Guild Wars 2

I thought they were supposed to be a choice; optional. But, you are severely hobbling yourself by not traiting in them. The majority of them are so op or far to strong compared to the originals, you’d be crazy not to spec..especially if you are a Guard, Reaper or Chrono.

The irony in that giving us more “choice” they actually gave us less lol.

The core classes are clearly outperformed by the elite specializations and the statistics are very telling. My main has been a warrior since launch and I’m getting rolled by the new specializations. I haven’t felt this weak while playing warrior in years and am considering re-rolling to Revenant so my team doesn’t have to carry me thru games. I’m not sure if Anet actual intended for the new specs to be “elite” and outperform core classes or if the designers were simply unable to balance the new specs and core classes. I sincerely hope the next balance patch adequately addresses the balance problems or I fear the PVP scene will deteriorate due to player frustration.

In the case of Chrono, the Chrono line remedied pretty much all the underlying flaws in the Mesmer class.

It’s not so much that Chrono made Mesmer redundant, rather Chrono fixed Mesmer.

All future Mesmer elite specs that don’t offer the answer that Chrono did to the Mesmer riddle will never be used nor viable :)

Ross Biddle.2367:

In the case of Chrono, the Chrono line remedied pretty much all the underlying flaws in the Mesmer class.

It’s not so much that Chrono made Mesmer redundant, rather Chrono fixed Mesmer.

All future Mesmer elite specs that don’t offer the answer that Chrono did to the Mesmer riddle will never be used nor viable

What were the underlying flaws for the mesmer btw (serious question).

Ramoth.9064:

Ross Biddle.2367:

In the case of Chrono, the Chrono line remedied pretty much all the underlying flaws in the Mesmer class.

It’s not so much that Chrono made Mesmer redundant, rather Chrono fixed Mesmer.

All future Mesmer elite specs that don’t offer the answer that Chrono did to the Mesmer riddle will never be used nor viable

What were the underlying flaws for the mesmer btw (serious question).

- movement speed (time marches on completely cures that)
- condition-removal (heal-well + time marches on makes it a bit better)
- Glass-Cannon being the almost only option (helseth’s support/bunker with wells is now a very viable option)
- Stealth being the best option of survival by far (now you can go for well of precog and shield)
- teamsupport very lacking (wells + alacrity make this a thing of the past)
- Portal having to be picked everytime, now there are builds that aren’t forced to pick it and offer enough without going for a portal.

@Topic: There are still viable options for non-elite spec builds. Ppl have to realize that this game isn’t a F2P game and ANet wants them to buy the addon, so they want elite-specs to be better.

Ramoth.9064:

Ross Biddle.2367:

In the case of Chrono, the Chrono line remedied pretty much all the underlying flaws in the Mesmer class.

It’s not so much that Chrono made Mesmer redundant, rather Chrono fixed Mesmer.

All future Mesmer elite specs that don’t offer the answer that Chrono did to the Mesmer riddle will never be used nor viable

What were the underlying flaws for the mesmer btw (serious question).

Lack of defense that wasn’t stealth, lack of good sustained damage in fights, our class mechanics constantly fighting each other (shatter or not to shatter?), no good aoe pressure, no good team fight disruption pressure (the few weeks of bugged chaos storm don’t count here), having to make massive sacrifices in defense or utility to take stuff like portal.

Ramoth.9064:

Ross Biddle.2367:

In the case of Chrono, the Chrono line remedied pretty much all the underlying flaws in the Mesmer class.

It’s not so much that Chrono made Mesmer redundant, rather Chrono fixed Mesmer.

All future Mesmer elite specs that don’t offer the answer that Chrono did to the Mesmer riddle will never be used nor viable

What were the underlying flaws for the mesmer btw (serious question).

To add to the others,

Dueling was required for vigor, no vigor no dodges. Dueling required for fury, no fury no crits, no crits no vigor, no vigor no dodges, no dodges no clones, no clones no damage, including no shatter utility. Dueling required for DE. No DE, no clone generation, no shatters, no damage, no shatter utility. Chrono has been the first thing introduced to supply alternatives to clone generation, and Mesmers can completely run without Dueling. Chrono also provides super speed on shatters. Previously shattering anywhere but point blank range would typically mean shattered clones would never reach their target (would be outpaced or killed). One point on the Illusions line was it reduced illusion summoning skills, which was another way to supplement clone generation outside of DE. Alacrity helps achieve the same end, among other traits that shore up the same need.

Agree.
With Dragon Hunter trait, im just too used to the 4k healing on 26 seconds cool down =(

Mitch.4781:

I thought they were supposed to be a choice; optional. But, you are severely hobbling yourself by not traiting in them. The majority of them are so op or far to strong compared to the originals, you’d be crazy not to spec..especially if you are a Guard, Reaper or Chrono.

The irony in that giving us more “choice” they actually gave us less lol.

Funny that. I recently played the normal Necro and it turned out it works better than the Reaper in certain situations. And the normal Engie is still quite viable, also situationally but you guys would have everyone believe that the Elite specs are better in every way.

This is all just my opinion and how I feel about all this, I may be wrong but I just wanna give my two cents.

A few weeks ago I said bah, I can fight any Elite spec on my Guardian… Hehe, well now eveyone have learned how to play their Elite specs and found best build with them.

All elite spec disch out a good ammount of damage while being able to block/evade at the same time and they heal alot and they are overall tanky.

I play Scrapper mostly and I don’t want a nerf but I am pretty sure it needs one but worse are Reapers, Mesmers and DH with their very big AoE’s and CC and survivability.

Reapers Conditions do crazy ammount of damage even though they are more or less unkillable.

DH are not that hard their traps has good visuall tells (If they are not bugged) but they do way to much damage and can keep most classes trapped without any chance of escape (Now you say use stability. But yes if I had some but I don’t, what I do have is stunbreakers and they do not help). So my advice is to give Stunbreakers a stack of 1-2 Seconds Stability too as this new CC meta could need it.

Druids and Elementalists are what I hate the most, not only I can’t kill them but they do so much condition damage that it is redicolous. I don’t mind that I can’t kill them becouse they can heal very good (that is the point of druids) but they only need condition damage stat to do damage enough to kill every non Elementalist, Druid or Reaper. It feels like in the end every class is going to be like: Healing/Condition damage, Buffer/Condition damage, Tanky/condition damage becouse condition damage only use one stat too be good. Yes I can use cleances but… Most of them removes 1 condition and goes on a CD and there is one or 2 skills that removes all and is also then on CD (This is not true if you play elementalist though) and Druids and Eles gives you constant condition damage.

This is how I think it should work; you wanna do massive damage? Okay then you will be easy to kill. You wanna be able to survive 3 players? Okey then but you won’t do much of damage. You wanna be ok at everything, yes but you won’t be able to kill on 3 hits and you will not survive 3 players but you will be good overall. If you go tanky or healer you go tanky or healer not tanky with alot of Condition damage.

elite specs are broken as hell, you have to be next level delusional to deny that

Pewpew ranger and med. guard can still contribute to a team(debatable for pew pew ranger if it ever did acording 2 some viwes on game) engi was and still is class with widest choice of builds of em all…

Agreed some elite specs are so broken it’s ridiculous! The lead for the class design and balance was probably munching his/their mouth full of cheetos and got all the cheese all the way up to their brain while making the new specs.
That freakin reaper has got nuts survivability while dishing out mind blowing nut numbing damage. It’s fine if the guy playing the reaper is dumb as rocks but put it on a good player’s hands and it makes anyone just wanna quit playing. And what does Anet do? Well f’n they’re enjoying their wad of benjamins while stroking some local girls out in the beaches of the pacific. F this game!

Mitch.4781:

I thought they were supposed to be a choice; optional. But, you are severely hobbling yourself by not traiting in them. The majority of them are so op or far to strong compared to the originals, you’d be crazy not to spec..especially if you are a Guard, Reaper or Chrono.

The irony in that giving us more “choice” they actually gave us less lol.

Looking at the ESL Pro Team lineups, I’d say that they are not much of a choice…There are 2-3 core game builds still effective. Maybe a few more, it really depends on the team configuration but if the majority of your team isn’t running elite specs then you will be at a real disadvantage.

Ross Biddle.2367:

In the case of Chrono, the Chrono line remedied pretty much all the underlying flaws in the Mesmer class.

It’s not so much that Chrono made Mesmer redundant, rather Chrono fixed Mesmer.

All future Mesmer elite specs that don’t offer the answer that Chrono did to the Mesmer riddle will never be used nor viable

I wouldnt call giving a remedy to all underlying flaws in a class fixing the class :/ i mean, look what happens when you give everything a class is lacking to it? Massive power creep. Past meta used to revolve around building specs around strengths and weaknesses but now.. im not so sure any more.

Note that this post isnt mesmer specific. Im talking about most of the elite specs. :s

Although the upside is that some classes are finally more viable than others due to their glaring faults being addressed but eh, wish anet could have done it without the power creep.

I hope that other MMOs have forum threads that say “Level 90 makes level 80 redundant” when an expansion releases.

In some cases, yes, this is true.

Necro/Reaper – Both are still viable.
DH/Guardian – Bunker guard is still valid, MediBurst is still valid
Scrapper/Engie – I still love running my Condi Engi over Scrapper in PvP
Chrono/Mesmer – This is debatable, I think it mostly is determined on playstyle. Chrono can make it easier, but standard Mesmer can still work just fine.
Daredevil/Theif – I honestly have not noticed a difference between these two. The only way I know the difference is the third dodge. Which is just a third dodge…
Berzerker/Warrior – This is the biggest one I see the Elite Spec being better than the base warrior, as it really seems to be, both from facing and playing.
Tempest/Ele- Both are still glass cannons, Tempest is just more flashy. I really think Tempest shines the most in PvE.

Honestly, for the most part, the Elites really just do add a different play style over power. I have been doing PvP nightly and now that I am used to what the Elites do, its just like playing any other classes. Just know the signature thing that those elites do and your fine.

You’ve been bamboozled just like a lot of us. I guess they haven’t sold enough copies of HoT yet. No major balance patch between expansion release and the pvp season equals pretty much the biggest joke ever either that or A-net should take a bow they released a perfectly balanced expansion on the first try lol. No major changes need at all anywhere. Im going to go with biggest joke ever myself.

gricks.1897:

In some cases, yes, this is true.

Necro/Reaper – Both are still viable.
DH/Guardian – Bunker guard is still valid, MediBurst is still valid
Scrapper/Engie – I still love running my Condi Engi over Scrapper in PvP
Chrono/Mesmer – This is debatable, I think it mostly is determined on playstyle. Chrono can make it easier, but standard Mesmer can still work just fine.
Daredevil/Theif – I honestly have not noticed a difference between these two. The only way I know the difference is the third dodge. Which is just a third dodge…
Berzerker/Warrior – This is the biggest one I see the Elite Spec being better than the base warrior, as it really seems to be, both from facing and playing.
Tempest/Ele- Both are still glass cannons, Tempest is just more flashy. I really think Tempest shines the most in PvE.

Honestly, for the most part, the Elites really just do add a different play style over power. I have been doing PvP nightly and now that I am used to what the Elites do, its just like playing any other classes. Just know the signature thing that those elites do and your fine.

I ALMOST agree with your sentiment. ALMOST. My personal observations: Core Ele never really shined as Fresh Air, Tempest allows it to, Core Ele still probably better with D/D Cele, but that role is replaced by a lot of the other more sustain builds brought by HoT. Warrior viability had been low in the last meta, Berserker wasn’t going to change that THAT much, with a small nudge, they can both be viable though. For me Berserker fills out kitten in my CC oriented Warrior, and I’ve replaced Discipline, and found reasonable success with it after a few iterations, there are good and bad matchups, the problem is the bad matchups include Reapers and, oddly, Dragon Hunters (in theory this one should be a good matchup, I might just be bad).

Daredevil, once the community realizes that to play daredevil well, they need to throw away what they knew about core thief, and embrace broken mechanics, it will distinguish itself as a class.

The rest is relatively agreeable. My own personal core mesmer build is greatly different from Chronomancer and standard core.

gricks.1897:

Berzerker/Warrior – This is the biggest one I see the Elite Spec being better than the base warrior, as it really seems to be, both from facing and playing.

I disagree 100%. Strength/Defense/Discipline Rampage warrior will wreck any Berserker provided the players are more or less equally skilled. Just take Signet of might and run rampage, berserker will fall before it can get to T3 adrenaline level.

This also highlights a major problem with the warrior regarding the class’ sustainability. 4 sec of endure pain on a 60 CD isn’t gonna help with the constant burst of some classes (or rather elite specs).

NiloyBardhan.9170:

gricks.1897:

Berzerker/Warrior – This is the biggest one I see the Elite Spec being better than the base warrior, as it really seems to be, both from facing and playing.

I disagree 100%. Strength/Defense/Discipline Rampage warrior will wreck any Berserker provided the players are more or less equally skilled. Just take Signet of might and run rampage, berserker will fall before it can get to T3 adrenaline level.

This also highlights a major problem with the warrior regarding the class’ sustainability. 4 sec of endure pain on a 60 CD isn’t gonna help with the constant burst of some classes (or rather elite specs).

its best just not to play warrior

seriously play any other class

Elite: A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

We paid for “Elite” specializations. Of course they are better, otherwise they wouldn’t be called “Elite”.

Mitch.4781:

I thought they were supposed to be a choice; optional. But, you are severely hobbling yourself by not traiting in them. The majority of them are so op or far to strong compared to the originals, you’d be crazy not to spec..especially if you are a Guard, Reaper or Chrono.

The irony in that giving us more “choice” they actually gave us less lol.

Your are completely incorrect, have you not played warrior?

sephiroth.4217:

Elite: A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

We paid for “Elite” specializations. Of course they are better, otherwise they wouldn’t be called “Elite”.

How many times must this be said for it to get through peoples thick skulls, elite specializations are NOT suppose to be better than the core ones despite the name. The game director Colin J. said it himself, they are suppose to give classes different play styles that they could not get before (guardian with a viable long range weapon, engineer with a viable melee weapon ect).

Cogbyrn.7283:

I hope that other MMOs have forum threads that say “Level 90 makes level 80 redundant” when an expansion releases.

By your logic the next expansion should bring in super elite specializations that will make the elite specializations obsolete and so on for every new expansion.

This whole mess could have been avoided if they called thees things something like ‘focused specializations or ’narrow specializations’ or ‘many stupid people thing this is suppose to always be slotted in every build specialization’ ,anything other than elite.

foste.3098:

sephiroth.4217:

Elite: A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

We paid for “Elite” specializations. Of course they are better, otherwise they wouldn’t be called “Elite”.

How many times must this be said for it to get through peoples thick skulls, elite specializations are NOT suppose to be better than the core ones despite the name. The game director Colin J. said it himself, they are suppose to give lasses different play styles that they could not get before (guardian with a viable long range weapon, engineer with a viable melee weapon ect).

By your logic the next expansion should bring in super elite specializations that will make the elite specializations obsolete and so on for every new expansion.

This whole mess could have been avoided if they called thees things something like ‘focused specializations or ’narrow specializations’ or ‘many stupid people thing this is suppose to always be slotted in every build specialization’ ,anything other than elite.

seems like further expansions will add more elite specs.
it also seems like they should be in a way better, as you can only take one elite. of course with only one elite now that seems irrelevant, but in the future that will be important.

regardless, for the two professions i play i dont feel elite specs are mandatory.
warrior is awful regardless of if you take berserker or not. s/d/d is absolutely competitive with berserker, if not superior.
in regard to engineer, scrapper is great but not for every build. power & cele builds will love the hammer, but for condi it’s a bad weapon. admittedly condi isn’t played much in pvp, but its still excellent for wvw roaming & shreks revs. still, the old nade builds still work well. scrapper is a good choice, but not essential imo. soldiers rifle is still very playable.

foste.3098:

By your logic the next expansion should bring in super elite specializations that will make the elite specializations obsolete and so on for every new expansion.

This whole mess could have been avoided if they called thees things something like ‘focused specializations or ’narrow specializations’ or ‘many stupid people thing this is suppose to always be slotted in every build specialization’ ,anything other than elite.

I didn’t say anything about what ANet should or shouldn’t do. But I’m also used to needing an expansion to play an MMO with others when an expansion releases.

Also, “elite” is the term they’ve used consistently to mean “thing you get only 1 of in a build”. You get 1 Elite in your skill bar. You get 1 Elite trait line in your build. In GW1, you could only equip 1 Elite at a time.

“Elite” made sense to use, and I think it’s fine. It also seems many people are reporting that the style an Elite brings to certain classes isn’t always desired. It seems to mainly be desired for classes that either had a gaping hole in their design (such as Necromancer), or classes that had the meta shift on them and are attempting to shift with it (Guardian, I believe, falls into this category. Could be wrong.).

We’ll see what the future holds. I just think this is a useless topic at this point. People seem to want Elite spec nerfs, but I don’t know that I’ve, once, seen a suggestion for how to nerf them. Just robble robble robble.

foste.3098:

sephiroth.4217:

Elite: A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

We paid for “Elite” specializations. Of course they are better, otherwise they wouldn’t be called “Elite”.

How many times must this be said for it to get through peoples thick skulls, elite specializations are NOT suppose to be better than the core ones despite the name. The game director Colin J. said it himself, they are suppose to give classes different play styles that they could not get before (guardian with a viable long range weapon, engineer with a viable melee weapon ect).

That was a PR statement. Clearly they want people to buy the expac therefore the elites need to be stronger to encourage that. Not saying this is a good thing its just grist for the GW2 free to play money train. However I do like a lot of the elite specs better than the base specs.

gricks.1897:

In some cases, yes, this is true.

Necro/Reaper – Both are still viable.
DH/Guardian – Bunker guard is still valid, MediBurst is still valid
Scrapper/Engie – I still love running my Condi Engi over Scrapper in PvP
Chrono/Mesmer – This is debatable, I think it mostly is determined on playstyle. Chrono can make it easier, but standard Mesmer can still work just fine.
Daredevil/Theif – I honestly have not noticed a difference between these two. The only way I know the difference is the third dodge. Which is just a third dodge…
Berzerker/Warrior – This is the biggest one I see the Elite Spec being better than the base warrior, as it really seems to be, both from facing and playing.
Tempest/Ele- Both are still glass cannons, Tempest is just more flashy. I really think Tempest shines the most in PvE.

Honestly, for the most part, the Elites really just do add a different play style over power. I have been doing PvP nightly and now that I am used to what the Elites do, its just like playing any other classes. Just know the signature thing that those elites do and your fine.

What is your definition of viable, exactly? Getting stomped? Im curious as most of the builds you listed there are obsolete. Even d/d cele ele, a spec that performed very well in the past meta, has no place in this one. The massive power creep is evident and you’d be delusional to claim otherwise.

ReaperJr.5967:

gricks.1897:

In some cases, yes, this is true.

Necro/Reaper – Both are still viable.
DH/Guardian – Bunker guard is still valid, MediBurst is still valid
Scrapper/Engie – I still love running my Condi Engi over Scrapper in PvP
Chrono/Mesmer – This is debatable, I think it mostly is determined on playstyle. Chrono can make it easier, but standard Mesmer can still work just fine.
Daredevil/Theif – I honestly have not noticed a difference between these two. The only way I know the difference is the third dodge. Which is just a third dodge…
Berzerker/Warrior – This is the biggest one I see the Elite Spec being better than the base warrior, as it really seems to be, both from facing and playing.
Tempest/Ele- Both are still glass cannons, Tempest is just more flashy. I really think Tempest shines the most in PvE.

Honestly, for the most part, the Elites really just do add a different play style over power. I have been doing PvP nightly and now that I am used to what the Elites do, its just like playing any other classes. Just know the signature thing that those elites do and your fine.

What is your definition of viable, exactly? Getting stomped? Im curious as most of the builds you listed there are obsolete. Even d/d cele ele, a spec that performed very well in the past meta, has no place in this one. The massive power creep is evident and you’d be delusional to claim otherwise.

Daredevil (second most played class for me) is absolutely amazing compared to vanilla thief. Much easier initiative management, a lot more survivability and stunbreaks that are actually really good.

Reaper (most played class for me, by a long mile) it depends here, i think PvP wise they are very close, but reaper is definitely just that bit better. I think the biggest change that made vanilla necro that much better was that deathshroud is now a weapon swap.

Ramoth.9064:

ReaperJr.5967:

gricks.1897:

In some cases, yes, this is true.

Necro/Reaper – Both are still viable.
DH/Guardian – Bunker guard is still valid, MediBurst is still valid
Scrapper/Engie – I still love running my Condi Engi over Scrapper in PvP
Chrono/Mesmer – This is debatable, I think it mostly is determined on playstyle. Chrono can make it easier, but standard Mesmer can still work just fine.
Daredevil/Theif – I honestly have not noticed a difference between these two. The only way I know the difference is the third dodge. Which is just a third dodge…
Berzerker/Warrior – This is the biggest one I see the Elite Spec being better than the base warrior, as it really seems to be, both from facing and playing.
Tempest/Ele- Both are still glass cannons, Tempest is just more flashy. I really think Tempest shines the most in PvE.

Honestly, for the most part, the Elites really just do add a different play style over power. I have been doing PvP nightly and now that I am used to what the Elites do, its just like playing any other classes. Just know the signature thing that those elites do and your fine.

What is your definition of viable, exactly? Getting stomped? Im curious as most of the builds you listed there are obsolete. Even d/d cele ele, a spec that performed very well in the past meta, has no place in this one. The massive power creep is evident and you’d be delusional to claim otherwise.

Daredevil (second most played class for me) is absolutely amazing compared to vanilla thief. Much easier initiative management, a lot more survivability and stunbreaks that are actually really good.

Reaper (most played class for me, by a long mile) it depends here, i think PvP wise they are very close, but reaper is definitely just that bit better. I think the biggest change that made vanilla necro that much better was that deathshroud is now a weapon swap.

Was referring to non-elite specs.

The issue probably isn’t that elite specs are stronger than the vanilla versions. The reason why most pro league teams are using them is probably because even if you only want the weapon, utilities, or traits, you still have to take the elite spec to get any of it. This is very different from all other specializations where utilities and weapons aren’t tied to them. Only elite specializations require you equip them if you want the weapon or utilities.

Aside from that, elite specs probably aren’t optimized for every situation. For example, on guard, taking DH is a no brainer for pure dps, but when it comes to condition damage or bunking, DH is not necessarily better.

Perhaps a solution, if we really want people to use elite specs less, is to untie weapons and utilities from elite specs once unlocked.

I just wish they would let us buy the elite specs separately or with gold/gems since I only play pvp.

i dunno, i think there are quite a few oldschool specs that could give the elites a difficult time.
Engie: i’m still playing rifle SD and still oneshotting people.
Guard: i’m sticking with burns and still melting faces.
thouse are just 2 off the top of my head,
but i’ve only incorporated the elites into a few of my chars and i’m still having fun.
(not getting my butt kicked every fight)

Liewec.2896:

i dunno, i think there are quite a few oldschool specs that could give the elites a difficult time.
Engie: i’m still playing rifle SD and still oneshotting people.
Guard: i’m sticking with burns and still melting faces.
thouse are just 2 off the top of my head,
but i’ve only incorporated the elites into a few of my chars and i’m still having fun.
(not getting my butt kicked every fight)

Both of the builds you mentioned are gimmick and only works against lower skilled opponents. They would hardly give any decent player a ‘hard time’

Pvping as someone who hasn’t bought HoT is no longer any fun
Also in wvw, Eternal Battlegrounds is very laggy at peak hours and the new borderland maps are huge and unpopulated.
I’ve never pve’d this much in my life.

gricks.1897:

In some cases, yes, this is true.

Necro/Reaper – Both are still viable.
DH/Guardian – Bunker guard is still valid, MediBurst is still valid
Scrapper/Engie – I still love running my Condi Engi over Scrapper in PvP
Chrono/Mesmer – This is debatable, I think it mostly is determined on playstyle. Chrono can make it easier, but standard Mesmer can still work just fine.
Daredevil/Theif – I honestly have not noticed a difference between these two. The only way I know the difference is the third dodge. Which is just a third dodge…
Berzerker/Warrior – This is the biggest one I see the Elite Spec being better than the base warrior, as it really seems to be, both from facing and playing.
Tempest/Ele- Both are still glass cannons, Tempest is just more flashy. I really think Tempest shines the most in PvE.

Cores aren’t viable (if viable = competitive), no matter what you will say.
Just look at builds used in Pro League.