Guild Wars 2

Jekkt.6045:

elemental attunement changes suggested by him are horrible, would destroy most of the non d/d builds as they heavily rely on that protection.

I’d like to see your reasoning.

d/f and d/d are the builds which rely heavily on the long protection duration because they’re in close combat often. Focus in the d/f build still gives it strong sustain even with less protection duration. Scepter and staff builds rely more on kiting and positioning to survive than taking hits for an extended time, so they won’t see a huge impact from slightly lower protection durations on earth swap.

why does mesmer need a nerf?

These weren’t major nerfs. The change I proposed to Halting Strike is in line with toning down other procs.

Shatter mesmer is fairly strong currently, but kept in check by thief. In toning down thief burst through reduced sigil damage and providing better stat selection, mesmer won’t be nearly as vulnerable to thief and will see wider play.

doom counters celestial, that’s why it’s used, why would you reduce the duration, even if it hits squishies too but that’s just a bonus.

The builds which predominately use Sigil of Doom are the celestial builds. Damage builds typically don’t use the sigil because they won’t last in drawn-out fights against a sustain build anyway. So by your reasoning, celestial builds are keeping celestial builds in check. They can do that without Sigil of Doom, which hurts other sustain builds and is a another obstacle for damage builds.

Also, keeping poison access restricted to professions abilities creates a more varied PvP environment; if poison is so powerful, a build which can apply it often becomes more enticing when compared to builds which can’t apply poison at all.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

cleansing ire is also working as intended, already balanced, there is no need to remove “embrace the pain” from cleansing ire.

Cleansing Ire has been a problem since it was introduced and still is. The condition clear it provides is one of the strongest in the game.

The key problem with Cleansing Ire is that it allows condition clear regardless of how well the warrior is playing because of the “Embrace the Pain” (gain adrenaline when hit) component. That component also keeps Adrenal Health (regenerate health based on adrenaline level) going strong. By removing the Embrace the Pain component, defensive builds have to land attacks in order to keep clearing conditions at a high rate. At the same time, this change also reduces their use of burst abilities, which provide a lot of damage.

Offensive builds won’t be restricted as much, because they’re generating adrenaline from attacks. This also makes choices more relevant between fast attack / multi-attack weapons, slow single attack weapons, and abilities which grant additional adrenaline.

as d/d or d/f you generally use elemental shielding which gives you additional protection uptime. on a fresh air build on the other hand you use EA to counter bursts and mitigate damage. by reducing the prot duration by 50% you would hit berserk specs way harder than celestial.

still, why does mesmer need a nerf? it is considered a lesser used dps class, why push it out even more?

without doom a celestial duel would never end at all. even now it takes a long time to finish such a fight and by cutting the doom duration you would even prolongue it more. i don’t see the reason behind this.
why would berserk specs use this anyway? they are not made to 1v1 celestial classes but to +1 or focus burst and in that case you have enough damage even without the -heal of doom. and air/fire are better for the short-lived duels that berserk classes have, no reason to take doom for them.

Immobilize cap removed! Player cannot be immobilized for over 4 seconds! If player receives immobilize duration greater than 4 seconds, it will be capped at 4 seconds! Player will be immune to subsequent immobilize effects until the current one wears off!

Engineer!

• Super Speed cooldown increased to 45 seconds!
• Slick Shoes oil puddles capped at 4!
• Overcharge Shot 0.5 second cast time! Adds sound effect while casting!
• Prybar damage reduced by 10%!
• Elixir Infused Bombs now grandmaster Alchemy trait! Experimental Turrets now grandmaster Inventions trait!

Necromancer!

• Starts match with 13% life force!
• Necrotic Grasp life force gain increased to 6%!

Warrior!

• Call to Arms vigor duration reduced to 6 seconds!
• Quick Breathing no longer converts conditions into boons! Removes 1 condition instead!

Ranger!

• Entangle root immobilizes now blockable! Initial hit remains unblockable!
• Sword auto attack chain no longer roots you in place!
• Add sound effect while casting Point Blank Shot!

Elementalist!

• Renewing Stamina cooldown increased to 10 seconds!
• Soothing Disruption vigor duration reduced to 3 seconds!
• Stone Shards cast time reduced to 1 second!

Guardian!

• Ring of Warding duration decreased to 4 seconds!
• Flashing Blade now grants 5 seconds of swiftness!
• Shield of Judgement cooldown decreased to 20 seconds! Protection duration increased to 5 seconds!
• Shield of Absorption grants aegis to all allies in the radius!
• Ray of Judgement renamed to something else because RoJ was a thuper awesome attack in Guild Warts 1 and now it’s a little pipsqueak poop in Guild Warts 2! Perhaps a new Guardian elite can be introduced later called Ray of Judgement and it will do the old skill justice! Maybe we can rename this one to Ray of Poopers!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Exedore.6320:

Mesmer
- Mirror Blade no longer unblockable
High damage attacks should be blockable.

oh I missed this gem lol – guys i think this skill should be nerfed because its highly telegraphed with a slow moving projectile, theres just no chance of my DODGING it so all I can do is block but its unblockable and i think its unfair pouty face

why shouldnt an opponent be punished more damage? thats the whole point of the trait. You forget teef isn’t the only problem, you also have conditions. decoy, blink are a must leaving 1 optional utility- either portal ( maybe have a spot on a team) or condi mantra ( and not be on a team ). take that into mind and then lower the burst potential of a burst class…. why then are you even bringing a mesmer?

echo.2053:

Exedore.6320:

Mesmer
- Mirror Blade no longer unblockable
High damage attacks should be blockable.

oh I missed this gem lol – guys i think this skill should be nerfed because its highly telegraphed with a slow moving projectile, theres just no chance of my DODGING it so all I can do is block but its unblockable and i think its unfair pouty face

why shouldnt an opponent be punished more damage? thats the whole point of the trait. You forget teef isn’t the only problem, you also have conditions. decoy, blink are a must leaving 1 optional utility- either portal ( maybe have a spot on a team) or condi mantra ( and not be on a team ). take that into mind and then lower the burst potential of a burst class…. why then are you even bringing a mesmer?

Dude just stay calm instead of overreacting to every suggestion that you perceive as threatening to you as a mesmer. How about some constructive suggestions instead?

Ele!

Elemental Attunement: Reduce protection to 3 seconds
Elemental Shielding: Grants regen instead of protection.
Renewing stamina: ICD to 10 seconds
Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per pulse

Engie!

Gearshield: Either increase cd to 30 seconds or reduce duration to 2 seconds.
Overcharged shot: .5 second cast-time and a small increase to cooldown.
Incendiary powder: Grant a glowing effect to the engie’s weapon when the next attack procs burning to allow the opponent to evade.
Protection Injection: Increase ICD to 15 seconds.

Warrior!

Cleansing Ire: On Longbow specifically, the initial hit MUST hit a target to cleanse any conditions.
Call to Arms: Reduce vigor to 6 seconds.
Quick breathing: Remove conversion and just have it remove a condition instead.

Had more in mind but these are considered “small” by my standards.

@Arken ( med guardian ), @Arrdee (engi)

Your posts are so ridiculously biased, they will never be taken seriously by any person capable of rational thought, just stop with your non-sense, rather save time and ask to delete elementalist as class, directly…..

it’s worth mention your shared hatred for shoutwarrior, this is the second build you want to see deleted apparently…and @Arrdee,, your “nerf” proposal for engi are hilarious, why do you even bother writing them? A 10% dmg reduction? A 0.5 casting animation? Are you freaking kidding me or what?

Such posts should be deleted for trolling, that’s what they are

i’m really glad nobody here works for arenanet.

I usually ignore Supreme but i’ll do it justice by explaining my listed changes with facts.

Drake’s breath still gives Elementalist’s the highest AoE uptime of burning without any sort of investment what-so-ever. This cannot be disputed.

I may have went overboard with the protection reduction/removal so i’d be more than willing to revert said changes. At the very least, Elemental shielding should be looked at.

Engineer Gearshield is too strong, i’m trying to bring it inline with other blocks. 3 seconds for a 20 sec cd is too good. Instant-casts(overcharged shot) need an animation/cast time since there’s no surefire way to avoid it outside of lucky mitigation.

Incendiary powder has absolutely no way to mitigate. Giving your opponent a way to avoid dmg makes sense here. Finally, being rewarded for being CCed(protection) makes little-to-no sense. If I successfully CC you, your punishment shouldn’t a boon.

Warriors are a given as well. The concept behind cleansing ire was to successfully hit your target and be rewarded with condi-cleanse. Longbow completely forgoes that.

Edit: Don’t bother with the posts above. Those playing the top 3 professions and not acknowledge ANY issue’s what-so-ever are also delusional.

Supreme.3164:

@Arken ( med guardian ), @Arrdee (engi)

Your posts are so ridiculously biased, they will never be taken seriously by any person capable of rational thought, just stop with your non-sense, rather save time and ask to delete elementalist as class, directly…..

it’s worth mention your shared hatred for shoutwarrior, this is the second build you want to see deleted apparently…and @Arrdee,, your “nerf” proposal for engi are hilarious, why do you even bother writing them? A 10% dmg reduction? A 0.5 casting animation? Are you freaking kidding me or what?

Such posts should be deleted for trolling, that’s what they are

I guess bringing Elementalist and Warrior vigor in line with every other class is so nerfed that we may as well delete them! #Logic!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Arken.3725:

I usually ignore Supreme but i’ll do it justice by explaining my listed changes with facts.

Drake’s breath still gives Elementalist’s the highest AoE uptime of burning without any sort of investment what-so-ever. This cannot be disputed.

I may have went overboard with the protection reduction/removal so i’d be more than willing to revert said changes. At the very least, Elemental shielding should be looked at.

Engineer Gearshield is too strong, i’m trying to bring it inline with other blocks. 3 seconds for a 20 sec cd is too good. Instant-casts(overcharged shot) need an animation/cast time since there’s no surefire way to avoid it outside of lucky mitigation.

Incendiary powder has absolutely no way to mitigate. Giving your opponent a way to avoid dmg makes sense here. Finally, being rewarded for being CCed(protection) makes little-to-no sense. If I successfully CC you, your punishment shouldn’t a boon.

Warriors are a given as well. The concept behind cleansing ire was to successfully hit your target and be rewarded with condi-cleanse. Longbow completely forgoes that.

Edit: Don’t bother with the posts above. Those playing the top 3 professions and not acknowledge ANY issue’s what-so-ever are also delusional.

drake’s breath is a big part of ele’s damage. the only 3 damaging skills an ele has is burning speed which is highly telegraphed, fire grab which requires burning to hit hard and drake’s breath. every smart player will keep a condi cleanse or a block for that skill.

ele has the lowest health pool with the lowest armor. guess why we have a high protection and vigour uptime. give me a higher health pool / armor and i’m gladly willing to give up some of my protection and vigour duration.

gearshield is strong but also an engi’s death sentence when you know how to use unblockable skills, especially when the engi’s low health. tha maximum justified cd increase would be 5s.
overcharged shot is a tricky one, it’s a mind play skill and every not so smart engi will run up to you screaming “hey dude ima knock you now”.
it only gets dangerous against engis that know when to use it. another thing that makes it strong is the short cd immob. the reason this skill doesn’t have a casting time (updraft doesnt have one either btw but on a longer cd) is because it knocks yourself over aswell.

i agree on IP though, an indication that this trait is up now, like sigil icons, and making it dodgeable would be a fair change.

the concept for combustive shot is landing your fire field. as long as you land it it counts for cleansing ire. block or interrupt it and you can keep the warrior from cleansing, simple as that.

No thank you

Message Body length must at least be 15.

The base design of the ele is terribly bad , the most ill conceived profession idea I ever seen in a MMO to date. This has already been acknowledged by the devs, By @JonPeters, the latter specifically stated ( Dec 2013 )that he will leave the ele the way it is…no matter how much people ( ele players ) scream for justice or simple redesign.

Now these powerful defensive tools, OP as some say, have been given to the ele as apparent compensation for the terrible design.

These tools make the ele, not just fun to play….but playable at all, any change on these tools is not feasible as it’d better to just delete and re-make profession.

So excuse me if I don’t give a kitten about what you consider fair, this is what ele has been given as defensive tools: dodges and healing.

For the ele community is either swim…or sink

-edit : am I even allowed to kill anything on an ele without being called OP?

So because of something that someone said way back in 2013, you think that lowering the vigor uptime from permanent to ~70% uptime on one of the tankiest builds in the meta (which can also deal decent damage) is such a terrible nerf that you equate it to deleting the entire class completely! #RationalThought!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Exedore.6320:

Jekkt.6045:

elemental attunement changes suggested by him are horrible, would destroy most of the non d/d builds as they heavily rely on that protection.

I’d like to see your reasoning.

d/f and d/d are the builds which rely heavily on the long protection duration because they’re in close combat often. Focus in the d/f build still gives it strong sustain even with less protection duration. Scepter and staff builds rely more on kiting and positioning to survive than taking hits for an extended time, so they won’t see a huge impact from slightly lower protection durations on earth swap.

why does mesmer need a nerf?

These weren’t major nerfs. The change I proposed to Halting Strike is in line with toning down other procs.

Shatter mesmer is fairly strong currently, but kept in check by thief. In toning down thief burst through reduced sigil damage and providing better stat selection, mesmer won’t be nearly as vulnerable to thief and will see wider play.

doom counters celestial, that’s why it’s used, why would you reduce the duration, even if it hits squishies too but that’s just a bonus.

The builds which predominately use Sigil of Doom are the celestial builds. Damage builds typically don’t use the sigil because they won’t last in drawn-out fights against a sustain build anyway. So by your reasoning, celestial builds are keeping celestial builds in check. They can do that without Sigil of Doom, which hurts other sustain builds and is a another obstacle for damage builds.

Also, keeping poison access restricted to professions abilities creates a more varied PvP environment; if poison is so powerful, a build which can apply it often becomes more enticing when compared to builds which can’t apply poison at all.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

cleansing ire is also working as intended, already balanced, there is no need to remove “embrace the pain” from cleansing ire.

Cleansing Ire has been a problem since it was introduced and still is. The condition clear it provides is one of the strongest in the game.

The key problem with Cleansing Ire is that it allows condition clear regardless of how well the warrior is playing because of the “Embrace the Pain” (gain adrenaline when hit) component. That component also keeps Adrenal Health (regenerate health based on adrenaline level) going strong. By removing the Embrace the Pain component, defensive builds have to land attacks in order to keep clearing conditions at a high rate. At the same time, this change also reduces their use of burst abilities, which provide a lot of damage.

Offensive builds won’t be restricted as much, because they’re generating adrenaline from attacks. This also makes choices more relevant between fast attack / multi-attack weapons, slow single attack weapons, and abilities which grant additional adrenaline.

The problem is, without Embrace the Pain, Warrior really struggles hard to keep any adrenaline. If Warrior was allowed to strike as many hits on any profession as on Necromancer, there would be no problem. But try getting adrenaline on S/D Thief, Mesmer or Engineer.

The thing that needs tuning is Combustive Shot. None of the other burst skills is as easy to land and scoring good Skull Crack or Eviscerate should be rewarded.

At the same time, we would have to tune some of the meta specs, too. Atm, the Thief’s greatest weapon, the shortbow, is able to nullify effectiveness of most full melee specs, along with Thief goes the Mesmer.

Believe or not, but I say that many Warriors would be grateful if you freed them from the burden called “Cleansing Ire Longbow” and went full melee in a second after. But sadly, reality hits, in current metas you simply need the Longbow for meta effectiveness.

Embrace the Pain is simply required.

Quite a few people have suggested nerfing “Renewing Stamina” on elementalists to 10 seconds.

The problem here is you are targeting dd eles and nerfing every other ele build in the process and none of those elementalist builds have been at the top of the food chain in ages. If this change is to go through ele will need compensated in some other way. And this other way will also likely affect all elementalist builds. So in the end we are just changing one thing in favor of another and perhaps arriving at the same end result.

See the problem we arrive at? At this point it might just be best to work around ele being the one class that can actually achieve permanent vigor. Maybe light armor with the lowest health pool warrants that?

When they nerfed vigor for Engis, Mesmers, and Guardians, they didn’t just nerf the meta builds! They nerfed all builds! Gadget Engi obviously isn’t at the top of the food chain and yet it was nerfed! Spirit Weapon Guardian, condi Mesmer.. These are not top tier builds and yet they were nerfed! This is because permanent vigor is absolutely insane in a game that values dodging as a core defensive mechanic across all classes! Why do you think Elementalists should be the only exception to the rule!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I hate posts like ‘we can’t nurf X because it is simply required’ or ‘withour Y you may just as well delete the class’. These don’t contain any information or argument not equating to ’don’t you dear nurfing my class’. D/D cele elementalist is probably the strongest class right now, or certainly one of the strongest whereas several classes struggle to the point of not having a fully viable meta build.

It is like the argument made to try justifying why there is so much AOE condi removal: ‘We NEED that because wihtout it we will be killed by conditions’. Well yes, which would be exactly the point – condition builds should actually work and we should not be limited to everyone playing berserker or celestial.

because, as was stated multiple times before, ele is a light armor class with the lowest hp-pool.

increase the hp-pool and you can reduce my vigour uptime to 50%. simple as that.

I agree with Vee Wee. Staff, D/D, scepter, so on do fine, even if they aren’t your “meta” builds. Arcana as a tree is grossly overshadowing any other tree and it shouldn’t come as a surprise. Perma vigor was nerfed because it created an unfun playing field of high evasion, and honestly at this point, if anyone needed to lose that I’d say Ele would be my first choice for many reasons. Arcana is fair too strong of a tree and ele sustain is amazing (zerkers maybe not as much, but I don’t think a zerker ele needs perma vigor to be effective, and it could be made up somehow in either scepter or focus abilities).

@phanta You really don’t see an issue when (just about, if not) all Ele builds require 4-6 points into Arcana to even be effective, but the builds that do somehow manage to take a low hp/light armor base class and turn it from otherwise unviable to arguably one of the strongest builds in the game? (D/D, but staff can be fairly effective too.)

I find it to be a real issue.

remove perma vigor from eles and engis.

Jekkt.6045:

because, as was stated multiple times before, ele is a light armor class with the lowest hp-pool.

increase the hp-pool and you can reduce my vigour uptime to 50%. simple as that.

So lowest hp light armor class that can also build to be one of the strongest and tankiest builds in the entire game, and you want to increase its health pool! Wowzerz! I don’t think you understand the concept of balance! When something is really, really, really strong and it gets nerfed, you don’t get to ask for anything in return!

Also Renewing Stamina cooldown being raised to 10 seconds isn’t 50% vigor uptime. It’s 60% with only 20 into the Arcane trait line, which every single Elementalist build will get! Most of them get 30 point which raises it to 65%! Combined with Soothing Disruption and maybe Energy Sigil, well that’s still dodges for DAYS and you guys are acting like that would be the end of the world! Just jokes!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

you still dont get that every ele berserk build, from BA to FA or LR needs the vigour hm? unlike engi which has 5k more hp, ele relys on such stuff, believe it or not.

it seems like you don’t understand what balance is at all. yes ele can build to be “tanky”, exactly because of the stuff you want to nerf, even after ele’s offense has already been nerfed twice.

and yes, mathematically increasing a 5 seconds boon with 5 seconds icd to a 5 seconds boon with 10 seconds icd is 100% uptime to 50% uptime, especially because not everybody traits 6 points into that line but 2-4 for other builds. those are the builds you try to nerf.
D/D doesnt care at all because they will still have enough vigour with soothing disruption.

Tissitra.4153:

I hate posts like ‘we can’t nurf X because it is simply required’ or ‘withour Y you may just as well delete the class’. These don’t contain any information or argument not equating to ’don’t you dear nurfing my class’. D/D cele elementalist is probably the strongest class right now, or certainly one of the strongest whereas several classes struggle to the point of not having a fully viable meta build.

It is like the argument made to try justifying why there is so much AOE condi removal: ‘We NEED that because wihtout it we will be killed by conditions’. Well yes, which would be exactly the point – condition builds should actually work and we should not be limited to everyone playing berserker or celestial.

The one struggling is the ele and not other classes
Don’t come to me with an offensive build and complain because you don’t survive as long as me who invest every freaking trait in defense, my offensive build get trashed by yours and you still have the opportunity to go the bunker route on your profession.

You say that attrition build on your profession is no meta..and how that exactly relate to me?

Have you ever played against : mantra bunker mesmer, SA thief, well/minion necro, HAVE YOU???? , go on and call me noob, scrub whatever, my point remains. The sustain potential of every profession is there, it’s equal ground for everybody; it’s not meta; you don’t like it…your problem, not mine, the option is there.

And about condi removal, don’t even go there, with what courage you say that condi builds in this game don’t work? with what courage you say condi removal too strong?

That profession comes, press the auto-attack…the freaking auto-atatck and applies 4-5 conditions on you thx to traits, sigil, runes and you, you try to tell me that condi removal in this game it’s too strong…get out pls, just get out

ArrDee.2573:

Jekkt.6045:

because, as was stated multiple times before, ele is a light armor class with the lowest hp-pool.

increase the hp-pool and you can reduce my vigour uptime to 50%. simple as that.

So lowest hp light armor class that can also build to be one of the strongest and tankiest builds in the entire game, and you want to increase its health pool! Wowzerz! I don’t think you understand the concept of balance! When something is really, really, really strong and it gets nerfed, you don’t get to ask for anything in return!

Also Renewing Stamina cooldown being raised to 10 seconds isn’t 50% vigor uptime. It’s 60% with only 20 into the Arcane trait line, which every single Elementalist build will get! Most of them get 30 point which raises it to 65%! Combined with Soothing Disruption and maybe Energy Sigil, well that’s still dodges for DAYS and you guys are acting like that would be the end of the world! Just jokes!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I think you can’t even read, it has already been said multiple times that with an increase in HP by a mere 5k HP, it’d be possible to decrease vigor uptime with no repercussion.

I think that being forced to sit on a 10K base HP in a game where some professions can unleash over 8k dmg with the press of a single button, more than justify the current vigor uptime

Supreme.3164:

Tissitra.4153:

I hate posts like ‘we can’t nurf X because it is simply required’ or ‘withour Y you may just as well delete the class’. These don’t contain any information or argument not equating to ’don’t you dear nurfing my class’. D/D cele elementalist is probably the strongest class right now, or certainly one of the strongest whereas several classes struggle to the point of not having a fully viable meta build.

It is like the argument made to try justifying why there is so much AOE condi removal: ‘We NEED that because wihtout it we will be killed by conditions’. Well yes, which would be exactly the point – condition builds should actually work and we should not be limited to everyone playing berserker or celestial.

The one struggling is the ele and not other classes
Don’t come to me with an offensive build and complain because you don’t survive as long as me who invest every freaking trait in defense, my offensive build get trashed by yours and you still have the opportunity to go the bunker route on your profession.

You say that attrition build on your profession is no meta..and how that exactly relate to me?

Have you ever played against : mantra bunker mesmer, SA thief, well/minion necro, HAVE YOU???? , go on and call me noob, scrub whatever, my point remains. The sustain potential of every profession is there, it’s equal ground for everybody; it’s not meta; you don’t like it…your problem, not mine, the option is there.

And about condi removal, don’t even go there, with what courage you say that condi builds in this game don’t work? with what courage you say condi removal too strong?

That profession comes, press the auto-attack…the freaking auto-atatck and applies 4-5 conditions on you thx to traits, sigil, runes and you, you try to tell me that condi removal in this game it’s too strong…get out pls, just get out

Well that’s quite a rant. There is a website for meta builds: metabattle. But even without that, pure condition builds indeed no longer work well, which is big part of the reason why condi necros and rangers have been mostly replaced by power and condi engis by celestial. Fact of the matter is that celestial builds are largely responsible for the current lack of diversity in the meta.

Supreme… You should really take a chill pill…

Your option for sustain is there – do not say that there is not, because you gave the examples of builds which cannot even be utilized within PvP to a minimal level, let alone mid- or high-tier play
Does that mean you cannot play Fresh Air? Oh noes… A disaster…
Or well, a year ago that would be a disaster if Fresh Air is the only viable build, but it is not a year ago, so it is not… There are at least 2 other builds that come to mind which have reached all levels of play, leaving Fresh Air an option – but not the end of all – and even as a Zerk build it is not completely terrible… Suboptimal maybe, but some professions are like that as a whole

Let’s take Mesmers now as an example – what do they have? Don’t tell me Mantra Mesmers are a thing, because they are not… They got one viable build, and one that is debatably “just as good, or slightly worse”, being Shatter and Interrupt respectively
In what way differs the Mesmer from an Ele, that leaves the Mesmer a profession that struggles? Simple – Mesmers only have the “Fresh Air” equivalent as a build, rather than another option with two viable builds as a whole – and even on their burst build, the struggle is real concerning Conquest as a gamemode

Don’t be so blinded by your preferences for playing Ele, and your attraction towards DPS Ele… Your comments are becomming more and more aggressive, biased and uninformative, which in the long run will not help you in debates… Keep your head cool, your information straight…
While I would argue against a nerf to the Elementalists now – you need to realize that they are fine, or else they would not be picked by all the teams that are playing in mid- to high tier

Also, Condi builds in PvP aside from maybe Terror Necro do not work that well anymore from Mid-tier and higher… Terror Necro is oftentimes used for the CC’s anyway instead of the condition pressure, and it happens to remove boons in a neat fashion that it is not completely terrible… Condi Engi, Spirit/Survivalist Ranger and heck, even M/Sw Carrion Warrior are far from a solid pick within the current meta… They might be troublesome on a blue monday – but they are relatively easy to deal with, with a proper team setup

There is really nothing else to say in this thread.

In the end what every player wish: it’s to have fun, to win/lose in a fair manner, nobody likes to be oneshotted, nobody.

To be killed in few secs by anybody in a matter of few seconds it’s frustating, but it become unbearable when you know that the opponent won with 1/5 of your effort

Personally no matter what people may say, no ele will ever b able to win a single match with less effort than the opponent, it’s always equal or greater effort.

Have 2 noobs fight each other, one on ele and the other using a different profession…the latter will win majority of times…every one knows that

LOL

“Permanent vigor is too strong!”
“BOLD WORDS CAPS LOCK INSULTS INCREASE ELE HEALTH BY 5000!”

Wahoo! Bye frands!

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Supreme… You should really take a chill pill…

Your option for sustain is there – do not say that there is not, because you gave the examples of builds which cannot even be utilized within PvP to a minimal level, let alone mid- or high-tier play
Does that mean you cannot play Fresh Air? Oh noes… A disaster…
Or well, a year ago that would be a disaster if Fresh Air is the only viable build, but it is not a year ago, so it is not… There are at least 2 other builds that come to mind which have reached all levels of play, leaving Fresh Air an option – but not the end of all – and even as a Zerk build it is not completely terrible… Suboptimal maybe, but some professions are like that as a whole

Let’s take Mesmers now as an example – what do they have? Don’t tell me Mantra Mesmers are a thing, because they are not… They got one viable build, and one that is debatably “just as good, or slightly worse”, being Shatter and Interrupt respectively
In what way differs the Mesmer from an Ele, that leaves the Mesmer a profession that struggles? Simple – Mesmers only have the “Fresh Air” equivalent as a build, rather than another option with two viable builds as a whole – and even on their burst build, the struggle is real concerning Conquest as a gamemode

Don’t be so blinded by your preferences for playing Ele, and your attraction towards DPS Ele… Your comments are becomming more and more aggressive, biased and uninformative, which in the long run will not help you in debates… Keep your head cool, your information straight…
While I would argue against a nerf to the Elementalists now – you need to realize that they are fine, or else they would not be picked by all the teams that are playing in mid- to high tier

Also, Condi builds in PvP aside from maybe Terror Necro do not work that well anymore from Mid-tier and higher… Terror Necro is oftentimes used for the CC’s anyway instead of the condition pressure, and it happens to remove boons in a neat fashion that it is not completely terrible… Condi Engi, Spirit/Survivalist Ranger and heck, even M/Sw Carrion Warrior are far from a solid pick within the current meta… They might be troublesome on a blue monday – but they are relatively easy to deal with, with a proper team setup

The ele is not fine at all, the profession is a couple of nerfs away from the trash can where it was for well over one year. A single amulet, same set of utilities and traits…that’s not fine at all by my terms.

The profession has not been buffed..since forever, it’s still water/arcana or go bust, it has been like this since launch.

I fully realize that my comments come as aggressive and biased but bear with me..you need to realize how horrible was to play an ele prior to april patch( where nothing changed anyway, the base concept remained the same).

The proposed nerfs to ele( protection and vigor) would make ele extremely vulnerable again..to thieves, this profession alone destroy over 80% of possible ele builds ( fresh air, signet builds, d/f ect etc )

ArrDee.2573:

LOL

“Permanent vigor is too strong!”
“BOLD WORDS CAPS LOCK INSULTS INCREASE ELE HEALTH BY 5000!”

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Your derogatory tone is not less insulting than my comments

Tissitra.4153:

Supreme.3164:

Tissitra.4153:

I hate posts like ‘we can’t nurf X because it is simply required’ or ‘withour Y you may just as well delete the class’. These don’t contain any information or argument not equating to ’don’t you dear nurfing my class’. D/D cele elementalist is probably the strongest class right now, or certainly one of the strongest whereas several classes struggle to the point of not having a fully viable meta build.

It is like the argument made to try justifying why there is so much AOE condi removal: ‘We NEED that because wihtout it we will be killed by conditions’. Well yes, which would be exactly the point – condition builds should actually work and we should not be limited to everyone playing berserker or celestial.

The one struggling is the ele and not other classes
Don’t come to me with an offensive build and complain because you don’t survive as long as me who invest every freaking trait in defense, my offensive build get trashed by yours and you still have the opportunity to go the bunker route on your profession.

You say that attrition build on your profession is no meta..and how that exactly relate to me?

Have you ever played against : mantra bunker mesmer, SA thief, well/minion necro, HAVE YOU???? , go on and call me noob, scrub whatever, my point remains. The sustain potential of every profession is there, it’s equal ground for everybody; it’s not meta; you don’t like it…your problem, not mine, the option is there.

And about condi removal, don’t even go there, with what courage you say that condi builds in this game don’t work? with what courage you say condi removal too strong?

That profession comes, press the auto-attack…the freaking auto-atatck and applies 4-5 conditions on you thx to traits, sigil, runes and you, you try to tell me that condi removal in this game it’s too strong…get out pls, just get out

Well that’s quite a rant. There is a website for meta builds: metabattle. But even without that, pure condition builds indeed no longer work well, which is big part of the reason why condi necros and rangers have been mostly replaced by power and condi engis by celestial. Fact of the matter is that celestial builds are largely responsible for the current lack of diversity in the meta.

I beg to differ! All current celestial meta pack a kitten load of condi removal, there is not a single meta build that has not access to multiple condi removal skills….guess the real culprit behind the lack of build diversity lies “elsewhere”

Did you really just say well or MM me to have as much sustain as an Ele…? Whaaat? MM is garbage and good at 1v1 and not because of “sustain”, but a high initial Health pool and hoping minions kill someone before AOEd down in 10 seconds or less. In a team fight they have essentially no sustain. O.O

I don’t get people who play Engies, Eles and Thieves. So many seem so entirely detached from reality. >_>

The problem stems from those arguing against nerfs that don’t bring in any concrete facts aside from subjectivity. All I’ve been hearing from defenders is, “this will delete the class.” Give an explanation as to why and I, as well as many others will hear you out.

Heres a couple changes I would make, just to tell you guys my situation, I main ele so I might be biased

D/D:
-remove what they did a while back, burning speed evade and/or frozen burst being a blast finisher
-Make churning earth usable, lowering damage and cast time

Scepter:
-Make dragon’s tooth aoe edit I mean ground target
-Buff autos they really suck
-Make shattersone worth casting, either it chills or does more damage
-eles need a shorter defensive cd so maybe give ob flesh shorter duration and short cd

-Staff:
-Fire and Water attunement are fine the way they are
-Air auto should only hit 1 target but do more damage than fire
-air 2 has an incredible cast time for the small damage it does so either shorter cast time or more damage
-make air 3 reliable, currently any side movement on either end makes it miss
-in earth erruption need a short cast time/errupt time, currently it takes 2 ccs to secure it (3 if they are running)

LeftyGamer.8096:

Heres a couple changes I would make, just to tell you guys my situation, I main ele so I might be biased

D/D:
-remove what they did a while back, burning speed evade and/or frozen burst being a blast finisher
-Make churning earth usable, lowering damage and cast time

Scepter:
-Make dragon’s tooth aoe
-Buff autos they really suck
-Make shattersone worth casting, either it chills or does more damage
-eles need a shorter defensive cd so maybe give ob flesh shorter duration and short cd

-Staff:
-Fire and Water attunement are fine the way they are
-Air auto should only hit 1 target but do more damage than fire
-air 2 has an incredible cast time for the small damage it does so either shorter cast time or more damage
-make air 3 reliable, currently any side movement on either end makes it miss
-in earth erruption need a short cast time/errupt time, currently it takes 2 ccs to secure it (3 if they are running)

What do you mean by “Make dragon’s tooth AoE”? Like ground targeted?

ronpierce.2760:

LeftyGamer.8096:

Heres a couple changes I would make, just to tell you guys my situation, I main ele so I might be biased

D/D:
-remove what they did a while back, burning speed evade and/or frozen burst being a blast finisher
-Make churning earth usable, lowering damage and cast time

Scepter:
-Make dragon’s tooth aoe
-Buff autos they really suck
-Make shattersone worth casting, either it chills or does more damage
-eles need a shorter defensive cd so maybe give ob flesh shorter duration and short cd

-Staff:
-Fire and Water attunement are fine the way they are
-Air auto should only hit 1 target but do more damage than fire
-air 2 has an incredible cast time for the small damage it does so either shorter cast time or more damage
-make air 3 reliable, currently any side movement on either end makes it miss
-in earth erruption need a short cast time/errupt time, currently it takes 2 ccs to secure it (3 if they are running)

What do you mean by “Make dragon’s tooth AoE”? Like ground targeted?

Yes my bad that’s what I meant

Ah. Yeah I could see that. +1. Adds a skill factor to it, I’m down with that.

echo.2053:

Exedore.6320:

Mesmer
- Mirror Blade no longer unblockable
High damage attacks should be blockable.

oh I missed this gem lol – guys i think this skill should be nerfed because its highly telegraphed with a slow moving projectile, theres just no chance of my DODGING it so all I can do is block but its unblockable and i think its unfair pouty face

Give me a reason it shouldn’t be unblockable like practically every other damaging ability instead of crying that you’d no longer be able to spam it into blocks and not be punished for it.

Besides phoenix (which I also said to change), the only other naturally unblockable skills are ground-effect spells, interrupts, or boon steals. Making Mirror Blade blockable gives it consistency within the game. Why should a dodge or evade work, but a block shouldn’t?

Rym.1469:

The problem is, without Embrace the Pain, Warrior really struggles hard to keep any adrenaline. If Warrior was allowed to strike as many hits on any profession as on Necromancer, there would be no problem. But try getting adrenaline on S/D Thief, Mesmer or Engineer.

I’ll definitely agree that what you’ve pointed out is a problem. However, leaving Embrace the Pain as part of Cleansing Ire isn’t a good solution.

Exedore.6320:

echo.2053:

Exedore.6320:

Mesmer
- Mirror Blade no longer unblockable
High damage attacks should be blockable.

oh I missed this gem lol – guys i think this skill should be nerfed because its highly telegraphed with a slow moving projectile, theres just no chance of my DODGING it so all I can do is block but its unblockable and i think its unfair pouty face

Give me a reason it shouldn’t be unblockable like practically every other damaging ability instead of crying that you’d no longer be able to spam it into blocks and not be punished for it.

Besides phoenix (which I also said to change), the only other naturally unblockable skills are ground-effect spells, interrupts, or boon steals. Making Mirror Blade blockable gives it consistency within the game. Why should a dodge or evade work, but a block shouldn’t?

Rym.1469:

The problem is, without Embrace the Pain, Warrior really struggles hard to keep any adrenaline. If Warrior was allowed to strike as many hits on any profession as on Necromancer, there would be no problem. But try getting adrenaline on S/D Thief, Mesmer or Engineer.

I’ll definitely agree that what you’ve pointed out is a problem. However, leaving Embrace the Pain as part of Cleansing Ire isn’t a good solution.

Imho, the Embrace the Pain part should be baseline for the class. For “rage” sort of classes, it often is, and frankly, warrior Adrenaline gain can be pretty awful. I think if they made it baseline it’d help diversify builds without nerfing (or buffing) current builds that run CI. Just a personal feels, though. Running without CI (even regardless of the condi clear) it just feels awful.

Thief:
-Remove initiative, each time a skill is used more than 2 times in a row, scale thief’s health pool down by 25% for being a cheap piece of kitten.

-Steal rework: reduce CD to 0 seconds. New functionality: while in combat, steals the weapon skills of target and assigns them to the thief’s bar in sequential order (steal on target a = thief 2 becomes target a’s 2, steal on target b = thief 3 becomes target b’s 2, steal on target b again = thief 4 becomes target b’s 3, steal on target a again = thief 5 becomes target a’s 3). With a rolling replace functionality on the 5 skill (stealing again while bar is full of stolen skills replaces thief 5 skill, cooldowns are bound to the thief). Save these skills upon weapon swap, so you can have 2 full bars of stolen skills and swap between them.
Out of combat: “Steal” becomes “Stealth”: enter stealth while out of combat (no duration). Remove all other ways of getting into stealth except utilities, make them static stealth (no duration). Nerf everything else about those skills.
-Add an f2 that throws away the last stolen skill.

Scrap the whole thread. If it isn’t profession bias, it condition vs. burst bias. This is accomplishing nothing except revealing showing (in some cases yet again) what are the person preferences of the posters.

ArrDee.2573:

• Ray of Judgement renamed to something else because RoJ was a thuper awesome attack in Guild Warts 1 and now it’s a little pipsqueak poop in Guild Warts 2! Perhaps a new Guardian elite can be introduced later called Ray of Judgement and it will do the old skill justice! Maybe we can rename this one to Ray of Poopers!

ray of judgement is awesome

echo.2053:

Tissitra.4153:

I play mesmer mostly and would like them to be BUFFED with the main issue to me being lack of sustain. Mug on thieves works very well in its current implementation (no more crits but healing); since halting strike has no internal cooldown giving it a healing portion might indeed amount to good sustain.

As for the revealed part: you could of course add it instead to chaos storm / null field / temporal curtain. My point was simply to suggest something that would make thieves less of a hardcounter to mesmers.

no the game needs to move away from this whole sustain idea, this is why were at the point where esportz is 2 tanks circling each other for 5 mins. It may have worked in gw1 but there enhantments could be shattered or the player had to cast the skill that could be interupted potientally leading to a long cooldown.

yes no cooldown on hs however the interrupts themselves are the cooldown with more punishment to the mesmer than to the opponent. mesmer interrupts need to be buffed to stand out rather then be over shadowed by other classes who can perform the same role with better survivability.

example since teefs don’t suffer as much from interrupts/chill as much as other classes and got kitten when their skills did go on a 10 sec cooldown it could be changed so that when a mesmer ( and only a mesmer) interrupts a teef the teef loses 2 init.

Rangers/engies already have a reveal debuff on a 10 sec cooldown. Its either worthless or too strong to keep it proportionate on 25+ sec cd skills.

What may have worked in GW1? There were no “tanks” in GW1 meta. There often was very little self-heal and/or utility in terms of condition-removal or other purely defensive Utilities, because you had dedicated healers.

There were some Split-Builds with Chars that we’re more “allrounders” with more self-heal and utility so they could work in smaller teams of 1-3, but other than that, most utility was on the 2 Monks and one Off-supporter and depending on the Meta, some Condition/Hex-removal or 1 AoE-Heal on certain classes like Mesmer/Ele.

I agree with you that I’d like the meta to shift more in a direction where not every class needs to be a “catch-all” self-sufficient allrounder. It won’t be to the same degree than in GW1, but It should move a bit more towards that.

The way to do that is for example by making certain niche-builds viable enough to warrant that they’re being played because they are that valuable in teamfights to make their epic suckage in 1v1’s bearable. ^^’

A few Ideas could be, heavily borrowing from GW1:

Mesmer
- PowerBlock: Yes, this one neeeds to be buffed – it could be absolutely epic in teamfights, it’s very hard to use effectively and it should be rewarded much more. My Idea is, that if you interrupt a heal or utility skill or elite, it should not only have 10 sec additional CD, but 30 and it should make your interrupts unblockable (they still wouldn’t go through stability, which could make teamfights more interesting when ppl needed stability from stuff like Guardian to use certain important skills.

- Give Mesmer Diversion back! But since the mesmer is already packed to the max with very important utility-skills, it should be in the form of a trait. Probably a Grandmaster-trait that makes your mindwrack place a 1,5 second effect on the target (for each illusion that hits), which makes their next skill used have a 30 second increased CD.

I’d also really like to see some purely supportive targeted Utilities (or with HoT even a weapon with almost exclusively supportive stuff). I get that ANet doesn’t want the holy trinity and pure healing classes, but a few skills you could target on one ally wouldn’t destroy this philosophy. Not everything in support of others has to be a dumbed down AoE you just press when teammates are near you or an AoE you place on the ground. Just give each class 1 Utility they can target on teammates and teammates only – not on themselves! Or maybe it would just get way weaker if they use it in themselves. Sth like this:

Guardian: 20 sec CD, target ally gets Aegis and 5 seconds of protection. If used on yourself, gain 3 seconds of protection (instant)
Ele: 15 s CD, target ally gets Frost Aura for 3 seconds and 5 seconds of regeneration, if used on yourself, gain 5 seconds of regeneration. (3/4 s casttime)
Ranger: 30 sec CD, send your pet to guard target ally for 5 seconds, absorbing 50% of the dmg received and drawing two conditions from them. If used on yourself, your pet will draw two conditions from you. (instant)

Booms.3952:

ArrDee.2573:

• Ray of Judgement renamed to something else because RoJ was a thuper awesome attack in Guild Warts 1 and now it’s a little pipsqueak poop in Guild Warts 2! Perhaps a new Guardian elite can be introduced later called Ray of Judgement and it will do the old skill justice! Maybe we can rename this one to Ray of Poopers!

ray of judgement is awesome

Ray of Judgement in Guild Warts 1 was the greatest! Ray of Judgement in Guild Warts 2 is just poopers in comparison! 2bad there’s no good video of it on Youtube! I like you Booms but not enough to install Guild Warts 1 to show you!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

ArrDee.2573:

arrdee you tell it like it is!

Supreme.3164:

The ele is not fine at all, the profession is a couple of nerfs away from the trash can where it was for well over one year. A single amulet, same set of utilities and traits…that’s not fine at all by my terms.

Like… Nearly all professions in the game? Or are Gadget Engineers a thing? Signet Warriors? I could go on, but I will not – welcome to Metagaming, this happens to any and all of the competitive games…

Though do not be fooled, you do not need to run three cantrips – I myself switch out quite frequently for say Glyph of Storms or Icebow (from Cleansing Fire), just to get extra defense or pressure… Will it be used in top-tier? I doubt it, but since I do not play in it, I can comforably use it without being a burden
Of course, this being on a D/D Celementalist

The profession has not been buffed..since forever, it’s still water/arcana or go bust, it has been like this since launch.

Actually, the profession has been buffed, but the buffs have not surpassed the usefulness of Water/Arcana
The blindness trait on Burning (grandmaster), is a trait that could’ve easily be one of the coolest things in the game, but it had this incredibly bad ICD – making the tradeoff for either going fully into Water/Arcana vs Fire an easy one
And this, once more, is not reserved to Elementalists, because I cannot name you any build on a Necromancer that uses Renewing Blast

I fully realize that my comments come as aggressive and biased but bear with me..you need to realize how horrible was to play an ele prior to april patch( where nothing changed anyway, the base concept remained the same).

I think I made it fully clear that I already do – I played Ele quite a lot for my doing prior to April 15th, and it had to be on Fresh Air… What was even worse was that Fresh Air was a suboptimal build in an incredibly harsh meta – while it is somewhat more bearable in this one

The proposed nerfs to ele( protection and vigor) would make ele extremely vulnerable again..to thieves, this profession alone destroy over 80% of possible ele builds ( fresh air, signet builds, d/f ect etc )

Well, considering vigor did get nerfed on say Engineers while they also had a zerk build (S/D), you cannot count on niche builds protecting certain things from being overpowered

The traits, to me, are just fine though… When a D/D Ele uses EA, they will dodge more frequently, so it is not hard to see them wasting dodges, wait for water to be done and pin the Elementalist down…
The protection trait is another one of these… useful maybe, but again not terribly hard to burn through the extra protection – especially not with the semi-condis which most other professions seem to love so much in this meta

I am more in line what LeftyGamer proposed… It would only hit a certain build and not the profession as a whole – with the addition to rework Focus, because Fire is incredibly bad at the moment

-Necros should lose life force until they are at 50% when out of combat (always stacking up 100% is just too good and unlike adrenaline u can keep it forever)
-Mesmers should get some baseline condition remove options for example on torch 5
-S/D thieves: don’t make the auto attack reset after any kind of skill usage unlike any other class. OR somehow buff the 1st and 2nd auto attack’s damage or maybe make the second auto attack hit 2 times for smaller amount of damage to be able to proc fire/air sigils. at this time d/p thieves can hit 3 times with thier 1st and 2nd attack in their auto attack chain while sword can hit just once (if you test dps on golems sword deals more damage but in the reality dp deals a lot more damage because hitting often makes it harder to ddoge, more sigils procs, and the main damage is at the start of the auto attack chain instead of the end -which is really weird- on sword its really rare to land ur 3rd hit on autoattack thats why its crap)

ArrDee.2573:

LOL

“Permanent vigor is too strong!”
“BOLD WORDS CAPS LOCK INSULTS INCREASE ELE HEALTH BY 5000!”

Wahoo! Bye frands!

The hypocrisy is strong in you when you compare ele’s vigour to mesmer’s or guardian’s when it’s already a major trait. On top of that, IP is master trait while dhuumfire is grandmaster one.

ArrDee.2573:

Because burning from a Necromancer is much different than burning from an Engineer!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

rotten.9753:

ArrDee.2573:

LOL

“Permanent vigor is too strong!”
“BOLD WORDS CAPS LOCK INSULTS INCREASE ELE HEALTH BY 5000!”

Wahoo! Bye frands!

The hypocrisy is strong in you when you compare ele’s vigour to mesmer’s or guardian’s when it’s already a major trait. On top of that, IP is master trait while dhuumfire is grandmaster one.

ArrDee.2573:

Because burning from a Necromancer is much different than burning from an Engineer!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

There is a bit of truth in that, considering Necro has Terror, they have an additional unique hard-hitting condition.

That said, IP still needs nerfed.

Ele Vigor could use a nerf too. In general, the Arcana tree is too powerful, while other trees aren’t good enough. Long story short, a lot of major rebalancing is needed, not necessarily just small changes here and there.