Guild Wars 2

Am I the only one to believe that throwing elixir R right before getting downed to get a free insta rez is abused? Since it’s impossible to stomp the engi fast enough and outDPSing the rez would take a fullzerker build/gear.

I stumbled upon a guy who did that and even tho I can get him down twice with that sort of abuse (yes I consider this abuse), the time for me to take him down twice is significant and his allies have plenty of time to come back.

Don’t go telling me you have to be pro to do that… when your health is near 0 and you know you are gonna die, throwing the elixir is instant unless you are stunned which isn’t always the case in a 1v1 scenario. And don’t call that guy good, if he was good, he wouldn’t go down in the first place.

Rezing abilities shouldn’t affect self at the exception of fire attunement ele rez which require 6 sec cast to get a buff that will allow self rez (obviously will never happen in PvP)

I wouldn’t say it’s abused because it’s a gimmick and very few engineers use it that way, but I do think it has potentially problematic applications, and I don’t think it was intended to be used that way and will probably be fixed sometime soon.

How is it a gimmick. Any decent engineer knows of this application to Elixir R and many of them use it.
A lot of players can’t spot when an Engi uses it tho and that’s one of the main problems to why it’s so strong.
It can seem absurdly strong at times, especially when a good Engi will utilize the trait that resets their toolbelt skills when they hit 25% health or something like that

I say it’s a gimmick in that it’s not seen nearly as much as other engineer specs. Some players really use it to their advantage and play well with it, but there is probably more variety in Engineer builds than any other profession when it comes to utilities, so it doesn’t always make the cut for Engi builds.

knock them out of the area.

the buff area only lasts 6 seconds….im sure you’re capable of figuring out ways of either knocking him off like Jony said, or los-ing until the 6 seconds is up.

Wait so, he shouldn’t be able to self rez because being downed means he’s not good? So what, he doesn’t DESERVE it?

Please tell me where you got the idea that only bad players get downed.

Cheyenne.1085:

Wait so, he shouldn’t be able to self rez because being downed means he’s not good? So what, he doesn’t DESERVE it?

Please tell me where you got the idea that only bad players get downed.

he didnt meant that, what he said is " u may say “managing to use that elixir may require high skill so not everyone will be able to use it” but if he was high skilled player he wouldnt need to use it" with that he kinda proved that it is easy to utilize

This elixir (with its area res toolbelt ability) is the best stun-break imo, especially if traited for a lowered cooldown. I think most engi’s will pick up on this eventually, especially in the tournament environment.

Learning every other class is hard enough for the average player: this adds to the long list of nuances and counters one must understand for the increasing sidegame of downedstates.

I actually didn’t know this was a stun-break as well… my opinion of this ability has changed quite a bit, and it did awesome for me for a few games in a row, but I think I had the element of surprise… nothing like seeing someone go for the spike and then ‘surprise, poppin fresh mofo’ as you get back up.

When people come to expect this though I wonder if they will just wait a second for the Engineer to pop back up and blast them again, because there’s not much life left
after the rez.

That said, at the moment I’m having fun with it in sPvP.

1 – Knock out
2 – Don’t kill them for 6 seconds
3 – Zerg him

It can be dealt with imo. The only reason it feels ‘gimicky’ currently is because it’s not very well known yet and takes people by surprise. Engi doesn’t have a whole lot of "Ok, its an engi so watch out for him doing such and such’ scenarios like say thief or warrior for example so its not bad that they have something like this.

Yes… I have 10 blowout and pushback to spare at the end of a fight… I rarely have more then 1 on all my character and it’s always a long CD that I use in nearly any fight because I need to in order to down someone.
No it didn’t take me by surprise. The first time he did it to me I /facedesk seeing how kitten stupid it was for someone to be able to rez himself like that.
No killing them for 6 seconds? He throw it before he die… it’s pretty easy to shoot an instant ability when you are 1 hit from dead. I’m not talking about 5-8-10k a thief does. I’m talking about 1-2k hits or condition damage kill. It’s pretty easy to figure when you are gonna fall down. And not killing them for that 6 seconds… yeah right. It’s 20% of his health per seconds. It take 3 seconds for him to be back up and it take 2 seconds to stomp. He can interrupt me once. (And I rarely have stability up. And even my guardian never have it’s virtue for aegis up to block the pull)

I love it when people exaggerate after loosing a 1v1.

From the moment the engineer goes down, he needs 2 pulses of elixir R to go back up. Each pulse takes a second.
I’m gonna say it again. It is impossible to instantly self rez with elixir R.

Hit him with auto-attack once. Now it takes 3 pulses. Autoattack again —> 4 pulses.
Auto attack 2 more times and he wont rez at all.

Most classes have a half second auto attack. So 3 seconds of auto attacking and you break his self rez.

So, to reiterate: You need to get a single auto attack on the body within 2 seconds. (Btw, during those 2 seconds all of his interrupts are on GCD). You then need to put in 2.5s of additional auto attack over 6 seconds. In total you have 8 seconds to put in 3 seconds of auto-attacks.

If you can’t auto-attack the engineers body once after he goes down, I’d say you deserve the loose in a 1v1.

TL;DR: Auto attack the dam body. Don’t be a lame pub who thinks he should be able to mash F and win.

xD maybe this was me or some of my few friends who do it like this :D
i play this class since yesterday. the class ist endless bugged but has some cool abilities like this^^
imo its not abuse because if you know the method you can handle it.
if i dont know about mesmers i will attack their clones <.< that must be abuse :D

PotatoOverdose.6583:

If you can’t auto-attack the engineers body once after he goes down, I’d say you deserve the loose in a 1v1.

Interesting point of view ^^

Pretty sure the ranger elite can still self rez as well. Neither are broken though since it takes skill to use and can be countered if you know what you’re looking for.

Seriously, your counter argument is “It’s to hard to remember to auto-attack the body?”

I mean….if you let go of the keyboard and mouse after downing the engineer/ranger, your character will do it automatically.

Does…does l2p even apply if you’re computer will do it automatically for you?

It actually is very powerful 1v1, in that if you know you’ve already put the elixer down, you can use your harpoon rope move to knock them down for the 2 ticks you need for a full rez.

That said, I’ve been running it the last few hours and it still feels a little gimmicky. The endurance refill and stun-break are the main traits that make it worth carrying, and how it applies to your team-mates moreso. It’s ten times more useful to help out your team than yourself.

aydenunited.5729:

It actually is very powerful 1v1, in that if you know you’ve already put the elixer down, you can use your harpoon rope move to knock them down for the 2 ticks you need for a full rez.

That said, I’ve been running it the last few hours and it still feels a little gimmicky. The endurance refill and stun-break are the main traits that make it worth carrying, and how it applies to your team-mates moreso. It’s ten times more useful to help out your team than yourself.

The bolded part is incorrect. When you go down, all of you’re “downed” skills start off on a short cooldown(aka Global Cooldown or GCD, which I mentioned in my first post). Seeing as auto-attack is available every half second, you are guaranteed to get in the one auto attack in the first 2 seconds. And then its over for the engineer as I mentioned in my first post….cause well…auto-attack lol.

MarkedOne.1309:

Backstab is getting nerfed and this skill not?
Very nice logic, very nice.

Not that it’s very relevant in this thread, but I’m sure if backstab was blocked by auto attack, no one would ever have touched it.

So long as they instantly begin to attack, yes, but auto-attack stops on downed doesn’t it? I’ve never had an issue 1v1 getting up no matter what they do so far.

So far this hasn’t been used but then again, hardly anyone even knows about this skill unless you play an Engineer yourself.

There’s a 2 second uninterrupted window to use a half second auto-attack to counter an 85 second cooldown skill. If this gets nerfed…well…lol.

Tbh, if this was nerfed I wouldn’t be surprised. Engineers have been nerfed with almost every balance patch. We’ll adapt, we always have. And it doesn’t work against decent players because it is countered by auto-attack so…meh…. I guess?

Yeah, you can also poison the downed engi making the heal less effective or knock him out of the ring. Also, many engis will stand in their ring waiting to die, if you already have him on the ropes and you do not have any of the other standard counters then you can consider waiting out the ring before delivering your final burst.

Don’t get me wrong this ability can be very strong but I think given the wide availability of counters as well as the fairly long CD, this ability does need to be removed/altered.

*Disclosure: I play engi but I try my best to approach game mechanics without bias.

@potato:

“TL;DR: Auto attack the dam body. Don’t be a lame pub who thinks he should be able to mash F and win.”

you called everyone raising this issue “lame.” No one should waste their time arguing with your perceived superiority.

Seether.7285:

Master Charles.7093:

I’m sorry but there are too many things for players to keep track of, and with so many ‘fans’ ready to provide valid counters, I’m sick of this community pointing out I’m bad.

-final post

FTFY “Master” Charles

No you didn’t, you just twisted my words. Here you omit the existence of “imbalance, exploit, or bugs” to insult me, further proving my point. Now please keep my name out of your posts so I don’t have to make another.

This skill is completely reliant on timing and coordination, has a long cooldown, and can be countered if an opponent knows it’s coming. I believe it’s fine, imo.

@Master Charles

Master Charles.7093:

@potato:

“TL;DR: Auto attack the dam body. Don’t be a lame pub who thinks he should be able to mash F and win.”

you called everyone raising this issue “lame.” No one should waste their time arguing with your perceived superiority.

Seether.7285:

Master Charles.7093:

I’m sorry but there are too many things for players to keep track of, and with so many ‘fans’ ready to provide valid counters, I’m sick of this community pointing out I’m bad.

-final post

FTFY “Master” Charles

No you didn’t, you just twisted my words. Here you omit the existence of “imbalance, exploit, or bugs” to insult me, further proving my point. Now please keep my name out of your posts so I don’t have to make another.

No, I called everyone who thinks ‘mashing F on a downed player should guarantee a win’ lame. I did not call you lame (unless you happen to think mashing F should guarante a win….in which case…yeah). Nor did I call everyone that disagrees with me lame, by the exact same token. So please, stop misrepresenting my position and putting words in my mouth.

For someone who complains of twisting words, you happen to do a lot of word twisting yourself.

And btw, Seether’s fix of your post was fairly accurate. Most everyone that disagreed with your posts provided an in-game counter to your problem. That’s called constructive criticism.

I’d totally LOVE to see that auto attack that hit for 5k.
Because we arn’t all freaking full berserker gear with crit damage runes and traits.
Downstate grant INCREASED healthpool to the player. And a very big increase at that. 20% of that healthpool is MASSIVE. And in NO WAYS can an auto attack do more then the healing. The target become INVULNERABLE for a second when going from 0 health to down state which give time for that pull to be out of cooldown.

So NO you don’t need an auto attack to break it. You need more then that. You need to either be full zerker or to pushback/launch the target out of it. Which in almost every case, you won’t see someone with zerker or a pushback/launch ready.

There is no IN-GAME COUNTER in any posts on this thread other then pushback/launch and that cannot be considered a good counter since it require you to go way too much out of your way for one kitten abusive ability. And the engineer doesn’t even pay for it since Elixir R is probably the BEST elixir they have.

Keep trying to defend your kitten abuse of a broken mechanism. Just like thieves defending the undefendable and warrior saying quickness is fine. Might as well say that portal repair trebuchet is totally pro and full of skills.

I just tested Elixir R in the mists, and it healed twice per pulse for around 5k, so about 10k per second. Downed state HP is around 50k, so that seems correct as 20%. The skill is 6s long, so assuming perfect timing you could get 6 pulses, and you need at least 2-3 to get up. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter if you can auto attack once before the engie gets his Grappling Line, you are going to need a lot more than one or two hits.

Not all weapons auto attack every 0.5s. An elementalist’s staff for example has auto attack times around 1.3s, and will only hit 2-3k in glass cannon builds.

Autoattacks are very unlikely to stop the elixir R toss – you’re going to need to either stack real damage (usually from multiple sources) or blow the body out of the radius.

That said, I think the mechanic is fine as is.

Healing 10K a sec sounds pretty overpowered to me. Cant engi also trip you over or blow you back with a bomb too, while this is going on? (depending on luck of initial CD on downstate abilities, i suppose). Maybe this elixir will see a tweak

aydenunited.5729

“I wouldn’t say it’s abused because it’s a gimmick and very few engineers use it that way,”

Hahaha you serious? As an engineer, the only stun break I’m taking is Elixir R, why?

Breaks stun, refills endurance, nice!
Toolbelt skill, removes condition each pulse or rezzes me when I’m downed if I time things right, REALLY NICE. Oh, and let’s not forget that I can also throw it down on one of my downed teammates if he’s in range and rez him from afar.

I would take a guess that every engineer in decent teams has elixir r in one of their utility slots.

Tomahorc.9607:

removes condition each pulse

Only the first pulse remove a condition. But it doesn’t change the fact that 20% downed health per second is WAY too much for something you just throw then ignore. Especially if you can throw it to rez yourself. That is just abusing of the game broken mechanisms. It’s as problematic as the stealth rendering bug since it’s change a fight more then drastically. Having 2 lifes in 1 fight…

I’ve run elixer R from time to time, and it’s a lot of fun when you actually pull it off. But please remember the engineer relies on wacky, unpredictable tactics like this, since without them he would just be a weaker version of any other profession. Here’s why elixer R doesn’t merit the nerf bat:

—There are several counters to it. I suppose if you’re running a condition build with no knockbacks it would be difficult to compete with. I’m not sure we need to nerf it just for that, though.

—It fills one of the engineer’s three precious utility slots and has an 85 second cooldown. It had better be good. The engineer’s utility slots are more important than their weapon in most cases. Imagine giving up your second weapon slot for this skill.

—If I lose a fight once, I’ll probably lose it again after I get back up with only a few thousand hp.

—It’s not as frustrating to new players as getting ganked by burst builds; it’s also not very effective in top-level matches. Backstab got nerfed because it broke casual PvP; the flamethrower stability got nerfed because it broke top-level PvP. This doesn’t break either.

tl;dr? Roll an engineer and give it a try. It’s fun, but not game-breaking.

snaplemouton.1294:

Am I the only one to believe that throwing elixir R right before getting downed to get a free insta rez is abused? Since it’s impossible to stomp the engi fast enough and outDPSing the rez would take a fullzerker build/gear.

I stumbled upon a guy who did that and even tho I can get him down twice with that sort of abuse (yes I consider this abuse), the time for me to take him down twice is significant and his allies have plenty of time to come back.

Don’t go telling me you have to be pro to do that… when your health is near 0 and you know you are gonna die, throwing the elixir is instant unless you are stunned which isn’t always the case in a 1v1 scenario. And don’t call that guy good, if he was good, he wouldn’t go down in the first place.

Rezing abilities shouldn’t affect self at the exception of fire attunement ele rez which require 6 sec cast to get a buff that will allow self rez (obviously will never happen in PvP)

NERF THIEVES!!!!!! Oh lol….you’re not takin’ bout thieves here…strange u.u

Anyway i don’t think it’s abused, i don’t see many people doing this…but for sure posting this on forum will make the number way bigger now xD

NevirSayDie.6235:

I’ve run elixer R from time to time, and it’s a lot of fun when you actually pull it off. But please remember the engineer relies on wacky, unpredictable tactics like this, since without them he would just be a weaker version of any other profession. Here’s why elixer R doesn’t merit the nerf bat:

—There are several counters to it. I suppose if you’re running a condition build with no knockbacks it would be difficult to compete with. I’m not sure we need to nerf it just for that, though.

—It fills one of the engineer’s three precious utility slots and has an 85 second cooldown. It had better be good. The engineer’s utility slots are more important than their weapon in most cases. Imagine giving up your second weapon slot for this skill.

—If I lose a fight once, I’ll probably lose it again after I get back up with only a few thousand hp.

—It’s not as frustrating to new players as getting ganked by burst builds; it’s also not very effective in top-level matches. Backstab got nerfed because it broke casual PvP; the flamethrower stability got nerfed because it broke top-level PvP. This doesn’t break either.

tl;dr? Roll an engineer and give it a try. It’s fun, but not game-breaking.

I have an engineer thank you. I know how to play it. I have every professions and I played them all in PvP.

-Several Counters? You have knockback/blowout… then what? There is nothing else to stop it. NOTHING.

-Fills one of the engineer precious utility… EVERY SINGLE UTILITY FOR EVERY PROFESSIONS ARE PRECIOUS. Engineer isn’t a special flower. And guess what… Elixir R is BY FAR the BEST elixir engineer has. It is actually the BEST PVP UTILITY the engineer has. Instant stun break with endurance refill. I’d kill to get that on any other professions.

-If you lose the fight once in 1v1 you should be DEAD. The opposing player won’t have any utilities or CD left to face you again. If you just get back on your feet like nothing happens. Even if it’s 30-40% of your health, you should not have been up in the first place. And even if the opposing player beat you again (because you are that bad) how much time will it take him just to get you down a second time? More then enough then it take for ANYONE to come and screw up your oppenent.

-What does this have to do with new players? Why do you bring backstab or flamethrower in this???? I’m talking about Elixir R and it’s blatant overpower broken mechanism of self-rez. Not very effective in top-level match? Of course the engineer will use the elixir as how it was intended, to rez allies. But that’s fine cause that’s what it’s supposed to be used for. But in pick-up games, using this elixir like that is simply abusing of how broken the stuff is in GW2 PvP. And yeah, I should totally make a comment about how save yourselves didn’t need a nerf because I was totally using it to buff myself rather then pull conditions off people. Cause save yourselves totally have something to do in this thread.

tl;dr? You are an engineer and I can tell by how you try to defend elixir R. Just like thieves defend their daggers.

Snapple: How can you even make a post saying that knockout/blowout are the only counters when in this very thread other counters have been pointed out?

Learn to read and learn to play.

in a 1v1 scenario, the engi has to dedicate a slot to an ability they can only use to its fullest when they’re about to die, while their opponent can (most likely) use all of their slot skills throughout the fight.

in no way is elixir r op. 85 second cd (before traiting lower) for something to res them once. meanwhile their opponent can counter it, heal up, drop fields to immediately combo finisher, etc.

the few times in my experience where this has actually won the fight for an engi i faced off against were times where his skill was higher than mine, or i made enough mistakes for it to be that close/to allow him to actually res from it. i have more than 1200 games logged. i can count on one hand the number of times its mattered in a 1v1. however, its use in a team situation (2v2’s come to mind) is at least A tier (S tier in some regards). don’t complain about 1v1 usage when team scenarios are where elixir r really shines.

and for the record, i haven’t played engi for 5+ weeks, i deleted mine for a ranger cuz i found it boring.

Yinn.6507:

1 – Knock out
2 – Don’t kill them for 6 seconds
3 – Zerg him

4. Poison them and do damage to keep them dead until the field is over. It lasts for 6s.

Seether.7285:

Snapple: How can you even make a post saying that knockout/blowout are the only counters when in this very thread other counters have been pointed out?

Learn to read and learn to play.

I know how to read. And none of theses “counters” are effective.
Zerging would require 3 people or more to focus on the engi just to stop the elixir R. Try to have 3 people at the same time right there to focus down the engi. Won’t ever happen.
Poison might be effective but it’s still not enough the Elixir R will have more then enough time to get the engi up if he use his pull. Unless you poison, stability and deal a massive amount of damage, there is no way to stop it with sheer numbers.

And @Project Shrine Maiden, elixir R doesn’t only have the throwable rez field. It also have one of the best engineer utility use. Instant stun break and endurance refill. And if with 1k2 games you find that to be a bad utility, I don’t know what to tell you.

snaplemouton.1294:

tl;dr? You are an engineer and I can tell by how you try to defend elixir R. Just like thieves defend their daggers.

I don’t usually get into forum “debates,” because they’re pretty pointless…but I feel like giving a couple clarifications for some reason:

—Anet rightly considers casual and competitive players when balancing. My point was that elixer R is not a “grief” tactic that scares away new players (such as backstab thieves), nor is it a skill that ruins competitive tournament balance (like the old juggernaut). It’s generally a useful utility that works as it was meant to work.

—I play engineer a lot but rarely take elixir R in tournament matches. I’m defending it because it’s a fun part of the profession, and because I feel like defending it.

—I agree, it would probably be OP on another profession, that already has two weapon sets and another mechanic. Utility is the engineer’s mechanic.

—For six professions, there are ten weapon skills and three utilities. For the ele, 20 weapon skills, three utilities. For the engineer? Five weapon skills, and anywhere from 8-22 utility skills. That’s why engineer’s utilities are more “precious,” although certainly they are important for every profession.

—To other posters: saying “learn to play” is not usually the best way of making a point.

And I play an engineer too. It was my first character and I played it during the 3 beta week-end. And I’m still playing engineer now.
If you want to talk about engineer balance then so be it. But this thread is about the self-rez part of elixir R. So just for you, I’ll keep going with the engi talk.
NO utility slots on engineer ARN’T more important then other professions. Not at all. You can say it however you want. The toolbelt skills give the engineer way more utilities then every other professions. And engi weapon skills are so blatant OP that you can apply bleeding, poison, confuse and blind with only your main-hand pistol. Add to that the traited conditions on attack like burning on crit or cripple when low health. With so much just from one weapon, you don’t need other weapons. The rifle got a root, a knockback and a leap. While if you look at the warrior… you have a cripple and a melee knockback.
And like I said and resaid in nearly every post on this thread. Elixir R is the best elixir for engineer from the utility slot. Using the toolbelt skill to self-rez yourself is just abusing this game broken mechanisms. Because yes. This game is filled with broken mechanisms that make the mist a place filled with either cheaters/bug abusers/exploiters or D/D thieves. Because people can’t play a game without taking the easy way to roflstomping others.
Why would you even try to defend it so much if you keep saying you don’t even use it or it’s useless in tPvP.

Thanks for humoring me. It’s relaxing to just vent opinions about a game because I know it’s not life-changing, just a fun escape.

I think we’ve been playing the engineer very differently so elixir R is probably a better choice for your build than mine. That said, I refer you to my previous two posts, as I believe they address your questions about why I chose to defend the skill and why I feel it fits with the engineer but not other professions. Thanks for a good discussion.

MarkedOne.1309:

Backstab is getting nerfed and this skill not?
Very nice logic, very nice.

You’re joking right?