Guild Wars 2

How about this, u make focus the viable bunker weapon for eles by switching cleansing wave with comet, cleansing wave is a big part of why bunker eles pick offhand dagger and the fact focus has no heal on it is why noone takes it. Also u need to make obsidian flesh a block so it doesnt get neutralized when defending a point. I think this will be enough off a nerf to dagger so u can give us back the mobility we need as a close range fighter with no ability to switch to long range weapons. Then u put rtl back on 15s CD and back on 1500 range and u keep the nerf on spirit watch or even incrase it if need be.
This might finally bring a useless weapon into play while also giving us back the option for some dps builds which absolutely need their mobility.

Second thing is the nerf to cleansing water, now this more than nerfing cantrips nerfs staff, one off the coolest things about staff was the support combo off healing rain and cleansing water which is now gone for no good reason. It would make alot more sense for u too change soothing disruption trait (remove vigor from it for example) or even remove/replace it with something else to bring down cantrips. Then to make staff more viable make lightning surge instant and make gust and shockwave to travel faster so u can actually hit something with it as it is very easy to miss right now from range with those two spells.

Third thing is u need to completely redesign conjure weapons and buff or redesign glyphs and signets and give us some better condi build options.

Its been 8 months and im sad to say there hasnt been one balance patch that would make me excited and start theorycrafting for new builds on the ele as we never get any new good options but just loose old ones.

i agree with the change suggestion, this could bring focus into the game and make offhand dagger more CC oriented (as it already is CC oriented with Earthquake, Updraft, partially Frost Aura)

anyway, i dont agree with RTL 1500 range and 15sec CD, its just too much… 1200 range is what all other profs got, its reasonable, CD 20sec would be ok…

+1
I still don’t know why they didn’t force “focus” to be the bunker-spec weapon. I mean “dagger”??? makes no sense to me. The nerf of cleansing wave wasn’t actually a big deal for bunker-eles, as they aren’t spamming cantrips. Totally missed the target to lower down bunker-eles.

MaXi.3642:

anyway, i dont agree with RTL 1500 range and 15sec CD, its just too much… 1200 range is what all other profs got, its reasonable, CD 20sec would be ok…

Not really, when u take the sustain off the dagger u can no longer rtl away heal to full and come back so giving good mobility to the squishiest class is not too much.
+ u cant compare apples to oranges, other proffesions also get the option to bring a ranged weapon into the fight and the best mobility class thief also has invis to go with it, ranger has evade and a warrior has a strudy body .

MaXi.3642:

i agree with the change suggestion, this could bring focus into the game and make offhand dagger more CC oriented (as it already is CC oriented with Earthquake, Updraft, partially Frost Aura)

anyway, i dont agree with RTL 1500 range and 15sec CD, its just too much… 1200 range is what all other profs got, its reasonable, CD 20sec would be ok…

Ranger got 1200 range on 12s cd. So RTL should not be almost twice that. (and certainly not over 3 times as it currently is)

I already suggested making the focus the bunker weapon.

:C

Guza is bringing a very good point.

Right now we have only one viable offhand which is nerfed. Dagger has over nerfed mobility and nerfed sustain (we were supposed to be roamers, thanks for the 1200 every 40 seconds)

By switching water5 skills we would have two viable offhands. One for bunkering (with no rtl) and one with good roaming/cc but way less sustain (Revert rtl change)

It would have been an intelligent nerf that would have opened many build possibilities.
Instead, they tried to nerf cantrips but they nerfed the less viable builds: dps/roaming ele, staff ele, glyph ele, signet ele, ether renewal builds (mistform)…

They try to nerf cantrips, but they dont know they are forcing us to play them because of the general healing nerf. Keep nerfing the dps ele sustain and everything youll see will be boring bunkers with zero mobility = boring class.

In other words, imagine each build had a rating:
Cantrips 10/10
Sd Dps 7/10
Dd dps 8/10
Staff support 5/10
Focus builds 4/10

The nerfs lowered every build by 3
Cantrips 7/10
Sd 4/10
Dd 5/10
Staff 2/10
Focus 1/10

Conclusion: keep playing cantrips. By the time the right nerf comes to them, other builds will be kitten

For the: “omg nerf the ele i dont know a single skill of that class and i lose they must be op” crowd. After the nerfs, being a dps ele you have nothing to do vs an equally skilled engi or ranger. They do more damage, they have more sustain. And also, eles mpbility is reduced so you are
A) forced to die. Its very difficult to disengage even if you know you are likely to lose before engaging
B) forced to play full bunker builds. You wont kill them either, but at least they will have to bring 2 to kill you.

Before the patch I knew ele deserved a nerf, but I wasnt worried because I thought anet knew how to do it. I was so wrong.

With hellishly low DMG output and invul with zero push back or launch. Its not much of a bunker without comet its damage will drop even further gg focus.

If focus had cleansing wave it would have a very good bunkering at the cost of zero mobility. The good condi removal of focus would allow eles to play other utilities.

A good use of certain conjured weapons (light hammer) would provide a knockback to the build. Other conj weapons could be used, if they were not so buggy.

In the other hand, dagger would have more cc an less heal/condi remv but good mobility; feeling like a real dps class.

I always thought that the focus was meant to be the bunker weapon. And certainly, cleansing water not only fits it, it also makes more sense in it than in OH Dagger, imo.

But there are a few problems. First, comet does not fit well with dagger. It’s a ranged attack, and focus is a ranged option. Unless the devs decide to go a bit more radical, and put comet in staff or in the scepter, and something else into the oh dagger. Second, focus is not used for several reasons, most of them being the many underpowered skills.

Let’s not forget that horrible fire set in focus.

Flamewall is an outdated skill by design. The devs have since long ago made line fields, and sometimes even some of the circle fields when the context makes sense, to apply a single, big stack of an effect instead of 1s of something every second. I’m talking about Mesmer’s focus line, or even about oh dagger’s ring of fire line circle. Currently, circle of fire is pretty much the superior version of flamewall. Crossing it is far more damaging, the radius for combo fields is bigger, and it still deals good direct damage. You put a flamewall inbetween you and your opponent, and guess what? Your opponent passes through it receiving 1 second of burning. That’s it. It’s terrible. You sometimes are forced to put it at melee range, where they are attacking you, and even then…

And fire shield? Fire shield is a shield that does not shields. The idea behind fire shield, apparently, is that you should eat a 8k-12k burst in exchance for 2-3 seconds of burning and 2-3 stacks of might. Fire Shield was, clearly, not designed specifically for elementalists. It makes sense in guardians, in warriors, in necromancers, but it has no purpose to elementalists, who rely on disruption, mobility, defensive boons and active defenses to survive, bunkers included. Frost Aura already suffered from a similar problem, but at least it could prevent a second attack thanks to chill, and it lasts longer, and it has now a 10% damage reduction.

For water, make #4 last longer or have a lower cooldown, and it’ll be more useful when decapping or capping points and preventing bursts. It’ll still be ineffective at pve, but it could always be added an extra functionality. Comet is almost fine, but it needs a damage boost or something for it to feel as epic as its name. It’s a skill you’ll usually want to combo with your flamewall for 3 stacks of might, so I suppose the devs intend for it to somehow be part of a (smaller than oh’s dagger) damage sequence. Actually, honestly, the blast finisher doesn’t even makes sense. It feels random.

If Gale was meant to help us burst, it’s ineffective, and regardles, that won’t help bunkers much.

That leaves us with the awesome earth line, and the overpowered Magnetic Wave. Seriously, good melee damage, aoe cripple for 4 seconds, three condition removal, reflect projectile and a blast finisher for 25s? What were the devs thinking? :P It’s like they purposefully made this skill so overpowered, to compensate for the entire fire line. But this makes the skill not feel very elegant. And it feels like an OH dagger skill due to the melee range of several effects. I wouldn’t mind for the skill to be simplified, and its effects be transfered to somewhere else in the focus.

Vayra.3290:

MaXi.3642:

i agree with the change suggestion, this could bring focus into the game and make offhand dagger more CC oriented (as it already is CC oriented with Earthquake, Updraft, partially Frost Aura)

anyway, i dont agree with RTL 1500 range and 15sec CD, its just too much… 1200 range is what all other profs got, its reasonable, CD 20sec would be ok…

Ranger got 1200 range on 12s cd. So RTL should not be almost twice that. (and certainly not over 3 times as it currently is)

Warrior’s Rush is 1200 at 20s and it’s affected by movement debuffs.
End result? Warriors and Rangers aren’t Ele’s.

The 40 second thing is excessive, but their tests must have shown that on 20 seconds it was still too short. If you use it as an engage it worked just like it did before. If you use it to get away, you need to actually disengage and not come back to the same fight. That’s what they wanted to fix, and it seems like this was a reasonable way to fix it. The mistform change and cleansing wave change seem reasonable too.

If it turns out to be too much, I’m sure they’ll adjust it just like they did with the skills of other classes.

Atherakhia.4086:

If it turns out to be too much, I’m sure they’ll adjust it just like they did with the skills of other classes.

In a month or two, but yes.

That sure makes me feel better about my scepter/dagger burst build being knifed in the hip.

Atherakhia.4086:

Vayra.3290:

MaXi.3642:

i agree with the change suggestion, this could bring focus into the game and make offhand dagger more CC oriented (as it already is CC oriented with Earthquake, Updraft, partially Frost Aura)

anyway, i dont agree with RTL 1500 range and 15sec CD, its just too much… 1200 range is what all other profs got, its reasonable, CD 20sec would be ok…

Ranger got 1200 range on 12s cd. So RTL should not be almost twice that. (and certainly not over 3 times as it currently is)

Warrior’s Rush is 1200 at 20s and it’s affected by movement debuffs.
End result? Warriors and Rangers aren’t Ele’s.

The 40 second thing is excessive, but their tests must have shown that on 20 seconds it was still too short. If you use it as an engage it worked just like it did before. If you use it to get away, you need to actually disengage and not come back to the same fight. That’s what they wanted to fix, and it seems like this was a reasonable way to fix it. The mistform change and cleansing wave change seem reasonable too.

If it turns out to be too much, I’m sure they’ll adjust it just like they did with the skills of other classes.

Except if the enemy dodges, blinds you, uses aegis or an invul skill you get slapped with a 40s cooldown, no matter that you used it as a charge and in 2 of the cases actually hit your opponent.

I think devs should seriously consider polishing RTL’s new +20s drawback. Don’t have it to activate outside of combat nor when a hit is unsuccessful.

Back to focus, people should keep in mind that there are also many people hoping that the focus can be, someday, the equip of choice for a long-range damage dealer. With a fire line that was any strong and, say, a much stronger comet, it could be somewhat that. Staff is a support weapon, oh dagger is a melee range disrupt/ burst weapon, and if focus is to remain a defensive “cantrip-substitute” choice and nothing more, then we elementalists will need a new off-hand choice for long-range damage in the future, when the profession’s weapon selection choice is expanded.

If nothing else, focus could also be the condition damage weapon of choice, due to a fireline that is heavily dedicated to burning, but it suffers from the problem that earth has no bleeding option. Unless they make an exception, and add a good stack of bleeding to comet, much like how they did with frost bow’s ice storm. Besides, daze + bleed could cause panic to the opponent. :P AND it would allow x/f eles to be able to cause condition damage from 3 different attunements.

Vayra.3290:

Atherakhia.4086:

Vayra.3290:

MaXi.3642:

i agree with the change suggestion, this could bring focus into the game and make offhand dagger more CC oriented (as it already is CC oriented with Earthquake, Updraft, partially Frost Aura)

anyway, i dont agree with RTL 1500 range and 15sec CD, its just too much… 1200 range is what all other profs got, its reasonable, CD 20sec would be ok…

Ranger got 1200 range on 12s cd. So RTL should not be almost twice that. (and certainly not over 3 times as it currently is)

Warrior’s Rush is 1200 at 20s and it’s affected by movement debuffs.
End result? Warriors and Rangers aren’t Ele’s.

The 40 second thing is excessive, but their tests must have shown that on 20 seconds it was still too short. If you use it as an engage it worked just like it did before. If you use it to get away, you need to actually disengage and not come back to the same fight. That’s what they wanted to fix, and it seems like this was a reasonable way to fix it. The mistform change and cleansing wave change seem reasonable too.

If it turns out to be too much, I’m sure they’ll adjust it just like they did with the skills of other classes.

Except if the enemy dodges, blinds you, uses aegis or an invul skill you get slapped with a 40s cooldown, no matter that you used it as a charge and in 2 of the cases actually hit your opponent.

If the enemy dodges you were out played, no way around that.
If you get blinded, I’d love to know how at 1200 yards away.
Aegis is a legitimate concern, but other classes rely on it being a miss. Everyone can’t be a winner all the time.

I’m sorry, but I think after a week or 2 and all the drama settles down people will fall back into their routine and everything will work itself out. I do feel the 40 second cooldown is excessive and I would have sooner made it so movement skills affected RTL so it wasn’t so useful as an escape. But I’m not a game designer. The other changes seem more than reasonable.

“If you get blinded, I’d love to know how at 1200 yards away.”

You know you don’t have to be at 1200 yards to use RTL right?

The real problem is we got from 1550 yards, 15 secs CD to 1200 yards 40 secs CD. This is a huge nerf to a core skill that wasn’t the root of the problem.

1550 yards in 15 seconds: 103,3 yards/sec
1200 yards in 40 seconds: 30 yards/sec

nerf% = 100% – [(30*100)/103,3]% = 70,96% nerf. This is a huge change, when anet has always said they would do little nerfs. But the QQ in the forums is too powerful.

Many people still complains about eles, by inertia.
After patch: “Aight lets see how’s the balance. Look! One ele! Ill try to kill him! I dont know any of his skills nor how to counter them, but who cares, I have trained vs golems! … Oh he killed me, and I’m very good player! Eles must be very OP. I’ll make a thread in the forums”

Id like to know what balance devs think about this change and how satified they are about recent nerfs.

Focus is not ment to be a dmg weapon diogo (u have staff for that) and id much rather let it be a decent tank/support pick than not being taken at all.

guza.6170:

Focus is not ment to be a dmg weapon diogo (u have staff for that) and id much rather let it be a decent tank/support pick than not being taken at all.

Staff was not meant to be a damage weapon at all… :P I mean, sure, you have some cool aoe damage with fire, but almost everything staff has to offer is support or crowd control.

Only scepter and the two daggers revolved around heavy damage.

i meant long range dmg.

YES PLS..
Give me back my rtl..I never asked to be a bunker anyway.Make the switch and make the rtl same it was pre nerf..If you want further nerf the healing on dagger mh and increase damage.
As for cleansing wave ..yeah you screwed staff but staff is op,right?? :P

ensoriki.5789:

With hellishly low DMG output and invul with zero push back or launch. Its not much of a bunker without comet its damage will drop even further gg focus.

You know they could make lightning hammer smoother to use with less casting times.
Theres your pushbacks and cc.Plus one less cantrip for ele bunkers.
There are a lot of things they could do tbh..they picked the worst imo.They killed d/d wvw roamer as well since zergs just outrun you now and you have no stealths and other ways to reset the fight like thief and mesm

Something tells me that, the day they’ll nerf the cantrips’ massive stunbreaking, and buff the focus, RTL’s nerf can be reversed without negative consequences, mostly because the bunkers will pick the focus instead, only leaving the glass cannons with RTL.

Anyways, I still think the focus should be a good/ decent long-range damage weapon if players spec for it. Fire Shield tries to be the elementalist’s version of Retaliation, even though it’s lacking. Water’s focus is more offensive than dagger’s, for some reason. Magnetic Wave can still do some damage, and Gale, if it was a little bit stronger, it would be a glass cannon’s dream skill.

How about no there are other things to work on for the time being. The people that play eles are some of the loudest most privlieged acting people on these forums. Its like : I played the best class in the game for months and they finally take some decent nerfs, while still being pretty strong, and isntead of waiting for the dust to settle we need to have to have a bunch of fixes TODAY! There are so many broken builds and things across the board that need to be fixed for just about every class. Get in line nobody wants to hear all this whining.

Kwll.1468:

How about no there are other things to work on for the time being. The people that play eles are some of the loudest most privlieged acting people on these forums. Its like : I played the best class in the game for months and they finally take some decent nerfs, while still being pretty strong, and isntead of waiting for the dust to settle we need to have to have a bunch of fixes TODAY! There are so many broken builds and things across the board that need to be fixed for just about every class. Get in line nobody wants to hear all this whining.

So because a certain build was OP, all eles are guilty and we deserve to be weaker for a few months as punishment?

Dont even respond to posts like that, this is a thread for constructive talk about how to make ele beter ( more variety, balanced, fun…) ignore the rest.

I think OP’s general suggestion is great. Turning focus into a true bunker off-hand and dagger-OH into a mobility+damage tool will open up more build variety. It will also address a lot of the complaints people have about mobile bunker eles (which still exist in tpvp since you only need 1 RtL + a little bit of running time to get from one point to another on most tourney maps).

And Kwll, OP is not asking for these changes to take priority over everything else. A.net will prioritize these issues as it sees fit; we’re merely offering suggestions. So please get off your high horse about eles acting entitled and overprivileged. Asinine comments like that are unproductive and undermine your otherwise thoughtful points.