Guild Wars 2

DaliIndica.9041:

I don’t see how its up to the community to fix all the broken promises that ANet have made

Because, quite obviously, Anet can’t.

DaliIndica.9041:

This PVP crowd is rich for the taking, and no one is really trying to take hold of the situation outside of the MOBA market, and that will crash soon enough. Just like every other fad that came before it.

That is literally the only reason GW2 still has people PvP’ing in it.

Community has a large say in whether a game will become anything remotely “esports” or not. LoL would be nothing like it is today if it were not for TSM, CLG, and similar organizations/players.

KITTEN NOOO…. if you used LoL as your base for this discussion. Yes it helped them take off and riot from there supported the “Pro” players more then the ppl that got them there. Then the community just puked all over itself with kittenS that will blab META all day long. And if your not part of the current meta you suck and need to quit. If you have played LoL you know what im talking about. so if you want GW2 to turn into this then i say go jump off a bridge now so we can save everyone the hassle of “competitive” play. im not here to pay some kids that have no life to play a game for there own gains…

skwca.7024:

KITTEN NOOO…. if you used LoL as your base for this discussion. Yes it helped them take off and riot from there supported the “Pro” players more then the ppl that got them there. Then the community just puked all over itself with kittenS that will blab META all day long. And if your not part of the current meta you suck and need to quit. If you have played LoL you know what im talking about. so if you want GW2 to turn into this then i say go jump off a bridge now so we can save everyone the hassle of “competitive” play. im not here to pay some kids that have no life to play a game for there own gains…

Sounds like you tried to play Maokai adc and got mad when someone told you its terrible.

Bhawb.7408:

Sounds like you tried to play Maokai adc and got mad when someone told you its terrible.

^ proves my point.

Not at all in fact i made it to gold status solo in that kittening game. my fav hero was in fact hiemer. and before you go off yelling META again i have to say i ran a 70% win rate with over 500 ranked matches with him..
again thanks for proving my point that the community was kitten.

A great start would be to have all the basics down. fix all the broken runes/sigils and re-write the description to do what they actually do.

for example:
Rune of the Vampire #4 effect will be lost if you die, and will only work again by re-equiping the armor or by logging.

Rune of Greth chill duration is actually 1/2s

Rune of Lyssa will not work with any elite that doesnt affect the player directly ( creating minion, supply create,etc )

Game caters to casuals+Healer class removed

sPvP:
Resulting in downed state that favors bad players

OP classes that have it all. Stealth class with infinite stealth during combat without being popped out of stealth? yes plz..Mesmer class that has way too many get out of jail cards? yes plz..Guardian class that can tank 3 people? Yes plz..can you say: New holy trinity?

Boring sPvP due to lack of group synergy due to lack of healers. Every person is doing her or his own thing.

Game caters to casuals/pvers+Healer class removed+AOE limit in WvW+lack of unique useful wvw rewards:
Zerg fest with rewards going to the higher numbers in wvw thus making people leave the game due to the boring nature of wvw. All the initial big WvW guilds left because they reached that conclusion before the rest of the populace started catching on.

PVE:
Not challenging at all. No group synergy. Boring repeated dungeon grind spread out over days to milk the players time.
Only good thing is you don’t have to wait on a healer for a dungeon anymore. The bad things are the ones listed above as a result.

The reasons for the boring and imbalanced pvp in spvp or wvw are obvious but they won’t be corrected because they are too hard for the current dev team to reverse.

Boring combat on boring maps. Goodluck getting something decent started. I will admit that spvp has gained a bit of steam lately, but that’s mostly because anet kitten wvw.

Tundera.7956:

For those of you who played guild wars 1 on release, I was in a guild called The Morning After. For a brief time we were rank 1 in the beginning of GvG taking down the likes of Esotaric, Frost etc. I gotta say Guild Wars 1 GvG was the most incredible gaming experience I’ve ever had, and for a competitive gamer that’s saying a lot. I know GW2 is in kind of a slump right now, but I want to get the ball rolling for a competitive scene. It’s not enough to expect Arena Net to do something about it.

A great example is League of Legends and Riot Games. Riot was a tiny company that created a MOBA that people started to enjoy. The PLAYERS started forming tournaments, leagues, ladders, etc. Solo Mid was the new place for players to go for competitive League of Legends advice, guides and tutorials. Riot saw this, saw the viewer numbers and went crazy, eventually forming league seasons, the LCS, Worlds and now sponsored salary pro-gamers. The thing that sets League of Legends apart from a normal e-sports game is the accessibility. You can download the game for free, and boom, you get to jump right in.

This is where Guild Wars 2 shines as well. Aside from the cost of the game, you get to jump RIGHT into the action in any pvp you want, and play and learn and be competitive. With Guild Wars 2 having that kind of accessibility, I see huge potential for a competitive scene. The problem I see right now is the casting of tournaments, and lack of prize pools. It takes people to step up to do this sort of thing. People don’t want to watch tournaments cast by people who don’t know spell names, or who cant use the camera properly.

On the other side of it, the way that Guild Wars 2 works is hard to cast for, so I think for future player-held tournaments, we really need point cameras on the streams, so that you can see all 3 points on the stream plus whatever action is going on. Then, the casters would have an easier time seeing whats going on and commentating as such.

I want to get the ball rolling because GW1 was such a huge step in the right direction for team-oriented competitive MMO PvP, I want to see GW2 flourish. I need a few like-minded people to get things going. High-level people who can start streaming, taking donations and using the donations to fund properly held tournaments. GW2 isn’t going to take off if the viewers aren’t as passionate about it as the players are, and you don’t get that without solid streams and casters. So if you’re interested in helping me set up what I think could be a pretty big thing let me know! Get a hold of me, reply here and lets get things started.

On the other side, lets get a discussion going. Why do you think GW2 hasn’t taken off? Give me some ideas so we can set it up the right way.

Individual scoring – two words and a concept that Anet isn’t getting.

When I go into a tournament I am not with others who are “as good” or “as bad” as I am – I can’t get better because there is no way to practice for a tournament beforehand and the people inside, far too many of them, stand around or half-heartedly play and even bemoan the lack of thieves and the “over powered” or “clueless” Ranger – and that even two in a group is one too many.

A chance to play with people who are just as passionate and who will communicate isn’t happening except for that one in a hundred or more games – and believe me, you can tell the difference.

Another problem that Anet won’t listen to is the fact that the life pools for spvp are FAR too small and players NOT npc’s die FAR too easily and can be mobbed far too quickly. There has to be a different “thought” for spvp – raising the life pool and then using lockouts that can be seen by all players to know “hey you’re not doing anything go do something else” – is just a necessity in pvp.

I hope we do have some tournaments not only for the fastest, best players but also for handicapped players – this game has universal appeal – we need to start rewarding players who are good.

alcopaul.2156:

Watching GW1 PvP this days after 8 years, is like still using your Nokia 5110 as your cell phone this time of the year. The game mechanics is old. it is not dynamic. it’s point and click. And the CCs are archaic. They say it’s complicated but i don’t see the complication. Maybe it’s just rigid, well it’s rigid because everything is rigid. Yeah you dshotted or powerblocked infuse health. Sure your skilled. But you’re indeed skilled if you did this on a dialup connection.

It is nothing like that at all. The combat mechanics and the way the game is designed is eternities ahead of any MOBA. HoN, DotA, LoL are the only things that come remotely close to it. The game is old, the mechanics are not. The game is not point in click. You don’t see the complication because you never played the game at a high level. The way you describe integration between dshot/powerblock and infuse health doesn’t define skill. You can’t reflex interupting infuse. The game has much more than that and that is why more people still play GW1 PvP than GW2 s/tPvP.

alcopaul.2156:

I’m the one of the many (i hope) that appreciates the more dynamic and more tactical gameplay of GW2. And this is coming from someone who don’t play tPvP. I watched Team Paradigm and the shoutcasts and I appreciated their skill level and the skill level of their enemies even. it’s fast paced. unpredictable. And concise. No kittenty things such as tie breaker or killing an NPC to win. It’s easy to watch. Easy to follow. Just like every other sports but scrabble. Moreover, The game doesn’t depend on killing an NPC.

You are in the minority. If that copy cat guild can ever be a successful GW1 guild, I’ll give them props. GW2 is no more concise than GW1. In fact, I’d say it is less concise as you need 8 coordinated players as opposed to just 5. To kill an NPC in GW1 you have to outplay your opponent. It isn’t PvE. And the game makes much more sense and is more thrilling than any GW2 play so far.

Again you are showing that you are really unfamiliar with high level play in GW1.

Note – Team Paradigm took their name from a GvG guild that I ran back in GW1 in 2008. Still never understood their fanaticism with my guild.

alcopaul.2156:

I’ve played my share of GW1 gvgs and most of the time we won even at 60 dp because we kittening killed an NPC.

r2000 GvGs don’t count. Again you are showing that you are really unfamiliar with high level play in GW1.

alcopaul.2156:

But one thing that made GW1 GvG a poignant mark on my gaming memory. War Machine [WM] versus Lamer’s Ultimate Majority [LuM]. Everyother matches don’t even compare.

These were good matches. Sadly it occured a little bit before I started PvP.

Everything coming out of your mouth is from that of someone who was never an exceptional player at Guild Wars 1 PvP. I am not trying to be insulting or rude by repeating that statement to you – It is my assessment based on your statements. Your argument isn’t strong and has a ton of inaccuracies and a lot of opinions based on your lack of understanding of GW1 and your opinion that you think you understand GW2 PvP at the apex of its competitive performance.

That pretty much discredit’s your entire argument.

Motoko verse alcopaul…

A good example of the differences in people the two games attract.

The recent tournies are only getting somewhat decent viewership because its new and people have been waiting for 8+ months.

Once there has been 10 or so tournamnts it will begin to die down, especially once the meager prizes dry up.

There is no way Guru or whoever is going to keep throwing 500 bucks or whatever every month for tournies that can’t even get 2000 viewers.

Motoko.2875:

Note – Team Paradigm took their name from a GvG guild that I ran back in GW1 in 2008. Still never understood their fanaticism with my guild.

alcopaul.2156:

I’ve played my share of GW1 gvgs and most of the time we won even at 60 dp because we kittening killed an NPC.

r2000 GvGs don’t count. Again you are showing that you are really unfamiliar with high level play in GW1.

alcopaul.2156:

But one thing that made GW1 GvG a poignant mark on my gaming memory. War Machine [WM] versus Lamer’s Ultimate Majority [LuM]. Everyother matches don’t even compare.

These were good matches. Sadly it occured a little bit before I started PvP.

But sorry, IWAY GvG pretty much at its peak before you started PvP.

[MATH] was placing at r30s at its peak. (http://www.gw-memorial.net/builds/teams/2005/51/ [notice). We were forcing a Tombs build to work in GvG settings. Sweetie Animal Girl [cute], which is also an exclusively IWAY GvG guild, perfected its tactics, composed of better players, few from MATH, skyrocketed and peaked at r3 basically facerolling everyone, even iQ but a few of the Koreans, .

Yeah, we’re competing against the early birds – fast learners and skilled players. MATH started GvGing about late November ‘05, coz we wanted not only for people to see the guildname in the the status (which at one point had the NA, Eu and Asia coverage) but also in guild ladder. For sure, we’re not facing r2000s.

INFO: The Taiwanese team that EviL faced when the GWWC was held in Taiwan ran IWAY, one of them was from MATH too.

I would give it to you that the game evolved since 2005. And you’ve been in the scene longer and had quality matches. But fact is fact. looks like I started PvPing longer than you do and had the chance to vs Korean teams. Yeah, we VSed the early waves of Koreans, which are getting our kitten handed into us, basically the top players when most of post 2005 players were starting to get the hang of it and the only Euro players that are good are Esoteric Warriors and the Valandor.

Motoko.2875:

You are in the minority. If that copy cat guild can ever be a successful GW1 guild, I’ll give them props.

We were notorious at one point, farming rank like Chinese farmers till Izzy decide to say, “stahp it” when [cute] facerolled everyone to r3. (but it didn’t deter IWAY players.[cute] disbanded when it was nerfed but it was still played post nerf in GvG by our guild until we started to feel frustrated until we tried balanced but we failed lol. but it was still played in ‘08-’09 exclusively in HoH(MATH Reloaded) coz they wanted Phoenix or possibly a dragon idk)

and look

http://www.guildwars.com/community/guildweek/gotw-2006-10-17-yourmathteacher.php

(we were pushing this GoTW since December ‘05-January ’06 because that was the time when the guild was so hot. And I received a response 8-9 months after requesting info from us from A.NET that we will be featured. This was months and months after GvG
IWAY was nerfed. We wondered. Maybe we made an impact? Prolly. Mind you, they even hired a technical writer to feature us lol.)
they don’t give Guild of the Week anymore. So it’s technically rarer than a gold trim.

this is the old interview of the Chill is Cute from [cute] when he was still in MATH
http://gwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Columns.Detail&id=52 (you have to copy paste from text coz ampersand will resolve to “amp”)

he formed [cute] with 2 MATH members, few from VIKI and few from Prav. [idk if those guilds ring a tune to you since you started later]

Sorry if I’m sounding like a Vietnam veteran sharing our exploits to an Iraq war veteran but I’m just setting it straight that we didn’t faced r2000 guilds, that we were notorious and our name still ring a tune in guild wars 1 circles (of course you would here negative feed backs but that’s what we were used to get even when were starting so were used to that.)

Props to all who shamelessly carried the MATH tag [Your Math Teacher, Your Math Teachers, Your Math Teachers Reloaded, Your Math Professor] members where ever you are.

Don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t aware of you being a MATH player from back in the day – And I respect the accomplishments of that guild with a gimmick and being a noted guild back in the day for just that. I am partially jealous for not having the connections to start PvP earlier than I did. I’ve had my fair share of gold trims and earned my phoenix but they don’t satisfy my desire for the early days of GW1 PvP at all.

Back on topic – It seems your affiliation with an IWAY gimmick and lack of success with anything balance or truly skill based – It supports my original claim that you never fully excelled at a high level in the skillful play portion of the game – Which is a large portion for understanding the excitement GW1 still has.

If MATH was a gold trim contender it would be a different story – But we all know how that turned out :P

Motoko.2875:

Back on topic – It seems your affiliation with an IWAY gimmick and lack of success with anything balance or truly skill based – It supports my original claim that you never fully excelled at a high level in the skillful play portion of the game -

We were a gimmick guild, farming rank and forcing a Tombs build into GvG play. We just wanted to see our guild name in status all the time and to see our guild in higher ranks of the GvG ladder. That’s all. We don’t care and gauge skill levels of our players by the inch as long as you’re delivering results. Sure we wanted to win. But we were pwned by Izzy. You cannot evolve your tactics if you are halted preemptively. Balanced play require different set of skill to master and the game balancer wanted balanced play to exist longer. But in our guild, we were trying to still discover how to beat the good teams with IWAY. We beat some. Lost some too because we were trying to face them in flagstand and we’re fielding Tombs team who are used in Underworld matches. Flagstand matches and splits usually get us coz in IWAY you need to be in full team. But [cute] perfected it, ignoring flagstand battles and using massive offense to wipe guild lord enemy defense splits and to go directly for the guild lord, for the aim is to kill the guild lord.

And our build got nerfed?

How do you evolve from something that is made inferior? You auto-lose. iway was glass cannon and if you made the offense as strong as balance’s offense, then the balanced will have an advantage – damage mitigation. IWAY has almost no damage mitigation. It was not an even match. IWAY had its time. It had potential. Izzy was impatient. He finally nerfed it because the older batches in your circle were crying and they were in also in Izzy’s close circle of feedback-ers.

But yeah, ill give you that some of us stopped basically when IWAY was nerfed. (But for sure many ex-members evolved and joined post ‘06 guilds). We were one trick ponies but we’re still discovering grand ways on how to play the build in GvG till [cute] optimized it. But I’m sure you would not say that if the build was not totally killed or people started developing counters by themselves and not relying to the balancer’s nerf bat. The situation will be different.

It was nerfed because it required very little skill in relation to success compared to a balanced guild being successful with a much higher level of skill.

You should know by now that is the rule of balancing. If everyone mastered IWAY and that is all that was played and all that won – How much fun would that be?

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all, just wanted to say that this is a great conversation, and we’re keeping an eye on it. I would ask, though, that we keep it on topic. We’re very interested in what could come of this, and are really excited by the prospect of the Guild Wars 2 players banding together to produce these great tournaments and shoutcasted matches.

You would have more players banding together and producing more matches if you guys actually fixed the game to be competitive and enjoyable.

If you need any good tips or advice I can give you a link to Guild Wars 1 GvG.

You could also log on for the Monthly Tournaments to get a feel for some fun.

Even though the game is 8 years old and evolved – It is still more enjoyable than GW2 PvP.

Motoko.2875:

It was nerfed because it required very little skill in relation to success compared to a balanced guild being successful with a much higher level of skill.

You should know by now that is the rule of balancing. If everyone mastered IWAY and that is all that was played and all that won – How much fun would that be?

I guess more fun because almost anyone can run it. but tactics will evolve from it for sure. and it will evolve to somewhat what WM has run vs LuM “4 warriors, 2 rangers, 2 monks” so back to balanced again. (sorry my definition of balanced if you have 2 monks protecting your kitten

That’s 1.

More theory crafting will ensue from the community to find counters.

Balanced won’t certainly die. Remember, Izzy won’t nerf a balanced build.

The only solution that i was thinking was to Buffing Guild Lord’s defenses, (which they added way later in game. ) and not nerf the whole build. and give it 1-2 months for people to theory craft.

The amount of QQ from guild-hall.net was pouring floods. Relying on and influencing the skill balancer to give you the advantage is always bad.

What i’d really like to see is for the devs to revamp a lot of elite-skills.
In MOBA games ultimate/elite skills are very powerful and really determine the outcome of a team-fight. This is very viewer-friendly because you quickly start to recognize those elite skills.
In GW2 only a few elite skills have that same effect, one of them being Moa. You can down a bunker in a few seconds if you time a Moa with one of your gankers (Thief, Warr).
Another skill that is super strong is the Supply Crate for engis. However, it is way stronger in 1v1’s than in teamfights which making it very difficult to 1v1 an engineer.
If you compare these with Tornado or Rampage (The warrior elite) people barely use them. Most eles run the Glyph because it’s simply the best, though it is very boring and does not really bring any interesting to the game.
It would be awesome if Tornado, Entangle and Rampage were actually elites to watch out for in a team fight. Currently the roots from entangle will get destroyed instantly or removed due to condi-removal and Tornado makes you a meat-shield.

This is something that would definitely make gw2 more interesting. But of course the main reason Gw2 has not taken off as an esport is because it’s nearly impossible to do anything “remarkable”. You’ll never see someone winning a 1v3 because they outplayed the enemy, even a 1v2 is almost impossible.
Those “epic” moments are what makes an esport, it is what the viewers want to see.
Why does Legolas take down a huge elephant in LOTR against his odds? Because it’s epic and something people want to see.
People are waiting for the moment when Spawn aces the enemy-team (CS 1.6) or Sandking gets Annihilation in a 2v5 fight.
I think you get the point, and this is what GW2 is currently lacking.

TLDR; Elite-skills needs to be more powerful in teamfights rather than 1v1s. GW2 is lacking “epic” moments that we see in other e-sports. Basically, something incredible happening against the odds.
A step in the right direction would be to get call-outs for double kills, triple kills etc. A text saying “[Insert Name] is on a rampage” is not very noticable.

Please no more fighting NPCs and calling it PVP.

Tundera.7956:

do you think GW2 hasn’t taken off? Give me some ideas so we can set it up the right way.

As I feel.
1. The scoring system. 1 pt a second to 500 is a very unclimactic scoring system. Individual points within that 500 feel like they have no meaning. The interval at which pts are given is insanely short and the value of player deaths while still significant enough to be a contributing or even decisive factor in the map, often feels forgettable the majority of the time. The Guild-Lord is still worth relative peanuts.

2. Lack of Central focus. I may be alone but the reason I found GvG even semi-interesting was that the Lord was a central focus you worked towards, various aspects were present but that central focus at the end tied it all in together. Mind you I don’t have a passion for GvG that others here did in the slightest but it was easier to follow. Capture points are just circles, there are 3 of them, while mid is usually strategically valuable numerically it is no more significant than anything else and not much more climactic either. Since pts are given out like hot cakes an individual point is 99% of the time not something to care about so any individual capture lacks oomph. This is different from say getting a point in a real sport because most sports don’t throw points away nilly willy like GW2 is.
In Fighting games even if you play with lives or something like a standard 3 rounds bout having only 3 shots or 2/3 lives makes each one very significant and you can feel the weight of the progression. With a lack of central focus in terms of observing the game it’s a hell of a lot of back and forth between the 3 pts and occassionally 1 of the peanut secondary objectives. It can be hard to keep track of everything and you want to, because that is all there is. If I was watching a moba they may have 3 lanes that split the focus but since each lane is just a means to the real focus at the end of them missing out on one isn’t as huge in reality since so long as the end focus hasn’t been touched the game is still merely just progressing forward. Like gaining yardage in a football game.
The focus being primarily on 3 circles for the actual progression of winning is mmmm holding the game back IMO and probably hurts player interest. Not that Conquest can’t work, but how pts are distributed and what is central being re-evaluated would likely rejuvenate interest. Pts are distributed way too frequently, neither Alliance Battles or Hero battles in gw1 crapped out pts this fast for any one node. If it’s not a player-kill, boss-kill or lord-kill it’s usually not a remotely exciting end.

3. Fairly chaotic, it’s easier to get a feel for the game playing it than with a birds eye view even despite having in truth a more limited viewpoint when playing the game. Who created what is not established very well in contrast to who is performing what. Or in other words Skill animation and effect persistence has a gap in terms of explanation. It’s easy to tell a Warrior is hundred blading it is not so easy to see say if there were two mesmers, who dropped the Chaos storm, especially if you just popped in from another cam or whose grenade poison field that is between two engis.

4. Lack of visible ICD’s for the players playing with them or the audience watching them. As a player this can be very frustrating, as a spectator this also would hurt as many trait effects do not have animations like skills do so when a Thief panic strikes the Guardian and that’s what leads to the kill you’d pretty much never know that was happening as a spectator or even could check if that was about to happen as a spectator. Unless you specifically checked his trait layout you couldn’t just look at the Thief himself and say “hey shoot he’s got Panic strike on recharge so that’s what happened” as a spectator and as that thief playing, you won’t consciously do it the majority of the time since you had no idea it was up or down. Same with Mesmer shatter recharge. Lack of information for both the spectator and the player who’s actually playing their own profession is annoying on both sides of the coin.

5. No cool-out area. Outside of jumping into Keg-brawl which is pretty much not acknowledged as existing anyways, their is no wind-down time so if you drop a couple hundred games in tpvp and you feel burnt out you can’t unwind or do so before reaching that burned out state. That’s part of the issue of having only 1 game mode. Sure Keg brawl and WvW are pvp but WvW has gear obstacles within it and different balance within the profession itself which may be unattractive. Keg brawl apparently doesn’t exist and receives basically no acknowledgement as even casual pvp.

6. Hot-joins aren’t really living up to the solo-que aspect. I don’t have an issue with their not being a specific solo-que, if Hot-joins can properly facilitate that role of wannabe or casual play versus the organized tpvp but they to this day still fall short of doing so. In-fact free tournaments even when we were being pre-made farmed better provided this and also helped to meet people to form mostly unorganized pugs or organized teams.

7. Game just doesn’t feel right? Any unused weapon-set is a major as I see it failure on Anet. When they said this
"
RPS: Guild Wars, drawing on Magic the Gathering and putting building your own character to the forefront, really was unlike any game of its type. How are you changing it this time out? Any to what aim?

Eric Flannum: Our goal remained the same. We wanted to keep the customisability which Guild Wars had. If I’m a Ranger in Guild Wars, I can be a very different character. I could have a hammer and a pet and be a melee character or I could have a bow and interrupt and harass other characters. They’re very different play styles, and you can customise your plays tyle. That was really important to preserve in GW2.

RPS: So what’s changed?

Eric Flannum: One of the issues we always ran into is that some players are not good at building those characters. We went through making sure that we didn’t take the customisation out, but also made it so you can’t make a really, really bad character. In Guild Wars 2, for example, the first half of your skill-bar is determined by what you’re holding in your hand. So if I’m a warrior and I have a sword and a shield and then I switch to a great sword, my first five skills which change to reflect to show that I have a greatsword now. Those aren’t skills you drag to your skill-bar – they’re skills which are determined by your profession and what you’re holding. That way we’re sure that people have at least basic, useable skills which they can build on top of. The second 5 are ones you can slot yourself, and enhance your basic functionality."
You can’t restrict us to 5 skills a weapon for the sake of improving competence and balance and then have weapons nigh disregarded by the community. What the hell was the point of that design decision then. Hellishly disappointing and I certainly ran into and know more than I want to know of people who left (including those on LB) because of how weapons were handled and feeling pigeon-holed or kicked when they were down. GW2 should have a lot more variety in it than it does right now, a dang good amount more, because they’re design decisions apparently from the interview above…shouldn’t have people disregarding any weapon set as simply mediocre or trash.

8. Tying it all together the way PvP is run leaves you wanting. Spectator and Custom are good additions but they’re certainly not finished which is fine, but that is going to be a turn off. Same with the leaderboards. Pvp Infrastructure is obviously not where it could be and though it improves over-time it’s not at a state where I would find it unreasonable for people to not want to be a part of it.

9. Map design itself. Though pts are equal distance, the terrain isn’t the same and it can be problematic for visual (dis)advantage, LoS (dis)advantage or even just holding on pts due to pt size (difference in graveyard vs the rest of the game for example) or the how the are around the point is (clocktowers elevation).

10. Underwater combat is lacking and this doesn’t affect Temple but even outside of competitive as far as your “chill-time” goes Capricorn is a pain you want to run away from. Maybe I’m alone but I don’t hate UC, I’m just not going to bother with something that feels that poor at the moment unless forced (temple). Maps sucking is fine when you have quite a few maps you just have a list of perma banned maps (like Capricorn atm) and then maps you counter-pick/ban based on the situation. However UWC should be fixed this year or next.

These all effect the enjoyability of watching and playing the game and hurt moving forward. After watching a few scrims I don’t feel like watching GW2 anymore. For fights it’s not bad or even just following an individual player but as a whole it’s a pain to observe and though the casters do what they can with the way the focus splits decisions to check a back-capping ranger for instance while there is an interesting fight at mid? Annoying.
inb4wtfareyoutalkingaboutensoriki

I definitely agree with the centralized objective point you made. I felt like the guild lord in GvG was a big drive. Point capture is a great mode, but when you think about it~ any competitive PvP game that is at an e-sport level has a solid objective. The nexus for LoL, killing your opponents base in Starcraft 2. I feel like for the e-sports scene, and for how hard GW2 is to follow in its essence anyway, the lack of an objective based mode is detrimental to the excitement of a pvp focused game.

Maps are fine I think. Even in SC2 you have maps that are good for certain races and builds. It adds to your versatility. If you have a longer trek than the opponent just switch up your build to compensate.

As for the casters, I do get what Bas said about the game having just released spectator so I want to reiterate that I wasn’t trying to pick on the casters, but instead how difficult the game is to cast in essence. I think what would be a great way to combat that would be to maybe allow (and I know this is a big if) but allow multi-client access for spectating only. That way, casters can have like 2 or 3 different screen regions saved, and one can be for each point as well as one free roaming region for the actual caster to maneuver.

Regardless, there is a definite scene upcoming that I am thrilled about, and I am slowly finding out about the work SOAC is doing and it’s sounding pretty solid. So I guess the ball for improvement really is in A nets court now.

The main problem of Guildwars2 and having more competitive teams rely in its gameplay. The success is more based on fast and right communication rather than rough skill. This leads into static teams and to keep the same players in a team playing. Also players have to have a good relation between each other and an even better synergy.

I played HA back in the days of GW1 and was quite successfull. This mode is the opposite to tPvP from GW2. It was more about rough skill than right communication. This led into more dynamic teams. It was really easy to change players without loosing quality.

What I hear often from disbanded guilds is that someone leaves from their core-team and then they have problems getting a fifth player who fits into the team. Also it needs time to get along with the new player. We have the same problem at the moment and it’s really difficult to handle that and meanwhile staying competitive enough.

In most of games (if not all) a team that communicate well have a great advantage over the other one. In all my pvp experience even from other games i always used TS to coordinate with my mates.
The difference is that in gw2 seems really mandatory, cause of its dynamic gameplay and the need of quick reaction in term of team strategy.
This might not be really new-user-friendly, but i think any competitive pvp isnt.

off topic: everyone saying that gw1 pvp was so much better, I tried to look it up on youtube but i could only find gw2 vids, anyone can provide me a link of some good gw1 pvp ?

cuge.5398:

In most of games (if not all) a team that communicate well have a great advantage over the other one. In all my pvp experience even from other games i always used TS to coordinate with my mates.
The difference is that in gw2 seems really mandatory, cause of its dynamic gameplay and the need of quick reaction in term of team strategy.
This might not be really new-user-friendly, but i think any competitive pvp isnt.

off topic: everyone saying that gw1 pvp was so much better, I tried to look it up on youtube but i could only find gw2 vids, anyone can provide me a link of some good gw1 pvp ?

just type this in Google or YouTube and enjoy:

Guild Wars GvG : rawr vs KMD

I wonder if the following point system would work:
- halfed score objective (from 500 to 250 pts)
- no automatic point gain,
- points can be obtained only from captures&decaptures or only captures, player kills and 2nd objectives
(optional: increase points gained for player kills, decrease points gained for killing the lord in such a system)

Another option would be to increase the rate at which points are gained to every 5 seconds (and also reducing the final score to 300 or 400).

At the post above, I wouldn’t recommend such matches…rather go with Guild Wars World Championships hosted at Leipzig, or any old-school matches from the days Koreans still played: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdJM0xsbHhs.

Personally, conquest in GW2 would gain a lot if it was like conquest in LoL.
1) You need to actively capture points. Just standing in the area is not enough.
2) Team score automatically increases only if your team holds more points than the other team.

Killing players could reward more or less in different situations to reward good play.

1. In order to capture a point, you’d need to channel a couple of seconds to get it. Captured points recover if uncontested. This would add a lot to build diversity and tactics. E.g. You could no longer use one bunker to guard a point against multiple foes and harassing just for the sake of harassing would be viable.

2. This solves two problems:
-Turtling a capture point when score is high enough is no longer viable.
-A comeback is much easier to do when you can stop the enemy from gaining points. This would add a lot to drama in battles.

Edit: A conquest system like this is much easier to scale with the numbers of players. Just add more nodes(but keep the number odd) and if you want add dependencies among them to control the flow and direct players in pug match. Just think of Onslaught or Warfare in the UT series. Much can be learned from these game types and GW2’s pvp expanded to cater to different group sizes and different maps/secondary objectives.

Gw2 was kitten the day downed state was added.

downed state makes an interesting test of judgement

Assyrian.4827:

just type this in Google or YouTube and enjoy:

Guild Wars GvG : rawr vs KMD

Nice vid. It reminds me though, if you look at gw1 videos from the perspective of someone who never played it, you’d have no idea what is going on there. Great coordination, but unless you play, you just wouldn’t even realise. Spikes are so fun to watch though.

If you strip down conquest to its core benefits, it is actually a very strong mode:

You are rewarded for outplaying your opponent: points for killing, node capped/uncapped

This one time advantage wears benefits overtime : 1 point /3 sec per node, 15 sec re spawn.

Until the opponent outplays you.

It is “fair” because if you’re dominating the whole match then the other team has very little chance to come back.
It is exciting because if the opposite plays better -and I mean really better, not just a single move of genius/luck- they can come back at any time.

As for the absolute boredom to keep a point, it has to do with this esport thing again: just like goalkeepers don’t do much until the enemy strikers come, it’s alright to have players doing nothing between action-packed moments.

Definitely make an exclusive battle ground for 2 teams for like this to happen with secondary and tertiary objectives of Taking a Tower (aka killing the guild lord) and controling certain areas (aka taking flagstands). With 500-500 point system still. With equalized gear such as in sPvP.

It’s simple. Sure you still cannot test your reflexes like power blocking or dshotting infuse health but it’s ok.

Ok, so I haven’t read through all the replies not sure if someone brought this up but anyway:

You’re comparing LoL and GW2. My issue with this is that LoL is a game that was specifically designed to be competitive. It was based on DotA and as such already had credibility as a viable e-sport. GW2 pvp was not designed to be competitive as it’s no1 priority, it was designed to be ACCESSIBLE. I get the impression that most PvP players feel this design was to the detriment of GW2 as a viable competitive e-sport. Obviously LoL is somewhat accessible to new players but the difference between entry level games and mid-high elo ranked games is so vast its almost like you’re playing a different game. This doesn’t really happen in GW2 sPvP. It just becomes slightly more organized with less people involved.

The biggest problem I find is that games just get stale after a while though. If we’re still comparing LoL to GW2, I’m going to say LoL is like a game of chess whereas GW2 is like a game of rock-paper-scissors. Each game, you go in with a certain strategy. You assign roles (i.e. mid for LoL, bunker in gw2) to players. But, where in GW2 you can either do your job against who you’re up against with your class and specs, in LoL matches usually end up being far more skill-based because you’re not going in to the game with a full item build, but only your champion mechanics. There is progression that can be halted or boosted by good or poor gameplay. In GW2, if you couldn’t kill that thief the first time you probably can’t the second time either. Getting ahead in gw2 means you’re doing your job/s better than the other team and if you maintain this there isn’t anything they can do about it, but getting ahead in LoL gives you an actual, tangible advantage that can be lost and reversed if the enemy responds to your play.

This is why a game mode that requires more in-depth strategy is required like GvG. GW1 sPvP operated on roughly the same premise as GW2: You’re not sure who you’re up against so you design your strategy around the team you want to play and hope you can best anything you encounter with it. The problem is the depth to this form of strategy is limited by the gw2 spvp mode more than it was in gw1, and at the end of the day it just doesn’t make for a particularly competitive or interesting game to watch,

cuge.5398:

anyone can provide me a link of some good gw1 pvp ?

Hugs.1856:

If you strip down conquest to its core benefits, it is actually a very strong mode:

You are rewarded for outplaying your opponent: points for killing, node capped/uncapped

This one time advantage wears benefits overtime : 1 point /3 sec per node, 15 sec re spawn.

Until the opponent outplays you.

It is “fair” because if you’re dominating the whole match then the other team has very little chance to come back.
It is exciting because if the opposite plays better -and I mean really better, not just a single move of genius/luck- they can come back at any time.

As for the absolute boredom to keep a point, it has to do with this esport thing again: just like goalkeepers don’t do much until the enemy strikers come, it’s alright to have players doing nothing between action-packed moments.

If you really think about conquest, with careful map design you have all the key elements that make GvG exciting and intense. The problem is with the current maps, although Temple is actually heading in the right direction… There’s also the fact that some of the other game mechanics don’t lend themselves to certain exciting aspects of GvG, but the game mode itself is quite similar at its core. More accurately, the strategies that each game mode enforces can be quite similar at their core, with the right maps.

Edit: Pretext: That monthly tournament match was about 3 or so years ago and at the beginning we wiped in 2 minutes or something from our heal monk playing terribly. I snuck out the base and as you can see – Chaos ensued. We ended up winning the match at the end of the game because of that play – But nothing like this happens in GW2 – Nothing with this level excitement is possible with the current gameplay.

Gvg had a freedom that no other pvp game ever had, there was basically only one rule: kill the lord.

Anything else was irrelevant and didn’t mathematically contribute to be victory.

You could take half of the enemy team out by repeatedly killing them, it didn’t make you closer to victory in the way the current point system does.

GvG was really unique in that regard, you had so many ways to approach a match and play it because there was no best way to win.

Conquest tunnels you into capping and holding tactics. It has great synergies with a point system, which the devs wanted because of esport blabla- but it’s nowhere as deep as GvG.

I don’t mind it too much though. What’s really bothering me is the absolute mess of team fights and the lack of deep interaction between team members.

These majors issues are inherent to gw2 design IMO since the game was built upon 2 paradigms – among other:
- you should be able to play solo
- the game has to be understandable by anyone who watches it (esport blabla again) and therefore much emphasis needs to be put on the visual effects.

Only time will tell if such constraints are impossible to overcome or not to have a fun and competitive pvp game.

There are optimal strategies however, and 99% of GvG games played out in a very similar fashion in the later years. It’s really about appropriate allocation of resources, just like conquest. Well, just like conquest on maps where the nodes aren’t all in a line.

Imo, gw2 lacks too many things to boost it’s way to the E-sports scenario. Comparing it to LoL which is probably my favorite pvp game of all times, I can tell the many lacks of this game in no time. For one, class balance in Spvp is a joke, many classes got too much under their sleeves while others got between nothing and maybe a little bit of potential that only the most skilled can use to try to make the class useful, even then it still won’t be.

In LoL every champion took practice to master and each of them added high diversity and somehow finding that right mix was just part of the fun. In GW2 I jump on a guardian and feel like a face roller as I’m hard as hell to kill, with simple mechanics and as long as I’m standing no one is taking my point, yet I do the same in a warrior and all I can do is poke people while running for my life since chances are I will barely be able to hit em, will die faster than them and over all I be a waste of team space. So until classes get balanced around to a point where they can compete against one another this ship isn’t sailing anywhere.

Hit detection is also horrible, I use my veins elite while standing really close to an enemy, he doesn’t evade, use stability or any form of stun break and boom he doesn’t even get hit by it, throw bollas with a warrior over a lightly high ground, bolas disappear on the ground CD wasted…so on the list goes.

The ladder boards don’t make me feel like I’m doing any progress. Spvp itself isn’t rewarding at all.

3 points with random mechanics thrown in is lame, people sometimes spend more time destroying the enemy trebuchet than they do capping and defending points, maps are small probably to encourage fighting, but fighting with this class balance is pointless. All in all play a bunker, you will win lol.

alcopaul.2156:

cuge.5398:

anyone can provide me a link of some good gw1 pvp ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjReXykgeTc

And within the first 3 minutes you can see what made GW1 so much better in terms of PvP. Lum is trying to kill WM W B, and they are doing this as a team effort, with everyone having a specific role, while WM is using their team to protect W B with blinds, interrupts, heals und protection spells.
What would happen in GW2 if 3 people focus one enemy? Just hope you have a teleport ready to get out of that, otherwise you will die. Once a player runs out of personal defense, they will get focused down in a second, because teamsupport is near nonexistant.
GW2 needs more strong teamsupport, which don’t also act as self support.
In this case, support isn’t just healing or protection.
Support can also come in form of offensive support, like hard and soft CC, damage amplifying buffs or removal of protective boons on the enemy.
Killing and surviving in GW1 was a team effort.

Well conquest entirely revolves around capping and bunkering. That’s pretty much the only way to play the game.

To win you need points and the most efficient way to get points is to cap and keep.

GvG wasn’t based on points – endgame mechanic aside like lord damage. It relied on a qualitative objective: kill the lord. It was then up to the players to chose how to reach that objective.

In the end of the game players got lazy and just enjoyed the beauty of 8v8 flag stand matches. However split manoeuvres weren’t rare at all and many cool moves were made/discovered in the later years:p

bring back the holy trinity.

it is the foundation of group play which not only appeals to multiple playstyles, but also encourages higher levels of coordination and team presence as opposed to what we have now which, even in highly organized top tier matches, is a dps race to clear the point and move on.

fun to play, boring to watch.

Hugs.1856:

Gvg had a freedom that no other pvp game ever had, there was basically only one rule: kill the lord.

Anything else was irrelevant and didn’t mathematically contribute to be victory.

You could take half of the enemy team out by repeatedly killing them, it didn’t make you closer to victory in the way the current point system does.

GvG was really unique in that regard, you had so many ways to approach a match and play it because there was no best way to win.

Conquest tunnels you into capping and holding tactics. It has great synergies with a point system, which the devs wanted because of esport blabla- but it’s nowhere as deep as GvG.

I don’t mind it too much though. What’s really bothering me is the absolute mess of team fights and the lack of deep interaction between team members.

These majors issues are inherent to gw2 design IMO since the game was built upon 2 paradigms – among other:
- you should be able to play solo
- the game has to be understandable by anyone who watches it (esport blabla again) and therefore much emphasis needs to be put on the visual effects.

Only time will tell if such constraints are impossible to overcome or not to have a fun and competitive pvp game.

when victory depends on killing an npc, all effort and perfect skill synergies with your teammates goes down into a flushing toilet if your lord is killed.

we have had matches where we cannot even kill kitten. we waited while our enemy waited in the flagstand. one of our warriors snicked and waited in an area undetected for VoD. VoD came and they decided to rush our lord in our base and our solo warrior Killed the guild lord. Too late for them.

Another is that we can’t kill kitten again and many of us at almost 60 dp. VoD came and they expected us to go to flagstand since they assumed that we were GvG noobs who only know how to Tombs. But we all ganked the guild lord and won. They were [Te] and this was when GvG IWAY was long nerfed (we still try to run it)

Another is that we were slightly low in morale. VoD came and we rushed the lord. We
blocked the path and we won. This is vs [EW] (but they had 2 guests)

On the other note, we were on ZPZG’s base and we were winning. But we tried to fall back because of a tactical decision. One of our warriors was attacking the lord while most of us fell back. We were yelling at him to fall back. We were winning. But we fell back. Most of our team got trebbed and they used that to advance. That warrior guild mate was right all along. They won.

See, your individual skills won’t be showcased with this type of lucky wins. They won’t matter.

Conquest will showcase your skill usage since winning doesn’t depend on killing an npc. Since killing and capping will accrue your points. No such thing as lucky wins. Also since an spectator will see how you’ll use your skills, you will be judged by that.

alcopaul.2156:

when victory depends on killing an npc, all effort and perfect skill synergies with your teammates goes down into a flushing toilet if your lord is killed.

Conquest will showcase your skill usage since winning doesn’t depend on killing an npc. Since killing and capping will accrue your points. No such thing as lucky wins. Also since an spectator will see how you’ll use your skills, you will be judged by that.

Not necessarily, only when the npc is completely, out of the blue, ninja’able.
That isn’t something necessary, for a game to have winning based on killing an npc.

Because GW2’s conquest doesn’t have a potential flaw of GvG, doesn’t mean that it isn’t riddled with flaws of its own.

Varonth.5830:

alcopaul.2156:

cuge.5398:

anyone can provide me a link of some good gw1 pvp ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjReXykgeTc

And within the first 3 minutes you can see what made GW1 so much better in terms of PvP. Lum is trying to kill WM W B, and they are doing this as a team effort, with everyone having a specific role, while WM is using their team to protect W B with blinds, interrupts, heals und protection spells.
What would happen in GW2 if 3 people focus one enemy? Just hope you have a teleport ready to get out of that, otherwise you will die. Once a player runs out of personal defense, they will get focused down in a second, because teamsupport is near nonexistant.
GW2 needs more strong teamsupport, which don’t also act as self support.
In this case, support isn’t just healing or protection.
Support can also come in form of offensive support, like hard and soft CC, damage amplifying buffs or removal of protective boons on the enemy.
Killing and surviving in GW1 was a team effort.

Moreover, LuM’s defense had melee hate, since they know that WM will run 4 wars, which remained to be their team setup after they run 8 gale warriors on their smurf. They had distortion on their monks. But guess who won?

NOTE: this is not even the best WM vs LuM fight. I think this was best of some number of fights. (3?) The best one was they were completely build countered and yet WM still managed to win.

Varonth.5830:

What would happen in GW2 if 3 people focus one enemy? Just hope you have a teleport ready to get out of that, otherwise you will die. Once a player runs out of personal defense, they will get focused down in a second, because teamsupport is near nonexistant.

I’m sorry, but this is just not true. The GW2 scene is still relatively new, so yes you might not see a lot of teamwork yet, but it’s there, and certainly has potential to grow as the playerbase improves.