it’s easier to put an ele into downed state than any other class. Elementalists are now speccing downed state- you see them running into 1k blades laughing just so they can use this OP junk.

Anet, either remove mist form, or make it harder for us to down ele so they can’t use it so much. Seriously, this game.

this is the dumbest thing i’ve ever heard

fungihoujo.8476:

Not only is it the best downed state, but it’s easier to put an ele into downed state than any other class. Elementalists are now speccing downed state- you see them running into 1k blades laughing just so they can use this OP junk.

Anet, either remove mist form, or make it harder for us to down ele so they can’t use it so much. Seriously, this game.

10/10 I laughed.

I was very pleased to see my thread mentioned in this interview with Jonathan Sharp:

Around 9:00 is the discussion about Elementalist downed state.

Most of the top level gamers are in agreement about the current downstate, and I’d like this issue to not be lost in the void.

Yes – it was nice to mention it from Avalor – but you see the reaction: laughing. And what does Josh do: “Well yeah – the old state was pretty rough”. Hö? Who cares the old state – the question was about the new state.

Well – Avalor didnt got a answer and Jonathan simply said “Its on our watch-list” – but i dont think that he really meant the mistform – more the downstate in general and the HP in downstate.

I lol’d while reading this thread

Anyone that doesn’t agree about ele down state being the best one, is either a moron or plays ele and wants to feel ‘not op’.

Anyway, I agree with the OP.

Staeg.3859:

move mist form back to 3, but make it have about 3.25 second cooldown, so that you can use it if you successfully immobilize someone before they stomp you (if you got downed whilst they were on your face?

Yes – make it so that in order to stop a stomp you need to use both of your skills? What about rangers who can get 4 consecutive stomp interrupts no whining about it? Then again Necro fears, Guardian blocks & Engi bombs from downed state do AoE effect to the players around them which can easily help your team, you can’t do this with an Ele.

Just pop stability and you can successfully stomp most classes. You even can counter Mesmer to make an instant stomp (Start the stomp, they will usually teleport, abort it instantly, restart it. Now the animation “runs” while he is in stealth. He appears at the same time as your animation finishes and gets stomped).

But eles have absolutely no counterplay. Like the OP said: Downing a bunker/sustain-ele is already extremely hard. You need 2-3 people to do that. When they are downed, they can reset their HP or avoid 100% a stomp, something which no other class can. Also the mobility gives them the possibility to run into safety.