Guild Wars 2

It’s basically a 4 second CC. It melts through stability charges

Holy Mother of God…. these complaints! I’ll kindly stand in the middle of the map, wave, and not press another key. Enjoy your free kill.

DeWolfe.2174:

Holy Mother of God…. these complaints! I’ll kindly stand in the middle of the map, wave, and not press another key. Enjoy your free kill.

Sorry, but that would be too OP and need nerfed too.

Well, there is much to be said, its hard to deny Celerifle is a bit too strong. The problem is the full array of what they do that causes an issue. But players (especially engineers who don’t want touched) can justify each thing as being “fine”, but the overall kit and effectiveness is undoubtedly too powerful. Being “weak to conditions” isn’t a free walk to do whatever you want, every build has weaknesses, and usually several but it doesn’t mean some things don’t deserve to be looked at.

Examples for Celerifle (and no, calling them out doesn’t mean they’re the ONLY build that happens to be a bit too strong)
- Too much CC. Slick shoes is incredibly powerful, but its also a low cooldown CC break and mobility skill. Rifle has 2 no cast time CCs, their heal has an incredibly short cast AND aoe knockdowns. It gets to be a bit silly when just about anything they do applies a CC also, because why not? Something somewhere should eventually have to give.

- Healing Turret. tends to be more effective than it should be and is an unjustifiably fast cast huge heal.

- Their damage in celestial is incredibly potent even without the need for might stacking. Its an unusual circumstance to have as much fire power and defense without a huge reliance on boons to make up for weaker stats. There is much to be said about Engineers ability to pull of Celestial while other classes cannot, the issue isn’t the amulet itself but perhaps a base-to-coefficient issue for engineer abilities.

- They have absurd cover, a single grenade can apply something like 5-6 conditions in a single throw. That cover begins to extend to the point of uncounterable, especially since most full-cleanses have really long cooldowns and grenades frequently stack amazing condition pressure.

ALL of that said, a nerf doesn’t have to hit like a rocket turret (hehe). Minor adjustments across the board could fairly easily fix some of these issues without deleting the engineer in the process, so long as it isn’t handled like the Turret “nerf”.

Some GENERAL IDEAS (don’t think too deeply into this)
- Reduce Confusion on Pry Bar to 4.
- Increase cast time of Healing Turret to 1 second.
- Poison* grenade is no longer unblockable.
- Either Net shot or OCS gain a .5 second semi-noticable cast. (If net, increase the missile speed)
- Rework IP to something more active.

And this doesn’t have to be without buffs, sure, add a bit of condi removal in replace for some needed tone-downs, and in the long run, people start being happier and when the dust settles, Engineer will still be just fine, just like Hambow was after an arguably much harsher nerf.

Toodles!

Edited to fix some stuff.

DeWolfe.2174:

Holy Mother of God…. these complaints! I’ll kindly stand in the middle of the map, wave, and not press another key. Enjoy your free kill.

Slick Shoes can burn through an antire 10 stack of Stability on someone just trying to walk out of it. The skill was powerful before the stability change and was frequently picked as an alternative to Elixir S by Engis. Now there’s no question what to pick between the two. Rightfully it should have been adjusted accordingly to the change so there aren’t dozens of small fields that are each an individual source of knockdown. Currently there is little counterplay to an Engineer using Slick Shoes on you. If Anet has any sense they will make the skill spawn a single big circle to bring it in line with similar skills such as Ring of Warding/Line of Warding/Unstable Ground.

The only issue I have with it is the CD, but the same can be said with their Gear shield.

Other than Gear shield’s lack of visual, they’re both fine imo.

The best and easiest change to slick shoes: no effect on targets standing still.

Counterplay: check.

Skill is still viable: check.

Yes slick shoes was overbuffed by both the cd changes and then changes to stability.

Before eng was more vulnerable to cc as well as being vulnerable to conds. Eng was a better balanced class because of these weaknesses. However, now eng has better cc capabilities, is less vulnerability to cc, and gets everything that comes along with celestial having too many stats.

Overcharged shot does too much on such a short cd without a tell.

I’m fine with the rest of eng stuffs (including turrets, but I wouldn’t care if they were nerfed a bit to help balance the lower skilled player stuffs).

ronpierce.2760:

Well, there is much to be said, its hard to deny Celerifle is a bit too strong. The problem is the full array of what they do that causes an issue. But players (especially engineers who don’t want touched) can justify each thing as being “fine”, but the overall kit and effectiveness is undoubtedly too powerful. Being “weak to conditions” isn’t a free walk to do whatever you want, every build has weaknesses, and usually several but it doesn’t mean some things don’t deserve to be looked at.

Examples for Celerifle (and no, calling them out doesn’t mean they’re the ONLY build that happens to be a bit too strong)
- Too much CC. Slick shoes is incredibly powerful, but its also a low cooldown CC break and mobility skill. Rifle has 2 no cast time CCs, their heal has an incredibly short cast AND aoe knockdowns. It gets to be a bit silly when just about anything they do applies a CC also, because why not? Something somewhere should eventually have to give.

- Healing Turret. tends to be more effective than it should be and is an unjustifiably fast cast huge heal.

- Their damage in celestial is incredibly potent even without the need for might stacking. Its an unusual circumstance to have as much fire power and defense without a huge reliance on boons to make up for weaker stats. There is much to be said about Engineers ability to pull of Celestial while other classes cannot, the issue isn’t the amulet itself but perhaps a base-to-coefficient issue for engineer abilities.

- They have absurd cover, a single (unblockable) grenade can apply something like 6-7 conditions in a single throw. That cover begins to extend to the point of uncounterable, especially since most full-cleanses have really long cooldowns and grenades frequently stack amazing condition pressure.

ALL of that said, a nerf doesn’t have to hit like a rocket turret (hehe). Minor adjustments across the board could fairly easily fix some of these issues without deleting the engineer in the process, so long as it isn’t handled like the Turret “nerf”.

Some GENERAL IDEAS (don’t think too deeply into this)
- Reduce Confusion on Pry Bar to 4.
- Increase cast time of Healing Turret to 1 second.
- Frost grenade is no longer unblockable.
- Either Net shot or OCS gain a .5 second semi-noticable cast. (If net, increase the missile speed)
- Rework IP to something more active.

And this doesn’t have to be without buffs, sure, add a bit of condi removal in replace for some needed tone-downs, and in the long run, people start being happier and when the dust settles, Engineer will still be just fine, just like Hambow was after an arguably much harsher nerf.

Toodles!

the engie hate is real, even after turret nerf announced. look what your turrets have done anet…. you have scarred this man

Leothen.7421:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, there is much to be said, its hard to deny Celerifle is a bit too strong. The problem is the full array of what they do that causes an issue. But players (especially engineers who don’t want touched) can justify each thing as being “fine”, but the overall kit and effectiveness is undoubtedly too powerful. Being “weak to conditions” isn’t a free walk to do whatever you want, every build has weaknesses, and usually several but it doesn’t mean some things don’t deserve to be looked at.

Examples for Celerifle (and no, calling them out doesn’t mean they’re the ONLY build that happens to be a bit too strong)
- Too much CC. Slick shoes is incredibly powerful, but its also a low cooldown CC break and mobility skill. Rifle has 2 no cast time CCs, their heal has an incredibly short cast AND aoe knockdowns. It gets to be a bit silly when just about anything they do applies a CC also, because why not? Something somewhere should eventually have to give.

- Healing Turret. tends to be more effective than it should be and is an unjustifiably fast cast huge heal.

- Their damage in celestial is incredibly potent even without the need for might stacking. Its an unusual circumstance to have as much fire power and defense without a huge reliance on boons to make up for weaker stats. There is much to be said about Engineers ability to pull of Celestial while other classes cannot, the issue isn’t the amulet itself but perhaps a base-to-coefficient issue for engineer abilities.

- They have absurd cover, a single (unblockable) grenade can apply something like 6-7 conditions in a single throw. That cover begins to extend to the point of uncounterable, especially since most full-cleanses have really long cooldowns and grenades frequently stack amazing condition pressure.

ALL of that said, a nerf doesn’t have to hit like a rocket turret (hehe). Minor adjustments across the board could fairly easily fix some of these issues without deleting the engineer in the process, so long as it isn’t handled like the Turret “nerf”.

Some GENERAL IDEAS (don’t think too deeply into this)
- Reduce Confusion on Pry Bar to 4.
- Increase cast time of Healing Turret to 1 second.
- Frost grenade is no longer unblockable.
- Either Net shot or OCS gain a .5 second semi-noticable cast. (If net, increase the missile speed)
- Rework IP to something more active.

And this doesn’t have to be without buffs, sure, add a bit of condi removal in replace for some needed tone-downs, and in the long run, people start being happier and when the dust settles, Engineer will still be just fine, just like Hambow was after an arguably much harsher nerf.

Toodles!

the engie hate is real, even after turret nerf announced. look what your turrets have done anet…. you have scarred this man

Yea I agree all of that is a bit much. I’m just in favor of just undoing the buffs that were not asked for nor needed and giving ocs some short tell or a longer cd for better counterplay.

ronpierce.2760:

- Healing Turret. tends to be more effective than it should be and is an unjustifiably fast cast huge heal.

- Their damage in celestial is incredibly potent even without the need for might stacking. Its an unusual circumstance to have as much fire power and defense without a huge reliance on boons to make up for weaker stats. There is much to be said about Engineers ability to pull of Celestial while other classes cannot, the issue isn’t the amulet itself but perhaps a base-to-coefficient issue for engineer abilities.

- They have absurd cover, a single (unblockable) grenade can apply something like 6-7 conditions in a single throw. That cover begins to extend to the point of uncounterable, especially since most full-cleanses have really long cooldowns and grenades frequently stack amazing condition pressure.

ALL of that said, a nerf doesn’t have to hit like a rocket turret (hehe). Minor adjustments across the board could fairly easily fix some of these issues without deleting the engineer in the process, so long as it isn’t handled like the Turret “nerf”.

Some GENERAL IDEAS (don’t think too deeply into this)
- Reduce Confusion on Pry Bar to 4.
- Increase cast time of Healing Turret to 1 second.
- Frost grenade is no longer unblockable.
- Either Net shot or OCS gain a .5 second semi-noticable cast. (If net, increase the missile speed)
- Rework IP to something more active.

And this doesn’t have to be without buffs, sure, add a bit of condi removal in replace for some needed tone-downs, and in the long run, people start being happier and when the dust settles, Engineer will still be just fine, just like Hambow was after an arguably much harsher nerf.

Toodles!

Heal turret is a nice heal but you can still prevent it unlike..I don’t know..heal signet? Signet of restoration? Also it’s the only condition removal beside rng transmute so many times engis are forced to burn it just to remove condis.
What grenade applies 6-7 conditions?
Freeze grenade isn’t unblockable.
Net shot is only arguably undodgeable in melee. And that has to do with the fact that for some reason the net animation begins to be visible after around 100 range or so.

My only advice for you baby

robertul.3679:

snip

That was my bad, Poison Grenade is unblockable*. (Arguably worse)

Also, the high conditions isn’t from a grenade directly. It’s a mixture of Sigils+Trait procs. However, I’ll just recant that statement in favor of more popular “meta” builds these days that run Accelerant Packed Turrets now instead of Shrapnel.

As for the comparisons, classes can’t be 1:1 compared like that, I’m simply stating pieces that can be tweaked that lend a hand in the issues with engineers, I’m not saying all should happen, I’m giving examples. Point is, however, that Celestial Rifle engineer is incredibly powerful, and it is beyond me how someone can deny that. Their Vuln-on-Explosion coverage alone is amazingly potent in covering condition, especially since it isn’t chance-based, its heal (and the way engineer works) tends to stand out far more than Healing signet (post nerf). And so on, too tired to really argue right now honestly.

And again, I tried to make it very clear, there ARE issues with other classes. Passing the blame doesn’t fix anything. Sometimes its okay to get nerfed once in a while, as long as its handled properly and tries to get at the roots of the issues and not ripping the rug out from under the build entirely.

DeWolfe.2174:

Holy Mother of God…. these complaints! I’ll kindly stand in the middle of the map, wave, and not press another key. Enjoy your free kill.

the engineers were indirectly buffed thru the stab changes. and i think anyone would agree that letting engineers cc you even more so than before is a poor idea.

As a simple fix to slick shoes would be the same they made to FGS and other burning paths:
Just make oil slicks not stack on top of each one – bam, problem fixed.

Timston.1976:

My only advice for you baby

Learn to printscreen. Ty for a good laugh tho, people still uses phone to make screenshots on a pc..lul Ps slick shoes cannot be dodged.

ronpierce.2760:

Also, the high conditions isn’t from a grenade directly. It’s a mixture of Sigils+Trait procs. However, I’ll just recant that statement in favor of more popular “meta” builds these days that run Accelerant Packed Turrets now instead of Shrapnel.

As for the comparisons, classes can’t be 1:1 compared like that, I’m simply stating pieces that can be tweaked that lend a hand in the issues with engineers, I’m not saying all should happen, I’m giving examples. Point is, however, that Celestial Rifle engineer is incredibly powerful, and it is beyond me how someone can deny that. Their Vuln-on-Explosion coverage alone is amazingly potent in covering condition, especially since it isn’t chance-based, its heal (and the way engineer works) tends to stand out far more than Healing signet (post nerf). And so on, too tired to really argue right now honestly.

And again, I tried to make it very clear, there ARE issues with other classes. Passing the blame doesn’t fix anything. Sometimes its okay to get nerfed once in a while, as long as its handled properly and tries to get at the roots of the issues and not ripping the rug out from under the build entirely.

Very well said. I also think engies are a little over-tuned right now. While most engineers will tell you focus-fire can be an issue, damage is so high atm that its an issue for just about everyone. I also think the examples for changes you gave are very good areas that can be addressed. Specifically healing turret, that is a heal that only players who have played nothing but engie will defend. It has such a short cast time it is nearly impossible to interrupt (unlike consume conditions, for instance), has the highest hp/s of any heal (including healing signet), gives a huge water field on a class that has lots of finishers (so you get extra regen or water blasts), and is a burst heal (so its not as vulnerable to spike damage as something like healing signet or signet of restoration can leave warrior/ele). It is easily the best heal in-game and has no real draw-back. I think a real cast-time would make it closer to balanced.

more like “sick shoes” cause im sick of ’em

complaining about turret engi is one thing
complaining about celerifle is another…
if you’re having trouble with cele rifles you need to re-evaluate your build, or how you go about fighting a cele engi…

I’ll just repost what i said in another thread some time ago.

Making it ineffective while standing still would be the laziest counter ever seen, though – one could avoid that by literally doing nothing.
Thus i would rather propose to add another layer of complexity to the skill.
Alas, giving the engineer some interactions with the oil via the use of some fire-based skills.
By using one of the aforemented fire-based skills (blowtorch or flame jet, for example) the oil would be ignited, prompting some animation on the poodles (it could have a duration of half or three quarters of a second). It is important to point out that crossing them at this point is safe; it will cause no knockdown, as the oil just started to burn, and will cause no damage either;
After that time, though, the oil will burn and cause damage and/or burning (either for some little time, or in a single blow; imho, the latter solution is the better one, else it would just clutter the terrain with little aoes).
By doing something similar, there would be quite some positive effects on gameplay.
First, there is counterplay for the oil slicks- standing still – albeit quite an easy one; but there is also counter-counterplay on the engineer part that can burn the area and force the opponent to either react properly or take damage.
Obviously, this also means that the engineer can’t just spam skills at random. If he wants to ignite the oil later, he will need some skills that can do so; likewise, if he wants to knock down an enemy, using a fire skill at the wrong time would foil his plan.
Also, it would be doable in a gadget build as well, via rocket boots or rocket kick; thus adding some value to an underused build.

It should instantly remove all stability on guardian and warriors that would be balanced.