Fixing S7 Ranked [with data charts]

Fixing S7 Ranked [with data charts]

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

Ok. I think Anet sees our complaints about Ranked matchmaking, but don’t understand without visual cues. Now I will help Anet understand where Ranked PvP is broken, and how to fix it. Data charts below show current season matchmaking that Anet thinks is ok, and how it should be next season.

One reason current season is bad is because Anet allows low rank players to play with too high rank. This handicaps high rank players on the same team. Ranked PvP is a competition, and allowing low skilled players on the same team as higher means it’s no longer a competition for one team. It’s a free win for the other. This is not fun.

Next season Ranked can be fixed by blocking Silver players from being matched with Gold+ league until they gain enough MMR to be tier 1 Gold. Bronze and Silver players will play Ranked with each other. Then Gold, Platinum, and Legend will be group in their own MMR spread.

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Posted by: Varron.4291

Varron.4291

Nice! A very simple visualization but that easily conveys the suggestion.

I like this, and would support this idea.

One concern is how would placements affect this? Especially considering how mmr is only soft-reset between season (ex: I placed 1300 s5, but placed 1600 s6). Will placement players have no restrictions?

IMO I’d prefer gold players not being in plat games. So I’d prefer Leg/plat as one bracket, with gold/silver/bronze in the other bracket. But leg/plat bracket probably doesn’t have that many players. Perhaps make it gold 2-ish and above? Idk.

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Posted by: Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

but legend also kittens on gold. Honestly even platinum can be argued to kitten on gold. the realistic gold tier 3 could be matched with platinum tier 1, maby platinum tier2 but that is a bit of a stretch..

The thing is a low gold division player is way different then somebody who is gold tier 3.

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Posted by: Varron.4291

Varron.4291

Perhaps we could look on it as a tier spread, instead? So Gold 3 can verse people +/-1 tier (Ex: Gold 3 can verse gold 2, 3, plat 1)?

+/-2 after a long queue time with no possible matches (ex: 5-10 mins), etc?

Cause the difference between a gold 3 and a gold 1 versing a plat is extremely noticeable, lol.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

The matchmaker does this because the population is too kitten low, for various reasons.

Until Anet does something that can get a much larger population back to PvP, then matchmaking will always have problems like this.

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Posted by: Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318

Perhaps we could look on it as a tier spread, instead? So Gold 3 can verse people +/-1 tier (Ex: Gold 3 can verse gold 2, 3, plat 1)?

+/-2 after a long queue time with no possible matches (ex: 5-10 mins), etc?

Cause the difference between a gold 3 and a gold 1 versing a plat is extremely noticeable, lol.

I’d argue that the +1—1 only applies with higher divisions.

Bronze tier to silver tier u can allow for a wider spread as it is really the same kind of players. It’s not as complicated as gold division, with gold bassically bieng in the same boat as ruby from previous seasons where u had an incredibly wide spread of several skill levels..

silver tier 3( maby) is where u will see ok these players are not newbies anymore. I’d say from silver tier 3 maby gold tier 1 where the +1 -1 spread should begin in

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Posted by: Varron.4291

Varron.4291

Referencing a thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Gold-T1-T2-vs-Legendary/first#post6564099

This shouldn’t happen next season. There should be a hard limit on matchmaking where if you are legendary, you can only verse people who are plat 1 as a minimum.

Honestly, throwing a gold 1/gold 2 against the #1 player, who is also duo-queueing, should never happen. If it ever did, why is it remotely fair for the gold players to lose TWELVE rating? They should’ve lost 0, or only 1 point due to the difference in skill rating.

Tl;dr – The skill difference between a legend and a gold player is too big to warrant a game ever having those two skill levels together. IMO the brackets should go as follows, hypothetically:

Legendary <→ Plat 1 | Plat 1 <→ Gold 1 | Silver 3 <→ Bronze 1

While also allowing negligible differences in mmr. For example: “Fake Bob” is 1649, which is gold 3 but only 1 point away from being plat 1. This difference is negligible, and he may verse legendary& plat players due to being close enough to the mmr threshold of being considered a plat 1 player.

Just some thoughts X D

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Posted by: Nickzor.2453

Nickzor.2453

this was closer to the original system it was changed because people with high ranks often had to wait an hour + to get a game off peak hours. It created a system where you earned legend then instantly left to unranked.

So it comes down to either having somewhat even matches and wait 6 years or have 2ish minute queues and don’t wait.

As a legend player almost every season I can assure hour wait times were not abnormal…. This system is a direct result of the current player pool.

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

The matchmaker does this because the population is too kitten low, for various reasons.

Until Anet does something that can get a much larger population back to PvP, then matchmaking will always have problems like this.

Anet’s president is too focus on PvE and that’s what he’s good at. He doesn’t have enough experience in PvP games to get that GW2 Ranked needs major changes. But like you said, there isn’t a lot of players because people keep leaving.

Ranked PvP is a snowball going downhill. Problems from early seasons made people not happy, so they leave. That lead to new problems with less players. The problem is still bad because MMR isn’t hard reset. Then you have people who use alt account to help their main. Not sure how you prevent that.

It’s similar to when new Living Story comes out with bugs. Anet fixes the bugs, then 10 more show up that break something. It’s one thing that leads to another. I’m scared that PvP will end up just being a side project.

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Posted by: Lord Hammer Hand.4815

Lord Hammer Hand.4815

we had this MM in place during season 2 and 3. and the MMR HELL believers called it STACKING. because they get place w/ other newbies in the same team and start having lose streak. (unfair for them not to get carried by good players i guess) some say they just wanna win to feel good. (wtf) but once again anet listen to the cries. its the same people who will argue that division doesnt mean anything yet they cry out not getting out of bronze or silver.

Pacific Islander Legion [NoyP]
Black Gate
Ruthless Legend

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Posted by: Thane.9421

Thane.9421

The season where we had something like this implemented were by far the most enjoyable seasons imo. Nothing makes you want to quit pvp like losing matches where you’re performing but pugs you have no control over playing with throw.

Also, a related point: the idea that good players have to “carry” the bad ones is pretty laughable. Watch streams of some of the best players in the game, and you’ll see them lose matches because of teammates kitten ing. With a good duo, it’s better, but mostly only if at least one of the duo is playing on a low MMR alt account. Queue both on main account, and if you are Gold T3 or higher, you are going to have clueless teammates who will throw.

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Posted by: megilandil.7506

megilandil.7506

The matchmaker does this because the population is too kitten low, for various reasons.

Until Anet does something that can get a much larger population back to PvP, then matchmaking will always have problems like this.

Anet’s president is too focus on PvE and that’s what he’s good at. He doesn’t have enough experience in PvP games to get that GW2 Ranked needs major changes. But like you said, there isn’t a lot of players because people keep leaving.

Ranked PvP is a snowball going downhill. Problems from early seasons made people not happy, so they leave. That lead to new problems with less players. The problem is still bad because MMR isn’t hard reset. Then you have people who use alt account to help their main. Not sure how you prevent that.

It’s similar to when new Living Story comes out with bugs. Anet fixes the bugs, then 10 more show up that break something. It’s one thing that leads to another. I’m scared that PvP will end up just being a side project.

a hard mmr reset will be the worths thing they can do, weeks and weeks of bad RNG games cuz top ones and deep bronze ones will start at the same point and every game untill the mmr sets up another time will be pure random

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Posted by: megilandil.7506

megilandil.7506

we had this MM in place during season 2 and 3. and the MMR HELL believers called it STACKING. because they get place w/ other newbies in the same team and start having lose streak. (unfair for them not to get carried by good players i guess) some say they just wanna win to feel good. (wtf) but once again anet listen to the cries. its the same people who will argue that division doesnt mean anything yet they cry out not getting out of bronze or silver.

Anet recognized it, system had the intended tendence to pick the 5 best and put in the same team and the five worse in the other during those seasons, and this is a bad system creating preset winer matches, teams have to be or balanced or pure rng shufled, as said mm have to be or pure random or with a balancing intentions, others mm behaivours are crappy

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Posted by: Marxx.5021

Marxx.5021

I think Anet understands very well in which state PvP is. It just doesn’t matter. The focus is on PvE (LS, raids, addon). The current state just reflects the lack of commitment towards PvP. The real issue is with the companies vision for PvP. It seems there is none. This cannot be addressed on a technical level.

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Posted by: kdaddy.5431

kdaddy.5431

I agree with alot of what you say but i like to add something.

S1- S4 we had more levels. Bronze-Emerald- Sapphire- Ruby-Diamond-Legendary

S5-6 We had bronze- silver- gold- plat- legendary

They cut out a whole division. As someone who was in the gold3-plat 2 range i can tell you right now i did not belong in some of the games where the other team had 2 ESL players and mine had 1 and it looked as if i needed to be the other hard carry.

Bronze and silver players should only play each other, gold and X division should only play each other and the Semi pro and pro players should be playing each other in the plat and elite divisions.

Why will this not work though? Simply put no one played this season.

As someone said in a earlier comment, the skill level/ understand from Gold 1 to gold 3 is too high. And the same goes for plat 1 to legendary players.

When you can legitimately say that of the best 250 players on the ranked Leader Board, only 50 of them can play with each other and the next 100 can play with each other in S5.

When S6 rolls around and there is legit gold 3 players in the top 150-250 range. That is a huge drop off in ability from the community.

I honestly would not be surprised if Anet just didnt a S7.

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Posted by: sephiroth.4217

sephiroth.4217

Im a gold player who left the game due to being matched with top leaderboard players while also having bronzes on the same team.

If season 7 matchmaking gets fixed, even just slightly by whats suggested in this post, I would return to the game to give it another crack.

Im not pro, im not bad, thats the sorta people I want to be matched against.

I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

PvP needs new team I think. No one should think it’s fun or ok for someone in Silver to face the top players of a competitive ladder randomly. It invites people to leave.

I just looked at the last few pages in the PvP forum. It looks like Anet is more focused on balancing sigils. I don’t think that will save this game mode.

(edited by Natto.5819)

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Posted by: Vicariuz.1605

Vicariuz.1605

Ok. I think Anet sees our complaints about Ranked matchmaking, but don’t understand without visual cues. Now I will help Anet understand where Ranked PvP is broken, and how to fix it. Data charts below show current season matchmaking that Anet thinks is ok, and how it should be next season.

One reason current season is bad is because Anet allows low rank players to play with too high rank. This handicaps high rank players on the same team. Ranked PvP is a competition, and allowing low skilled players on the same team as higher means it’s no longer a competition for one team. It’s a free win for the other. This is not fun.

Next season Ranked can be fixed by blocking Silver players from being matched with Gold+ league until they gain enough MMR to be tier 1 Gold. Bronze and Silver players will play Ranked with each other. Then Gold, Platinum, and Legend will be group in their own MMR spread.

This has the right idea, but would still never work, because the rating disparity is still way too high. No person on the team should be more than 200 rating from another. Equally the other team as well, should not have a player more than 200 rating difference than the each other, or the enemy team. The difference between a legend 1 player and a plat 1 player, is visible; allowing a gold 1 player is essentially no different than the current system. Too much value is given to the gold division, people believe this to be “The average player” but that isn’t actually true, and even if it were, an “average” GW2 player is not going to be able to defend themselves against some one in the top division of the game mode, let alone be on the offensive, they simply do not have the mechanical skill or game awareness to do so.

Now the reason why this isn’t what Anet is doing? Because queue times would be 20 min+, stemming from them having taken a hands off approach to the game mode. I’m willing to bet, that the majority of the current players will not be accepting to those kind of queue times, because the majority of current players are casual, and are ENCOURAGED to be so. You have to realize that casual =/= bad, it means not concerned or relaxed. Because people are casual (they have no reason not to be) the quality goes down. The attention to detail is just simply not there.

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

Anet needs to do a 180 and force casuals out of Ranked PvP. The terms “Casual” and “Competitive” are opposites.

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

Anet needs to do a 180 and force casuals out of Ranked PvP. The terms “Casual” and “Competitive” are opposites.

That’s literally in every game… Your LoL user base wouldn’t the Twitch King in terms of viewership if it wasn’y for casuals. That games Esports wouldn’t be a thing without casuals…

I understand why you’re being so dramatic but let’s not put a torch to the game that’s already losing players.

aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld

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Posted by: Najten.2418

Najten.2418

Perhaps we could look on it as a tier spread, instead? So Gold 3 can verse people +/-1 tier (Ex: Gold 3 can verse gold 2, 3, plat 1)?

+/-2 after a long queue time with no possible matches (ex: 5-10 mins), etc?

Cause the difference between a gold 3 and a gold 1 versing a plat is extremely noticeable, lol.

This would be nice yes. It would also be nice to prevent people that are extremely far apart in rating from duo-queuing.

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

Well i only see one easy solution for many problems. Per class MMR (thus locking class) and a maximum MMR spread in a team like 200-300.
Unfortunately with a low population this might lead to extream Q times. A workaround might be that after each 2 min Q the maximum MMR diffrence moves up for a player. So the longer you wait the larger the diffrence. So breaking Q can reset this giving the player a choice.

(edited by Wolfric.9380)

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Posted by: HeadCrowned.6834

HeadCrowned.6834

Gold is still a whole different world than plat/legendary.

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

Anet needs to do a 180 and force casuals out of Ranked PvP. The terms “Casual” and “Competitive” are opposites.

That’s literally in every game… Your LoL user base wouldn’t the Twitch King in terms of viewership if it wasn’y for casuals. That games Esports wouldn’t be a thing without casuals…

I understand why you’re being so dramatic but let’s not put a torch to the game that’s already losing players.

I remember that you’re one of the better players in PvP. But even you can’t carry bad players 100% of time. Wouldn’t your ranking be better off if casual players weren’t on your team randomly?

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Posted by: Vicariuz.1605

Vicariuz.1605

Anet needs to do a 180 and force casuals out of Ranked PvP. The terms “Casual” and “Competitive” are opposites.

That’s literally in every game… Your LoL user base wouldn’t the Twitch King in terms of viewership if it wasn’y for casuals. That games Esports wouldn’t be a thing without casuals…

I understand why you’re being so dramatic but let’s not put a torch to the game that’s already losing players.

I remember that you’re one of the better players in PvP. But even you can’t carry bad players 100% of time. Wouldn’t your ranking be better off if casual players weren’t on your team randomly?

100% True, mathematically speaking yes he would have less losses if he played more games with more dedicated players, but it’s not random, it’s designed this way. 1 change that needs to be made is the range of rating allowed per team. It’s currently seemingly infinite, meaning there is always a chance to have a bronze player in your team regardless how high you climb. That’s a bad system. People do not play games where that is to be expected every time you queue. The 2nd change is how rating gain and loss works, I’ll leave an example: http://puu.sh/vDrr8/dec5ed3f64.jpg This is a dota player win/loss, and his rating gain and loss, compare this to ours and it becomes very very very clear, there is a problem.

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

I thought that the higher you climb, matchmaking will randomly assign much lower rated players with you, because balance?

I was tier 3 Gold, and I face Kratos. He is one of the best in PvP, so I was ok with loss to him. But if I were Bronze, fighting Kratos is laughable. Like spitting into the wind.

(edited by Natto.5819)

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Posted by: Ithilwen.1529

Ithilwen.1529

The matchmaker does this because the population is too kitten low, for various reasons.

Until Anet does something that can get a much larger population back to PvP, then matchmaking will always have problems like this.

You hit the nail square on the head. Good one.

Mesmerising Girl

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Things i wish for s7:
- MM should get 10 players of similar rating (even if they would have to wait longer) and then spread them evenly across the teams (if possible). If MM can’t find teammates in the certain range (e.g. only 1 legend queuing and couple silvers) then sry bro, go queue during prime time and not at 5am.
- rank gain/loss should be based on avg team MMR vs avg enemy team MMR
- to prevent abuse of the above points, player cannot duoq with someone way below their rating (e.g. legend with gold).

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Reaper Alim.4176

Reaper Alim.4176

Things i wish for s7:
- MM should get 10 players of similar rating (even if they would have to wait longer) and then spread them evenly across the teams (if possible). If MM can’t find teammates in the certain range (e.g. only 1 legend queuing and couple silvers) then sry bro, go queue during prime time and not at 5am.
- rank gain/loss should be based on avg team MMR vs avg enemy team MMR
- to prevent abuse of the above points, player cannot duoq with someone way below their rating (e.g. legend with gold).

This is a interesting proposal.

I maybe a troll with class.
But at least I admit it!
PoF guys get ready for PvE joys

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Posted by: Phantom.5389

Phantom.5389

The matchmaker does this because the population is too kitten low, for various reasons.

Until Anet does something that can get a much larger population back to PvP, then matchmaking will always have problems like this.

You hit the nail square on the head. Good one.

Pretty much. The Elite specialization power creep cough cough I mean balance of this game simply killed it. Everyone runs the same exact build. I once used to have fun fighting folks I did not know what they would run. Each encounter was a surprise, yet it was fun (even if some say it was not as balanced as what we have now). Each fights would get you on your toes. Counting dodges and stability uses were much more important than what it is nowadays. Back then if you were caught pants down, sorry to tell you this but you were fu**ed for the most part. Nowadays you got more passives, more get away card than ever before.

This PvP game need a reality check first. Fun is primordial if you ask me. Anet need to bring back that thrill of the fight instead of what we have now. Match making being crap is simply one of the effect of this power creep that has been lurking around since quite some time (and made many leave). If you think curing the symptoms will cure the cancer…If the only balance change in the near future is amulet swaping… for Saint Nicholas sake… count me out of the next season also.

*P.S. But I do agree that a change in the matchmaking is a good start. Better somethign than nothing…

(edited by Phantom.5389)

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Posted by: Jourdelune.7456

Jourdelune.7456

Things i wish for s7:
- MM should get 10 players of similar rating (even if they would have to wait longer) and then spread them evenly across the teams (if possible). If MM can’t find teammates in the certain range (e.g. only 1 legend queuing and couple silvers) then sry bro, go queue during prime time and not at 5am.
- rank gain/loss should be based on avg team MMR vs avg enemy team MMR
- to prevent abuse of the above points, player cannot duoq with someone way below their rating (e.g. legend with gold).

Dal Aï Lhama (Tempest), Dal Lahu Akbar (DH), Lord Dhal of Dharma (Scrapper) 12k+ spvp games.
Former Team Captain of ggwp (ESL weekly), GLHF (AG), MIST[CORE] spvp alliance guild.
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