Fixing the Bunker problem at its source

Fixing the Bunker problem at its source

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Posted by: Shadowflare.2759

Shadowflare.2759

For anyone who plays tpvp extensively, it’s probably obvious that the current meta revolves around bunkers, and they’re almost mandatory to win games. Of course there are factors such as group communication and player skill, but bunker builds are without a doubt one of the most effective builds for the current pvp system. If you’ve ever tried to fight a guardian bunker who’s supported by an elementalist bunker, you’ll know what I mean.

Why is this a problem? Simple. This means there is little to no variety in tpvp matches, because team composition revolving bunkers are the most effective, and there is no need for other choices, it also means a coordinated team with bunkers will almost certainly destroy a coordinated team without bunkers. I, for one, am not interesting in this kind of bland gameplay in esports.

The obvious solution would be to nerf bunkers into the ground. But it’s not a very good solution. While admittedly some bunker builds are a bit over the top, they’re not absolutely overpowered. Nerfing them would also affect Spvp, which we want to avoid as there is a whole different set of dynamics in Spvp.

What makes bunkers so strong right now, is due to a slight exploit of the game mechanic that no one can capture a point while an enemy is sitting on it. This is not an illegal exploit obviously, but it does mean that bunkers don’t actually have to do anything but staying alive on the point. Bunkers are kind of a separate thing from the team. Their job is to stay alive as long as possible, not so much to help other members of their team.

So let’s fix how the capturing system works. I recommend bringing back the same system used in alliance battles in Guild Wars 1.

For those who don’t know, this is how it worked:

-One person standing on a point would give one tick of capture to their team.
-Two people would give 2 ticks, and so on up to a maximum of 4 players giving 4 ticks.
-When there are players from both teams on the point, you subtract the ticks coming from both sides. So a 2 v 1 situation would give 1 tick of capture to the team outnumbering the other.

What does this mean? It means that the defending player will be holding the point from capture vs one other player. However, if he wants to hold that point when outnumbered, they HAVE to get help from allies ( as opposed to the current system that you’ll only need allies when you’ve exhausted all your survival tricks. )

But that also means that the other team is being outnumbered somewhere else and possibly losing their point as well. So it evens out. Instead of “send 3 bunkers out to hold 2 or more points, and then roam to each point when one is under attack”, now teams have to actually move around a lot more.

Obviously this brings some issues to the surface as well; specifically the mesmer portal, cuz that’ll probably be way more OP with the amount of mobility it gives an entire team. But let’s face it, we all knew mesmer portal needs a rework.

For Spvp, Anet will also have to decide what happens when you have teams of more than 4 people on a point. There are 2 ways this can happen
1) Subtract the players as normal; so an 8 v 4 would give 4 ticks.
2)Make 4 players and 4 ticks the absolute max. So 8 v 4 means neither team is capping.
At first the 2nd choice seems counter intuitive. But in reality, this discourages zerging as there is no point in sending more than 4 ppl to a point purely for capping. You’d only send more than 4 people if you want reinforcement in a fight, which is pretty much what’s happening naturally anyways.

Well, here are my thoughts.

TL DR

Change the capture system to something like Alliance Battles in GW1, where each player contribute to the rate of capture of the points up to a set maximum. Makes bunkers actually need team’s help instead of just surviving and preventing capture indefinitely.

(edited by Shadowflare.2759)

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Posted by: Praxis.6289

Praxis.6289

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Posted by: Stin.9781

Stin.9781

Did that we used 4 guardians though, and 1 ele) easy wins most of the time unless they think of to bring couple of necros then i just swap to thief and its still win .

guardians are way too easy atm.

Former Devils Inside Thief R43

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Posted by: Kerishan.8460

Kerishan.8460

This is how 5 idiots play this game.

And this is the reason ANet should fix sPvP. (Or at least bunker spec)

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Posted by: pan parodia.9536

pan parodia.9536

I don’t even know why this hasn’t been implemented yet, the current state of capturing points is completely kitten Isn’t it logical that 4 people > 1 person. Apparently not. Fix this or lose the players.

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Posted by: PetricaKerempuh.7958

PetricaKerempuh.7958

bump… this is just too awesome for someone not to see. loved the description on youtube:)

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Posted by: R E F L H E X.8413

R E F L H E X.8413

Not saying it would be a fix but a support well necro switch when you see one of these teams could probably help drastically to the opposing team.

One well turns all those boons into conditions, while all the wells he will be using will be giving aoe protection to his allies.One will be doing damage and stacking vulnerability. One gives a heal and regen. Actually two of them seem to be regenning me/team but only the heal one does for sure.

I could post my build and armor but don’t really feel like doing all that right now unless someone wants to see a well nec spec. I’m just saying they should help nothing more or less not sure how many I’d put in a team due to the fact that wells have a somewhat short duration and somewhat long recharge and the fact that there will be guardians on all points.

While I do support this video I think bunkers and damage both needs to come down to mediation, and this would allow glass cannons to be more viable and not die so fast as the glass cannons themselves won’t be putting out extreme numbers but larger than a defensive spec. I’d actually like to see more group support over solo support. In a way bringing back a healer like class that isn’t just a healer so it doesn’t ruin the non holy trinity, a smite monk for example that is a light armored class, can put out decent heals and indirect/situational damage, it would probably be the class I’d play since it would probably take more thought than anything else if they made the damage situational then you have the support side to it, now I also think party bars need a little redoing and when you click a party bar you could target that person, I’d also like to see single target spells make a comeback.

I must’ve missed the sign that said it was a fire sale.

(edited by R E F L H E X.8413)

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Posted by: Master Charles.7093

Master Charles.7093

Thanks for the video. This should help.

Guardians are often unbeatable 1v1, and the greatsword+spirit weapons build seems just as ridiculous and frustrating.

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Posted by: Shadowflare.2759

Shadowflare.2759

On the one hand, the video is slightly helpful. On the other, running a full team of guardians, or a guardian majority team, really only serves to add to the problem: the lack of variety in tpvp. I’d rather take a necro switch than that, for at least that doesn’t restrict an entire team.

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Posted by: Braxxus.2904

Braxxus.2904

wow…

Just wow. That vid is epic.

Blackwater Vanguard
Yaks Bend

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Posted by: Praxis.6289

Praxis.6289

“One well turns all those boons into conditions”

I know there’s a well that turns 1 boon into condition every 5 second tick… thats a pretty slow conversion rate vs 5 guardian boon potential.

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Posted by: R E F L H E X.8413

R E F L H E X.8413

“One well turns all those boons into conditions”

I know there’s a well that turns 1 boon into condition every 5 second tick… thats a pretty slow conversion rate vs 5 guardian boon potential.

It is a little slow and won’t strip everything however it says it pulses every 1 second for 5 seconds, and the actual description needs to be redone a bit because all it says if I remember right is boons into conditions not how many and it is probably one per tick so that would = 5 boons per well in 5 seconds plus they ball so it has potential of 5×3 = 15 conditions. This is why i said I’m not sure how many I would bring for a few reasons – 1 the necros would be there to group protect/heal/regen which those guys seem to be running off of lots of aoe, 2- The necros would also secondarily be stripping conditions off of the guardians and one necro could exchange one of his wells for the full on strip that turns all boons into conditions on a single target but is also somehow avoided very easily by random dodges/running behind the necro while he’s casting it and it sometimes seems as if they just run to your side it won’t land. The necros would be there to help decrease the amount of aoe they are doing by aoe protection and heals/regen, help strip boons, and create openings for the other characters to kill them. I’ve been running runes of dwayna since when I use my well that heals it gives regen + the wells separate regen which isn’t the regen condition + an aoe heal + protection. I was secondarily running life sigils with it but have corruption on atm from switching builds quite a bit.

I must’ve missed the sign that said it was a fire sale.

(edited by R E F L H E X.8413)

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Posted by: Wolf.4739

Wolf.4739

OP – great ideas! I particularly like "Make 4 players and 4 ticks the absolute max. So 8 v 4 means neither team is capping. " as i think it would help (not fix) the zerging issues in sPvP.

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Posted by: Shadowflare.2759

Shadowflare.2759

Tbh I think this capture system should be implemented even if we’re not directly trying to nerf bunkers. It just so happens that this idea can fix the bunker meta at the source. There are much talk of this on GW2 Reddit as well.

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Posted by: Ziddy.2583

Ziddy.2583

Just reduce the protection buff from 33% dmg reduction to 25% or 20%. Make it PvP only if you think it’ll effect the PvEers.

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Posted by: gwawer.9805

gwawer.9805

It’s also not fun to watch. Who wants to see some dude standing around doing nothing at a node? Who wants to see a roamer seeing a bunker and ignoring him?

No, I want to watch constant fights. If a player comes across an enemy, that means a 1v1 is always a viable option. Not “oh, a guardian” he’s too tanky or “oh a thief/mesmer” they are too stealthy/bursty and I’d loose anyway so might as well run off somewhere else.

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Posted by: MajorMelchett.6042

MajorMelchett.6042

This is my fear, on the 15th Anet will nerf guardians into the ground regarding bunkers and possibly do this change aswell (Anet seems to always go from 1 extreme to the other in nerfs). People keep saying “nerf bunkers” (like a few posts up – nerf protection to 25/20%) yet with this simple change in the capture system (that nearly all conquest games modes have i might add) it would fix a lot of the issue without nerfing bunkers at all.

I agree though, this is one of those things that is so obvious that it makes no sense at all why it’s this way now.

Right now you could (just being hypothetical) make a player deal zero damage and take zero damage (again not possible, just making a hypothetical point) and they could hold a point on there own despite an entire team of 8 enemy players standing right beside them on the point – it just makes no sense at all to have it like this.

Simply put, bunkers are fine as is (IMO) and it’s the capture system that needs a nerf (buff?).

Zilori: Guardian – Desolation.
Zarturo: Elemental – Desolation.

(edited by MajorMelchett.6042)

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Posted by: Marklar.2670

Marklar.2670

Im gonna go ahead and say yeah guardians and elementlist if built bunker are unkillable fix bunkers please anet and kitten add some more game modes people are getting hella bored. Oh and dueling why is there no dueling what are u kitten

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Posted by: Marklar.2670

Marklar.2670

w t f i never said kitten i love kittens but w t f

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Posted by: Numot.3965

Numot.3965

Reducing the healing amounts for guardian heals and reducing the recharge would mean you wouldn’t have them scale so crazy with healing power. Changing the cap mechanic like the op would promote zerging around, and make roamers kinda worthless.

Or just strike at bunkers overall by keeping heals outside of regen to slot 6. Having other abilities heal is what lets bunkers live so long as it allows you to easily bridge to the next cast of 6 to refill hp.

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Posted by: Shadowflare.2759

Shadowflare.2759

Reducing the healing amounts for guardian heals and reducing the recharge would mean you wouldn’t have them scale so crazy with healing power. Changing the cap mechanic like the op would promote zerging around, and make roamers kinda worthless.

Or just strike at bunkers overall by keeping heals outside of regen to slot 6. Having other abilities heal is what lets bunkers live so long as it allows you to easily bridge to the next cast of 6 to refill hp.

I’m curious. How exactly would this promote zerging around any more than the current system does? People in Spvp will zerg no matter what, but in tpvp if you were to send a vast majority of your team to cap one point you give up the two other points. This situation happens even now, and it does NOT work for the zerging team.

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Posted by: Siric.3589

Siric.3589

Low points for kills and short neutralize times are what makes bunker team builds viable. There isn’t enough incentive for roaming, collapsing, and killing because it leaves you far to open to a bunker flailing to your point to force a neutralize only to force your to bring back 2 DPS to kill it quickly to regain your point flow.

The idea of having a bunker on a team to allow you to force uneven fights is fine, its when 3-4 players all build super bunker and just stream points that it becomes a problem.

Put more emphasis on roaming and killing while nerfing the hyper abusive offense builds and the game is in a good spot.

[LR] Siric

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Posted by: Rhoto.8791

Rhoto.8791

I absolutely agree with OP, changing the point capping dynamics rather than nerfing classes survivability is the way to go

Chipsu – Elementalist
Maguuma [SWäG]
Original [OG] (good times)

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Posted by: Archaon.6245

Archaon.6245

the solution is simple..make points cappable if attackers outnumber defenders…so you can’t leave a guardian tanking a point forever vs 2 or 3 ppl, or a stealth troll holding wvsw camps… this would also add a bit of fun in pvp cause people HAVE TO MOVE this way…camping points it’s both stupid and boring…have to do so many times with guardian, and when they relize they can’t kill you they won’t come and you just sit there doing nothing for the whole match…really funny. and this will not lead to zergs because you can’t zerg up in pvp leaving 2 other points alone…so i can’t see major issues with this..

(edited by Archaon.6245)

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Posted by: Sebyos.4089

Sebyos.4089

Gonna be hard to play with Guardian self healing especially in those builds. Guardians have the lowest hp by far and reducing healing when many don’t run healing gear or bunker gear would hurt the survival a lot.

To give you an example a GS Guardian with 2000 power will hit for 800-800-1200 and he was critting for 800 so he was really an all out bunker.

80 Norn Necromancer Max : JC, WS, TL, AT.
100% World completion.

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Posted by: Kousetsu.1627

Kousetsu.1627

OP +1

Classes dont need to be rebalanced and possibly ruined, just change the cap mechanic.

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Posted by: Archaon.6245

Archaon.6245

OP +1

Classes dont need to be rebalanced and possibly ruined, just change the cap mechanic.

…and start playing something that can MOVE…not a stupid concrete block to put somewhere to hold a point…srsly? How the crap can you have fun tanking some pugs the whole time in the same spot?

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Posted by: Anathem.5760

Anathem.5760

OP +1
“2)Make 4 players and 4 ticks the absolute max. So 8 v 4 means neither team is capping” I think is the best way

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Posted by: Navzar.2938

Navzar.2938

I’d personally like to see more types of pvp than just point capturing, maybe some good old fashion death matches? And maybe some multiway battles like hero’s ascent in gw1. Variety is always nice ^^ Of course it won’t eliminate bunkers and metas, but at least it’ll be different for each type of pvp, rather than one build being best for all.

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Posted by: Eliam.2834

Eliam.2834

+1 to point capping system update… its needed

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Posted by: Taerik.3405

Taerik.3405

The reason there are bunkers is there is only one kind of map, capture points.

Add in
deathmatch
relic run
kill count
king of the hill

Then the bunker problem will solve itself

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Posted by: Embershard.7294

Embershard.7294

I predict a DEV says “its being worked on…” than patches PvE somemore.
Awesome video though

Necromancer – Embershard
Guardian – Vindicator Azure
Thief – Labrat Thief

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Posted by: Sachmet.2947

Sachmet.2947

OP +1

Classes dont need to be rebalanced and possibly ruined, just change the cap mechanic.

…and start playing something that can MOVE…not a stupid concrete block to put somewhere to hold a point…srsly? How the crap can you have fun tanking some pugs the whole time in the same spot?

Just to note, it is fun to tank people in this game because it is mostly about knowing when to use your abilities to negate your opponents attacks, when to dodge and when to heal. It is fun being able to know how to stop a thief from doing max burst damage, etc.

Fun doesn’t have to come from seeing your character pull off big numbers on someone else. There can be much fun to be had from being able to stop people from pulling off big numbers on you or your team-mates. And if it wins the match, then so much the better.

So quite honestly, I’m not sure the call to reduce this game to a DPS race is really a good thing. Bunker builds should be viable, because defense does actually matter in a game mode centered around capturing and holding points. But maybe what can be done is this as a suggestion:

You can neutralise a point if you have a 2v1 situation on a point, but you can’t capture it. But, you at least neutralise the point to stop the enemy from getting any points from it. However, 1 attacker versus 2 defenders will not neutralise a point. Only once the point is cleared can one capture it completely.

This way there’s still a reason to play defensively, but also gives means to offensive teams to act against bunker setups.

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Posted by: Regrets of Sini.6083

Regrets of Sini.6083

What makes bunkers so strong right now, is due to a slight exploit of the game mechanic that no one can capture a point while an enemy is sitting on it. This is not an illegal exploit obviously, but it does mean that bunkers don’t actually have to do anything but staying alive on the point.

This isn’t an exploit, it is Design Flaw.

Bunkers are kind of a separate thing from the team. Their job is to stay alive as long as possible, not so much to help other members of their team.

So let’s fix how the capturing system works. I recommend bringing back the same system used in alliance battles in Guild Wars 1.

For those who don’t know, this is how it worked:

-One person standing on a point would give one tick of capture to their team.
-Two people would give 2 ticks, and so on up to a maximum of 4 players giving 4 ticks.
-When there are players from both teams on the point, you subtract the ticks coming from both sides. So a 2 v 1 situation would give 1 tick of capture to the team outnumbering the other.

What does this mean? It means that the defending player will be holding the point from capture vs one other player. However, if he wants to hold that point when outnumbered, they HAVE to get help from allies.

This is much needed change for both tPvP and WvW.

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Posted by: Archaon.6245

Archaon.6245

OP +1

Classes dont need to be rebalanced and possibly ruined, just change the cap mechanic.

…and start playing something that can MOVE…not a stupid concrete block to put somewhere to hold a point…srsly? How the crap can you have fun tanking some pugs the whole time in the same spot?

Just to note, it is fun to tank people in this game because it is mostly about knowing when to use your abilities to negate your opponents attacks, when to dodge and when to heal.

http://youtu.be/2wixgh7Dv_A Did you see it?
Actually those people, read description, have no idea how to play a bunker guardian and still rock…so not much skills needed

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Posted by: Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

How can we prevent Mesmers , from making a portal between 2 bases and teleport all their team members ? :P

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Posted by: avalon.4102

avalon.4102

omg all those noobs who can’t play the game and /cry_wall-of-text about bunkers WOW.

noob player can’t land any skill / can’t burst and obv can’t kill a bunker and cries …

There’s a very big difference between scrubs / medium /really good players in this game. Just because you’re unable to land skills correcltly / never bother to duel bunkers doesn’t mean it’s unkillable, at all.

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Posted by: Rolyate.6753

Rolyate.6753

If they just made it so you can only be healed by 1-2 symbols at most per second, this would not be an issue. :/

Rolyate
How do you pronounce your name?