Guild Wars 2

Going to attempt to keep this short

The Problems

1. There are no real barriers to entry in PvP ie you don’t have to level, so any build that gain favorability may be played immediately.

2. Build diversity is actually rather limited due to game type (point hold) many builds that may be competitive in other areas are not seen in Spvp

3. Because the trend is that players like to win, they seem to have no issue switching professions.

4. This creates an environment where certain builds may become popular over night and all forms of arena become flooded with them.

5. This may lead to a trend of nerfing those builds and players will then migrate to the next best possible option. (we already see this)

6. We have seen this happen consistently thus far and will likely see it happen in the future.

The Solutions

1. Keep nerfing builds as they gain traction. The problem with this strategy is that it doesn’t not deal with the core problem at all. It doesn’t not stop the trend and may force to community into a policy of not sharing builds for fear of being nerfed.

2. Do nothing. Arguably you could leave the situation alone and leave it to the community to find counters to certain builds. The problem is this puts pressure on us to not only counter the builds but to not join the fold.

3. Make more builds viable. Which sounds like the simplest solution as more options will allow more counter and more strategy. The problem here is due to the delicate nature of Spvp a small buff to something obscure could lead the the problem we already face.

4. More game types. However Anet has said they are shooting for “e-sport” and don’t want multiple game types just maps. Even with more game types the scenario could continue to play out ie run one build here and another there both very popular.

I have no 100% full proof solution.

Edit

FOTM = flavor of the month (moment) etc couldn’t put it in the title due to character limitations.

Problem: stale repetitive pvp because only burst and bunker/conditions builds are viable.
Solution: Increase effectiveness of toughness and make it mitigate percentage of condition damage and reduce duration and effectiveness of boons.Presto, no more burst spammers and unkillable bunker/conditions spammers and, as a bonus, no need to nerf anyone.

Khyras.8021:

Problem: stale repetitive pvp because only burst and bunker/conditions builds are viable.
Solution: Increase effectiveness of toughness and make it mitigate percentage of condition damage and reduce duration and effectiveness of boons.Presto, no more burst spammers and unkillable bunker/conditions spammers and, as a bonus, no need to nerf anyone.

Yes pls Anet make so that toughness mitigate condition dmg and fare better against burst builds ( thief/mesmer can still crit you for 8k+ even with 1800 toughness)

Toughness could do a better job against Direct Damage I agree, but having toughness effect conditions would just be silly. Conditions are supposed to be the counter to high toughness, and tbh, aren’t that bad.

I couldn’t agree more OP. There is no reward to sticking to a class, i.e maining, and I resent the fact I have to change the class I want to play in order to be more effective.

FotM’s will not ruin the game and will not necessarily force constant balancing – it’s a natural part of the metagame and will keep things interesting.

Even if you have a perfectly balanced game, certain tendencies in builds will be established, just because ppl tend to copy builds of pros. Therefore, a metagame is being created and stabilized. Until ppl try to counter the metagame or use different builds simply because they are creative and to try out sth. new. Ppl will copy it and the metagame will shift again. After a while (if there weren’t no balance-changes), ppl might return to the old builds, because the current metagame might favour the old builds and without major balance-changes, they will still be viable.

This is the cyclical nature of a Metagame and we see it in tons of very successful e-Sport Titles like SC2, SC:BW etc.

This will also create an interesting dynamic between playstyles on different servers, where maybe another meta was established (because of timezones and the current popularity of streams (not neccesarily in GW2, but gaming in general), US-players could develop a very different Meta of Player on EUServers).

IMHO, it was an incredibly good choice to not hop on the WoW-bandwagon and stay true to the GW1-PvP-Philosophy, where you could play every class in PvP without having to go through gruesome PvE first.

You cannot make a serious e-Sport-Title that requires you to farm gear first. It didn’t even work all to well with WoW and that thing had like a bazillion players and every sponsor basically threw money at ppl to make WoW an e-Sport, just because of the player-base.

*Edit@ People saying that theres no real reward in sticking to a class: Well, theres no real reward for sticking with Zerg in SC2, or sticking with a certain position in HoN, Dota2 or LoL, nor sticking with a Char in a Fighting-Game…. other than, well; getting better at playing it. I see that GW2 pvp might feel strange for ppl used to other MMO’s, but that’s how competetive Games should work: You should be able to jump in and try every build or strategy you like, the only restriction being your skill.

PowerBottom.5796:

FotM’s will not ruin the game and will not necessarily force constant balancing – it’s a natural part of the metagame and will keep things interesting.

Even if you have a perfectly balanced game, certain tendencies in builds will be established, just because ppl tend to copy builds of pros. Therefore, a metagame is being created and stabilized. Until ppl try to counter the metagame or use different builds simply because they are creative and to try out sth. new. Ppl will copy it and the metagame will shift again. After a while (if there weren’t no balance-changes), ppl might return to the old builds, because the current metagame might favour the old builds and without major balance-changes, they will still be viable.

This is the cyclical nature of a Metagame and we see it in tons of very successful e-Sport Titles like SC2, SC:BW etc.

This will also create an interesting dynamic between playstyles on different servers, where maybe another meta was established (because of timezones and the current popularity of streams (not neccesarily in GW2, but gaming in general), US-players could develop a very different Meta of Player on EUServers).

IMHO, it was an incredibly good choice to not hop on the WoW-bandwagon and stay true to the GW1-PvP-Philosophy, where you could play every class in PvP without having to go through gruesome PvE first.

You cannot make a serious e-Sport-Title that requires you to farm gear first. It didn’t even work all to well with WoW and that thing had like a bazillion players and every sponsor basically threw money at ppl to make WoW an e-Sport, just because of the player-base.

*Edit@ People saying that theres no real reward in sticking to a class: Well, theres no real reward for sticking with Zerg in SC2, or sticking with a certain position in HoN, Dota2 or LoL, nor sticking with a Char in a Fighting-Game…. other than, well; getting better at playing it. I see that GW2 pvp might feel strange for ppl used to other MMO’s, but that’s how competetive Games should work: You should be able to jump in and try every build or strategy you like, the only restriction being your skill.

It’s an interesting point and I agree with what you say. The only thing I disagree with is your last statement…..competitive games exists outside of GW2, I don’t believe that you can say that WOW, for example, doesn’t have highly skilled elite players, and the WOW system works for them. The way MMO’s approach competitiveness can be seen as a metagame in and of itself with GW2 taking a different build.

Why nerf builds when you can buff every build? Nerfing makes people whine and leave game. Buffing the weaker classes makes people happy.

Flavors of the month are common in any mmo. LoL still has imbalances when champions are released, champions no one uses, favoritism of champions and cookie cutter builds, limited game types, and is still one of the most popular games on twitch.

PowerBottom.5796:

FotM’s will not ruin the game and will not necessarily force constant balancing – it’s a natural part of the metagame and will keep things interesting.

Even if you have a perfectly balanced game, certain tendencies in builds will be established, just because ppl tend to copy builds of pros. Therefore, a metagame is being created and stabilized. Until ppl try to counter the metagame or use different builds simply because they are creative and to try out sth. new. Ppl will copy it and the metagame will shift again. After a while (if there weren’t no balance-changes), ppl might return to the old builds, because the current metagame might favour the old builds and without major balance-changes, they will still be viable.

This is the cyclical nature of a Metagame and we see it in tons of very successful e-Sport Titles like SC2, SC:BW etc.

This will also create an interesting dynamic between playstyles on different servers, where maybe another meta was established (because of timezones and the current popularity of streams (not neccesarily in GW2, but gaming in general), US-players could develop a very different Meta of Player on EUServers).

IMHO, it was an incredibly good choice to not hop on the WoW-bandwagon and stay true to the GW1-PvP-Philosophy, where you could play every class in PvP without having to go through gruesome PvE first.

You cannot make a serious e-Sport-Title that requires you to farm gear first. It didn’t even work all to well with WoW and that thing had like a bazillion players and every sponsor basically threw money at ppl to make WoW an e-Sport, just because of the player-base.

*Edit@ People saying that theres no real reward in sticking to a class: Well, theres no real reward for sticking with Zerg in SC2, or sticking with a certain position in HoN, Dota2 or LoL, nor sticking with a Char in a Fighting-Game…. other than, well; getting better at playing it. I see that GW2 pvp might feel strange for ppl used to other MMO’s, but that’s how competetive Games should work: You should be able to jump in and try every build or strategy you like, the only restriction being your skill.

While your point is well thought out you miss a few things I said. The first is the fact that builds are tailored around the purpose of our spvp ie holding a point, and roaming to take a point. Because of that “interesting” builds are some what useless. While in PvE you maybe able to use something out of left field, in spvp there is a goal very specific goal. While its true there are many builds in competitive matches outside hot join its still more bunker/burst roam. To put it very bluntly you can bring your interesting build to the table and proceed to get your behind handed to you.

The other thing you say about no balance changes (see solution #2 in my OP) puts pressure on the community to change and not be tempted to ride the wave to victory. With an mmo this big the majority will ride the wave.

The second is more of the nature of the beast we call communication. Because we communicate so well builds get passed around at a very fast speed. There is no real local flavor meta is meta for the entire game unless a guild decides to make there knowledge tacit but even then analysis can be done and the build figured out easily.

The Meta game in gw1 revolved around strong solo builds and strong group builds but there are hundreds of them. The difference between this game and gw1 is options quite frankly. While you had less skills on the bar in gw1 execution played a more vital role, and many builds were hard counter able like 55 monk meets dervish or boon ripper mes. However, in this game hard counters are hard to come by. What we see here is a trend of position holder position taker and that’s about it. Lets forget about the fact of being able to mix and match classes, the 1319 different skills.

TBH I feel it insults the legacy of gw1 once you compare the meta-game here to what it is there http://www.gwpvx.com/PvX_wiki

its almost mandatory to role a cheapskate burster/bunker at the moment.
me for example, i REALLY wanted my ranger to be my main,
but you spend the whole game tickling the bunkers or getting one shot by the bursters,
so i logged off, made a guardian and now i’m pretty dam unkillable,
raking in the Glory points but it’s getting stale,
so i switch to my ranger, enjoy a game or two being roflstomped by the backstab thieves and unkillable bunkers then i’m forced to switch back to my own cheap skating guardian / thief to enjoy spamming backstab and heartseeker like a pro…

there certainly needs to be a massive pvp update to make all specs of all classes viable in pvp.
ironic considering the adverts were all focused on the “play the game your way!” idea lol

i remember on GW1 i used to do conquest (AB) as a necro with ranger’s Beast mastery, such an outside-of-the-box idea but it worked really well, i truly hope Anet can bring GW2 up to the level where we can be as outside-of-the-box and not just get roflstomped by the guy spamming the “in-thing”.

FotM is never a bad thing as long as it isn’t crazy OP.
eg.
- running dual consc guard on khylo is meta but in no way totally game breaking
- the guardian block glitch being abused by 2-3 guards in a team was completely stupid

The big problems are:
- One badly designed game type
- Badly designed game mechanics which only force certain builds
- You can change builds/weps/chars while in the middle of a tournament match
- Pathetically low skill ceiling and floor

And of course the worst thing about this is that the problems in GW1 were minor (minor imbalances that people complained a ton about) which, when compared to gw2, end up being negligible. And you sort’ve look back and go hold on… you’ve already done this the right way why’d you decide to screw it up?

GW1 had metas, and it didn’t take from the game (bar R/A and a few stupid anet mistakes) it was essential, it actually helps newer players become better (they can focus on their play not their build). I’m really tired and not going to say much but I’ll respond to some other points.

WoW’s system is badly designed for a competitive sport, even their dev’s agree with that. Because that gear hurdle has to be achieved before they compete, it rules out hardcore pvpers who don’t want to pve.

GW1 meta revolved around any number of things, it could be either very strong 8v8/7v7 or strong splits of 4-4, etc. Singular builds only made a difference in balanced metas where teams ran similar builds. Not to mention this was amazing how one player could change the momentum of the fight so much.

Here’s another big point, if you don’t have some different/less intense gameplay you won’t have casual players play and therefore 0 e-sport (like GW2 will be because the dev’s don’t listen to anybody) and barely any pvpers. As you can see from above some people would run crazy builds, and you can still have hardcore teams in the less intense arenas. For example I had a few teams were we played only hardcore AB and I can tell you in no match up would you ever use a pet (bar dongway/iway/roaway in HA) but people can anyway because the skill difference is what defines players in GW1 not builds which it does in GW2.

i would like to say from some one who thought that some builds were op in tpvp until i faced other better players who were using the same build as me and rolled me. (payne,jumper, creed) until then i realized, wait i just need to learn how to really play my build. (backstab) From then till now i’ve learnt thief v thief is an amazing matchup when vs players of = skill or higher than oneself. Only people refusing to learn how to get better are complaining the balance right now is actually really nice. the variety of builds is actually quite amazing. off the top of my head i can think of 3 viable specs for thief 2 of which accomplish the same goal and the third something completely different.