Guild Wars 2

Grenix.1576:

Turret engie is only good in hotjoin. OR if placed well in a very balanced team. Other then that they are not that good. Turret engie is only 33% effective with turret build, while a good roaming engie with kits can be more then that.

No. It is good for any uncoordinated team. As I mentioned, that applies to all hot join, all solo queue and at least 50% of team queue. It takes a smart team strategy to beat it. It is just too effective for how easy it is to play.

jebro.6370:

Engineer is having its turn for some discomfort in terms of rage. Hambow had it Minion Mancer had it Spirit Ranger had it. The AI helps, but how many times have you played against a casual spvper running one of those builds and have won? Some skill and knowledge of sPVP is still needed to be truely effective in a team.

Actually, Engi had bigger complaints during the decap days. At least those engis had to play though.

jebro.6370:

No competitive teams high end in GW2 are using turrets to the max. Thats just the truth. Theres a reason for that. They can come into a team of course and be effective, but more than likely the opposite team will counter fast.

You made my point. Turret engi is not an issue for COORDINATED teams. As I keep mentioning though, hot join, solo queue, and at least 50% of team queue is pug. The build is broken there.

style.6173:

jebro.6370:

Engineer is having its turn for some discomfort in terms of rage. Hambow had it Minion Mancer had it Spirit Ranger had it. The AI helps, but how many times have you played against a casual spvper running one of those builds and have won? Some skill and knowledge of sPVP is still needed to be truely effective in a team.

Actually, Engi had bigger complaints during the decap days. At least those engis had to play though.

jebro.6370:

No competitive teams high end in GW2 are using turrets to the max. Thats just the truth. Theres a reason for that. They can come into a team of course and be effective, but more than likely the opposite team will counter fast.

You made my point. Turret engi is not an issue for COORDINATED teams. As I keep mentioning though, hot join, solo queue, and at least 50% of team queue is pug. The build is broken there.

I dont agree in it being broken tbh, turrets are used now, people will get over it as they learn to adapt this is the early anger of the build. The knockback will calm some of those nerves I think.

7 8 9 0 #instawin

I don’t think the reduced knockback will solve the issues of this cancer.
Turrets are too resilient, do a lot of damage, and the engi can easily spec with bunker stats that the turrets will not be affected in the slightest, and they will still wear you down eventually.
Also, most turret are RANGED – they can be placed outside the point to do some insane damage on the people there.

Resilient lol...it’s because they don’t move that they cannot be critically hit or affected by conditions lol cancer tell me what pvp is about again? The knocback was my only complaint about them so far for other it’s the fact that they don’t move that seems to be the issue they fit in nicely in conquest just like bunker support builds.

Conquest is in favor of them...you have more chance of seeing MM necro then turret engi in wvw.

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

The game should be balanced at high levels! Turret Engis are complete garbage at high levels! They are even garbage at mid level! If the game was balanced based on the whims of the average hotjoin player, then… well Vee Wee doesn’t even want to imagine that scenario! Vee Wee bets that Heartseeker would do no damage at all! Turret Engis are fine!

Edit: This is also why Vee Wee thinks Anet should consult top players of every class when making balance decisions! Valve often talks with the best Counter Strikes players on map decisions and gun changes and whatever! They also consult with the best Dota2 players in the world when it comes to hero balance! Anet should do the same! Developers are just developers! They are not the best players!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Honestly I feel like the turret engi as a whole does its one job very well. It’s a point defense/support build. It cant be anything else. Which is part of the reason it can be difficult to make it work against a team that knows how to fight them.

Due to there innate limitations which they share not only with other AI builds (caving to focus fire in moments for example…especially condis in the engineers perspective) but also to ANY build that focuses ENTIRELY on one single aspect of the match it can be counter comped ACCIDENTALLY.

Turret engis are decently strong on a point sure. But thats the ONLY place there strong. I will NEVER be afraid of a turret engi mid field. Because Im simply going to CC him with something run past and take the point behind him before he can get there and set up his bots.

Another Issue is alot of people simply havnt learned to prioritize there damage and survivability in this game. Only the most experienced players have shown even a small sign of actually observing how there being hit and making decisions to deal with that.

A turret engi’s damage will come from 2 or 3 sources. However his damage is subpar compared to another builds the moment you stop one or two of those sources form hitting you. However it can be a bit difficult because its practically fighting a war of attrition (much like fighting any AI build is) You have to muscle through punishing fire long enough to break the turret engis hold OR bring enough fire power on your side to “shock and awe” the point.

However most players don’t care enough to even TRY to think about what there doing wrong. When they lose they dont think “what the hell did I kitten up to get rolled that badly” Instead they go “OMG YOUR BEING CARRIED BY AI PLAY A REAL BUILD” get there pride stuck up there backsides then keep making the same idiotic mistakes.

TLDR; Is turret engi strong atm? Yes…If your stupid enough to fight a point defense build on the point without even taking 5 seconds to soften it up. Is turret engi doing more than its supposed to? No. It does its job pretty kitten well. A little TOO well MAYBE. But thats more due to a lack of player learning abilities on there opponents fault than the build itself. Should Turret Engi be nerfed because there opponents aren’t bright enough to realize standing in fire BAD? Maybe. It might be better for the game. But only after there opponents admit they lost because they simply couldn’t be BOTHERED to figure it out.

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

The game should be balanced at high levels! Turret Engis are complete garbage at high levels! They are even garbage at mid level! If the game was balanced based on the whims of the average hotjoin player, then… well Vee Wee doesn’t even want to imagine that scenario! Vee Wee bets that Heartseeker would do no damage at all! Turret Engis are fine!

Edit: This is also why Vee Wee thinks Anet should consult top players of every class when making balance decisions! Valve often talks with the best Counter Strikes players on map decisions and gun changes and whatever! They also consult with the best Dota2 players in the world when it comes to hero balance! Anet should do the same! Developers are just developers! They are not the best players!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

No, they are not fine. A broken spec is still a broken spec. If it doesn’t impact top end play, then why should those players even care if it is nerfed? For everyone else, it is an OP spec that needs to be toned down.

Sagat.3285:

they cannot be critically hit or affected by conditions

Yeah since this game has 2 types of damage, condition and physical and turrets have advantages vs both…ok turret engis are so reterded (Or more likely those who play turret engi are so reterded…) thay can’t do pretty much kitten in high level tpvp but still someone can’t just win just putting kitten on the ground and then dodging and running in circles until the other one is gone..ok making this game casual (Nab) friendly but this is just way too much..

style.6173:

No, they are not fine. A broken spec is still a broken spec. If it doesn’t impact top end play, then why should those players even care if it is nerfed? For everyone else, it is an OP spec that needs to be toned down.

The fact the build doesn’t work at high-level play means it’s not broken. The real problem is a lot of low-tier players, perhaps such as yourself, don’t know how to counter them.

I wouldn’t mind seeing AI builds entirely neutered in PvP just because they’re so cheesy, but there’s really no one but yourself to blame if you’re really struggling that much with any of the AI builds. None of them are viable in high-end play anymore.

style.6173:

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

The game should be balanced at high levels! Turret Engis are complete garbage at high levels! They are even garbage at mid level! If the game was balanced based on the whims of the average hotjoin player, then… well Vee Wee doesn’t even want to imagine that scenario! Vee Wee bets that Heartseeker would do no damage at all! Turret Engis are fine!

Edit: This is also why Vee Wee thinks Anet should consult top players of every class when making balance decisions! Valve often talks with the best Counter Strikes players on map decisions and gun changes and whatever! They also consult with the best Dota2 players in the world when it comes to hero balance! Anet should do the same! Developers are just developers! They are not the best players!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

No, they are not fine. A broken spec is still a broken spec. If it doesn’t impact top end play, then why should those players even care if it is nerfed? For everyone else, it is an OP spec that needs to be toned down.

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

A broken spec is Dhuumfire Necro when it first came out! That was just thuper OP! Especially if you played Engi like Vee Wee! It was thuper strong against everything! Unkillable! Unstoppable! Turret Engi is not broken! It’s a pretty bad build! Beating people in hotjoins does not a broken build make! Otherwise Vee Wee’s Gadget Engi Super Meta Battering Ram build is also a broken spec! Vee Wee’s Super Meta Condi Ele Four Signet build would also be a broken spec!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Lopez.7369:

style.6173:

No, they are not fine. A broken spec is still a broken spec. If it doesn’t impact top end play, then why should those players even care if it is nerfed? For everyone else, it is an OP spec that needs to be toned down.

The fact the build doesn’t work at high-level play means it’s not broken. The real problem is a lot of low-tier players, perhaps such as yourself, don’t know how to counter them.

I wouldn’t mind seeing AI builds entirely neutered in PvP just because they’re so cheesy, but there’s really no one but yourself to blame if you’re really struggling that much with any of the AI builds. None of them are viable in high-end play anymore.

Sigh For those of you who need multiple explanations, here it goes again.

The issue with the turret build is that it is OP against PUG teams. A PUG team consists of ALL hot join, ALL solo queue, and at least 50% of team queue. It needs to be fixed.

I understand that a lot of engineers are worried that they will need to actually play going forward, but it is for the best. Really.

style.6173:

Sigh For those of you who need multiple explanations, here it goes again.

The issue with the turret build is that it is OP against PUG teams. A PUG team consists of ALL hot join, ALL solo queue, and at least 50% of team queue. It needs to be fixed.

I understand that a lot of engineers are worried that they will need to actually play going forward, but it is for the best. Really.

I knew what you meant. I think turrets are fine in those situations. I deal with them just fine on my necromancer in solo queue, even though I can’t come close to killing the turrets.

I think the bigger problem is too many people insist on fighting right on points regardless of the circumstances. People need to learn to position themselves better. Just because it’s conquest doesn’t mean you have to stand on the point at all times.

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Turrets hit for 3-4k per attack! Crazy! Maybe you have some kind of super secret amaze turrets that we don’t have! In that case nerf Kibbles! For everyone else, turrets don’t hit hard at all! You don’t need 2 people to beat a turret Engineer! You don’t even need staff Eles! Vee Wee beats turret Engineers all the time! Vee Wee plays condi Engi!

Again my frands! Just because turret Engineers can, for some reason, win solo queues doesn’t mean it should be nerfed! Balance isn’t done based on the whims of low ranked players! Turret builds aren’t good! They have a buttload of weaknesses and have zero mobility! Bad! Very bad! A nerf to this useless build will just hurt real Engineers and their only viable elite!

Here’s some free advice, courtesy of Vee Wee! Don’t get hit by an overcharged Rocket Turret! Don’t get hit by an overcharged Thumper Turret! The Rocket Turret is pretty fragile and is basically a Turret Engi’s only source of damage! Kill it! You can circle a Rocket Turret and it will never hit you!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

The game should be balanced at high levels! Turret Engis are complete garbage at high levels! They are even garbage at mid level! If the game was balanced based on the whims of the average hotjoin player, then… well Vee Wee doesn’t even want to imagine that scenario! Vee Wee bets that Heartseeker would do no damage at all! Turret Engis are fine!

Edit: This is also why Vee Wee thinks Anet should consult top players of every class when making balance decisions! Valve often talks with the best Counter Strikes players on map decisions and gun changes and whatever! They also consult with the best Dota2 players in the world when it comes to hero balance! Anet should do the same! Developers are just developers! They are not the best players!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

thinking and posting like this is the reason why this game is so ugly and not fun at all

Really? Because that’s how virtually every competitive game, from Dota 2 to Halo, is balanced, and they all seem to be doing just fine.

Lopez.7369:

Really? Because that’s how virtually every competitive game, from Dota 2 to Halo, is balanced, and they all seem to be doing just fine.

ok in short just for you:

• GW2 is no kitten moba or egoshooter

its an mmorpg and an mmorpg is not about who has faster reactions and press the button faster it is bout micromanagment from spells and strategic thinking

there is a lot wrong with this game and one point is all this overloaded passiv procs and passiv ai.
But all this stupid passiv gameplay is only a primitive fix from arenanet for the fail designed combat and mechanics in this game.

• its way to fast
• animations only bring the info to the players
• everything to “flashy”
• no combatlog (will be fixed with patch)

this are reasons why pvp in this game dont work and lose palyers day per day
and only fix for arenanet is “spamming buttons” and “passiv play”

Well, that’s completely unrelated to what you replied to and what I commented on.

Lopez.7369:

Well, that’s completely unrelated to what you replied to and what I commented on.

no its not – thread is bout turretengis and why they are an problem

and ignoring the problem cause 100 players (your so called top-players^^) have no problem with this problem will not fix it

If good players are already able to counter it rather easily, where is the issue? I could understand if such a build was effective in tourneys as well, but it is easily crushed at competitive levels.
Asking for the game to be balanced over the needs of low skill level players is rather nonsensical. You could ask for nerfs for everything by following that pretense.

Manuhell.2759:

If good players are already able to counter it rather easily, where is the issue? I could understand if such a build was effective in tourneys as well, but it is easily crushed at competitive levels.
Asking for the game to be balanced over the needs of low skill level players is rather nonsensical. You could ask for nerfs for everything by following that pretense.

So we need to balace a multimillion dollar game around the 40 or so players who compete in the tournaments rather than the hundreds to play Tpvp or SoloQ? I am not sure I agree entirely with that logic.

This is really just a soloq thing, however it’s like a plague. Every match you’re guaranteed to have at least two engies, probably more. It’s more annoying than anything. I just can’t stand AI builds, and I think most people feel the same way. Took a screenshot of my last game for the lulz.

Turret engis are kitten annoying and can really destroy soloQ matches. They can bunker a point better than any other classes and require not much skill which is kinda sad. When it comes to teamfights they don’t contribute much to the fight except knocking some enemies around and give allies some boons. The turrets even die fast because of the aoe. They are bad in rotations because they are slow and useless offpoint. If you see a turret engi running around kill him offpoint. Usually they don’t want to “waste” their turrets offpoint.

My team faced a 2x hambow 2x turrets 1x guard team yesterday and we won twice against them because we were able to rotate faster. It was a very annoying match and i do not like the build at all but at a high level of play the build is useless.

Imo staff eles are more useful / more dangerous than turret engis but thats offtopic.

I honestly think that ArenaNet took a page from the Blizzard balance guide under the chapter of, “How to buff your least played class to the point everyone wants to play it”. Blizzard took this chapter with the Warlock class. For years it was the most underplayed class in World of Warcraft. Now, it is one of the most popular. It is also quite overpowered and even Blizzard admits this, but they do not plan to do anything about it until the release of the next expansion.

I wonder at what level ArenaNet will consider that there are enough people playing Engineer to nerf the profession back to a balanced level. Maybe when we start seeing tournament teams with four or five Engineers in them? We have already seen those with two. Maybe then? Until then, just bring some help when you go to fight an Engineer as ArenaNet obviously does not want anyone to be able to 1vs1 this profession with any ease.

Thanks.

Nobody likes AI.

Just because someone is new, doesn’t mean they should be effective at high-levels, just because a team is lacking power based cleave. This is the whole point in having a working MMR system, so less skilled players are matched with those of equal skill.

If you want something easy to run, look toward classes that are easy to start off on, such as Warrior or Guardian.

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Vee Wee can assure you that out of the thousands of Engineer players out there, there are literally 0 Engineers in the world that are effective high level turret Engineers!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Vee Wee can assure you that out of the thousands of Engineer players out there, there are literally 0 Engineers in the world that are effective high level turret Engineers!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Engi still faceroll though. Slap on celetial ammy and let your hamster run on the keyboard. My pet gerbil is an engi main and has a 62% win rate over 500 games

Manuhell.2759:

If good players are already able to counter it rather easily, where is the issue? I could understand if such a build was effective in tourneys as well, but it is easily crushed at competitive levels.
Asking for the game to be balanced over the needs of low skill level players is rather nonsensical. You could ask for nerfs for everything by following that pretense.

It’s a joke that a turret engi can hold a point against multiple zerkers classes in uncoordinated games. I hate to break it to you, but in a large chunk of games you’ll have at least one team not on TS. It gets even worse when you get paired with randoms.

My issue with turret engis isn’t WHAT the do but HOW they do it. It is demoralizing watching a player sit there and auto attack, never dodge and often times win a fight where his turrets are setup or be a MAJOR factor in that fight. It’s bad for the playerbase because it’s like a virus. The bads that get rekt by turrets will switch to turrets and realize that it’s way too OP for how easy it is and keep playing it.

The issue is skill vs reward. AI has repeatedly proven itself to remove the required input on part of the user. There should be major sacrifices in efficacy when you choose something that is easy to play. If I’m forced to hit 4x as many buttons twice as fast to play a spec, why is a spec that hardly requires a pulse to play anywhere near effective as what turret engis are?

Cam Ron.4170:

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Vee Wee can assure you that out of the thousands of Engineer players out there, there are literally 0 Engineers in the world that are effective high level turret Engineers!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Engi still faceroll though. Slap on celetial ammy and let your hamster run on the keyboard. My pet gerbil is an engi main and has a 62% win rate over 500 games

Lol ^^

Agreed with Ostrich.

It’s a little hyperbolic, but think of it this way: imagine a trait like this one “If the enemy team doesn’t have a thief, you automatically win the match”. Now you can say “eh, good teams counter it easily by bringing a thief”. However, every pug team without it will lose the game because of something like that.
Balancing should not ONLY consider “super high tier play”.
Because if a turret engi decides to camp home all the match, there is close to nothing that can be done in the" standard flow" of a soloq match.
It’s the same as old minion necro, but it’s even worse because of the turrets being strong even against crit based attacks and providing enough cc to decap most specs, should they decide to assault far.
Considering the current state of communication options during a soloq match, this spec requires an incredibly high effort in order to be countered, especially compared to the difficulty of playing it.

All previously played AI specs have been toned down (phantasm mesmer, spirit Ranger, mm necro), and are now “balanced”: still incredibly easy to play, but now it takes one decent player to completely counter them even in a 1v1 fight.

The thing is, turret engineers are ONLY good at defending a point. The entire point of a bunker build is to win most, if not all, of their 1v1 fights while defending the node and abusing the pickles out of the fact the enemy has to fight them on their terms. Bunkers are suppose to be able to hold out forever against a 2v1 and possibly even pull a win if the other players were bad. It’s the entire role.

Stop trying to 1v1 the turret engineer in range of the turrets. It’s not like you don’t have options. Why not get a max range weapon and snipe the engineer to death? Why not bring a couple others and just focus bomb the engineer? A staff ele and a cleave warrior can likely clear those turrets without too much trouble. Or just kill the engineer while in transition between points where it is borderline defenseless.

If a build isn’t a problem at high level play then it isn’t a problem. It’s just a lack of skill on part of those losing to it constantly. The same advice for handling thieves applies here: Roll a turret engineer and learn the build and figure out how to hard counter it.

If they do nerf turret engineers, it should be by adding another game mode. Turrets are only strong within the context of a conquest game where players are forced to fight them near their turrets. Play a capture the flag game where mobility trumps bunkering and suddenly they aren’t nearly as common.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Manuhell.2759:

If good players are already able to counter it rather easily, where is the issue? I could understand if such a build was effective in tourneys as well, but it is easily crushed at competitive levels.
Asking for the game to be balanced over the needs of low skill level players is rather nonsensical. You could ask for nerfs for everything by following that pretense.

It’s a joke that a turret engi can hold a point against multiple zerkers classes in uncoordinated games. I hate to break it to you, but in a large chunk of games you’ll have at least one team not on TS. It gets even worse when you get paired with randoms.

My issue with turret engis isn’t WHAT the do but HOW they do it. It is demoralizing watching a player sit there and auto attack, never dodge and often times win a fight where his turrets are setup or be a MAJOR factor in that fight. It’s bad for the playerbase because it’s like a virus. The bads that get rekt by turrets will switch to turrets and realize that it’s way too OP for how easy it is and keep playing it.

The issue is skill vs reward. AI has repeatedly proven itself to remove the required input on part of the user. There should be major sacrifices in efficacy when you choose something that is easy to play. If I’m forced to hit 4x as many buttons twice as fast to play a spec, why is a spec that hardly requires a pulse to play anywhere near effective as what turret engis are?

Exactly.

I honestly have no idea why they insist on keeping AI builds even semi-viable in PvP. They should be nerfed to uselessness.

Unfortunately, it seems like they’re moving in the exact opposite direction. See: buffs to turrets and spirit weapons tomorrow.

Target of gaming changes according to money.
Now the majority of customers with money are children, not mature people, therefore if children need AI builds in order to have fun and help them being competitive, then that is what they will get. When children are happy, they will play more and buy finishers and skins to feel special and the best in PvP.

Turret eng makes my kit eng sad. They are an insult to the profession. It in no way teaches some one how to play better multi kit engineer builds. Please nerf them despite them not being OP just so I can roll my eyes and facepalm less when I see them every day. Thanks.

Ostricheggs.3742:

It’s a joke that a turret engi can hold a point against multiple zerkers classes in uncoordinated games. I hate to break it to you, but in a large chunk of games you’ll have at least one team not on TS. It gets even worse when you get paired with randoms.

My issue with turret engis isn’t WHAT the do but HOW they do it. It is demoralizing watching a player sit there and auto attack, never dodge and often times win a fight where his turrets are setup or be a MAJOR factor in that fight. It’s bad for the playerbase because it’s like a virus. The bads that get rekt by turrets will switch to turrets and realize that it’s way too OP for how easy it is and keep playing it.

Of course turrets are good at holding points. They are designed upon it, and it is all they’re balanced for (and the reason why they’re mostly useless in other modes). That, and a ton of traits that are spent upon them (even too many, imho, and i think adding those grandmasters’ ones wasn’t a good idea balance wise).
They’re specialized tools that are good in doing a single thing, and that is holding points. Pile up many traits, and they end up being great at that.
As far as game mechanics and balance go, there is nothing wrong about it.
If something were to change, then they should be made less specialized – thus less strong at holding points, but able to do other things as well – and some traits should be removed, so that you can’t pile up all those effects. But that’s all.

Also, you can’t balance skills over the incompetence of bad players. No one would whine about endure pain blocking a burst, but if people rush blindly on points where there are turrets, then it is suddenly a problem?
No, if they do that, they deserve to be butchered. And learn from it.

Ostricheggs.3742:

The issue is skill vs reward. AI has repeatedly proven itself to remove the required input on part of the user. There should be major sacrifices in efficacy when you choose something that is easy to play. If I’m forced to hit 4x as many buttons twice as fast to play a spec, why is a spec that hardly requires a pulse to play anywhere near effective as what turret engis are?

Because turrets would be useless otherwise, and everyone would switch to 4-kit engineers – that by all accounts, according to your point of view, should be the strongest spec in the game. Those, or elementalists’ conjurers. And warriors would end up being, like, bottom tiers. Unlike now.

And it isn’t like turrets aren’t already less efficient than other specs – as we already said before, they aren’t used in actual tourneys.
I would also add that if we must talk about rewarding skill…then we should redesign all the classes, not just turrets. But i admit i would laugh quite a bit, if that happens. Cause there would be a lot of tears from some popular classes.

Manuhell.2759:

Ostricheggs.3742:

It’s a joke that a turret engi can hold a point against multiple zerkers classes in uncoordinated games. I hate to break it to you, but in a large chunk of games you’ll have at least one team not on TS. It gets even worse when you get paired with randoms.

My issue with turret engis isn’t WHAT the do but HOW they do it. It is demoralizing watching a player sit there and auto attack, never dodge and often times win a fight where his turrets are setup or be a MAJOR factor in that fight. It’s bad for the playerbase because it’s like a virus. The bads that get rekt by turrets will switch to turrets and realize that it’s way too OP for how easy it is and keep playing it.

Of course turrets are good at holding points. They are designed upon it, and it is all they’re balanced for (and the reason why they’re mostly useless in other modes). That, and a ton of traits that are spent upon them (even too many, imho, and i think adding those grandmasters’ ones wasn’t a good idea balance wise).
They’re specialized tools that are good in doing a single thing, and that is holding points. Pile up many traits, and they end up being great at that.
As far as game mechanics and balance go, there is nothing wrong about it.
If something were to change, then they should be made less specialized – thus less strong at holding points, but able to do other things as well – and some traits should be removed, so that you can’t pile up all those effects. But that’s all.

Also, you can’t balance skills over the incompetence of bad players. No one would whine about endure pain blocking a burst, but if people rush blindly on points where there are turrets, then it is suddenly a problem?
No, if they do that, they deserve to be butchered. And learn from it.

Ostricheggs.3742:

The issue is skill vs reward. AI has repeatedly proven itself to remove the required input on part of the user. There should be major sacrifices in efficacy when you choose something that is easy to play. If I’m forced to hit 4x as many buttons twice as fast to play a spec, why is a spec that hardly requires a pulse to play anywhere near effective as what turret engis are?

Because turrets would be useless otherwise, and everyone would switch to 4-kit engineers – that by all accounts, according to your point of view, should be the strongest spec in the game. Those, or elementalists’ conjurers. And warriors would end up being, like, bottom tiers. Unlike now.

And it isn’t like turrets aren’t already less efficient than other specs – as we already said before, they aren’t used in actual tourneys.
I would also add that if we must talk about rewarding skill…then we should redesign all the classes, not just turrets. But i admit i would laugh quite a bit, if that happens. Cause there would be a lot of tears from some popular classes.

Turrets shouldn’t be good in PvP PERIOD.
Same for every AI based build.
It’s just stupid. Trying to justify the turrets strength’s because “they are only good at this” is simply wrong.
You like AI builds? Make them effective in PvE, let the mobs take care of them.

IMHO, AI builds in PvP should be the least effective thing EVER. Even a rampager engi with rifle, goggles, battering ram and elixir R should be more effective than that.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Manuhell.2759:

If good players are already able to counter it rather easily, where is the issue? I could understand if such a build was effective in tourneys as well, but it is easily crushed at competitive levels.
Asking for the game to be balanced over the needs of low skill level players is rather nonsensical. You could ask for nerfs for everything by following that pretense.

It’s a joke that a turret engi can hold a point against multiple zerkers classes in uncoordinated games. I hate to break it to you, but in a large chunk of games you’ll have at least one team not on TS. It gets even worse when you get paired with randoms.

My issue with turret engis isn’t WHAT the do but HOW they do it. It is demoralizing watching a player sit there and auto attack, never dodge and often times win a fight where his turrets are setup or be a MAJOR factor in that fight. It’s bad for the playerbase because it’s like a virus. The bads that get rekt by turrets will switch to turrets and realize that it’s way too OP for how easy it is and keep playing it.

The issue is skill vs reward. AI has repeatedly proven itself to remove the required input on part of the user. There should be major sacrifices in efficacy when you choose something that is easy to play. If I’m forced to hit 4x as many buttons twice as fast to play a spec, why is a spec that hardly requires a pulse to play anywhere near effective as what turret engis are?

This ^^.

Would love to hear from ANET.

So you’re basically asking to delete turrets from the game, seeing as they would be useless in every game mode. Apart from the healing one, but no one uses it as a turret anyway.
Want to do it? Fine. As long as you make 4 kits engineers absurdely overpowered (all those active skills must be rewarded, after all) and remove every passive trait, skill and signet-like effect from the other classes as well.
Some classes will be reduced to crap, but heh…it’s their fault.

I think the real solution is the new trait to add wheels to turrets. They will follow the engi like Ranger spirits.

The trait shall be called………….Skatemode.

Manuhell.2759:

Ostricheggs.3742:

It’s a joke that a turret engi can hold a point against multiple zerkers classes in uncoordinated games. I hate to break it to you, but in a large chunk of games you’ll have at least one team not on TS. It gets even worse when you get paired with randoms.

My issue with turret engis isn’t WHAT the do but HOW they do it. It is demoralizing watching a player sit there and auto attack, never dodge and often times win a fight where his turrets are setup or be a MAJOR factor in that fight. It’s bad for the playerbase because it’s like a virus. The bads that get rekt by turrets will switch to turrets and realize that it’s way too OP for how easy it is and keep playing it.

Of course turrets are good at holding points. They are designed upon it, and it is all they’re balanced for (and the reason why they’re mostly useless in other modes). That, and a ton of traits that are spent upon them (even too many, imho, and i think adding those grandmasters’ ones wasn’t a good idea balance wise).
They’re specialized tools that are good in doing a single thing, and that is holding points. Pile up many traits, and they end up being great at that.
As far as game mechanics and balance go, there is nothing wrong about it.
If something were to change, then they should be made less specialized – thus less strong at holding points, but able to do other things as well – and some traits should be removed, so that you can’t pile up all those effects. But that’s all.

Also, you can’t balance skills over the incompetence of bad players. No one would whine about endure pain blocking a burst, but if people rush blindly on points where there are turrets, then it is suddenly a problem?
No, if they do that, they deserve to be butchered. And learn from it.

Ostricheggs.3742:

The issue is skill vs reward. AI has repeatedly proven itself to remove the required input on part of the user. There should be major sacrifices in efficacy when you choose something that is easy to play. If I’m forced to hit 4x as many buttons twice as fast to play a spec, why is a spec that hardly requires a pulse to play anywhere near effective as what turret engis are?

Because turrets would be useless otherwise, and everyone would switch to 4-kit engineers – that by all accounts, according to your point of view, should be the strongest spec in the game. Those, or elementalists’ conjurers. And warriors would end up being, like, bottom tiers. Unlike now.

And it isn’t like turrets aren’t already less efficient than other specs – as we already said before, they aren’t used in actual tourneys.
I would also add that if we must talk about rewarding skill…then we should redesign all the classes, not just turrets. But i admit i would laugh quite a bit, if that happens. Cause there would be a lot of tears from some popular classes.

I dont have a large problem with low skill specs to a point. Turret engis fall well below that point.

Hambows require more active play and thought than turret engis. Hell, even spirit rangers require more skill than turret engis, and that’s sad.

Reminding us of the number of traits that you dedicate to your AI is honestly pointless. Yes, we know you sacrifice a LOT to play turrets. But that doesn’t mean you should be able to auto-attack people to death in uncoordinated games.

If you honestly believe that the other players deserve to die to that spec then I can’t really begin to get my argument across. You basically play a rifle engi and hit your utilities once in a while. Every other player in the game is playing at a higher level than you.

You say that we shouldn’t balance around specs that are crappy in high end play. What about the higher end play of every other player in the game except for the turret engi?

GOSU.9574:

I think the real solution is the new trait to add wheels to turrets. They will follow the engi like Ranger spirits.

The trait shall be called………….Skatemode.

Thanks to Grouch for the leaked pic. Direct from alpha!

New GM trait: Ridin’ Spinnaz’

haha ostrich brought back your riddin spinnaz :P

Also scary day when turrets can move…..

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Turrets hit for 3-4k per attack! Crazy! Maybe you have some kind of super secret amaze turrets that we don’t have! In that case nerf Kibbles! For everyone else, turrets don’t hit hard at all! You don’t need 2 people to beat a turret Engineer! You don’t even need staff Eles! Vee Wee beats turret Engineers all the time! Vee Wee plays condi Engi!

Again my frands! Just because turret Engineers can, for some reason, win solo queues doesn’t mean it should be nerfed! Balance isn’t done based on the whims of low ranked players! Turret builds aren’t good! They have a buttload of weaknesses and have zero mobility! Bad! Very bad! A nerf to this useless build will just hurt real Engineers and their only viable elite!

Here’s some free advice, courtesy of Vee Wee! Don’t get hit by an overcharged Rocket Turret! Don’t get hit by an overcharged Thumper Turret! The Rocket Turret is pretty fragile and is basically a Turret Engi’s only source of damage! Kill it! You can circle a Rocket Turret and it will never hit you!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I can’t agree with this.

Yes, turret build is not effective in highest level sPvP. But does that mean the build needs to be buffed according to your logic that everything should be balanced at highest level?

I think the answer is No. Builds should really be balanced around the effort it takes to play. For example, PU mesmer is easy to play but the reward is in return very low. You can’t hold a point. You can harass a point but it will take you more than 60s to actually kill someone.

In contrary, turret eng. can actually hold a point against a majority of other players 1v1 by putting in very little effort. The reward is already too high for this particular build.