Guild Wars 2

butch.8136:

Congrats on 800 viewers on an event that gets streamed a few times a year. /s

Zerg v Zerg happens now occasionally but when you put it in a seperate gamemode, you’ll expect short queue times, quality matches around the clock.
Do you really see that happening?

Even more, people want 10v10, 15v15 and even 20v20. What are you gonna chose? Or you want all options? Splitting it even more?

I want to see it happen just to put the discussion to rest. I’ll guarantee you that it’ll fail.

Apparently this is the time where all of the sour players come into the forums and taint productive threads with their bile. If you’re calling 10s, 15s and 20s “Zerg v Zerg”, then my goodness you have a very narrow view on what a good fight entails. If you ever have something productive to say on this matter, please do so. Otherwise, please just keep it to yourself.

Opposing opinions are welcomed, as they make arguments for the problems the game mode will have – to which we can come up with solutions in a community proposal to ArenaNet.

I am currently working on gathering guild leaders in the current scene to come up with a loose structure for a proposal, our own sort of CDI. Keep an eye out in the future if you’d like to shoot us down for whatever reason, it’ll just make our ideas that much more airtight!

Adding my support, even though I don’t play this format.

I don’t even WvW anymore really, since I’ve found much more overall fun with cross-server guilds. And that’s caused most of my time to divert to other (single player) games.

It’s one thing to give an opposing opinion on the matter in a constructive way.

It’s another thing to derail the thread with a personal attack on the OP that is unrelated to the topic, and then to also present the idea that 10-20s are Zerg v Zerg and then claim that the entire idea will fail without stating any supporting reasons for either statement.

+1, I hope this gets us somewhere.

+1

Though I frown on GvsG in BL and EBG, I respect players and guilds involved.
And I would appreciate it if A-Net would persue a viable option In arena settings or balanced maps. for 25 vs 25 with -spectators-. there are quite a lot of guilds who like to engage in GvG either balanced (could be made ranked?) or open world.

I find GvG happen often in OS in the arena. unfortuately there seem to always be trolls

Looking at it can be a valuable learning tool.

Greetz,

Silver combatant from SFR

+1 to OP. I would really appreciate if Anet looks into this finds a way to give the community some driving force towards this.

I like the idea a lot and am all for it. I like to watch GvGs and have all respect for those groups that play so well together.
Only fear i have is…if you add a special mode with seperate maps and maybe a Megaserver lfg or que tool WvW could suffer a lot.
There are enough GvG guilds out there which are roeming the borderlands searching for fights or waiting for the enemy. On smaller servers they make all the difference and on larger server they are often highly invested in organizing guilds, commanders and coverage.
If they have less incentive to go onto the WvW maps because they can instead have one fight after another in GvG this could be really bad for WvW.

This is my only concern and it is only of concern depending how they would implement such a mode. Like i said in general i would love to see such a mode.

+1
Art Imitate Life…

“Over the next hundred years, the human kingdoms prospered. Powerful groups grew up within each nation. These were known as guilds. It was these groups, these guilds, that held the real power in Tyria. Though there were kings and organizations that made the laws and regulated the land, it was the guilds that enforced these laws—or didn’t—as they saw fit. As these guilds grew, their influence began to overlap. "

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

Face.4216:

The guy who is known for drops racial slurs and trolls on the other forums comes here and tries to make a business pitch, like 800 viewers is some big thing. It’s not. Not to mention how everything about this scene is toxic, ANet can’t get any reliable publicity out of this. GG, Mr. Big GvG Thought Leader-San.

You deleted one post to make another with the same exact message. Or perhaps you didn’t delete it and ArenaNet did it for you. Perhaps you missed the message that your personal attacks on the person trying to raise a valid, productive pitch aren’t welcomed and are being punished with infractions. The world may never know.

+1.
Well written.

MokoToko.6890:

Face.4216:

The guy who is known for drops racial slurs and trolls on the other forums comes here and tries to make a business pitch, like 800 viewers is some big thing. It’s not. Not to mention how everything about this scene is toxic, ANet can’t get any reliable publicity out of this. GG, Mr. Big GvG Thought Leader-San.

You deleted one post to make another with the same exact message. Or perhaps you didn’t delete it and ArenaNet did it for you. Perhaps you missed the message that your personal attacks on the person trying to raise a valid, productive pitch aren’t welcomed and are being punished with infractions. The world may never know.

This is just a personal attack. Dont take this guy seriously.

UnknownRH.4592:

This is just a personal attack. Dont take this guy seriously.

Oh I get that. Just kittenizing the fool.

Honestly, in my opinion, I think the reason they aren’t going to implement this feature is because they’d need to put in a GvG forum section, and they’re probably too afraid that it would end up like the WvW forum section, where everyone got banned and they had to eventually take it down. ANet recognizes this is a badly want feature however they’re also thinking of the competitiveness about it, and they’re more than likely not willing to deal with trash talk, such as what goes on in Gw2WvW.net against all the GvG guilds.

However, I absolutely love GvG’s and I’d like to see the feature added in also
+1 and adding my respect to Fallen for the initiative.

EDIT: ArenaNet are probably trying to shield the rest of the player base IE; PvE, PvP and Casual WvW players from the toxicity that is the GvG scene, and it is fairly toxic – IF YOU TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

+999999

Good productive post and hopefully we can show that GvG is much more then a bunch of salty elitest players, there are a lot of people who GvG that are not like that.

+1 of course, for the umpteenth time

+1 Community has showed GvG is a fun game mode for them, while anet has been ignoring it completely.

It’s even amazing how the community has been able to create a fresh new game mode without the devs even think about it.
Just for that it deserves some investment from them.

+1 nice and clean thread.

I remember till 6 or 7 months ago , the GvG servers(servers in wich GvG guilds used to stack) where also able to drive the entire server performance in order to predict the next matchup and fight against another chosen server “stacked” with GvG guilds.

I can’t say that was a good thing , considering that guilds were able to drive the final match – score for that kind personal porpuse and not for what the WvW was created for (don’t kill me ,it’s just my opinion).

Also,thinking about it , i would have not a single idea on how to implement that unofficial GvG scenario .

The only thing i came up with ,would be allow that GvG guilds to be able to fight other guilds of other Tiers / Server “on demand” .

For example if guild “X” in EU Tier 1 wants to fight guild “Y” in EU Tier 3 there should be a mechanic to allow that 2 guilds fight eachother without have to transfer the whole guild to another Server only for that GvG.

I heard there will be Halls with the expansion….
It would be really nice if , for example , that Halls should be able to Host an Arena like the one in Obsidian , where a Guild can invite another Guild from another Server and be able to fight them without have to completely transfer to another server.
Or again , allow Custom Arena to be played as 20vs20 , and provide one map a little bigger than the others we have.
Make them for real “Custom” and for real “Arenas”.

But…i think the whole thing would require too many resources from the system and from the Devs…. i don’t know .

Anyway , this comunity and the same Anets Devs both have awesome ideas , i’m sure if there is the will of “help” the GvG gameplay , something can be done.

And just to remark it , the views on that videos both in-live and on the Tube are amazing IF you compare them to the 5vs5 mode .

Even if all you do is watch, its a great game mode. 15v15, 20v20 – it can be a blast even for those who don’t play this style much. You can take what you learn to the rest of the game, be it tPvP, WvW etc. For those of us waaaaaay past PvE, this is the end game. It can be a blast. You have hands down the BEST combat system in the game. sPvP is fine..but endorse the scale! Invest and you will see.

+1 Up

+1

The streamer, tv/docgotgame, gets on average 650+ viewers a day and is starting to move towards the GvG also. Objectively, gvg is the most fun aspect about Gw2. A supported 15v15 or 20v20 game-mode by the devs would get peoples’ attention.

+1

Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype! Hype!

Just imagine “some” arenas next to each other in Black Citadel, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 10v10, 20v20, XvX fights going on, players watching them, “betting” on the outcome (anyone wanna have a betting achievement/title for your bet’s win/loss ratio? ), having fun..

+1!

+1 but don’t expect Anet to suddenly change after two years of ignoring the scene

+1 ~ I’d pay money for this.

MokoToko.6890:

It’s one thing to give an opposing opinion on the matter in a constructive way.

It’s another thing to derail the thread with a personal attack on the OP that is unrelated to the topic, and then to also present the idea that 10-20s are Zerg v Zerg and then claim that the entire idea will fail without stating any supporting reasons for either statement.

I did give reasons: splitting up queues is already a hot debated issue in Spvp as you need a decent population to fill those queues in order to get quality matches.

You guys use GvG, I use ZergvZerg. For me GvG will always be gw1 Gvg. I can use my own terms.

+1 I’ve always loved the GvG scene, Anet is missing out on ALOT here.

Hopefully the CDI will take place on these forums.

1/2
*TLDR in the second post, had to do some formatting for the size

Hey I’ve been in the top part of GvGs all the time since all the way from the start ( [RG] [VII] [TA]). Since January 2013 or what. I want to give my yearly 2-cents about this subject and bit of history.

From “hey you smelly donut TUPs come east of your spawn we are waiting for you!”
into “SiN my brother come down south to windmill, bring all you got, we keel you!”
into 20 of your best down to windmill at thursday 8PM, with timers, with positions. And now ofc OS.

This is a touchy subject and rises up periodicly just like in the past and half of the posters always have wrong approach to this subject (might be abit better nowadays). A toxic one for the well being of WvW or progress in my opinion.

What ~half of the people always forget/don’t realise is that GvG (or large-scale TDM) did not born for e-sports, it was never about e-sports, ques, instanced arenas, pricepools, money. And it should not be. (hey sure let’s have a long standing tournament with some gems and gold but this is not the core issue!)

It was born to make WvWvW BETTER!

To make WvWvW into a playground of equal sized guilds battleing it out in spontanious manner all around the map (aka equal number gvgs born from “ppt” meta game).
It was a tool to fight against the blob mentality (you can only bring 20 sorry), it was desperate tool to ensure fair and equal numbers! It was a way to drop out the pugs following you around (they should find a GUILD!) ruining fair fights, and to avoid that zoneblob facerolling and lagging out everyone.
Essentially our dream (and I’m sure many of you hold the same) was and is that lets say with a zone cap of “100” we have 4 guilds of 20 guys from each server in the zone, with 20 left for roaming/camp parties and afkers (20/20/20/20/20). Instead what we have had (50/30/0/0/20).
Why do we have skill lag, why do our computers fry? Because PEOPLE DO NOT “GVG”. If everyone had 20mans skill lag would be so much more rare in practise (let’s not get to tecnicalities here) and all computers could handle the environment better (no more 15 fps fights).

2/2
Why did the WvWvW culture develop into 50+man zone blobs. Instead of 2020202020 split. This is a subject of what ifs for the beta days.
What Anet failed to do (didn’t want to) was to incentivise a static raid sizes and focus on guilds. There are multiple small things there could have been to start of the evolution of WvW to the right direction, like (at launch), the WvW became runaway arms race with numbers (10 man cannot kill the guild, guild cannot kill the blob, megaguild becomes 30+ and kills the blob, guild cannot kill the megaguild) (first blob guilds and blobs (50+) were national guilds and server). This has since toned down, the time of megaguilds is dead (actual good guilds running regular 30+), and amount of static king of ruins fights have increased because killing a full zone blob is very difficult with 20-25 compared to 35.

Private commander tags, colored tags, commander guild tag on map, maximum squad size and a reason to join it (master calls, alert or something, commander skills), guild size has to be upgraded for larger, guild banner you can carry, guild tabard, guild halls, guild banner shown in LA if you the king, these are just things with “commander” and “guild” in them there is plenty more from mechanics, map layout blablabla and so on.
OS with 20v20 showmatches “supported” (aknowledged, encouraged) by Anet at and after launch, w/e (so people know 20 is your goal, not 35).
Big part of the 20 man ideology (24) was born from WAR because that was our idea of WvW, without this influence WvW would be a mess.

So… The moment I see someone mention e-sports and money with GvG I cry of anger and frustration because simply that is not possible even in the wildest dreams so don’t even mention that (cmon).
Then people mention que systems with supported tournaments, I cry out of sadness – the WvW culture could be different and we wouldn’t have to be thinking about these things. I think of practicalities and it is not really possible because takeing away GvG guilds from WvW means death of WvW and the people in these guilds want both spontanious openfield fighting and controlled GvGs, not just latter! Aka not possible or good for the guilds nor WvW.
If people ever pick up on the core issues of " WvW should be different so we wouldn’t need GvG" or how Anet should have and should design new maps (EotM), guild&commander changes and all changes to guide and push the culture to be guild centered not random community blob centered. I jump of joy and I don’t have to do these posts.

Bubi.5237:

Just imagine “some” arenas next to each other in Black Citadel, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 10v10, 20v20, XvX fights going on, players watching them, “betting” on the outcome (anyone wanna have a betting achievement/title for your bet’s win/loss ratio? ), having fun..

+1!

That would be pretty awesome if it’s possible. Something like the arena area the Citadel already has, and set it up so only the participating teams are able to be in the combat zone. Spectators get a clear view, but aren’t able to get close enough to actually do anything.

+1

If Anet read over this I have a few suggestions as a fellow game dev. One thing to remember is that sometimes what you envision for the player is not what the player wants. That can be daunting at times, especially when you don’t have a lot of time and devotion left to side projects.

My recommendation is to have a few devs join the guilds that are currently participating in GvG and see what it is like for themselves. On the outside GvG looks like a bunch of people throwing things at each other in a disorganized group. It can look like a zerg vs a zerg but once you get into the heart of it and listen to the communication, tactics and gameplay you will see why it is interesting.

If you don’t have the time and resources to work on something like this I am willing to set aside some extra time to help out as a consultant or contractor. I’ll even do it as a volunteer because this is something worth looking into and it just needs that little push.

As a community we have been saying this to Anet for over 3 years. And they shut it down every time because they have a baby, spvp. But they overlook the fact that spvp, even with stronghold, is just not that good and doesn’t really highlight the strengths of a combat system they put together that is actually really stellar.

Generally, a player created game mode that has zero backing from anet and at times anet actually hindered it, all of it is player word of mouth, and it generates almost the same amount of viewers as a completely backed and promoted game mode that they push extremely kitten the player population.

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

-1 for just one simple reason…

even SPvP with its 5v5 have queue time problems (sometimes even 5+ minutes), if someone really think that similar system with a 20v20 deathmatch could work, he is a dreamer…

but I wouldn’t be against an option to set the custom arena in SPvP to 20v20 so those people can do in-house battles in a private environment

I’m Vex and I approve this message. +1

The only reason people think the gvg scene is more toxic than the spvp scene is because no one knows any of the spvp guilds at all, besides maybe The Abjured, and just go watch some of their videos and see how toxic the spvp scene is.

The problem with everything is that Anet (CLICHE ALERT) just will not see the forest for the trees and will continue to stick it’s head in the sand and dig themselves to China trying to get spvp to work when it is just a boring and unexciting game mode. No one wants to hear that something they poured countless hours on creating is a giant failure but this is where we are at this point point in the game.

I would love for them to support GvGs but it just isn’t going to happen 3 years into the game.

This is an amazing and constructive discussion, I really appreciate all the support posts, as well as all the differing opinions being provided. It’s awesome that we’re keeping this on track, lets keep it going as it’s giving me a lot of ideas as to how I want to structure our eventual “CDI” that we are going to bring to ArenaNet.

I’d like to point out, as a general concern people have several times mentioned the “toxicity” of the GvG scene. While I believe there has absolutely been a level of toxicity, I believe that this is partly in place because in order to create a large amount of “hype” around the game mode, guilds create an amount of salt/animosity towards each other to create a “my reputation is on the line in this fight” environment. With some sort of official or semi-supported “raid scale” PvP mode, this type of hype could come from some sort of leaderboard or ranking system, which displays the reputation of the guild instead of them having to hype themselves up and talk trash.

I myself have participated in some of the worst unsportsmanlike trash-talk and vitriol spewing that has plagued our scene, but as you’ll notice it’s myself and (soon to be) a lot of the players I competed with and trash-talked working together to create this community drive. The scene is not necessarily toxic throughout, it is simply a product of the environment in which it was born. Every PvP and competitive game mode has some toxic aspect to it – it’s the natural human condition when competing. The community interested in “raid size” PvP is no different than any other, and given the environment, can thrive just as much (if not more) in a sportsmanlike manner. I firmly believe this is the truth.

Keep +1’ing if you guys support our idea, hopefully ArenaNet is interested in keeping an eye on this!

gennyt.3428:

Windsagio.1340:

Trajan.4953:

It really does seem like A-net is missing a huge opportunity here.

Let’s be frank though, how’s it monetize compared to its cost?

Be a bit more creative with the vanity gem shop offerings for one.

• Custom commander tag packs (stars, swords, staves, hearts, skulls, letters, class icons, numbers, whatever; switch packs like we do finishers).
• More varied armor skins (looking at you trench coats) and not just entire all or nothing “outfits”.
• Guild capes.
• Gem shop only weapon skins that can be dyed.
• Gem shop emotes.
• Some more trolly finishers (they’re getting there with the rainbow unicorn). I want to stomp someone with the fiery breath of Balthazar or a knock off carebear that hugs itself while twirling around spraying confetti and sparkles. :P

Just stuff off the top of my head.
——-
I’m certain if they added custom arena with PvE rules people would pay for them.

Bruh, I would pay gems for a commander tag that you can see over 3 name tags instead of it being hidden behind everything and impossible to spot in a fight.

But I guess layer prioritisation isnt Anets cup of tea.

+1 to this, make it happen anet.

I’ll never understand why in a game called guild wars there aren’t actual wars between guilds.

It just seems to me that the easiest option is make a 20v20 custom arena map and watch gem sales shoot straight up. Tides folks over and tests the waters to see how popular that format would be to market as an esport.

+1 either way. Good post.

I think Sabull put it very well. I know this isn’t exactly what he said but if I could pay $50 a month to be able to play on the same exact WvWvW maps that were instanced to fight pre determined 20-30 member guilds for a week, then another set of guilds the next week and so on. In a round robin type format where you are for sure going to have the chance to fight every guild in a given month I would be throwing my money at you. Maybe even have some form of influence tax on the guild as well to make sure there are no troll guilds made.

As for the effect on the current WvWvW structure. I don’t think that any hardcore WvW player would tell you it’s healthy. Especially here in NA. Why not make changes to the current server system at the same time that a “Guild Instanced WvW play” is rolled out.

Edit: Spelling.

Sabull.5670:

It was born to make WvWvW BETTER!

+1, hope we will get GvG mode someday

+1 ofcourse.

It’s a great idea, and it’s been a yearly kinda thing where things are itching, scenes are kinda dying out again and people are eager to get the adrenaline rush of seeing certain tags on the map and knowing you’re about to get into insane fights. This feeling is something that does not need Developers moderation. My opinion is that Anet could have done more to support the organized raid sized groups rather than promoting blobbing, but the real GvG feeling is something that the developers can’t boost, it’s the GvG community really.

I will bring up my negative comments first before I get into the constructive critism part. A competetive scene is created together, with guilds putting time and effort into getting better for the sole purpose of being recognized as the best guild around. Acknowledgement of Anet could boost this consent to get good, but will it revive the scene? It’s not a new game anymore, WvW maps will be changed into PPT/ defensive objective hugging environments and the revenant hype will die down sooner or later. I doubt Esports, tournaments and leaderboards are a good idea for the GvG scene. Like someone mentioned earlier, GvG was a gamemode designed to escape the harsh reality called WvW. Whenever Anet drops the idea of turning WvW into a huge Point Per Tick environment and actually adds elements ( without outside-combat mechanics ) which encourage fighting, the scene will more likely revive than having eSport hype train coming over ( something that will never happen because GvG’s are too complicated to turn into eSports ).

Constructive critism part. This gamemode could use know acknowledgement to have more people introducted into GvG’s, I definately agree on this part. I bet that the playerbase will grow as more outsiders, people who do not play Guild Wars 2, are introduced to this competetive community.

The biggest and most important thing that alot of people forget though is that there’s actually a bigger GvG community as most people realize. The players who have posted in this thread are 99% / 100% from (ex) top guilds, but there’s so many more guilds out there than people recognize and hype. The only problem that this community has, is that the newer/less experienced guilds are getting smashed if they’d try to go higher up. The difference between top tier GvG scene and the other tier(s) of the scene are too big. They’re going through evolution the majority of us posting here gone through 2 years ago. The only way to close this gap quicker would be publicing and ecouraging more informative posts. Most veteran GvG players will mention synergy, coordination and communication to be the key part of their success, but we forget that the lower tier GvG guilds are still figuring out builds and trying traits that we flagged off 2 years ago.

TL;DR – A more open communication and cohersion between top- and lower tier GvG guilds would boost the community up.

I’m all up for what people posted here, but this is the most important thing to improve our scene. The only way to fix our ‘’dying out scenes’’ is getting more competition going. Top players and top guilds will have to ‘sacrifice’ and bleed out a little to give the current smaller/less experienced guilds a chance to build more experience.

I’d also like to touch the fairweather part that has became a huge thing in the GvG scene. Alot of guilds will not challenge a bigger/established guild to GvG because ‘’they know they will lose’‘. There’s a ton of guild leaders out there claiming they want to reach the top tier, yet they avoid fighting more experienced/skilled guilds. This blows my mind. Just go out there, fight whoever you can, learn from your losses and work on them.

So many good guilds who have retired or are about to retire because ’’it’s boring, not enough competition, decease of the crown’’ type of thing. But is there really anyone putting their shoulders under this scene and trying to help lesser guilds? Something you should ask yourself. ( This is a quite loaded subject as I can also understand the players in the good guilds, I’ve kinda been there myself a little bit aswell ).

This is my 2 cents. I have not really touched the ‘’community approach towards Anet’’ subject because I believe we’re skipping important stepping stones before we can complain to Anet about our player-invented gamemode. I feel like the only part we can complain about is the way they treat the WvW borderlands, the rest is a consequence of what happened to the borderlands originally at launch/before launch and what they have planned for the borderlands in HoT.

+1, GvG support for the people!

+1
To this point, it really feels like anet has done squat for WvW compared to the community. GvG has been solely the product of the community, and many times actually in-spite of the attitude of the developers (who have been openly hostile to the GvG scene). No other guilds, players, or communities have been as involved in the success of the game more than the WvW/GvG guilds and communities. Not tPvP, not PvE, not world bosses. The amount of time, organization, and communication supplied by the community far outweighs whatever updates Anet has made. Don’t think that that troll community wvw website speaks for the state of the WvW/GvG community, IT DOESN’T, PEOPLE ONLY GO THERE TO TROLL. At this point, it almost seems like either (1) Anet (or NCsoft, whoever is pulling strings) is just ignorant, which is no longer an excuse after this thread, or (2) they’re just downright malicious and are hoping to alienate their most loyal community (as they have already done).

At this point, if any game came out that had smooth combat, open world RvR, AND closed arena BtB (10v10,15v15, 20v20), GW2 automatically loses pretty much the core of the WvW community, the community sites die, and WvW has basically no purpose.

To be clear: WvW is endgame: the purpose for farming and leveling and making builds, and getting more skilled. GvG is the pinnacle of WvW, to show who’s actually the best instead of canned builds in tPvP.

Worth pointing out that this happened the same time as the ESL stream. Which is supported and has rewards, the GvG still had more viewers. A lot of people want to see this happen when it isn’t even a supported game mode. I can only imagine how many there will be if it is supported.

MaXi.3642:

-1 for just one simple reason…

even SPvP with its 5v5 have queue time problems (sometimes even 5+ minutes), if someone really think that similar system with a 20v20 deathmatch could work, he is a dreamer…

but I wouldn’t be against an option to set the custom arena in SPvP to 20v20 so those people can do in-house battles in a private environment

You’re right, it would be very tough to get a que system on this scale to always be populated with guilds. There are ways to get a large scale que to work, but we don’t really need to rely on a queuing system.

Currently the biggest issue and reason the GvG scene has gone stale is the inability of guilds in different WvW tiers to fight each other. Being able to schedule a GvG with a guild regardless of server through an in game mechanic would do wonders for the community. This could be done with a large arena map using the existing arena infrastructure, but then you would also have a lack of build diversity due to the simplified build system in sPvP.

I’ve always enjoyed playing casual/friendly scrims. A streamlined process to have these more casual GvGs would improve my enjoyment of the game tenfold.

Sabull.5670:

2/2
Why did the WvWvW culture develop into 50+man zone blobs. Instead of 2020202020 split. This is a subject of what ifs for the beta days.
What Anet failed to do (didn’t want to) was to incentivise a static raid sizes and focus on guilds. There are multiple small things there could have been to start of the evolution of WvW to the right direction, like (at launch), the WvW became runaway arms race with numbers (10 man cannot kill the guild, guild cannot kill the blob, megaguild becomes 30+ and kills the blob, guild cannot kill the megaguild) (first blob guilds and blobs (50+) were national guilds and server). This has since toned down, the time of megaguilds is dead (actual good guilds running regular 30+), and amount of static king of ruins fights have increased because killing a full zone blob is very difficult with 20-25 compared to 35.

Private commander tags, colored tags, commander guild tag on map, maximum squad size and a reason to join it (master calls, alert or something, commander skills), guild size has to be upgraded for larger, guild banner you can carry, guild tabard, guild halls, guild banner shown in LA if you the king, these are just things with “commander” and “guild” in them there is plenty more from mechanics, map layout blablabla and so on.
OS with 20v20 showmatches “supported” (aknowledged, encouraged) by Anet at and after launch, w/e (so people know 20 is your goal, not 35).
Big part of the 20 man ideology (24) was born from WAR because that was our idea of WvW, without this influence WvW would be a mess.

So… The moment I see someone mention e-sports and money with GvG I cry of anger and frustration because simply that is not possible even in the wildest dreams so don’t even mention that (cmon).
Then people mention que systems with supported tournaments, I cry out of sadness – the WvW culture could be different and we wouldn’t have to be thinking about these things. I think of practicalities and it is not really possible because takeing away GvG guilds from WvW means death of WvW and the people in these guilds want both spontanious openfield fighting and controlled GvGs, not just latter! Aka not possible or good for the guilds nor WvW.
If people ever pick up on the core issues of " WvW should be different so we wouldn’t need GvG" or how Anet should have and should design new maps (EotM), guild&commander changes and all changes to guide and push the culture to be guild centered not random community blob centered. I jump of joy and I don’t have to do these posts.

TLDR

hide spoiler

TLDR:
GvG was born because WvW should be more like “GvG” (equal numbers, 20man guild centered). GvG was not born and does not work for esports, money, queing systems because of … practicalities. Please do not talk about such.

More work should have been done by Anet to guide the WvW culture toward 20/20/20/20/20 man guild split in a maxed zone instead of 50/30/—, and fighter guilds are forced to have static king of hill fights with each other every day instead of spontanious fair fights.

GvG community should have more faith and courage to create new guilds, train new players ( if you need help trying to train up your lowly guild sure gimme a tell ) and encourage more players to play like we do and think like we do.
Anet should design new changes and maps to encourage the general meta to be more like multiple gvgs all around the map rather than a single blob.

More “gvg” -> Less skill lag, more FPS

This makes way more sense than having queues similar to PvP.

+1 in general.

I want it all: sanctioned GvG arena/mode, and Sabull’s WvW vision.

One particularly useful tool for managing groups of 10-20 players would be the ability to make a tag/squad private, such that only those in the squad can actually see the tag (on the map or in the fray).

Best thread in years. Organized, interesting, constructive and well informed. I don’t do very much PvP(too small) or WvW(too big). If this becomes more common, I’m sure I’ll participate.