Guild Wars 2

… lol I am sry you were killed by a thief. I do tpvp with a thief/Ranger/engi/mesmer I just deleted my necro since everyone is playing them now started a guard. your ability to choose one of the 5 classes I play out of 8 is astounding tell me how will Justien Beiber die I would like to be prepped. Lets stay on topic.

Allie Murdock.8152:

<snip>

Which brings something else to mind. The sPvP forums are specifically to discuss sPvP changes, or things that affect sPvP. If you would like to discuss PvE, please use the appropriate sub-forums.

JonathanSharp.7094:

1:30 am…long day at the show.

THe reason I quickly jump into the sPvP forums is because that’s usually the best place to talk overall game balance.

It’s honestly just easier for me to look at that 1 forum, and then the WvW base forum, and get a sense for those 2 game types. For PvE, there are many layers of balance, from story steps, to dungeons, to fractals, to events, to new content for the living world, etc.

For the class forums, it’s just looking at 8 individual forums, which, when you’re on trips like this with a slow wi-fi connect, is just much harder and slower.

It’s not that we don’t love PvE, or balance for PvE, it’s literally just easier for me (personally) to check 1 sub forum, rather than 8, when I have limited time and a “meh” wi-fi.
<snip>

An ironic juxtaposition of ANet quotes. Perhaps there should be a single forum for game balance that is inclusive of all game modes. Until there is, or until there is an even distribution of developer feedback among all forums, it will always appear that this game is being balanced for PvP at the expense of PvE / WvW.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Fungalfoot.7213, PvE balance is a completely different beast, as there are insane amounts of things that undergo balance changes (Different classes of creatures, dungeons, Story instances, events, etc.).

To balance PvE, you’re essentially involving every team but the PvP team. So, when you guys talk about Profession balance, please keep in mind what areas of the game you are referring to when you post your feedback in those sub-sections of the forums.

Which brings something else to mind. The sPvP forums are specifically to discuss sPvP changes, or things that affect sPvP. If you would like to discuss PvE, please use the appropriate sub-forums.

Thanks!

Sorry but this has to be the biggest load of crap I’ve heard lately unless skills and traits are not part of PvE balance. Last time I checked Jon said ANet didn’t want to do PvE/PvP split unless absolutely necessary.

This merely reinforces my impression that all profession balance decisions are made primarily to cater PvP folks. PvP forums are the only spot where you see devs talking about class balance and we all know how the senior developers who work on professions love PvP.

I also get the impression a lot of folks follow the “PvE will always be easy enough so who cares about PvE balance” school of thought.

Thesilentflute.8761:

… lol I am sry you were killed by a thief. I do tpvp with a thief/Ranger/engi/mesmer I just deleted my necro since everyone is playing them now started a guard. your ability to choose one of the 5 classes I play out of 8 is astounding tell me how will Justien Beiber die I would like to be prepped. Lets stay on topic.

im pretty sure i was on topic in regards to talking of pvp and changes on necros not being as OP or have any semblence of “balance” like you were saying with “stop qqing” type of post ;-) last i checked i havent seen one post youve put on here was anything other then baseless slander to anyone expressing that the changes done to necro were unjust and how some of us would prefer a diff between pvp and pve balancing since one is affecting the other too dramatically.

Your right lol not off topic at all.

Anet was commenting in a PvP forum that they were listening to the players about necromancers and would look into making changes. In none of the posts by the Devs did they say that they would split the change so it only affected PvP. Allie I hope you understand that the PvE necromancer community was concerned that another change or possibly a nerf would occur behind their backs, affecting them also, with no chance to weigh in. It wouldn’t have blown up as big as it did if you or who ever else came in and said that any changes would only affect PvP.

Allie Murdock.8152:

The reason why I focused my communication in that thread is because it was loaded with constructive feedback, which should always be promoted. No, it was most definitely NOT the only thread about Necromancers. Also, it was NOT the only thread that I posted in regarding the Necro changes and feedback.

Now, with that in mind; This was a change that was SPLIT between PvP and PvE. The change ONLY happened for PvPers, and it was a quick turnaround due to the fact that the tournament was starting this weekend.

This does NOT mean that we ignore the Necromancer forums. This does NOT mean we don’t make changes that benefit PvE. This does NOT mean we don’t have hotfixes specifically to help PvE players.

Appreciate your feedback, but many of the things you are claiming are simply not true.

This is disingenuous. I don’t say that lightly. It takes one recent change out of context, out of the whole host of recent changes that have all revolved around balancing the power of dhumfire in pvp. All of those changes were NOT split in PvE and WvW, and honestly? Keeping dhumfire the same in pve makes no difference – it can’t possibly compete with close to death. The fact that the split was made for dhumfire and not for DS overflow just shows how utterly out of touch the balance team is with the state of pve….

I get it. PAX is an important piece of publicity, and this is a duct-tape on the windshield type fix because the show must go on. So then, make all of those changes pvp only, not the one change that does nothing to help the state of necromancers in pve.

just to make the above juxtaposition clearer:

Allie Murdock.8152:

PvE balance is a completely different beast, as there are insane amounts of things that undergo balance changes (Different classes of creatures, dungeons, Story instances, events, etc.)… If you would like to discuss PvE, please use the appropriate sub-forums.

JonathanSharp.7094:

The reason I quickly jump into the sPvP forums is because that’s usually the best place to talk overall game balance … it’s literally just easier for me (personally) to check 1 sub forum, rather than 8

Allie Murdock.8152:

The Boz.2038:

I actually wasn’t talking about you, but about said thread. In 24 hours, that thread generated more dev comments and actual balance changes than the entire Necromancer subforum has in a year. THAT is what I am disgusted by.

Please understand that my job is to make sure the feedback of the sPvP players is properly communicated back to the company (note my title). The reason why I communicated in that thread was because that is my job. We have other community coordinators that are focused on other parts of the game.

The reason why I focused my communication in that thread is because it was loaded with constructive feedback, which should always be promoted. No, it was most definitely NOT the only thread about Necromancers. Also, it was NOT the only thread that I posted in regarding the Necro changes and feedback.

Now, with that in mind; This was a change that was SPLIT between PvP and PvE. The change ONLY happened for PvPers, and it was a quick turnaround due to the fact that the tournament was starting this weekend.

This does NOT mean that we ignore the Necromancer forums. This does NOT mean we don’t make changes that benefit PvE. This does NOT mean we don’t have hotfixes specifically to help PvE players.

Appreciate your feedback, but many of the things you are claiming are simply not true.

What bothers me most of all is that these changes were seemingly made based on the feedback and personal experiences of the vocal users of the sPvP forum as opposed to being made based on empirical data and evidence collected by the anet balance team.

Faelun.7563:

Allie Murdock.8152:

The Boz.2038:

I actually wasn’t talking about you, but about said thread. In 24 hours, that thread generated more dev comments and actual balance changes than the entire Necromancer subforum has in a year. THAT is what I am disgusted by.

Please understand that my job is to make sure the feedback of the sPvP players is properly communicated back to the company (note my title). The reason why I communicated in that thread was because that is my job. We have other community coordinators that are focused on other parts of the game.

The reason why I focused my communication in that thread is because it was loaded with constructive feedback, which should always be promoted. No, it was most definitely NOT the only thread about Necromancers. Also, it was NOT the only thread that I posted in regarding the Necro changes and feedback.

Now, with that in mind; This was a change that was SPLIT between PvP and PvE. The change ONLY happened for PvPers, and it was a quick turnaround due to the fact that the tournament was starting this weekend.

This does NOT mean that we ignore the Necromancer forums. This does NOT mean we don’t make changes that benefit PvE. This does NOT mean we don’t have hotfixes specifically to help PvE players.

Appreciate your feedback, but many of the things you are claiming are simply not true.

What bothers me most of all is that these changes were seemingly made based on the feedback and personal experiences of the vocal users of the sPvP forum as opposed to being made based on empirical data and evidence collected by the anet balance team.

thats def what it seems like , im usually a PvE / WvW person but when it was made apparent that only the SPvP forum was being listened to , us pve’ers came form our repsective class forums onto here to make our voices heard for a change….or atleast try >.<

Faelun is right.
They don’t test anything,they just try things and wait for the players to comment.
A good “known” player complain about necros without having played one for more than a couple of hours and they decide that he is right and nerf.
They say that the increased damage necros were having while in death shroud was a bug but are they really saying that for about one year there was such an huge bug and didn’t do anything ?! And then say that they care about necros ?! Really ?! Necros have been asking for survivability,they give fire and they are listening to necros ?!
i have a constructive thing to say: if after about one year they haven’t managed to balance anything,we’re losing our time.I personnaly don’t feel like playing this game anymore.There is nothing serious about it.

I don’t know how anyone in their right mind can think Necros are weaker now than they were pre-buffs, unless I’m misunderstanding the OP. Most knowledgeable Necros knew they were pretty close to be pretty balanced pre-buffs from a tPvP-perspective.

Remove the burning. Turn it into torment and give necro more access to chills/blinds/roots to help with their survival.

Nerf fear chains. Terror with the length of fear a necro can do on top of his condi damage is just dumb.

Skyro.3108:

I don’t know how anyone in their right mind can think Necros are weaker now than they were pre-buffs, unless I’m misunderstanding the OP. Most knowledgeable Necros knew they were pretty close to be pretty balanced pre-buffs from a tPvP-perspective.

yes but alot of us are complaining about a PvE perspective , not pvp , the reason pve’ers are here complaining is because theyre only listening to the pvp section , its been said a couple of times here and other spots on the pvp forums , we are incredibly weak in pve , more specifically in dungeons , more so cause our real defense is DS , but now it doesnt absorb the big hits , and our other form of defense is weakness and such , ever see how little that does for bosses and other mobs in dungeons in general? we are the WEAKEST in pve (not paying attention to engineers , havent really played mine in forever) , the only class that doesnt bring stuff to the group (pve wise) is thieves (no real buffs and such , just RAW DMG that can outshine a condition necro). and even in pvp even below average thieves can abuse the stealth / backstab spam , going into stealth at below 20% health (give or take) , stacked with conditions (20 bleeds , poison ) and come out at FULL health , REPEATEDLY , all while hitting like truck in raw straight up dmg. guess how many condition cleansers youll see in pvp and wvw? way more , wanna guess how easily you can negate raw straight up dmg? not as often / easily as straight up dmg.

Godofallu.2935:

Lopez.7369:

The July changes have been great. We now have less damage and survivability — exactly the things high-rated necromancers were asking for.

Considering death shroud + Spectral skills got buffed I don’t really understand how you could possibly have less survivability. Especially considering greater marks is no longer a must take which opens up 10 trait points that can be invested defensively.

I meant more survivability.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Appreciate your feedback, but many of the things you are claiming are simply not true.

Thanks for the reply, but… what exactly am I claiming that isn’t true?
Prior to the 25 June update, necromancers were asking for an improvement in their survivability, and possibly a sort of small cover condition.
We were given burning.
After the patch, necromancers were worried that burning was too much up-front damage, so they started asking ArenaNet to take it away and replace it with the newly introduced condition, torment.
The PvP community realized what necromancers were worried about, and started to use terror/dhuumfire builds which, coupled with the new spectral wall, enabled the necromancers to pile on conditions and execute a ~5 second CC with a continuous damage component.
In response to that, the necromancer community was ignored, and terror was nerfed.
Necromancers continued to voice their disapproval, and they were still being ignored. PvPers continued to voice their disapproval, and within 24 hours, a thread made by a well known PvP player who has pretty much zero experience with actually playing the class, and absolutely no experience with playing the class outside the terror/dhuumfire build, caused the devs to comment, and introduce a hotfix, destroying dhuumfire for PvP. This is the first PvP-only fix in the sequence. The other nerfs, such as terror and death shroud single-hit tanking potential, were not reverted.

The devs then assure the PvP community that more permanent changes are upcoming. The devs still continue to make absolutely no comments in the necromancer subforum. All of the balance communication that affects all aspects of the game in 99% of the cases is still limited to the PvP subforum.

What exactly do I claim here that is not true?

Allie Murdock.8152:

Fungalfoot.7213, PvE balance is a completely different beast, as there are insane amounts of things that undergo balance changes (Different classes of creatures, dungeons, Story instances, events, etc.).

To balance PvE, you’re essentially involving every team but the PvP team. So, when you guys talk about Profession balance, please keep in mind what areas of the game you are referring to when you post your feedback in those sub-sections of the forums.

Which brings something else to mind. The sPvP forums are specifically to discuss sPvP changes, or things that affect sPvP. If you would like to discuss PvE, please use the appropriate sub-forums.

Thanks!

But when you balance our class for PVE, you read the PvP forum! That is why you are now seeing so many angry PVE necromancers on your pvp forum. You broke our class for PVE, when it was already pretty weak to begin with.

We are complaining on the forum that gets read by the developers responsible for the changes to our PVE necro.

Kravick.4906:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Fungalfoot.7213, PvE balance is a completely different beast, as there are insane amounts of things that undergo balance changes (Different classes of creatures, dungeons, Story instances, events, etc.).

To balance PvE, you’re essentially involving every team but the PvP team. So, when you guys talk about Profession balance, please keep in mind what areas of the game you are referring to when you post your feedback in those sub-sections of the forums.

Which brings something else to mind. The sPvP forums are specifically to discuss sPvP changes, or things that affect sPvP. If you would like to discuss PvE, please use the appropriate sub-forums.

Thanks!

I don’t understand. A lot of the changes that happens to classes are the result of PvP balancing. This affects PvE players as well since up until yesterday, you have done very little to actually separate the two. Nerfing a skill in PvP has had the direct affect of nerfing it every where else as well. So when we see these nerfs, it makes a lot of sense for us to come to this forum to voice our concerns regarding these changes.

The discussions from these forums are in fact where the ideas for these changes originate, right? I don’t understand why you would tell us not to come here when it is in fact the players and the feed back you are relaying from these forums that is facilitating these changes.

Totally agree, far too often PVEers get shafted to deal with PVP whining (the recent mega-nerf to Ranger pet damage being merely one of numerous examples), and if that whining takes place in this forum then this is where PVEers need to counter it.

The Boz.2038:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Appreciate your feedback, but many of the things you are claiming are simply not true.

Thanks for the reply, but… what exactly am I claiming that isn’t true?
Prior to the 25 June update, necromancers were asking for an improvement in their survivability, and possibly a sort of small cover condition.
We were given burning.
After the patch, necromancers were worried that burning was too much up-front damage, so they started asking ArenaNet to take it away and replace it with the newly introduced condition, torment.
The PvP community realized what necromancers were worried about, and started to use terror/dhuumfire builds which, coupled with the new spectral wall, enabled the necromancers to pile on conditions and execute a ~5 second CC with a continuous damage component.
In response to that, the necromancer community was ignored, and terror was nerfed.
Necromancers continued to voice their disapproval, and they were still being ignored. PvPers continued to voice their disapproval, and within 24 hours, a thread made by a well known PvP player who has pretty much zero experience with actually playing the class, and absolutely no experience with playing the class outside the terror/dhuumfire build, caused the devs to comment, and introduce a hotfix, destroying dhuumfire for PvP. This is the first PvP-only fix in the sequence. The other nerfs, such as terror and death shroud single-hit tanking potential, were not reverted.

The devs then assure the PvP community that more permanent changes are upcoming. The devs still continue to make absolutely no comments in the necromancer subforum. All of the balance communication that affects all aspects of the game in 99% of the cases is still limited to the PvP subforum.

What exactly do I claim here that is not true?

+++++1
Also since u nerf dhuumfire in spvp to 2 sec give at least 6 sec in pve/wvw ( 30 talent point for this be serious) but i doubt u give necro something in exchange .

The Boz.2038:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Appreciate your feedback, but many of the things you are claiming are simply not true.

Thanks for the reply, but… what exactly am I claiming that isn’t true?
Prior to the 25 June update, necromancers were asking for an improvement in their survivability, and possibly a sort of small cover condition.
We were given burning.
After the patch, necromancers were worried that burning was too much up-front damage, so they started asking ArenaNet to take it away and replace it with the newly introduced condition, torment.
The PvP community realized what necromancers were worried about, and started to use terror/dhuumfire builds which, coupled with the new spectral wall, enabled the necromancers to pile on conditions and execute a ~5 second CC with a continuous damage component.
In response to that, the necromancer community was ignored, and terror was nerfed.
Necromancers continued to voice their disapproval, and they were still being ignored. PvPers continued to voice their disapproval, and within 24 hours, a thread made by a well known PvP player who has pretty much zero experience with actually playing the class, and absolutely no experience with playing the class outside the terror/dhuumfire build, caused the devs to comment, and introduce a hotfix, destroying dhuumfire for PvP. This is the first PvP-only fix in the sequence. The other nerfs, such as terror and death shroud single-hit tanking potential, were not reverted.

The devs then assure the PvP community that more permanent changes are upcoming. The devs still continue to make absolutely no comments in the necromancer subforum. All of the balance communication that affects all aspects of the game in 99% of the cases is still limited to the PvP subforum.

What exactly do I claim here that is not true?

Pwnage over 9000.

Allie Murdock.8152:

many of the things you are claiming are simply not true.

Now where have I heard that before…hinthint

Defektive.7283:

Zing. You go girl.

Such replies are a good demonstration why the position of CCs in online games are usually reserved to females, kekeke.

The approach doesn’t work as well on fellow females though, zingggg.
Nor does it work on those actually reading their posts, and being able to make/compare counterarguments, as the reply made by Boz, as well as by numerous other posters in other threads, has clearly demonstrated.

@ Allie, the thing that ‘angries’ (filter fix) me most off, is that EVEN NECRO /WVW/PVE (mainly) people AGREE that dhuumfire should not be there. BOTH THE ENEMY (nerf crybabies, so to speak) AND the profession owners themself AGREE. Have you ever seen that before? If both sides of the coin agree, the chance that they are wrong is really small in my opinion. Yet you ignored them straight. And nerfed other things.

Secondly Allie, lot of respect for your work, I know it’s the cliché of the policeman saying ’i’m just doing my job’. And you are doing that. However, one thing you fail to grasp, mentioned by many people in here. You think only in pvp terms, and seem to ignore the rest of the game, because your job, presses you so kitten this one aspect of the game. You feel it’s no mistake because that’s your job, and you feel like you are doing your job very well this way. Well, 95% of PVP balance tweaks (mostly nerfs), are also copied to PVE/WVW. It may not matter to you, you may not care, but that’s why PVE/WVW people are panicking and voicing their opinions in the PVP section, even though that is not why the forum section exist. It is also the reason you gonna be hated by a lot of people in the future, unless you stop giving them the idea you ignore them.

Remove dhunfire. Replace with a trait fit for power builds.

Add torment to scepter 3 – depending on number of conditions you apply a stack of equal value torment (ie: 3 conditions on target, stack of 3 torment applied).

Anelyn.4593:

Remove dhunfire. Replace with a trait fit for power builds.

Add torment to scepter 3 – depending on number of conditions you apply a stack of equal value torment (ie: 3 conditions on target, stack of 3 torment applied).

Since the second most complained about thing is Terror, move it to where Dhuumfire is. Make Terror a power based attack instead of a condition damage attack and dramatically increase its damage. Give it an additional chance to crit for each unique condition on the target.

Change fear to work just like a stun instead of a condition (duration isn’t increased by consecutive casts) and increase fear duration to 2 seconds instead of 1 like many stuns.

I hope that one has not to comment now on every bad suggestion made in this forum, in fear that if not argued about it might see the light of day.

I disagree with the OP. I think Necromancers are in a far better shape than prior to the patches. Their damage has been improved, as well as their survivability.

My biggest concerns about Necromancers are, in order of priority:

1) Assist trains/chain CC and a lack of a reliable disengage. In recent days I’ve run into several groups that run an assist train that focuses on chain CC. Stun breakers are next to worthless as CC is applied in serial fashion – you break one CC and are instantly CC’d again.
I previously thought maybe Necormancers were ok and that plague form / Flesh Wurm would work, but some playing over the weekend revealed to me that the CC training is just too overpowered. Stun breakers are really basically worthless.

Popping plague form can delay things, but once your stability is stripped the elite is dead in the water. Perhaps giving one of the plague form skills the ability to reapply stability would be helpful.

Flesh Wurm – well, he’s ok, but once he’s dead, you’re dead. Perhaps allowing you to cast Necrotic Traversal for some period of time after he’s been killed would help (this would need to be tested).

2) Recent tPvP-only nerf to Dhuumfire to give it a 2 second duration. In my opinion that makes it a very weak Grandmaster Trait. It reduces Necromancer damage output, but more importantly makes condition cleansing more powerful. Is it really worth 30 points into the Power tree just for a 2-second, on-proc, burn?

3) Poison – last time I checked, poison wasn’t reducing healing at all in certain cases. That’s really huge to Necromancer’s ‘attrition’ strategy.

4) Staff #4, Putrid Mark, was bugged as of 2 patches ago. It used to transfer all your conditions to your opponent. Now it only transfers 3.

5) Mesmer’s Moa Morph elite kills all minions. If minion master builds were completely viable in every other way, this one ability would still make minion master builds non-viable.

I still think stealth zerg assist trains are a problem, but I think the fundamental problem is that stealth has no counter, not that Necros have no good counter to it. Some classes with a disengage can negate part of the assist train, but not the initial hit.

They have to give us our ability to absorb spike damage back. That was one of the biggest problems with the pax nerf. That’s not just something you can casually throw out. The fix they made to DS was an important one. But it does not scale up against what we had, considering DS was able to absorb damage of ANY amount. What they gave us in return is the ability to only absorb damage based on how much hitpoints we have. And that simply won’t scale in PVE.

Complain what you will devs about us being in the wrong forum. But if you had only made this change for pvp, you would not be seeing so many PVE complaints right now. You made a pax change for all aspects of the game, and only consulted the pvp side. That is simply a bad move. Now you’ve got a severe balance problem.

Necro is still very good (i am not saing it is op!) in both specs : terror and power.
Yes only “block” is gone, but overall DS is improved and can take more dmg then ever.

The part about “more damage than ever” is questionable, since before it could tank an infinite amount of damage in a single packet, and now it’s just better at taking damage in a greater number of smaller packets.

emon.1863:

Necro is still very good (i am not saing it is op!) in both specs : terror and power.
Yes only “block” is gone, but overall DS is improved and can take more dmg then ever.

Power necro is terrible.

Did you see how quickly rabid amulet necros were dying in tournaments? Imagine a valk or berserker amulet power necro going into the middle of a team fight and see how long he lasts with s/d thieves around.

The thing that bothers me is the outsourcing of development to the forums. When players whine, sorry, provide constructive balance feedback, and get results, they’ll never stop. If it’s easier to get changes reverted or reduced than it is to adapt to those changes, how is the metagame supposed to ever evolve?

It also means there’s no benefit to presenting honest and truly unbiased feedback, because if you just scream louder you’re more likely to be heard (see: 3 TP players posting separate nerf necro threads, sorry, constructive meta discussion threads). Letting the players design the game is always a recipe for fail. Now it’s just a matter of picking a side and trying to cheer louder so you can shout the other team down on the forums.

As for losing 2 seconds on dhuumfire, I couldn’t give a kitten. It was too strong when players refused to adapt, nerfing it just means they don’t have to anymore.

Zenith.7301:

emon.1863:

Necro is still very good (i am not saing it is op!) in both specs : terror and power.
Yes only “block” is gone, but overall DS is improved and can take more dmg then ever.

Power necro is terrible.

Did you see how quickly rabid amulet necros were dying in tournaments? Imagine a valk or berserker amulet power necro going into the middle of a team fight and see how long he lasts with s/d thieves around.

Did you even try it?
Yes, S/D thief are painfull to necros, but they are also easy to kill.
Since atm DS is working much better and it is easy to maintain 70-100% of it most of the game, thieves are going down in 3-4 hits.

Now heres where i raise a question to you Allie , if theres a pvp team and a pve team working on stuff , then why dont we see that seperation of the 2 like we saw in GW1 (ignoring the “new / diff game” response) ? it would save alot of grief for both teams that do any of the balancing for their respective departments , players also want this done as well , so why isnt it done beyond “diff/new game” ? i daresay its not impossible as when you enter the pvp area of the game you get a diff trait set to mess around with , reset , change etc nonstop. in turn why do we not have the seperation of the 2 then if when we go to the mists pvp area we get a diff trait set to work with?

Edit : You can ask around the player base , IN GAME not on forums (though iwouldnt disregard their responses either) , none of them will really agree that the answer for not having the seperation of the 2 being “diff/new game” is ever going to be a viable response , infact its a system most mmos that have pvp options SHOULD be doing , pvp players destroy / ruin pve , and vice versa , its a never ending conflict between the 2 , ive stated how another game (will avoid the name to save any trouble) was doing balancing based on pvp (even more so they had diff devs designated to diff class archetypes) , balancing also being done to 1 class by the devs of the other classes , to the points where 1) the mage STRUGGLED to be as good in the dps charts as the worst rogues / warriors , and the cleric (healer specs) turned into god mode in pvp. In that example you saw mages being nerfed due to pvp complaints and end up being USELESS in pve , and then you saw clerics (healer types ) getting so good to handle raids easier that they also went into the god mode point in pvp.
In short , the seperation of the 2 systems is a GREAT IDEA for ANY GAME.

emon.1863:

Zenith.7301:

emon.1863:

Necro is still very good (i am not saing it is op!) in both specs : terror and power.
Yes only “block” is gone, but overall DS is improved and can take more dmg then ever.

Power necro is terrible.

Did you see how quickly rabid amulet necros were dying in tournaments? Imagine a valk or berserker amulet power necro going into the middle of a team fight and see how long he lasts with s/d thieves around.

Did you even try it?
Yes, S/D thief are painfull to necros, but they are also easy to kill.
Since atm DS is working much better and it is easy to maintain 70-100% of it most of the game, thieves are going down in 3-4 hits.

id like to see this , i just saw 4 of us trying to take down 2 of these thieves , they have an ungodly amount of survivability with the stealth spam and hit and run tactics (and hit like a truck (wvw viewpoint mind you)) , because i was following others around rather then solo i ran a 30/0/0/10/30 berserker build knowing i wouldnt last too long (even through i could run through a group of other class types that try to focus me down and just barely make it past them into a tower). These thieves were able to take so much punishment , go back to full health repeatedly , and as we were chasing them one comes out of stealth and 1 shots my DS (100% LF) and 2nd shot downs me. even in berserker that seems a tad overpowered , ive never seen conditions take down a berserker build that fast (yes ive seen ppl running around with berserker builds). even as a power necro those thieves take ALOT of punishment , good survivability , and heavy dmg , DS is now paper thin (as that thief proved right there when he 1 shot the thing with 30 spite)

Allie Murdock.8152:

Fungalfoot.7213, PvE balance is a completely different beast, as there are insane amounts of things that undergo balance changes (Different classes of creatures, dungeons, Story instances, events, etc.).

To balance PvE, you’re essentially involving every team but the PvP team. So, when you guys talk about Profession balance, please keep in mind what areas of the game you are referring to when you post your feedback in those sub-sections of the forums.

Which brings something else to mind. The sPvP forums are specifically to discuss sPvP changes, or things that affect sPvP. If you would like to discuss PvE, please use the appropriate sub-forums.

Thanks!

… you mean the dungeon forums that haven’t had a dev post in who knows how long?

the game will have real balance when there’s a split between the three game modes

Enundr.9305:

emon.1863:

Zenith.7301:

emon.1863:

Necro is still very good (i am not saing it is op!) in both specs : terror and power.
Yes only “block” is gone, but overall DS is improved and can take more dmg then ever.

Power necro is terrible.

Did you see how quickly rabid amulet necros were dying in tournaments? Imagine a valk or berserker amulet power necro going into the middle of a team fight and see how long he lasts with s/d thieves around.

Did you even try it?
Yes, S/D thief are painfull to necros, but they are also easy to kill.
Since atm DS is working much better and it is easy to maintain 70-100% of it most of the game, thieves are going down in 3-4 hits.

id like to see this , i just saw 4 of us trying to take down 2 of these thieves , they have an ungodly amount of survivability with the stealth spam and hit and run tactics (and hit like a truck (wvw viewpoint mind you)) , because i was following others around rather then solo i ran a 30/0/0/10/30 berserker build knowing i wouldnt last too long (even through i could run through a group of other class types that try to focus me down and just barely make it past them into a tower). These thieves were able to take so much punishment , go back to full health repeatedly , and as we were chasing them one comes out of stealth and 1 shots my DS (100% LF) and 2nd shot downs me. even in berserker that seems a tad overpowered , ive never seen conditions take down a berserker build that fast (yes ive seen ppl running around with berserker builds). even as a power necro those thieves take ALOT of punishment , good survivability , and heavy dmg , DS is now paper thin (as that thief proved right there when he 1 shot the thing with 30 spite)

Thief one shotet your 100% DS ? XD I really wanna see that!
Also, did i understand you right – you are speaking about pve/wvw?! if so, you are on wrong forum ,mate ) In pve/wvw you have other stats possobilitys, therefor other dmg.
Also, 30/0/0/10/30 ? you searious ? I never play pve/wvw, but first i still cant understand why you need 10 traints in BS?

emon.1863:

Zenith.7301:

emon.1863:

Necro is still very good (i am not saing it is op!) in both specs : terror and power.
Yes only “block” is gone, but overall DS is improved and can take more dmg then ever.

Power necro is terrible.

Did you see how quickly rabid amulet necros were dying in tournaments? Imagine a valk or berserker amulet power necro going into the middle of a team fight and see how long he lasts with s/d thieves around.

Did you even try it?
Yes, S/D thief are painfull to necros, but they are also easy to kill.
Since atm DS is working much better and it is easy to maintain 70-100% of it most of the game, thieves are going down in 3-4 hits.

Too bad there aren’t many s/p thieves slapping necros down anymore, but there never was that many after its first nerf in October.

If Necro is allowed to have that much DPS and utility which causes them to punish extremely hard, they should be just as easy to punish. The first step is to make it so that Necros shouldn’t be able to fear you off when they are stunned during DS. Being able to plague form while stunned or knocked down is also extremely unreasonable for how hard Necros punish. Sure you can say just move away from Necros when they plague form or DS fear is only single target, but this class is way too forgiving for its aggressive factor (Being able to condition DPS while chaining CC).

I would say Necros would be balanced if they fixed at least one of the two underhanded that I’ve mentioned.

Amir.1570:

If Necro is allowed to have that much DPS and utility which causes them to punish extremely hard, they should be just as easy to punish. The first step is to make it so that Necros shouldn’t be able to fear you off when they are stunned during DS. Being able to plague form while stunned or knocked down is also extremely unreasonable for how hard Necros punish. Sure you can say just move away from Necros when they plague form or DS fear is only single target, but this class is way too forgiving for its aggressive factor (Being able to condition DPS while chaining CC).

I would say Necros would be balanced if they fixed at least one of the two underhanded that I’ve mentioned.

1. Necro in 30/30 builds almost has no LF so he can be killed fast.
2.Think it would be better to fix bugs in game, before changing class

Amir.1570:

If Necro is allowed to have that much DPS and utility which causes them to punish extremely hard, they should be just as easy to punish. The first step is to make it so that Necros shouldn’t be able to fear you off when they are stunned during DS. Being able to plague form while stunned or knocked down is also extremely unreasonable for how hard Necros punish. Sure you can say just move away from Necros when they plague form or DS fear is only single target, but this class is way too forgiving for its aggressive factor (Being able to condition DPS while chaining CC).

I would say Necros would be balanced if they fixed at least one of the two underhanded that I’ve mentioned.

So our elite skill should not be able act as a stun break even though it gives us stability and is half the point of the skill? We are able to move 1 person away from us while stunned? These are only the first steps you have in mind? What’s next I wonder, giving them paper bags as armor? Seriously, necros don’t need to be nerfed in the survivability department.

They really shouldn’t touch necromancers any further until we see how the warrior metagame settles.

Mammoth.1975:

The thing that bothers me is the outsourcing of development to the forums. When players whine, sorry, provide constructive balance feedback, and get results, they’ll never stop. If it’s easier to get changes reverted or reduced than it is to adapt to those changes, how is the metagame supposed to ever evolve?

It also means there’s no benefit to presenting honest and truly unbiased feedback, because if you just scream louder you’re more likely to be heard (see: 3 TP players posting separate nerf necro threads, sorry, constructive meta discussion threads). Letting the players design the game is always a recipe for fail. Now it’s just a matter of picking a side and trying to cheer louder so you can shout the other team down on the forums.

As for losing 2 seconds on dhuumfire, I couldn’t give a kitten. It was too strong when players refused to adapt, nerfing it just means they don’t have to anymore.

I just want to take a moment to parrot this sentiment. The fact that the development team had to ask for example footage of teams with Necros versus several other comps before determining whether a hotfix was warranted strongly implies that they do not have adequate data to balance appropriately.

Furthermore, the fact that they instated this hotfix after getting several biased 5 – 10 second clips posted in that thread reinforces the notion that they are balancing to the loudest party instead of forcing people to adapt to the new meta.

For the record, I’m not trying to single out Allie here. That would just be shooting the messenger.

Or, more likely, they asked for player data to confirm their own.

Lopez.7369:

Or, more likely, they asked for player data to confirm their own.

…why?
Why would anyone do that?
It’d be like looking at an image from the Hubble telescope, finding a new star cluster, and saying “gee, this looks interesting, but I need to confirm it. I know! I’ll go to wikipedia and see what they say!”

There’s a lot of talk about PVE in this thread, but I’m curious, how many people actually read the hotfix patch notes here? https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-July-23rd-2013

Necromancer:
Dhuumfire: In competitive PvP only, burning duration caused by this trait has been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. Burning duration is still 4 seconds in other areas of the game.

This is in fact evidence that PVE and sPVP are being balanced separately where it makes sense, as many in the community think that they should be.

Kharr.5746:

There’s a lot of talk about PVE in this thread, but I’m curious, how many people actually read the hotfix patch notes here? https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-July-23rd-2013

Necromancer:
Dhuumfire: In competitive PvP only, burning duration caused by this trait has been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. Burning duration is still 4 seconds in other areas of the game.

This is in fact evidence that PVE and sPVP are being balanced separately where it makes sense, as many in the community think that they should be.

But this is one of only a few, very few, examples of how the two are balanced differently. Until the developers put a real effort into splitting the two game modes the pvp and pve communities will always be at odds.

This comedy show called balancing show´s clearly that Anet does not have the slightest idea what to do with the Necromancer. Instead of giving us a tool to reset a fight, they gave us burning. Maybe somebody should tell them that a dead Necro doesn´t deal damage…. They are not testing changes at all, the live servers are their test environment. But the worst thing at all is regarding their mantra they have repeated over and over in the sotg´s “No knee jerk ractions regarding balancing” and now they say that the last nerfs were made with PAX in mind. I´m sorry Anet but you are doing a lousy lousy job at the moment.

Kharr.5746:

There’s a lot of talk about PVE in this thread, but I’m curious, how many people actually read the hotfix patch notes here? https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-July-23rd-2013

Necromancer:
Dhuumfire: In competitive PvP only, burning duration caused by this trait has been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. Burning duration is still 4 seconds in other areas of the game.

This is in fact evidence that PVE and sPVP are being balanced separately where it makes sense, as many in the community think that they should be.

Your totally right. The fact is that they would probably shut up most of the complain from PvE player if the revert the overflow thing for PvE, like they change Dhumfire. In PvE, we just can’t live with 2 dodges and a 20k bubble where other classes play and need their 3 dodges + invul + blocks.

Dadnir.5038:

Kharr.5746:

There’s a lot of talk about PVE in this thread, but I’m curious, how many people actually read the hotfix patch notes here? https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-July-23rd-2013

Necromancer:
Dhuumfire: In competitive PvP only, burning duration caused by this trait has been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. Burning duration is still 4 seconds in other areas of the game.

This is in fact evidence that PVE and sPVP are being balanced separately where it makes sense, as many in the community think that they should be.

Your totally right. The fact is that they would probably shut up most of the complain from PvE player if the revert the overflow thing for PvE, like they change Dhumfire. In PvE, we just can’t live with 2 dodges and a 20k bubble where other classes play and need their 3 dodges + invul + blocks.

Agreed on reverting the overflow between DS and HP pool in PvE. This is a split that needs to happen.

I’d just like to point out that the necromancer forum is yet to be visited by a dev. Last post was from a week ago, and the one before that… well… best not to think about it.
Meanwhile, in SPvP land…

This thing about ds overflow only being terrible in pve is a farce.
overflow in pvp is the same..
I would say keep your nerfs. Add healing/siphon to ds or remove overflow altogether.
Or maybe lower the % overflowing, if i enter DS with 5k hp i want those 5k hp to be there when i come out. That was our burs denial..sorry you have to hit necros with more bursts then one. wich shouldn’t be a problem since bursts are more common then sand is in the desert.
besides necros have a CD on DS i mean. ….

(special note, i assume the rock below skyhammer was meant to be leaped on from the platform. Shame that strategic route is gone now too. why put huge worms under the platform otherwise? decoration? no DS was inteded to work the way it worked and in my opinion the necro ds nerf was entirely non-necro community based)