Guild Wars 2

Balanced or not?

Whatever the answer is, I feel that ANet will soon enough obliterate that build.

well in closing… I hope it gets nerfed to oblivion.

the build has already been obliterated with the global internal cd on kit refinement imho – not to mention all the grenade nerfs that were made since release

currently the kit refinement nerf is bugged for the grenade kit and the tool kit so it still works but as soon as they fix it it will be broken

build is balanced 17K instant from thiefs / 7K from warris with that whirlwind thing even with almost 2K toughness npnpnp

@Razor

I don’t think it was overpowered.

One of the reason was that you didn’t see a suddenth influx in paid tournament of 100nade build. While you would see 2-3 Elem DD or 2 rangers or guardian.

Why? Because the combo was really hard to land on someone that knew about it. Myself, when I played again a 100nade, I knew what he was trying and could escape most of his attack.

I fail to see how it was different then any other burst.

A shatter mesmer would most of the time win a fight again a 100nade, simply because of the number of escape mecanism available.

100nade is a really good build, but I doubt it needed anymore attention then any other viable build.

Especially since I personnally think HGH is a better build for competition. Yet you don’t see anyone posting about it.

Kardiamond.6952:

One of the reason was that you didn’t see a suddenth influx in paid tournament of 100nade build. While you would see 2-3 Elem DD or 2 rangers or guardian.

Why? Because the combo was really hard to land on someone that knew about it. Myself, when I played again a 100nade, I knew what he was trying and could escape most of his attack.

I fail to see how it was different then any other burst.

Very well said!

reposted 4 emphasis

I once reflected a 100nades engi’s burst using Feedback (yes it can be cast while KD’ed). Many lulz were had.

The difference is the frequency of the burst. Plus you get damage for swapping kits lol. What if 100 blades just did damage when I pulled out my gs, and didn’t need frenzy buff to land it all?

That is the difference.
Tell me oh I need to be on top of them to land it, 100 blades is melee range, backstab is melee range.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

The difference is the frequency of the burst. Plus you get damage for swapping kits lol. What if 100 blades just did damage when I pulled out my gs, and didn’t need frenzy buff to land it all?

That is the difference.
Tell me oh I need to be on top of them to land it, 100 blades is melee range, backstab is melee range.

frequency of burst? you mean like the HB’s 8sec CD compared to 100nade’s 20+ sec CD?

Dmg from swapping kits? What class can’t grab a rune to do that? Ele’s can trait for dmg on attunement swap. What other class has to give up a utility slot just to have another weapon?

Are you really telling us that standing within 450 range of your target is comparable to landing a skill inside the character model? Which is effectively 0 range? Or that HB being able to hit up to 3 targets at a time with max dmg is comparable to only hitting one for max dmg with 100nades?

If 100nades is OP then Hundred Blades is just as OP. Claiming otherwise is just blatant double standard.

You realize that the 100 blades burst is with frenzy on a 60 sec cd. And you must be in melee range but bulls charge puts you effectively right on top of your target. Go bulls charge a golem, you are right on top of it, unless it glitches you past it. Damage from swapping kits is half the burst with a full grenade set. No other class can do that. Except maybe mesmer shattering while using distortion. Plus magnet will put you out of block, but bulls charge will not go through block.

100 blades may be 8sec cd, but the burst is certainly not as the bursting time relies on frenzy, which makes you even more vulnerable. And a slow blades take 4 secs while there is no such anology for 100 nades, except maybe being out of range and throwing nades at your target. And you can do half your burst while protecting yourself with small elixer (invulnerability). Our equivalent may be whirlwind but whirlwind is not a stun break.

The mechanics of the burst are different. Which is why grenades get nerfed from anet, because they see this from the data. We only see from our pov

Hundred blades is strong and 100 nades is strong, but 100 nades > 100 blades.

I think they are roughly equal. Good chunks of 100 Blades can be landed a lot more often then with just Frenzy up with things like the Flurry Immobilize. 100 Nades is still more frequent though given Net Shot and Magnet Pull can both set it up. The mobility of 100 Blades is far superior to that of 100 Nades though, and ultimately if it all lands the 100 Blades into Whirlwind damage is also superior to what 100 Nades can do.

Really, each build has a variety of advantages and disadvantages. In the end you hardly see much of either in competitive play, even if there are a select few such as Chaith and Fredzw.

Can’t even be compared with thieves’ burst or warrior’s 100blades imo.

When I face an engi I have to be expecting the pull at all times, because it’s instant and the reaction window is lower than 0.75 seconds I’m pretty sure. Other 100-0 bursts are 100% avoidable because the reaction time is higher. (100blades is predictable after the knockdown and it isn’t instant, even with frenzy it takes like 2 seconds to finish the channel. Thief is a different story: stealth? you know he’s coming. Basilisk’d? stun break before he backstabs).

Even if it fails, an engi can stall long enough with the snare, ridic knockback and offhand shield until it’s back up. And it’s not that much time until then.

My reflexes are pretty good but 100nades is just too unforgiving. Expecting huge nerfs.

Magnet is 1.25s cast(with a grossly visible visual affect) with a spec of delay inbetween completion and pull. If you want to cry OP, do please check your facts before doing so.

Razor.6392:

Even if it fails, an engi can stall long enough with the snare, ridic knockback and offhand shield until it’s back up. And it’s not that much time until then.

Almost all 100nades engis will carry a -450range knockback with rifle or shield(shield also has melee stun on top of knockback) and an immobilize or daze. They are basically the bane of melee. Dont get in melee range.

If you thought backstab (1-2 seconds) was quick and unable to react, 100 nades is like half the time for more damage. 100 blades is at least 2 seconds. 16 grenades hitting for 1k+ each gets up to 20k total damage from clicking a skill and swapping kits lol. Swapping isn’t even an action in this game, as you can do it while stunned.

Lord Aargadon.4135:

Magnet is 1.25s cast(with a grossly visible visual affect) with a spec of delay inbetween completion and pull. If you want to cry OP, do please check your facts before doing so.

Razor.6392:

Even if it fails, an engi can stall long enough with the snare, ridic knockback and offhand shield until it’s back up. And it’s not that much time until then.

Almost all 100nades engis will carry a -450range knockback with rifle or shield(shield also has melee stun on top of knockback) and an immobilize or daze. They are basically the bane of melee. Dont get in melee range.

I’m talking about when I’m already pulled.

Magnet is the initial move, it’s like bull’s charge.

If I get hit by bull’s charge or basilisk I’m not doomed yet, it’s the initial part of their burst combo.

But if I do get hit by magnet, the reaction window is incredibly small for how punishing it is to get hit by it. More punishing than BC or Basilisk for sure.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Swapping isn’t even an action in this game, as you can do it while stunned.

Do you have a point? A lot of instant cast skills can be cast while stunned. And yes its still an action as it does proc confusion -.-

Your’e taking account of setup up time to compare to 100nades, but aren’t taking account of setup time with 100nades. As well all know now, it requires going inside the player model via walking or pull, and then throwing grenades and swapping. Add cast time together, you’ve got anywhere between .5s setup if you simply find an innatentive person and walk into them, 2.25/3s setup via magnet then walk into character and then barrage, 1/+5s setup if you are using overcharge shot+immobilize(RNG throw elixer S).
Please do avoid skewing statistics in your favor only, and take account of all burst and their potential and weaknesses. 100nades has easy counters too you know.

Lord Aargadon.4135:

Almost all 100nades engis will carry a -450range knockback with rifle or shield(shield also has melee stun on top of knockback) and an immobilize or daze. They are basically the bane of melee. Dont get in melee range.

I’ll just swap to my rifle then…?

Razor.6392:

But if I do get hit by magnet, the reaction window is incredibly small for how punishing it is to get hit by it. More punishing than BC or Basilisk for sure.

It is very punishing, no dispute there. 2s +/- a little bit is how long you have against your typical BS thief once you eat Basilisk Venom. 1.25/.5s is how long you got once you get pulled by magnet, to which you need to be very ready for the stun break to get out of but you’re pretty much dead. 100nades is without a doubt, the fastest way to die via burst.

Sorry to leave it a cliffhanger, but Ill go consult with some buds that run burst and talk about the pros and cons of them all, I’ll try to answer more questions maybe later today or this week. But for now, fun must ensue, for the game is much more enjoyable than the forums.

Oh! real quick, Kit Refinement, the trait that causes the barrage, is currently borked. It now has a 10s global internal cooldown so you cannot use Toolkit(Magnet) and immediately swap to Grenade Kit for barrage, but the toolkit doesn’t activate the CD(bugged). Doesn’t affect us much, but we think it was Anets attempt to nerf 100nades, not sure as its a really akward change. Being honest, I expect it to get nerfed just like every other decent trait the engi has.

My point is it is not an instant cast skill. it is not a skill at all. swapping weapons, attunements, kits, etc are not skills or actions. Therefore it is not an instant cast skill first of all. You proc confusion because of the grenades being activated, not because you switched kits. Game mechanic of two different things.

So your telling me that the cast time of magnet is a part of the 100 nades burst? magnet is not the burst. just like bulls charge is not the burst. they are burst set up skills, but do not contribute the damage at all. another example. basilick venom is not the burst, it is a setup to the burst.

I am comparing burst and the time for damage to land. 100 nades< backstab<100 blades

This is not skewing numbers in any matter. It is just fact time to kill is longer. all three builds are glassy, so they are all squishy. engi burst requires less skills to activate and is shorter cd then the other two.

@Interpret

How do you explain the lack of presence of 100nade on the competitive scene?

Make no mistake, I wouldn’t mind a nerf to 100nades if engineer were the new FOTM.

But right now, we are the less played class, and one of the least represented class on the competitive scene.

If it was so strong, it would do like DD Elem : Everybody would play it.

You compare it to 100b warrior, and I did many duel with top 100b warrior. The outcome was around 50/50, and we were both about the same skill level.

Going melee again a warrior hurt, and you have to be with an engineer. You can also whirlwind, which remove half your HP on hit.

Create an engineer, and try to land it again a descent player. Tell me after how OP it is.

Land it on a DD Elem, on a shatter mesmer, on a necromancer, on a bunker Guardian with retaliation.

I have no problem with grenades being nerfed again. Then I could once again be the only engineer I’d see for several hours in PvP. It was fun while it lasted.

Make no mistake, I completely acknowledge Warrior’s are in a hard spot, but they can do a 100 Blades burst rather frequently as well with Flurry cancels. Frenzy isn’t needed to pull off the burst, it only enhances it to extremely high levels. The only superior burst build here is the Thief, but then a Thief is incredibly more fragile then either of them. There is more to the analysis then just the frequency at which these builds can perform their combos.

100 Nades and 100 Blades share the same weaknesses to burst avoidance. 100 Nades will execute it quicker, but 100 Blades does more damage overall if fully successful. They both have the obvious control tell that the damage is coming. 100 Blades has far superior mobility and disengage. 100 Nades has better damage avoidance. Again, there are plenty more factors here then just frequency.

I mean I think as a whole the extremes of burst and bunkering need to be toned down, but in the comparison between Burst builds department 100 Blades and 100 Nades are in the same boat. Both are kinda (in my opinion) overshadowed by things like a Shatter Mesmer or a Thief for that role though.

Glass cannon battles should be equal because you are both about the same thing. IMO, you don’t see many engis because the concept is harder. 100 blades burst was one of the first builds streamed and posted about since bwe and its well known. If it were 100 nades, we would have seen the same effect. Only a few people I know play engi, so you would naturally see less in competitive scene.
Example on EU, the main engi, Teldo, is he running burst? If you saw that maybe it would be more common. Players are very impressionable. It is why every war you see is like 90% chance they at 100 blades. Impression it is the only thing that works.

Comment on burst potential, the most I have ever done with 100 blades only is 20k on a glass mesmer. I have been taken from full health by a 100 nades while on my glass war total of 22k health. Max potential of both builds is close and should be. Just thing nades are a little more instant and scary. A flurry 100 blades is slow and there is reaction time.

100 Blades burst includes a Whirlwind though too, and I don’t think those numbers are very accurate for a common burst. Anecdotal evidence about maximums isn’t really the way to measure burst compared to each other. Given I’m going from memory too, but when I was witness to more of a balanced attempt at defining which one does more damage Hundred Blades was a fair bit larger then 100 Nades. I completely agree that Nades are more instantaneous when compared to the Flurry version, but again there is a lot more to the builds then just their build frequency, time to execute, and even total damage.

I just don’t think 100 Nades is as good as you claim, nor do I think 100 Blades is as bad as you claim. I agree that both aren’t exactly in the best of places though. I mean I used to play a Warrior too, I know Warriors need some serious changes. They are flat out in the worst spot competitively, but it’s of my opinion the comparison to 100 Nades is that they are about equal in value.

I ran 100 Nades and came to that conclusion. Teldo ran 100 Nades and came to that conclusion. That’s why I don’t run it anymore, and that’s part of why Teldo says he doesn’t run it anymore. Teldo did run it, and Chaith has popularized it as well. It’s a decently well known build. If it was actually overpowered, it would have remained as viral as it did in the initial blow out period.

Ayestes.1273:

100 Blades burst includes a Whirlwind though too, and I don’t think those numbers are very accurate for a common burst. Anecdotal evidence about maximums isn’t really the way to measure burst compared to each other. Given I’m going from memory too, but when I was witness to more of a balanced attempt at defining which one does more damage Hundred Blades was a fair bit larger then 100 Nades. I completely agree that Nades are more instantaneous when compared to the Flurry version, but again there is a lot more to the builds then just their build frequency, time to execute, and even total damage.

I just don’t think 100 Nades is as good as you claim, nor do I think 100 Blades is as bad as you claim. I agree that both aren’t exactly in the best of places though. I mean I used to play a Warrior too, I know Warriors need some serious changes. They are flat out in the worst spot competitively, but it’s of my opinion the comparison to 100 Nades is that they are about equal in value.

I ran 100 Nades and came to that conclusion. Teldo ran 100 Nades and came to that conclusion. That’s why I don’t run it anymore, and that’s part of why Teldo says he doesn’t run it anymore. Teldo did run it, and Chaith has popularized it as well. It’s a decently well known build. If it was actually overpowered, it would have remained as viral as it did in the initial blow out period.

I was going to say something, then Ayestes said was I was thinking way better then I could have.

Teldo and Chaith both did play burst a lot and streamed it, you even saw a wave of new engineer in free. Weird tho, it didn’t translate in paid. Because once in paid, people saw that it was not the magical burst they thought it would be.

Chaith even made a forum post explaining everything about the build. If the build had to be FOTM, it would have been. Everything was in place.

I don’t think 100 blades is in a bad spot per say. IMO, I think frenzy needs a buff. ATM no other GC has to suffer so much damage to deal the damage. Frenzy imo is another counter intuitive skill. What I mean is you are taking 150% damage to deal approximately 200% damage. When you think about it like that, it is an odd concept. Gw1 frenzy needed the balance because else you could just sit in it with a backline holding you up. But in case of GW2, there is no “backline” support and for the most part you are your own support. I think a reduction to 33% more damage or reworking to just losing some adrenaline or all of your endurance for example would accomplish the same thing.

point 2. Those who gain maximum benefit from using frenzy are generally the more glassy characters. From that point they already take more damage due to less toughness so it is like double punishment for building offensively. Damage from lower toughness and damage from doing more damage.

@Interrupt

I fail to see why you always compare engineer to warrior.

While engineer is classed like 5th-6th among the meta in the last poll, Warrior were nearly always placed 8th.

Warrior have it really hard right now, but I doubt nerfing the engineer will be of any help for the them.

100nades is what keeps engis viable- please don’t nerf it.

up until now i’ve had no problem with 100nades, but an hour ago i played a match on my necro (21k hp, 25 points in toughness tree) i was over 80% hp when WHAM, i’m down.
the same engineer kept doing it all game, it was no different than getting 1 shot by a thief with the special ability to click 3 buttons.
things like this should’nt happen, i understand glasscannons should kill fastER but instantly? come on…