Guild Wars 2

But well.. i still think that an OP thief is better than a useless one. It can potentially keep some other classes in check and make the players be more aware to their surrounding in a match and require them to pay attention, as i said before… it makes me really sad to see how brain-dead this meta is, and how huge is the difference between the classes, efficiency-wise. I’d like to see balance in a state that you can actually play every class that you want and be viable/good enough. I can’t see it happens in the foreseeable future, but one can dream… :/

Supreme.3164:

extreme bunker exist because those professions can’t play extreme burst

This is still false as post June 26th patch every class (with the exception of elementalist) could play burst fairly well. The current meta was not directly caused by extreme burst. It was due to lack of balance and forethought on Anet’s part concerning certain skills & traits.

Supreme.3164:

Aomine.5012:

Supreme.3164:

Aomine.5012:

Supreme.3164:

BlackBeard.2873:

Arken.3725:

2 cents.

If all you do is nerf those 2, you’ll still have Tempests/Druids bunkering it up like before with Scrappers providing similar sustain with higher damage-output. Gotta look at the whole picture, not just these 2.

Agree with you here. EVERY SINGLE ELITE SPEC does too much, probably even berserker (although it is hard to tell b/c that mythical beast is rarely seen). If you nerf just the top dog, then the mantle just shifts slightly to the next guy and you don’t really change anything.

However, at least things like druid/tempest/scrapper etc. get their defense with a little more counterplay (not hard mitigation in the form of evades/blocks/invulns/etc.) making them succumb to focus-fire a bit easier. That isn’t to say they aren’t over-tuned, but since there is a stubborn refusal to do anything but the most token of balances, I’d say this the bare minimum.

At the very least, however, they should make well of precog give invuln and prevent capture-point contribution. That would at least make bunker mesmers much worse at holding 1vX for so long without getting decapped.

You can’t simply nerf bunkers while leaving the burst builds untouched, that’s just ridiculous

-Dragon Hunter, Burn Guardian, Thief, Chronoshatter, Reaper…these are not gone anywhere, they’re still here with us

Extreme bunkers exist as a consequence of Extreme Burst

Na, the current top bunker builds can handle any burst build 1 v 2 pretty handily because it uses active invulnerable/evade/block on a short cool down or some passive perma -40% damage, passive aura spam, passive on swap trait/sigil, passive heal, passive immune cond to soak up everything.

The broken part is those bunkers not only hold well against 1 v x, it also is very good at 1 v 1. If you use a non-bunker against them, you not only can’t kill them, they also have quite a high chance to kill you instead.

Best example is Tempest VS Thief/Daredevil. Tempest can soak up everything thief throws at them , they can also easily use their passive proc and aoe spam to kill thief passively. If you don’t believe, que up your thief right now in ranked battle and see how it fair right now.

The question is..can you play a non bunker ele in general and not being one shotted by a thief or other power build? In three years nobody has been able to do that, no even TOP ESL players like @Zoose and @Phantaram.
But apparently being unable to play a non bunker ele …it’s ok, it’s balanced.

Here the best quote you’ll ever read on the forum

Vague Memory.2817
Anet trys to balance using self-interested views from the forum rather than being more objective, that is why after a balance patch things just get worse. There are blatant changes that need to be made that focuses PvP on player skill rather than passive or op effects, but they don’t have the courage to make these changes because of the outrage from people who will lose their advantage over others. Anet’s response is to even things out by giving everyone OPness which unbalances things even more.

So the solution is throwing a D/D 2.0 to Tempest.

Make sense.

But all being said, I do like Tempest very much and don’t want them lose this bunker ability that’d make Tempest suffer in HoT maps or raid.
Wish Anet just freaking separate pve and pvp skills already and nerf everything to ground in pvp for the balance.

What kind of answer is even this?

You answer to a question with a rhetoric

LoL… you are incredible. So he did answer to a rhetorical question with a rhetorical answer? :p

Did you even read Ross Biddle.2367’s answer ?

Where are the mesmer and rev change?

lol at this update

yanoch.7051:

Where are the mesmer and rev change?

They did manage to nerf (OK, OK, bug fix) necros though…

yanoch.7051:

Where are the mesmer and rev change?

“As a note, not all of the changes listed above will be in the first build on December 15, but instead in a hotfix that will happen shortly afterwards.”

Man, you guys need to learn to read.

can’t believe they didn’t nerf rev, for real.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

yanoch.7051:

Where are the mesmer and rev change?

“As a note, not all of the changes listed above will be in the first build on December 15, but instead in a hotfix that will happen shortly afterwards.”

Man, you guys need to learn to read.

Since when does “not all” mean the same as “none”?

Rav.9475:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

yanoch.7051:

Where are the mesmer and rev change?

“As a note, not all of the changes listed above will be in the first build on December 15, but instead in a hotfix that will happen shortly afterwards.”

Man, you guys need to learn to read.

Since when does “not all” mean the same as “none”?

It’ll be in a hotfix.
Now chill.

They’ve added another change, well of precog to now apply distortion and thus prevent point capture:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Upcoming-Balance-Changes-Week-of-December-14-2015/page/5#post5857066

morrolan.9608:

They’ve added another change, well of precog to now apply distortion and thus prevent point capture:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Upcoming-Balance-Changes-Week-of-December-14-2015/page/5#post5857066

Thank kitten.

I feel anet has an issue with Mesmers and will make targetted attacks until we’re trash tier again. I’m pretty upset about this patch.

Ithilwen.1529:

I feel anet has an issue with Mesmers and will make targetted attacks until we’re trash tier again. I’m pretty upset about this patch.

lol

Ithilwen.1529:

I feel anet has an issue with Mesmers and will make targetted attacks until we’re trash tier again. I’m pretty upset about this patch.

The change to distortion is a change from evade to invulnerable which in general is better, the downside is it prevents point capture. So its not a general nerf in terms of say power or survivability its only a nerf to point capture. I don’t see how this is reverting mesmers to ‘trash tier’. In fact from what I have read on the mesmer forum over the last few weeks many mesmers suggested it as a solution to the current issues the build is causing in sPvP

Ithilwen.1529:

I feel anet has an issue with Mesmers and will make targetted attacks until we’re trash tier again. I’m pretty upset about this patch.

Literally no one agrees with you.

The nerfs they did were fair and reasonable in PvP.

PvE is another beast entirely. I won’t speak for them.

But as far as PvP is concerned, this was necessary for the health of the game.

WoP was a 5 man invuln that still contributed to cap.
That’s simply ridiculous.

Supreme.3164:

BlackBeard.2873:

Arken.3725:

2 cents.

If all you do is nerf those 2, you’ll still have Tempests/Druids bunkering it up like before with Scrappers providing similar sustain with higher damage-output. Gotta look at the whole picture, not just these 2.

Agree with you here. EVERY SINGLE ELITE SPEC does too much, probably even berserker (although it is hard to tell b/c that mythical beast is rarely seen). If you nerf just the top dog, then the mantle just shifts slightly to the next guy and you don’t really change anything.

However, at least things like druid/tempest/scrapper etc. get their defense with a little more counterplay (not hard mitigation in the form of evades/blocks/invulns/etc.) making them succumb to focus-fire a bit easier. That isn’t to say they aren’t over-tuned, but since there is a stubborn refusal to do anything but the most token of balances, I’d say this the bare minimum.

At the very least, however, they should make well of precog give invuln and prevent capture-point contribution. That would at least make bunker mesmers much worse at holding 1vX for so long without getting decapped.

You can’t simply nerf bunkers while leaving the burst builds untouched, that’s just ridiculous

-Dragon Hunter, Burn Guardian, Thief, Chronoshatter, Reaper…these are not gone anywhere, they’re still here with us

Extreme bunkers exist as a consequence of Extreme Burst

Agreed. They need to nerf EVERYTHING and turn back the clock on their excessive power-creep quite a bit. I didn’t mean to imply only bunkery stuff was OP – it ALL is. It is just that right now the bunkery stuff is slightly more OP than the bursty garbage.

Thanks for the change to well of precog Anet!

Lyger.5429:

Supreme.3164:

extreme bunker exist because those professions can’t play extreme burst

This is still false as post June 26th patch every class (with the exception of elementalist) could play burst fairly well. The current meta was not directly caused by extreme burst. It was due to lack of balance and forethought on Anet’s part concerning certain skills & traits.

We have hundreds of MMO nowadays, all different in gameplay, art and design…still they all share one common aspect: *the inability of players to recognize their own incompetence when it comes to defeat

I was actually referring to the shield block duration being reduced. I guess I didn’t make that clear.

I reiterate, ANET seems to have a long standing issue with Mesmers being successful. This is especially true if a dev happens to be defeated by one.

Xillllix.3485:

It’s the ccs on the guards trap they need to nerf to the ground. Being stuck in a tiny circle for 5 seconds twice then getting pulled into more cc traps kittening sucks and is turning what was once an eSport into a joke.

There’s a ton of ways to avoid DH traps, like every other trap in the game.
DH is quite easy to play around, while a lot of other classes are pretty much invulnerable atm.

And the guy complaining about bursty builds and thieves… Thieves?
Atm thieves are pretty much a nuisance, they’re in place where their only contribution to conquest is to stealth cap or try to kill a lord, because otherwise, doing anything that forces them to stay at a point against another player ends up in their death.

And while that is a awesome tactical choice if it were a choice, its bad when thief has only that option for playing with, which means that if the other team is playing even slightly defensive (which they will in current meta) thief is useless.

In fact just the other day i was playing in a pug on ranked, there was this annoying thief that was constantly running from fights and capturing a ton of points (highest scored on their team) because we were leaving undefended points.
As soon as we moved a guy to permanently defend near, the guy was totally shut down, not a single extra point earned. Its sad though, what was once the champion of PvP has been shunted to nuisance status.

Thief toons are used as an excuse to sneakily tank your MMR.

It’s been a long day of crushing losses for my Mesmer. It looks like you achieved your goal, devs.

Ithilwen.1529:

It’s been a long day of crushing losses for my Mesmer. It looks like you achieved your goal, devs.

I’m sorry, but that just means your MMR is highly inflated due to you playing an extremely OP build before. It will take a series of losses for your MMR to get back to the right level.

I fully expect that the next emergency hotfix will be another nerf on Mesmer and a major buff to the new pet; DragonHunter.

Ithilwen.1529:

I fully expect that the next emergency hotfix will be another nerf on Mesmer and a major buff to the new pet; DragonHunter.

Where is the love for Warriors or Thieves?

@Sunshine.5014

Actually Sunshine, you’re dead wrong. I’m playing on my alt.. which wasn’t a chronobunker. If you think it’s so OP I suggest you learn to play. In addition, you’d do well not to speak without knowledge. Your comment is a kneejerk reaction and meaningless and inaccurate.

Ithilwen.1529:

@Sunshine.5014

Actually Sunshine, you’re dead wrong. I’m playing on my alt.. which wasn’t a chronobunker. If you think it’s so OP I suggest you learn to play. In addition, you’d do well not to speak without knowledge. Your comment is a kneejerk reaction and meaningless and inaccurate.

Then what are you complaining about? If you didn’t play chronobunker, then the nerf didn’t affect you at all. Blaming your Mesmer loss streak on that is cute, lol.

That is one angry mesmer.

Ithilwen.1529:

@Sunshine.5014

Actually Sunshine, you’re dead wrong. I’m playing on my alt.. which wasn’t a chronobunker. If you think it’s so OP I suggest you learn to play. In addition, you’d do well not to speak without knowledge. Your comment is a kneejerk reaction and meaningless and inaccurate.

What? Rofl….

If you don’t play bunker then what is your problem? Carried by someone who did?

I’m complaining about 2 things;

First that ANET reduced the shield block time inappropriately. Second that ANET broke it’s own rules and did an emergency fix to single out Mesmer for a heavy nerf.

This is a historical pattern with ANET. Hambow rolled on for weeks. ANET had no problem with that. Yet, they have even done hotfixes within minutes of releasing a new patch to make absolutely sure that Mesmer didn’t get a potentially strong skill.

ANET has a long history of carefully keeping Mesmer to minimum viability while letting things like Hambow and turret engi roll on for weeks.

I believe that one or more devs dislike mesmer and want it to do badly.

He/she could have been playing some other non-bunker chrono build that had precog on it that was nerfed, like idk, condi chronocancer, if anything that would just free up spot in your build to take something besides precog that will help you spread the aids.

Ithilwen.1529:

I’m complaining about 2 things;

First that ANET reduced the shield block time inappropriately. Second that ANET broke it’s own rules and did an emergency fix to single out Mesmer for a heavy nerf.

This is a historical pattern with ANET. Hambow rolled on for weeks. ANET had no problem with that. Yet, they have even done hotfixes within minutes of releasing a new patch to make absolutely sure that Mesmer didn’t get a potentially strong skill.

ANET has a long history of carefully keeping Mesmer to minimum viability while letting things like Hambow and turret engi roll on for weeks.

I believe that one or more devs dislike mesmer and want it to do badly.

Turret engis and hambows didn’t singlehandedly ruin the pvp scene by making almost every match go to time and be decided by whoever got the first cap…

Memser is part of PvP meta for half a year now, and was viable even before. After HoT it became even stronger. Not bad for a class which always gets “nerfed to the ground” …

Ithilwen.1529:

I’m complaining about 2 things;

First that ANET reduced the shield block time inappropriately. Second that ANET broke it’s own rules and did an emergency fix to single out Mesmer for a heavy nerf.

This is a historical pattern with ANET. Hambow rolled on for weeks. ANET had no problem with that. Yet, they have even done hotfixes within minutes of releasing a new patch to make absolutely sure that Mesmer didn’t get a potentially strong skill.

ANET has a long history of carefully keeping Mesmer to minimum viability while letting things like Hambow and turret engi roll on for weeks.

I believe that one or more devs dislike mesmer and want it to do badly.

Dude, put that salt in a vial and wear it.

Neither Hambow nor Turret Engi were as strong as Mesmer was.
The block nerf wasn’t necessary, but it also didn’t effect much. Shield is still a really strong pick.

Also Rev got nerfed.

Also, seriously.
Play thief for 2 seconds. It’ll probably cause you to quit the game.

So once again the defense is that because other builds have been OP in the past it was okay for mesmer to be broken now? Do you honestly not see of completely ridiculous that is? You can’t even logically defend it so you are taking the childish approach and just crying because they wouldn’t let you stay OP for the rest of the season. Pathetic…

Ithilwen.1529:

I’m complaining about 2 things;

First that ANET reduced the shield block time inappropriately. Second that ANET broke it’s own rules and did an emergency fix to single out Mesmer for a heavy nerf.

It wasn’t singled out, revenant was nerfed more than mesmer. And the emergency patch was done because of the drastic decline in the meta.

Ithilwen.1529:

I’m complaining about 2 things;

First that ANET reduced the shield block time inappropriately. Second that ANET broke it’s own rules and did an emergency fix to single out Mesmer for a heavy nerf.

It wasn’t singled out, revenant was nerfed more than mesmer. And the emergency patch was done because of the drastic decline in the meta.

What “drastic decline in the meta” that’s ridiculous. You and ANET need to realize that pro leagues on twitch don’t represent what really happens in the vast majority of games.

Ithilwen.1529:

What “drastic decline in the meta” that’s ridiculous. You and ANET need to realize that pro leagues on twitch don’t represent what really happens in the vast majority of games.

Always cracks me up when some random comes along acting like everyone else is ignorant. They don’t need to realize anything. You’re an idiot if you think Anet hasn’t got a better look at the big picture than you do. You are completely blinded by your bias and the weapons grade salt flowing from your eyes.

There was no “drastic decline in the meta.” You and ANET need to come to the realization that what happens on twitch with paid professional players doesn’t represent reality.

@Cole.3824 No, that’s you’re rather self serving strawman interpretation. ANET had no business making such a determination because they stated that they would not do so. I don’t believe the build was OP.

I might concede that WoP was OP.. but that doesn’t justify trashing my shield as well.

In addition, ANET has a long track record of heavy handed knee jerk nerfs, particularly where Mesmer is concerned. After the huge glamour nerf it took literally years to get Mesmer viable again.

OK, modifying earlier statement, there has been a long term decline in PvP. I attribute that to heavy handed and extremely slow balance moves by ANET.

@ ANET; If you say you’re going to do things in a particular way, do them that way. Don’t let the personal agendas of devs rule the game. Look at the statistics of what is actually happening in normal gaming, not pro leagues

Of course you don’t believe the build was OP rofl.

Also Anet had every right and business making such a determination. You’re in THEIR house not the other way around. If they see something as a problem it is completely within their right to change it and how that makes you feel couldn’t possibly be less relevant.

No, they didn’t. They didn’t because they said they wouldn’t. Of course I’m aware that many people place a low value on there word.

And just what made chronobunker OP? How is it OP compared to say, DH trap burst? Especially given that the traps interrupt almost continually.. making it nearly impossible for me to activate shield or WoP? Oh wait… that’s the current anet golden boy.

You’re kidding right? DH trap burst is a noob killer. If you don’t know what you’re looking at it can be deadly and frustrating. Now if you have the ability to identify that your enemy is a DH the traps become almost a non-issue.

You can EASILY avoid them if you know what you’re doing. There is a reason that DH traps aren’t making anyone cry outside of weekend warriors who pvp bi-weekly. Not even in the same league man and the fact that you tried to compare the two makes me wonder if you’re just a FOTM player who swapped over to Mesmer when he heard they were nearly unkillable.

For the record, I’m in my fourth year in GW2 and have played and liked Mesmer since soon after I started.

Yeah I can avoid traps if I’m willing not to cap the point they are set on. This is a near guaranteed death if I try to cap. How is that not OP? WoP was an appropriate countermeasure.

Well if you really are a 4 year mesmer then your problems run deeper then builds and nerfs. Even a amber level player doesn’t really worry about DH traps anymore. I haven’t had a DH give me trouble in weeks. Even when you encounter a smart DH who doesn’t just stack traps and stand on them they aren’t that difficult to handle. There is a reason you don’t see DH being represented much at all at the higher levels of play. Unlike the mesmer which has a huge presence.

Like I said you can’t compare the two. DH is a build that does well at picking off people who don’t know any better. Not exactly an impressive resume. If you want to talk builds then compare it to the other classes that have either been nerfed are are looking down the barrel of one soon.

The traps radius is smaller then the cap radius. You don’t have to just sit there in the trap while capping. A trap should not be stopping you from taking a point. If the DH is also at the point then you know…kill him?

Ithilwen.1529:

For the record, I’m in my fourth year in GW2 and have played and liked Mesmer since soon after I started.

Yeah I can avoid traps if I’m willing not to cap the point they are set on. This is a near guaranteed death if I try to cap. How is that not OP? WoP was an appropriate countermeasure.

I just want to drop in and mention that mesmer is actually one of the best suited classes for dealing with DH.

Send in a clone to trigger whatever traps could already be laid down, blink to escape in case he teleports on top of you or pulls you in. Sword 2 and distort as an invuln. If you’re vanilla, mass invis to avoid the true shot spam and attempt to reset now that his traps are on a 25s CD. If you’re chrono, shield and WoP to still facetank. A majority of DH’s burst is traps which a mes can easily avoid. A majority of mes’ burst is mind wrack, which is on a 10s CD (a little longer if you consider the skills used to generate clones for the burst and a little longer still if you decided to burn iLeap to whiff his traps). A full trap (or even medi trap) has RF for x2 SoC which amounts to a whole 10s of block time which leaves you a whole 10s to mind rek him before his first trap comes off CD. If you’re complaining about maw, that means he took a serious hit to his sustain and if you can use any one of your more than suitable get-out-of-jail-free cards, he has 5s to kill you before he dies a humiliating death.

You say that ANET shouldn’t be focusing on pro league relating balancing (which they said they weren’t doing), but pro league is exactly where mesmer wasn’t viable for the longest time. In terms of PUGs and non-tourney related PvP, mesmer had it quite nice after 6/23. If you believe otherwise, I have seen, played, and spoken with many mesmer who’d like to tell you otherwise.

The “higher levels of play” are not the issue. Nor is your opinion of my ability. What is at issue is the the fact that once again ANET went back on it’s word and it did so specifically to trash Mesmer.

Not only that.. it over did the nerf as is it’s long established habit and arbitrarily trashed shield 4 as well.

The matchmaking is still screwed up. Please at least reintroduce soloQ. Calling out commands over teamspeak is a huge advantage over those who rely on pure skill and knowledge of tactics and the maps so the need for the different gamemodes is obvious.