Guild Wars 2

I posted this in a thread in the Thief forums, but Ill give it a spot here as well.

I would like to say first off that the MAJORITY of the complaints about the thief class are an issue of not understanding even a minuscule amount about thief, as in not even testing it themselves in spvp, wvwvw and pve. Anet has made it very clear with their patches that they are not going to separate nerfs/buffs from PVE, PVP and w3. I do not want to use the “l2p” wording because there is a generation that likes to throw around statements like “l2p”, and “QQ”, and all it really shows is a lack of maturity on their side even if the person they are responding to is showing a lack of intelligence, or maturity as well.

In most other games, the rogue/thief/assassin class has always been one of the most difficult to balance (giving devs credit), because of perma stealth. The issue here is that since they decided not to go that route, they took the wrong direction in a lot of other areas when pertaining to the class. To put it simply, if you are going to create a class like this, you either have to build it with perma stealth and around the fact it is a stealth heavy class…. OR you have to build it around being out of stealth and easily engaged with stealth only as a fluff mechanic.

Well they built the thief around having stealth as mostly a fluff mechanic, but did not really build them, as a class, around being easily engaged(like why have positional AND stealth requirements ). This is why you see an uprising of player builds revolving around the hardest hitting ability in their arsenal and most likely ways to spam it.

With some of the bugs the class has being fixed I think the following changes would make the class feel more like what Anet was advertising them to be from the get go.

=====
—Backstab is renamed to Assassinate.
Base damage: 550
No longer has any positional requirements
(from 403 front, 806 back)

—Pistol Whip damage reduced by 30%, Self root has been removed, Stun has been replaced with a 1s daze.

—Animation speed(+channel speed) for Pistol whip, Slice, Slash, and Crippling strike have been quickened by roughly 25%.

—The ability Haste now only applies quickness for the next ability used (1 application) and gives the thief to cause 3 random conditions on the target with the next single ability as well. Cooldown and endurence modifications remain the same.

— Tactical strike now applies the blind and daze without positional requirement.

— Flanking strike now performs an evade and Shadowsteps behind the target.

— Vital shot animation/attack repetition speed quickened by 20%

— Black Powder now applies the smoke cloud around the target not the caster. Smoke cloud radius increased by 25%

—Cloak and Dagger range increased to 200

— Shadow return has been added to the Steal mechanic. Has it’s own icon and takes it’s place next to steal as F2. Ability is greyed out and only able to be activated after steal is used. (this is to give some fluidity to ranged builds)

Now keep in mind, these changes are with spvp, wvwvw, and PVE in mind. Testing a class out in spvp no longer suffices for making change/nerf requests since changes have been sweeping, effecting all aspects.

(Yes I have an 80 thief)

+1, very good post.

i swear to god if you take all my burst away as dagger mainhand (HS then BS) ill quit this game, find you, and throw my copy at you while shouting (I DISAGREE)

then i will come back here…and cry.

“—Pistol Whip damage reduced by 30%, Self root has been removed, Stun has been replaced with a 1s daze.”

15% at max. Because the burst is still warranted for the weapon set. Daze is fine. Smart use of the skill would allow it to still function as an interrupt.

“— Flanking strike now performs an evade and Shadowsteps behind the target.”

They need to make some type of change, for sure. At least, alter the animation so that it doesn’t turn the player to their target’s front if they they are already behind them.

“— Shadow return has been added to the Steal mechanic. Has it’s own icon and takes it’s place next to steal as F2. Ability is greyed out and only able to be activated after steal is used.”

With the potential caveat that it should be under consideration if this Shadow Return should purge conditions. If it does, it’s still okay because it’d be on a CD but it might make skills like the actual Shadowstep utility or Infiltrator’s Strike not as useful.

I’d add to this list either some path fixing to Infiltrator’s Arrow or a minor range increase. Not sure which.

The backstab change is not really a nerf, think about it. Now even non stealth builds can use it more reliably, whilst still keeping the viability of stealth builds because you have more time to keep an eye on any other situation occurring on the screen, and not be a 1 hit wonder with just backstab. It would no longer require positioning for maximum potential, even if the maximum potential is reduced somewhat allowing for more fluidity.

As for the Pistol Whip damage reduction of 30%, I do admit I threw that out there, but if you can picture how much of a change removing the self root is, along with quicker attack/animation times for ALL sword abilities, really I believe even 30% would go hardly noticed. You can still use the ability multiple times in succession, it would actually fit into our “mobility” class design, and again less dependency on 1 hit wonder attachments like Haste/immob.

I think the thief class needs to have EVERYTHING in it’s arsenal to fit around the Mobility aspect Anet claimed since the beginning thief was designed around.
I know I am not the only one who was a little confused even in BWE why there are such lacking talents for thief that increase movement speed (like eles have) but eles are a tough nut to crack and I don’t think it would even be the least bit fair to them at this current state (2s swiftness on evade is really nothing once you think about it, and 33% faster in stealth is a joke for requiring the fluff mechanic that is stealth)

(I have only played ele in spvp and did really well but have not yet tried pve or wvwvw)

So I figure stick with our guns here and I’d figure that suggesting changes that are (imo) a priority is a better idea.

please don’t change black powder to under target, i wouldn’t like that. Radius increase is cool with me!

sweeping changes are never going to happen. That’s why they are slightly changing balance by small amounts to maybe 1 skill at a time.

Black powder becoming an TAOE rather then PBAOE (Point Blank) is actually a Quality of life adjustment. You are probably just used to playing only melee builds. But say a Pistol/Pistol build needs that kind of synergy even if its only 500-900 range. Even with a melee build, I do not see how this would be at all detrimental to you being changed to a TAOE. It will be on the target you are attacking, it will still be a combo field, but now you can take advantage of the field much easier, with the radius increase if you are right up on the target, you won’t even notice a difference.

The changes so far are sweeping. They did not ONLY effect classes while in mists, or while in PVE zones, or only while in wvwvw. They effected the classes across the board in all aspects of the game.

Take everything I am about to say with a grain of salt, as I have only briefly played a thief and do not fully understand their mechanics. /disclaimer

I disagree that your sword attacks should be faster. Here’s why: Sword is a bulkier form of a dagger, for most intents and purposes. So it should be a bit slower, and hopefully a bit heavier hitting. I think it’s good that weapons have a distinct flavor. However, I do think that removing the self root from Pistol Whip would be good, as well as removing the opponent root (stun is a type of root) and changing it to a daze. I’d agree that reducing the damage by 30% might be a bit much, simply because, as mentioned earlier, I think that sword should hit a bit harder than dagger, in a general attack damage way.

As far as changing the backstab mechanics, I propose that instead of giving it baseline damage and removing all potential extra damage, make it so attacking from stealth (in ANY position) also grants the bonus. This would allow for more flexibility in gaining that extra damage, so that it would work better with more builds.

I honestly have never used Haste (maybe I’m a horrible thief. Read the disclaimer. xD) but I don’t think changing it the way you suggested is a good idea. I think that would make thief even MORE of a one trick pony with the backstabby stuff.

Lastly, I don’t agree that steal should allow a shadow return option. As someone mentioned it would really kitten the other shadow return abilities. I think that there are enough awesome ways to buff up your steal mechanic that it doesn’t necessarily need any more baseline bonuses.

Other than that, I would support all the changes suggested.

Temariah.9372:

Take everything I am about to say with a grain of salt, as I have only briefly played a thief and do not fully understand their mechanics. /disclaimer

I disagree that your sword attacks should be faster. Here’s why: Sword is a bulkier form of a dagger, for most intents and purposes. So it should be a bit slower, and hopefully a bit heavier hitting. I think it’s good that weapons have a distinct flavor. However, I do think that removing the self root from Pistol Whip would be good, as well as removing the opponent root (stun is a type of root) and changing it to a daze. I’d agree that reducing the damage by 30% might be a bit much, simply because, as mentioned earlier, I think that sword should hit a bit harder than dagger, in a general attack damage way.

As far as changing the backstab mechanics, I propose that instead of giving it baseline damage and removing all potential extra damage, make it so attacking from stealth (in ANY position) also grants the bonus. This would allow for more flexibility in gaining that extra damage, so that it would work better with more builds.

I honestly have never used Haste (maybe I’m a horrible thief. Read the disclaimer. xD) but I don’t think changing it the way you suggested is a good idea. I think that would make thief even MORE of a one trick pony with the backstabby stuff.

Lastly, I don’t agree that steal should allow a shadow return option. As someone mentioned it would really kitten the other shadow return abilities. I think that there are enough awesome ways to buff up your steal mechanic that it doesn’t necessarily need any more baseline bonuses.

Other than that, I would support all the changes suggested.

As haste works right now it doesn’t really effect the backstab builds. It is the pistol whip firstly, and heartseeker secondly (builds). Right now, for 4 seconds it allows them to basically use a hard hitting ability around 2- 3 times in the time it would normally take do complete 1. This is the root cause for a lot of complaining and that is the root cause for multiple 1-hit wonder builds.

By making it only cause this speed adjustment on 1 ability, it still gives the potential for getting 1 hard hitting attack of fast but not multiple. It also adds some random conditions as a bonus so this ability would now be a possible choice in a condition build.

As for the baseline speed change on all sword abilities, dagger would still be faster so it keeps to the same idea we both share.

As for the steal addition, currently steal being our class mechanic, is useless to any player wanting to build around ranged only (pistol/pistol/shortbow etc) as it just puts them right into chopping range for the enemy. With a shadow return attached to it this now makes it useable in those builds.

As well, thank you for being honest about your experience with playing a thief. Appreciated.

Xaia.2304:

Yeah, plz more nerf thief. Please learn how to counter class and start posting after that. Thief is the most squishy gw2 class. 14k HP and weak toughness. He have to be deadly like assassin. More nerf will destroy this class.

It’s strange but my thief is able to beat almost every thief on my way. My guardian beats every thief on my way.

Why ppl don’t cry about mesmers and guardians which can win every tournament.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and just ask you to RE-read the entire thread. Everything you just mentioned has been covered, they aren’t really nerfs (some are actually buffs) and some of the numbers I admitted to throwing out there.

Noone here is crying. Please don’t join the “QQ”/“L2P” bandwagon generation as it is only demeaning to yourself.

Xaia.2304:

Yeah, plz more nerf thief. Please learn how to counter class and start posting after that. Thief is the most squishy gw2 class. 14k HP and weak toughness. He have to be deadly like assassin. More nerf will destroy this class.

It’s strange but my thief is able to beat almost every thief on my way. My guardian beats every thief on my way.

Why ppl don’t cry about mesmers and guardians which can win every tournament.

Thief is not most squishy class in game…

I actually loved just about everyone of those suggestions.

The shadow return on steal is something I’ve always thought should be there as well.

i LIKE the positioning, why does everyone want to dumb down the skills?

thief isnt the most squishy calss yes, but it is one of hte most squishy.

It isn’t dumbing it down. It simply doesn’t fit. Why have positioning attacks without perma stealth or all shadowstep abilities teleporting us behind the target.

Having talents that add damage or crit based off positioning is fine, but the base line potential of an ability is not. What may work in “insert MMO here” does not mean it will work in GW2

Those are some bad changes, it all started when you said stealth was a fluff mechanic.

Knyx, there is no QQ/L2P “bandwagon”. Sadly, it is a necessity with the complaints on this board to stand up for the difference between “balance” and “easy to play” so that players who are casual PvPers or ex-WoW players don’t complain so much they vicariously nerf some classes into mediocrity based on their ill-conceived concepts of what needs to be done to fix the PvP structure. It’s not a bandwagon at this point, it’s a necessary counter in a desperate attempt to save something that is headed in the right direction.

Stealth is a fluff mechanic. It only lasts a few seconds even when traited heavily for.

Also, there is a bandwagon. It is only necessity in the eyes of the band-wagoners who actually believe what they are doing is the only way to proceed. It is this exact fundamental thinking that only occurs in the very young (most of the time). If your age permits you to be immature that is one thing, but personally I find an adult acting like a child much, much worse (unless it is a diagnosed disorder ofc). It is also this exact way of thinking, that causes people to be defensive about their severely constricted 1-hit wonder playstyle since it matches their mindset.

Sharpclaw.7510:

“— Flanking strike now performs an evade and Shadowsteps behind the target.”

They need to make some type of change, for sure. At least, alter the animation so that it doesn’t turn the player to their target’s front if they they are already behind them.

^+1

Sword Dagger is such a pathetic combination for thief in PvP when considering flanking strike, the big combo skill. Effective evasively, but not in the damage spectrum. Rarely does it ever land you behind or beside your foe, especially if they are moving, even without swiftness, chance are you won’t even land the first hit of two … just seem to move in a really awkward way that’s at best, unpredictable.

I agree with OP about the stealth being a fluff mechanic, yet even so, it requires positional prerequisites to fully utilize stealth skills (save for shortbow and pistol mainhand) like backstab … you do either 50% or 100% of the damage IF you can get behind your target. Even if you trait 15 into Shadow Arts, and 10 into Acrobatics for the increased stealth duration & movement speed increase while in stealth, it’s really difficult to get behind your target for a melee attack thanks to the short duration of stealth.

Shadow Refuge can be good thanks to how long you can stay hidden within it, but you’re still limited to a radius, and even then that can be difficult. Then finally you also have to deal with latency issues. I mean this in the sense that, it definitely seems as though I’m behind my target, and it does half the damage I’m hoping for … it just seems really difficult to fully utilize backstab, as well as the sword’s stealth daze because of the design of the game currently.

More positional problems similar to this; being in shadow refuge & hidden, clearly behind another thief using pistol whip, and I get hit by the full duration of their pistol whip even though they did not land the initial stun and are not even facing me. I’ve had the same happen with mesmers. There really is a lot that needs polishing, and thieves are among those things. They really don’t seem overpowered … perhaps cheesy / gimmicky burst yes … but overpowered no. They’re just hard to deal with when you haven’t much experience with them.

If I was going to cry OP, I’d ramble about Elementalists and their insane might boon stacking & infinite uptime of fury / vigor just by fighting, stacked with their CC and then high damage thanks to insane boons (seriously, self buffed of 20 stacks of might lasting over half a minute each -while fighting- easily possible) … but that’s going to be for a different thread and I won’t carry on about it beyond this point.

Another thing that really drives me up the wall as thief is ranged channeled abilities. I stealth right as someone activates a channeled skill on me. Can’t see me, but they’re locked on doing full damage of the channeled skill regardless. It’s one thing for a melee skill in which you’re rooted in place swinging, that’s fine. But to be far away and 100% accurately hitting a target you cannot see is bogus.

To add to this, there are the pet’s AI. I’ve heard a lot of arguments about how pets play the class for players, most specifically mesmers. I don’t really agree with this, until it comes to stealth / unstealthing. Pets react inhumanly fast to someone coming out of stealth. What REALLY pushes this issue for me is when you stealthed mid combat, repositioned to be out of sight or well hidden, perhaps to wait for a CD / another heal you really need to keep pushing the battle … and the pets simply auto target / lead the way to you. In such a case, pets really DO play FOR the player … the player has no idea where you are, until the AI locates and destroys you for them.

I think a simple fix for that would be for pets to only start attacking when you target / start using attack commands on the player … not instantaneous attacks that are indeed inhumanly fast. ’Cause that =/= competitive IMO.

bad idea killing a necro with over 40k hp would be impossible if they made those changes.

@knyx, no dude, stealth isnt af luf mechanic, it was a fluf mechanic in the other games where it was only useable out of combat and didnt have a duration.

in this game its meant to be used to mitigate damage and to gain positioning.

also, again, just cuz we cant blinik behind the target or anythign doesnt mean backstabs positional requirement is bad. again, just cuz you add a ability to instantly port us behind the target, is still dumbing down the class (no longer needing to jockey for position for a backstab).

you want to know why it fits and why we have it? cuz its risk vs freaking reward, you try to get in for that high damage backstab, instead of having it be granted to you.

you can view it any way you want my friend, but in the end it IS dumbing down the strategy.

i dont have such an issue landing backstabs, i suggest you mess with your trait setup if you do.

Black Powder is fine as it is