Guild Wars 2

Follidus.8027:

I’m sorry, but this is just not true. The GW2 scene is still relatively new, so yes you might not see a lot of teamwork yet, but it’s there, and certainly has potential to grow as the playerbase improves.

Wut?
There were top tier esports teams playing this game.

In hardcore premades, there is a level of teamwork, whether or not it is adequate can only really be shown through how many hardcore premades still play…

GW2 had an utterly massive population, if for so many people it came up lacking… there is an issue with the game.

The only debate should be about what it is and if Anet cares to address it…

garethh.3518:

Because GW2’s conquest doesn’t have a potential flaw of GvG, doesn’t mean that it isn’t riddled with flaws of its own.

Conquest could be expanded and adapt elements from WvW to be a more fun and robust game. and you don’t need to import the EXACT GW1 PvP elements to make that happen.

Because you won’t ever see this in GW1 PvP

There’s is like no focus in the combat and no finesse. The only time you feel good about something you did is when you land a knockdown or stun and interupt a powerful skill and then just spam everything you can. Really though the combat is like a first person shooter and spraying and praying, but take that comparison with a grain of salt. Each individual bullet isn’t really that effective, but the mass amount of unavoidable bullets is what counts.

Anyway, that’s how I feel.

alcopaul.2156:

when victory depends on killing an npc, all effort and perfect skill synergies with your teammates goes down into a flushing toilet if your lord is killed.

we have had matches where we cannot even kill kitten. we waited while our enemy waited in the flagstand. one of our warriors snicked and waited in an area undetected for VoD. VoD came and they decided to rush our lord in our base and our solo warrior Killed the guild lord. Too late for them.

You outplayed your opponent. Your opponent was too stupid to count 7 opposing players visible and realize 1 was missing and doing something. That is the nature of the game.

alcopaul.2156:

Conquest will showcase your skill usage since winning doesn’t depend on killing an npc. Since killing and capping will accrue your points. No such thing as lucky wins. Also since an spectator will see how you’ll use your skills, you will be judged by that.

Conquest is boring as hell. Stop it.

alcopaul.2156:

Conquest could be expanded and adapt elements from WvW to be a more fun and robust game. and you don’t need to import the EXACT GW1 PvP elements to make that happen.

Because you won’t ever see this in GW1 PvP

The map is an issue, and a relatively big one at that, but I don’t really see how a gimmick P/D spec really relates to that??
Yeah its an entertaining spec to mess around with when you are solo’ing, tossing out C&D pretty much off ‘revealed’ CD… that’s why so many people had some hopes for GW2, it had some pretty good gems of gameplay mixed in the rubble…
But I don’t really see a contextual point even somewhat embedded in that vid…

And I mean, parts of WvW, ehh, that’s way too broad and could mean changing next to everything or nothing…

i’m not going to read 3 pages of wall of texts, sry if this has been said before.

this is what anet needs to do to support the competitive scene.

buff underpowered skills/builds such that the meta can continuously evolve,
solidify the matchmaking and ranking system, polish the spectator view, maybe release a new gamemode.

then release the spvp part of the game as a separate free to play client. people can download this and be restricted to only hotm.

this will bring in all the casuals and pad the player base nicely. the competitive scene will grow as a direct result.

wads.5730:

then release the spvp part of the game as a separate free to play client. people can download this and be restricted to only hotm.

this will bring in all the casuals and pad the player base nicely. the competitive scene will grow as a direct result.

This claim has been made hundreds of times for GW1 PvP and was never implemented.

GW1 PvP is and was tons more enjoyable than GW2 PvP has ever been.

Fat chance they would free to play a worse version than its predecessor.

Motoko, you’re overglorifying gvg in its current form.
The trend of dumbing down the game has been around since years, and has been displayed very clearly in the most recent ele balance update.
GW2 could therefore be seen as a direct and very intended manifestation of such an approach. Quality-wise, GW1 pvp is naturally still better, simply because it’s actually a team-oriented game, but let’s keep things real – it’s not even a shadow of its former self.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all, just wanted to say that this is a great conversation, and we’re keeping an eye on it. I would ask, though, that we keep it on topic. We’re very interested in what could come of this, and are really excited by the prospect of the Guild Wars 2 players banding together to produce these great tournaments and shoutcasted matches.

For a dev to respond to a thread such as this…I’m impressed

im

GW1 was one of a kind frankly. I have looked up and down for a game that can even come close to matching the quality of competitive play that it had, none exist. For a matter of fact, I plan on making a game, because of my frustration, that will embody what GW1 pvp had, namely, true actual team play.

GW1 pvp had team members that required assistance from other players, and on a much deeper level than just be here and hit the same target. During GW1 prime, a balance build had to literally unlock the defense of the opposing team in order for the warriors to deal any damage at all. This sort of interaction created a powerful dynamic that meant, for the first (and apparently last) time that the sum of the players abilities tended to be waaaay less than the combined abilities of the total team. So, if I were only so good and a friend of mine were only so good, our individual skill did not matter as much as our ability to work together.

I could go into four pages of discussion as to why GW1 was like this and another four into why GW2 isn’t. The biggest problem is not the lack of a dedicated healer, the team size, the individual player mechanics or any of that.. It is the game mode to be frank. You cannot expect a fully cooperative team component to appear in a game if you are playing a game mode that FORCES players to separate. Historically, this way of thinking has always failed and it has failed again. To think that to release with a capture point game mode only was a good idea is evidence that Anet did not care to re-imagine any portion of what made GW1 amazing.

By the way, the second point, which I could also argue in four pages, is that Anet never understood GW1 pvp. They had to have rawr balance it for them after all.

Yea, absolutely nothing can hold a candle to GW1 when it comes to pvp. It was basicaly a living thing, growing on its own together with the playerbase, because its amazing core design allowed for such growth, combined with some stirr-ups by the devs (if only those would always have been as good as the core design).

And that makes its decline, and the accompanying decrease in quality, all the more tragic. Much like the fact it is/was way ahead of its time. I cannot help but wonder how its fate would look like, had it been created years later, in the era when streaming and esports became a big thing.

GW2 makes me a sad panda, such a sad panda.

I think one cornerstone of gw1 was:

the melee had to catch the ranged. Iwasn’t the ranged job to escape the melee

u know whaI mean. i

nt

Well first of all, I respect the initiative that the OP is putting out.

But I still have to point out, that GW2 had it all when it came out. Had the hype, had loads of players ready to get into some serious pvp, but Anet lost it all. Quite simply because there was 0 attention given to sPvP. It has almost been a year now since the game was released, and the amount of work they did on sPvP since then equals what I expected them to do in first 2 months. And if they wanted to keep people playing sPvP they should have done it in 2 months. If they were serious about spvp becoming an e-sport, they WOULD have done it in 2 months.

Fact is, GW2 has no competition out there on the MMO market when it comes to sPvP. Yet they have still lost so many players. Simply because sPvP is just bad and it won’t ever be as big as GW1 was.

I think every1 is just to fond of gw1 pvp, and literally want a copy of that game in a new engine. GW2 from what i see GW2 have evolve but it’s something too different than the norm and i think it need some time to figure out what it wanna be, like some what in thier teens and need to find a path.

What i think GW2 neeed is that A-net really need to step up, with it’s community coming together to support their game, they should reply in kind. A-net need to support it’s community too.I think they need form a bigger pvp team, and have a community relation manager that oversee the feedback from the community,take it, test it and come out with good solution. Have a major balance patch every month or 1 and half month with minor patchs every 2 week. There a lot of skill and traits need revamping and interface and animation to fix.

So many GW1-Worshippers. Did you honestly expect GW2 to be exactly like GW1? Those gamemodes are already there and the game is still accessible to play.
GvG might have had a higher skill-cap than Conquest, which is necessary for a game to be competitive. But in all honesty, watching the PvP in GW1 is way more boring than watching GW2.
Who am I to say that?
I played GW1 for some time, but never really did much pvping. I didn’t suck completely but i never had a team either, so i’d probably be a “casual”.
I’ve tried watching some GvG’s and to be honest i find it boring. To someone that does not know the meta-game and the skills very well it’s just a complete and utter mess of chaos.
This is in contrast to for instance LoL, HoN or Dota where the game is much more viewer-friendly or CS 1.6 for that matter.
GW1 might (at this point) have had a superior pvp-format in terms of skill-level, but that i not the only thing that makes a game.
Also; Remember that GW1 has been out for many years and have 3 expansions. GW2 has been out for 7 months.

We tend to glorify things because we want them to match our perception. That is why so many people talk highly of the old Pokémon games, Tekken 3 and many other games, yet they do not actively play them (a few do). You must have experienced going back to a game feeling: “It’s just not the same” and being scared of ruining the good memories. I’ve tried that once with Ultima Online, and i didnt even play it for a day.
Well, that is because it was a different time and many things have changed.
Many things determine whether we feel good about a game or not. It can be the community, the gameplay, graphics and a bunch of other stuff.
The good things sometimes outshine the bad.

I think the people who want GvG back are as blindsided as the esport bees.

As much as I loved GvG I do not want it back. I very much respect arena net for adventuring in unexplored lands game design wise.

It’s absolutely essential for the industry that big devs who have the support of massive companies try something new.

However I am absolutely baffled by their refusal to integrate and adapt gw1 core elements that made the pvp so great.
The protection/shut down/damage trinity and skills designed on trade offs (frenzy) and that would only trigger under certain conditions (bull’s strike) are the real strength of gw1.

My guess is that the devs are very aware of what made GvG amazing but they thought it would be incompatible with an esport game.

And I absolutely despise that kind of thinking. They are willingly and purposefully taking the fun out 90% of the players to give it to shout casters, pro teams and the players who prefer watching streams than playing.

Designing a game to be esport introduces a gigantic bias in every single design decision. The priority is not the fun and the depth but the accessibility and how exciting it is to watch.

As far as I’m concerned, I don’t want a copy paste of GvG, or TA (I’d rather see the GW1 population increase for that). An 8v8 wouldn’t quite work in such a game to start with, it’s just too spammy, AI-based and cluster-happy for that.

What I wanted was a pvp design to be as exciting, fun, team-based and competitive as it is on GW1. Instead, it fell flat. Completely.

I wholeheartedly agree with most of what you say.
However, I do not believe they knew what made GvG, and GW1 pvp in general, so amazing. If they did, how can you possibly explain their decision to scrap everything and start from scratch. I don’t think giving them the benefit of the doubt by blaming it on esportz-oriented design holds water, or at least not fully.
With the grand majority of the pvp playerbase gone, a significant portion of basic game infrastructure still lacking and many game-breaking bugs continuing to persist unaddresses to this day, there won’t be a future for this game’s pvp.

Hugs.1856:

My guess is that the devs are very aware of what made GvG amazing but they thought it would be incompatible with an esport game.

And I absolutely despise that kind of thinking. They are willingly and purposefully taking the fun out 90% of the players to give it to shout casters, pro teams and the players who prefer watching streams than playing.

Designing a game to be esport introduces a gigantic bias in every single design decision. The priority is not the fun and the depth but the accessibility and how exciting it is to watch.

you think gw2 was designed to be esport? really?

Compared to other MMO’s GW2 already has the most important e-sport feature.
The ability to get instant lvl 80 and be on equal footing with everyone else.
That was one of the things the developers used to promote GW2 as a possible e-sport, and i don’t see the wrongs in that.

GvG in the way it was in GW1 will never find its way into GW2. Allthough a fitted version of it could be surely implemented.
But first we need all the other things be fixed, like que-dodging, reward-system, real leaderboards, a good solo-Q, real-lfg-tool, bug-free classes, build-diversity and so on. I doubt they have time to create another mode in the next years.

Next years, you mean.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Next years, you mean.

I was thinking too positive

I didn’t quite realise it at first, but now it’s pretty obvious gw2 was designed with esport as the primary goal – sadly.

All the visual effects, the simple skills, the point system, the conquest mode, the emphasis on solo actions it’s all because the game needs to be easy and enjoyable to watch for anyone who picks it up.

The worst thing is that they even failed to do it:( gw2 is a mess to watch and the learning curve us atrociously steep.

But that aside, I think it’s okay to have some complexity and there is no need to oversimplify everything in the name of accessibility.

I mean how many of us loved radiohead’s in rainbows the first time we heard it? But after a few tries, you have to admit it’s a beautiful piece of music and to this day very very enjoyable to listen to.
Unlike pop albums that are easy to listen to but bear no interest after a while.

Always take the audience higher. Do not lower to them.

No, I don’t expect Anet to make a GW1 GvG copy in GW2, I just want a good game. GW1 was a good game.

However while making GW2, they’ve gone fixing and changing stuff that wasn’t broken. GW2 was not made as a pvp game. To me it seems it was made as a PvE game, and then they tossed whatever they had to the small understaffed and under-budgeted pvp team and told them to make some decent pvp out of it. Of course it doesn’t work that way…

samo.1054:

it was made as a PvE game, and then they tossed whatever they had to the small understaffed and under-budged pvp team and told them to make some decent pvp out of it. Of course it doesn’t work that way…

Mammoth.1975:

Assyrian.4827:

just type this in Google or YouTube and enjoy:

Guild Wars GvG : rawr vs KMD

Nice vid. It reminds me though, if you look at gw1 videos from the perspective of someone who never played it, you’d have no idea what is going on there. Great coordination, but unless you play, you just wouldn’t even realise. Spikes are so fun to watch though.

Yeh, exactly, i watched it but with all those speed up/slow down, quick pov change, i really couldnt understand much, i can just guess something about the game from what ppl say here…. so far seems to me it was more focused on teamwork in the fight, with more supportive spells and stuff like that.
I would definitely appreciate if gw2 could offer some easier way to support eachother in a teamfight, i mean, there are already some great examples of this, but its really hard to achieve it cause the gameplay is really fast, thus its more focused on players being self sufficient and then teamwork comes into play as an added good.
Its quite hard to support the team here, and most of that support plays around the downed state, interrupting stompers, ressing the downed or stealthing it to prevent stomping…
It wont be bad to have some more “decisive” support skills, that would exalt a coordinated team, like being able to make a teammate invulnerable, or cleansing conditions from him (there are ways to do this, but usually its just 1).

cuge.5398:

Yeh, exactly, i watched it but with all those speed up/slow down, quick pov change, i really couldnt understand much, i can just guess something about the game from what ppl say here…. so far seems to me it was more focused on teamwork in the fight, with more supportive spells and stuff like that.

Well that video was made for people who were playing gw1 at that time. Try this video and it’s follow ups:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdJM0xsbHhs
It’s quite long but it’s the best video for non gw1 players to watch.

samo.1054:

Well first of all, I respect the initiative that the OP is putting out.

But I still have to point out, that GW2 had it all when it came out. Had the hype, had loads of players ready to get into some serious pvp, but Anet lost it all. Quite simply because there was 0 attention given to sPvP. It has almost been a year now since the game was released, and the amount of work they did on sPvP since then equals what I expected them to do in first 2 months. And if they wanted to keep people playing sPvP they should have done it in 2 months. If they were serious about spvp becoming an e-sport, they WOULD have done it in 2 months.

Fact is, GW2 has no competition out there on the MMO market when it comes to sPvP. Yet they have still lost so many players. Simply because sPvP is just bad and it won’t ever be as big as GW1 was.

Hey, I think I’ve probably been about as toxic about what Anet should have done as any one. Seriously iI’ve pulled no punches.

if Anet wants to try and make a good game NOW… iI’ll still support their effort.

KarlaGrey.5903:

And that makes its decline, and the accompanying decrease in quality, all the more tragic. Much like the fact it is/was way ahead of its time. I cannot help but wonder how its fate would look like, had it been created years later, in the era when streaming and esports became a big thing.

It was packaged as Magic the Gathering on a pc. You have tons of skills that makes it possible for tons of builds to be created. But sad move is sad move, they started favoring the balanced setup. So anything (smite, spikes, thumpers, spearchuckers, iway, spirit ways, what-ever ways, etc. FoTMs) that does not look balanced and beat balanced was killed. Why? Because balanced was what the leet Koreans ran and they excelled at it. They made it the must learn template and glorified it. So bad move is bad move.

then matches became balanced vs balanced, most mirror matches and the only difference is a class or two. it became boring. 2 monks is a must. and those who ran it defended it that it requires skill to run and anything else is noob or overpowered. Glass cannon builds, which term i only heard when i played GW2, already exist since 2005 GW1 and they were killed. Defensive ball builds already exist since 2005 GW1 and it was not permitted to grow. Only kittening balanced build is favored.

I bet if GW1 was released this days, it would be a different one. with the days of reddit and powerful social media, peoples opinion will matter more. more open mindedness and less dependence on a small circle of balanced runners from the skill balancers. Sure decay was expected because there was no growth. no moving on beyond balanced, just forcing everyone to run it. And those who first ran balanced successfully didn’t stay for 5-7 years. They quit. People quit. Sure the tactics in balanced evolved but it can only evolve at a certain point.

In short, those skill balances favoring one build template/setup and ensued mirror matches destroyed GW1. Again, thanks Izzy for listening to QQs. You killed diversity and fun in Guild Wars One. Now it’s dead and these balanced runners want it back. I will LOL if this happens.

Motoko.2875:

alcopaul.2156:

Watching GW1 PvP this days after 8 years, is like still using your Nokia 5110 as your cell phone this time of the year. The game mechanics is old. it is not dynamic. it’s point and click. And the CCs are archaic. They say it’s complicated but i don’t see the complication. Maybe it’s just rigid, well it’s rigid because everything is rigid. Yeah you dshotted or powerblocked infuse health. Sure your skilled. But you’re indeed skilled if you did this on a dialup connection.

It is nothing like that at all. The combat mechanics and the way the game is designed is eternities ahead of any MOBA. HoN, DotA, LoL are the only things that come remotely close to it. The game is old, the mechanics are not. The game is not point in click. You don’t see the complication because you never played the game at a high level. The way you describe integration between dshot/powerblock and infuse health doesn’t define skill. You can’t reflex interupting infuse. The game has much more than that and that is why more people still play GW1 PvP than GW2 s/tPvP.

alcopaul.2156:

I’m the one of the many (i hope) that appreciates the more dynamic and more tactical gameplay of GW2. And this is coming from someone who don’t play tPvP. I watched Team Paradigm and the shoutcasts and I appreciated their skill level and the skill level of their enemies even. it’s fast paced. unpredictable. And concise. No kittenty things such as tie breaker or killing an NPC to win. It’s easy to watch. Easy to follow. Just like every other sports but scrabble. Moreover, The game doesn’t depend on killing an NPC.

You are in the minority. If that copy cat guild can ever be a successful GW1 guild, I’ll give them props. GW2 is no more concise than GW1. In fact, I’d say it is less concise as you need 8 coordinated players as opposed to just 5. To kill an NPC in GW1 you have to outplay your opponent. It isn’t PvE. And the game makes much more sense and is more thrilling than any GW2 play so far.

Again you are showing that you are really unfamiliar with high level play in GW1.

Note – Team Paradigm took their name from a GvG guild that I ran back in GW1 in 2008. Still never understood their fanaticism with my guild.

alcopaul.2156:

I’ve played my share of GW1 gvgs and most of the time we won even at 60 dp because we kittening killed an NPC.

r2000 GvGs don’t count. Again you are showing that you are really unfamiliar with high level play in GW1.

alcopaul.2156:

But one thing that made GW1 GvG a poignant mark on my gaming memory. War Machine [WM] versus Lamer’s Ultimate Majority [LuM]. Everyother matches don’t even compare.

These were good matches. Sadly it occured a little bit before I started PvP.

Everything coming out of your mouth is from that of someone who was never an exceptional player at Guild Wars 1 PvP. I am not trying to be insulting or rude by repeating that statement to you – It is my assessment based on your statements. Your argument isn’t strong and has a ton of inaccuracies and a lot of opinions based on your lack of understanding of GW1 and your opinion that you think you understand GW2 PvP at the apex of its competitive performance.

That pretty much discredit’s your entire argument.

Hey, played some of the higher end PvP as well. … we both know most people played IWAY… hopefully in halls instead of GvG.

anet needs to appeal to those players too if they want a large following.

they can’t just pander to you and me.

so youre right, they SHOULD capture what was great about gw1, but some changes did need to happen.

maybe ill get some good conversation out of this:

i played prophecies, when factions came out i sorta kept on playing monk but i quit worrying about the meta some, and eventually quit. (graduated highschool, got a job, so forth).

it seemed to me at the time that the assasins shadow step abilities were really wreaking havoc on the meta, in a bad way. a number of builds were being developed that could solo the guild lord or at least all his guards and had too much mocement to really be punished for an attempt (keeping one for one busy)

Did it pan out that way?

alcopaul.2156:

KarlaGrey.5903:

And that makes its decline, and the accompanying decrease in quality, all the more tragic. Much like the fact it is/was way ahead of its time. I cannot help but wonder how its fate would look like, had it been created years later, in the era when streaming and esports became a big thing.

It was packaged as Magic the Gathering on a pc. You have tons of skills that makes it possible for tons of builds to be created. But sad move is sad move, they started favoring the balanced setup. So anything (smite, spikes, thumpers, spearchuckers, iway, spirit ways, what-ever ways, etc. FoTMs) that does not look balanced and beat balanced was killed. Why? Because balanced was what the leet Koreans ran and they excelled at it. They made it the must learn template and glorified it. So bad move is bad move.

then matches became balanced vs balanced, most mirror matches and the only difference is a class or two. it became boring. 2 monks is a must. and those who ran it defended it that it requires skill to run and anything else is noob or overpowered. Glass cannon builds, which term i only heard when i played GW2, already exist since 2005 GW1 and they were killed. Defensive ball builds already exist since 2005 GW1 and it was not permitted to grow. Only kittening balanced build is favored.

I bet if GW1 was released this days, it would be a different one. with the days of reddit and powerful social media, peoples opinion will matter more. more open mindedness and less dependence on a small circle of balanced runners from the skill balancers. Sure decay was expected because there was no growth. no moving on beyond balanced, just forcing everyone to run it. And those who first ran balanced successfully didn’t stay for 5-7 years. They quit. People quit. Sure the tactics in balanced evolved but it can only evolve at a certain point.

In short, those skill balances favoring one build template/setup and ensued mirror matches destroyed GW1. Again, thanks Izzy for listening to QQs. You killed diversity and fun in Guild Wars One. Now it’s dead and these balanced runners want it back. I will LOL if this happens.

I agree, and for this reason I preferred to run tombs over GvG. Hey I was the boon prot monk when we played GvG. We ran balanced. but we also wrote blood spike and first tried it on the lava guild hall. (between seasons mind you)

cuge.5398:

Mammoth.1975:

Assyrian.4827:

just type this in Google or YouTube and enjoy:

Guild Wars GvG : rawr vs KMD

Nice vid. It reminds me though, if you look at gw1 videos from the perspective of someone who never played it, you’d have no idea what is going on there. Great coordination, but unless you play, you just wouldn’t even realise. Spikes are so fun to watch though.

Yeh, exactly, i watched it but with all those speed up/slow down, quick pov change, i really couldnt understand much, i can just guess something about the game from what ppl say here…. so far seems to me it was more focused on teamwork in the fight, with more supportive spells and stuff like that.
I would definitely appreciate if gw2 could offer some easier way to support eachother in a teamfight, i mean, there are already some great examples of this, but its really hard to achieve it cause the gameplay is really fast, thus its more focused on players being self sufficient and then teamwork comes into play as an added good.
Its quite hard to support the team here, and most of that support plays around the downed state, interrupting stompers, ressing the downed or stealthing it to prevent stomping…
It wont be bad to have some more “decisive” support skills, that would exalt a coordinated team, like being able to make a teammate invulnerable, or cleansing conditions from him (there are ways to do this, but usually its just 1).

Quoted for the truth.
I never played GW1, but it is boring as hell to watch and it so confusing to watch as hell. Although all that,I went to research and found out its mechanics and gameplay to understand the game. I think what make GvG is that the game have a few objective that can lead a team to victory instead of measly waiting for the point to tick and sitting on points. Next like what cuge pointed out, in gw1 you can feel how other profession can help support another teammate with heals,cleansing, debuff, buffs etc in the slower pace game, but in gw2 everything seems more about self proficiency. Although from the pro team gameplay, i can see a lot of team work and support dishing out to the team but what lack if that feeling of that major spell that save your team, stopped you from dying, lock down a person that won the fight and so on. I think if they could make the all profession Elite skill more game changer, make it some what defining and important and powerful in a team fight would help a lot in this game in term of support and oh wow moment. Like a well timed time warp or moa, a good supply drop that disable a team that help won the fight and not like Ele stupid elementalist with thier larger health poll and somewhat increase dmg pet that got clone up from thier utility skill that barely does anything amazing.

Motoko.2875:

alcopaul.2156:

Watching GW1 PvP this days after 8 years, is like still using your Nokia 5110 as your cell phone this time of the year. The game mechanics is old. it is not dynamic. it’s point and click. And the CCs are archaic. They say it’s complicated but i don’t see the complication. Maybe it’s just rigid, well it’s rigid because everything is rigid. Yeah you dshotted or powerblocked infuse health. Sure your skilled. But you’re indeed skilled if you did this on a dialup connection.

It is nothing like that at all. The combat mechanics and the way the game is designed is eternities ahead of any MOBA. HoN, DotA, LoL are the only things that come remotely close to it. The game is old, the mechanics are not. The game is not point in click. You don’t see the complication because you never played the game at a high level. The way you describe integration between dshot/powerblock and infuse health doesn’t define skill. You can’t reflex interupting infuse. The game has much more than that and that is why more people still play GW1 PvP than GW2 s/tPvP.

alcopaul.2156:

I’m the one of the many (i hope) that appreciates the more dynamic and more tactical gameplay of GW2. And this is coming from someone who don’t play tPvP. I watched Team Paradigm and the shoutcasts and I appreciated their skill level and the skill level of their enemies even. it’s fast paced. unpredictable. And concise. No kittenty things such as tie breaker or killing an NPC to win. It’s easy to watch. Easy to follow. Just like every other sports but scrabble. Moreover, The game doesn’t depend on killing an NPC.

You are in the minority. If that copy cat guild can ever be a successful GW1 guild, I’ll give them props. GW2 is no more concise than GW1. In fact, I’d say it is less concise as you need 8 coordinated players as opposed to just 5. To kill an NPC in GW1 you have to outplay your opponent. It isn’t PvE. And the game makes much more sense and is more thrilling than any GW2 play so far.

Again you are showing that you are really unfamiliar with high level play in GW1.

Note – Team Paradigm took their name from a GvG guild that I ran back in GW1 in 2008. Still never understood their fanaticism with my guild.

alcopaul.2156:

I’ve played my share of GW1 gvgs and most of the time we won even at 60 dp because we kittening killed an NPC.

r2000 GvGs don’t count. Again you are showing that you are really unfamiliar with high level play in GW1.

alcopaul.2156:

But one thing that made GW1 GvG a poignant mark on my gaming memory. War Machine [WM] versus Lamer’s Ultimate Majority [LuM]. Everyother matches don’t even compare.

These were good matches. Sadly it occured a little bit before I started PvP.

Everything coming out of your mouth is from that of someone who was never an exceptional player at Guild Wars 1 PvP. I am not trying to be insulting or rude by repeating that statement to you – It is my assessment based on your statements. Your argument isn’t strong and has a ton of inaccuracies and a lot of opinions based on your lack of understanding of GW1 and your opinion that you think you understand GW2 PvP at the apex of its competitive performance.

That pretty much discredit’s your entire argument.

I just want to clear one thing up, we used the name “Team Paradigm” before we even knew about the existence of your guild, but if you are as pompous as to believe that we are trying to steal your guild name etc, then your very deluded.

(We were informed about the existence about a former team in Guildwars 1 with the same name, and after doing our research had found it had been inactive for a long period of time and it didn’t have any overwhelming achievements, therefore we decided to continue using the name; its quit sad that you believe we were trying to steal it; actually to tell you the truth not a single person has even asked us if we were the guild from Guildwars 1.)

I would also like to say, that if you don’t like the game and prefer guildwars 1 then there is no need to harp about it on the forums, the game will never change that drastically so to suit your tastes. People tend to enjoy different things, and the fact is you don’t enjoy guildwars 2, while others do, trying to enforce an opinion on other people while not really be fruitful.

I personally played Guildwars 1 at release, and didn’t find that it was a game that I personally enjoyed so I just stopped playing it.

Talking about major balance and design changes is moot because it has to pass with the PVE team first.

That is the core problem with sPvP – everything has to be designed in a way that ensures PVE remains balanced.

Hence we get conquest map after conquest map while none of the mechanics or classes really change.

Players are leaving? Give them a new map and call that progress.

KrisHQ.4719:

So many GW1-Worshippers. Did you honestly expect GW2 to be exactly like GW1?

Being sad a sequel to a game doesn’t at all appeal to fans of the first… makes sense, no?

garethh.3518:

Being sad a sequel to a game doesn’t at all appeal to the population of the first… makes sense, no?

No, it doesn’t appeal to some of the population of the first. There are some of us that are perfectly happy with GW2, we just aren’t so passionate about it as people who vehemently hate it.

KrisHQ.4719:

So many GW1-Worshippers. Did you honestly expect GW2 to be exactly like GW1?

Simply put…yes. Why would you change something that isn’t broken? Its like Capcom vastly changing the formula of Street Fighter from what people have been use to all of these years. The only thing they do is add and take away different mechanics from the game, but they never change the basic formula.

GW1 was intended to be a pvp game from the start….pve was suppose to be something that you did to understand the gameplay mechanics I think. I don’t think Anet ever intended for a strong pve following but it happened.

GW2 is the total opposite, built for pve experience from the ground up with pvp as a bonus. They felt gw1 pvp was too complex and just chopped it all together because they wanted to get more casuals into the pvp playing field. But people who like pve will prefer pve over pvp regardless of how simple they make it.

But yes, if they had taken the gw1 pvp formula and added dodge and jump to it, that would of been a more ideal progression of the system. But to take away: build variety, strategy, team work, game modes, to take away everything, is just too much.

When the answer to how to counter other players in this game is to dodge 90% of the time, then it shows you how very very simple the game is in comparison to the original.

Aza.2105:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Former-rank-1-GvG-GW1-talks-GW2-competitive/page/3#post2047229

Well. It would be waste to create a whole new game which is basically just GW1 with better graphics.
They have already created the mechanics for GW1 and naturally they wanted to try something different. They looked at the flaws GW1 pvp had and tried fixing those.
That is for instance the viewer-friendlyness. And imo GW2 is much easier to spectate than GW1.
If the way GW2 turned out is not for you, that is a shame but fortunately GW1 is still accessible and teams are still playing.
I agree that GW2 has a long way to go, and maybe we need a new game-mode before it takes off. That said, i do not believe GW2 has kittenty pvp.

@Xeph

You do realize, in 2005 when GW1 came out, esports didn’t exist. You also realize that Guildwars had a $100,000 tournament in 2005.

I play a real sport called soccer, I love the sport and I would say I am at least above average at it. I enjoy the sport because you need a team, it invokes adrenaline, and it takes skill. Certainly, many people sit around in the U.S. and don’t understand soccer for one second, but yet it is a beautiful sport. For a matter of fact, it is the most popular sport in the world. Yet, near no one understands at first attempt, or even second at that.

GvG is a game that gives me a similar sensation to soccer when I play it. I feel like I am taking part in a team, like I am working together and that my team depends on me on a level far higher than can I win a 1v1 or live to a 2v1. Gw1 even had a sense of adrenaline, I PRACTICED for GvG. I played that game for just over 5 years since beta and it is something I have never found a mate too.

There is a consideration one must make when making games, complexity versus skill cap. You need to create a game with as little complexity as possible but as high a skill cap as possible. Problem is that complexity and skill cap are often interwoven together. In GW1, the skill cap was extremely high but Anet did nothing to ever lower the complexity of the game making it impossible to learn. They assumed the complexity and skill cap were the same thing and to make it easy for people to join, they just needed to make it less complex, what do we get? A game that has a skill cap orders of magnitude smaller.

(Oh, and btw, I did wonder if Team Paridigm was the same guild from Guildwars 1. )

Xeph.4513:

GW1 was never an esport, infact there is only a handful of games that can be considered an esport, GW1 had a highly competitive community that enjoyed playing it, because the playstyle suited them and they enjoyed the overall mechanics of it.
The fact that you enjoyed GW1 and didn’t enjoy GW2 doesn’t make it by any means less competitive then GW1.

eSports weren’t really advertised to any type of game other than first person shooters. Guild Wars broke that barrier. It is the reason you started playing GW2 in the first place. GW1 PvP was eSport quality and garnered a fanbase worthy to call it an eSport along with the real life prizes that came with it.
You’re right. Its the fact that THOUSANDS of other players enjoyed it and don’t enjoy GW2 PvP that make it more competitive.

Xeph.4513:

Fact is every game has a core competitive base, no matter how small it is, it remains competitive, and I find no pleasure in going on forum just to inform them that the game I previously played was more competitive then the one they are playing, its something they enjoy playing therefore they may continue to do so.

If you don’t enjoy the GW2, pvp formula then don’t play it, I am sure no one has put a gun to your head and asked you to do so, I personally find it more engaging then the previous GW1 playstyle, but that’s just me, I don’t need to come on the forums and harp about it nor do I wish to compare the two because the difference is so vast there is no point in doing so.

Fact is you need to respect other people’s opinions on the matter, there is no real point in trying to sway their opinion or try and even compare two systems that are as different as day and night, there just isn’t a point and no conclusion will be reached.

Great, you are part of the very small minority that find GW2 PvP competitive and actually play it.

“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” (Give it a few months and that few will turn into the one)

I respect opinions perfectly fine. You need to stop making assumptions so quickly. Wrong ones for that matter.

Xeph.4513:

Also I find it kind of sad, that you go around accusing people of stealing your guildname, but then again that’s also a reflection of the kind of person I am posting to, and I do realise my efforts are wasted on someone who obviously doesn’t understand how pompous and arrogant he sounds when he makes such an accusation.

All in all, don’t waste your breath and move on, look for a different game that you can hopefully enjoy as much as you have GW1 cause obviously GW2 isn’t it.

There are so many comments in this section that are assumptions and just plain silly. But I suppose my input has illicited an emotional response from you. The mistake you are making is that you think I care at all about the guild name. I feel like I might have to simplify my posts to you so you can understand them. I guess you could say I should “GW2 PvP” my posts so they are dumbed down for you.

Your efforts are wasted hoping GW2 will turn into any eSport you fantasize it to be. Get over it.

Aza.2105:

Simply put…yes. Why would you change something that isn’t broken? Its like Capcom vastly changing the formula of Street Fighter from what people have been use to all of these years. The only thing they do is add and take away different mechanics from the game, but they never change the basic formula.

GW1 was intended to be a pvp game from the start….pve was suppose to be something that you did to understand the gameplay mechanics I think. I don’t think Anet ever intended for a strong pve following but it happened.

GW2 is the total opposite, built for pve experience from the ground up with pvp as a bonus. They felt gw1 pvp was too complex and just chopped it all together because they wanted to get more casuals into the pvp playing field. But people who like pve will prefer pve over pvp regardless of how simple they make it.

But yes, if they had taken the gw1 pvp formula and added dodge and jump to it, that would of been a more ideal progression of the system. But to take away: build variety, strategy, team work, game modes, to take away everything, is just too much.

This is a very accurate post. A lot of people still don’t understand the fundamentals that GW1 was based off of. If anything – I know a large majority of people were essentially hoping for GW1 with updated graphics and a fresh start. Hence that large majority has left this game. As much as I want ANET to succeed with GW2 and turn it into the game it should have been – I really want to see them crash and burn – To learn the hard way.

Diage.6451:

@Xeph

You do realize, in 2005 when GW1 came out, esports didn’t exist. You also realize that Guildwars had a $100,000 tournament in 2005.

I play a real sport called soccer, I love the sport and I would say I am at least above average at it. I enjoy the sport because you need a team, it invokes adrenaline, and it takes skill. Certainly, many people sit around in the U.S. and don’t understand soccer for one second, but yet it is a beautiful sport. For a matter of fact, it is the most popular sport in the world. Yet, near no one understands at first attempt, or even second at that.

GvG is a game that gives me a similar sensation to soccer when I play it. I feel like I am taking part in a team, like I am working together and that my team depends on me on a level far higher than can I win a 1v1 or live to a 2v1. Gw1 even had a sense of adrenaline, I PRACTICED for GvG. I played that game for just over 5 years since beta and it is something I have never found a mate too.

There is a consideration one must make when making games, complexity versus skill cap. You need to create a game with as little complexity as possible but as high a skill cap as possible. Problem is that complexity and skill cap are often interwoven together. In GW1, the skill cap was extremely high but Anet did nothing to ever lower the complexity of the game making it impossible to learn. They assumed the complexity and skill cap were the same thing and to make it easy for people to join, they just needed to make it less complex, what do we get? A game that has a skill cap orders of magnitude smaller.

(Oh, and btw, I did wonder if Team Paridigm was the same guild from Guildwars 1. )

I concur with your post entirely.

Thank you for that

KrisHQ.4719:

Aza.2105:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Former-rank-1-GvG-GW1-talks-GW2-competitive/page/3#post2047229

Well. It would be waste to create a whole new game which is basically just GW1 with better graphics.
They have already created the mechanics for GW1 and naturally they wanted to try something different. They looked at the flaws GW1 pvp had and tried fixing those.
That is for instance the viewer-friendlyness. And imo GW2 is much easier to spectate than GW1.
If the way GW2 turned out is not for you, that is a shame but fortunately GW1 is still accessible and teams are still playing.
I agree that GW2 has a long way to go, and maybe we need a new game-mode before it takes off. That said, i do not believe GW2 has kittenty pvp.

Then the game should of been called something else. Here is the description of gw1:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars

Some key quotes:

The first campaign of Guild Wars, Guild Wars Prophecies was released on April 28, 2005. The different genre was chosen (as opposed to the classic “Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) RPG”) due to the perceived differences between the game and other, more traditional MMOs: the focus on Player versus Player (PvP) rather than Player versus Environment (PvE) play made it almost a unique case at the time.

and another:

“The game was designed from the ground up to be a competitive multi-player experience, focusing on high-level combat between two or more parties focusing more on player skill and innovative play rather than equipment, time played or sheer numbers, a stark contrast to other MMOs of the time. The game introduced revolutionary concepts such as protection and allowed casters to spend the majority of a fight casting. Other MMOs of the time relied on defensive characters out-healing their opponent’s damage in what amounted to be a “red-barring” contest that focused less on skill and more on level and attrition. Additionally, casters were often forced to spend significant portions of every fight waiting for (the equivalents of) energy to regenerate or skills to recharge. Guild Wars changed this by introducing effective forms of energy management, such as Attunements and Inspiration Magic, as well as a considerably higher rate of regeneration (and lower maximum energy pool) than other games allowed."

I guess to summarize it, GW2 is everything GW1 is not. And for pvp, that is a bad thing. Pve however needed to be changed to appeal to more people.

@xeph : …… I don’t even know what to say about what you wrote… just check “korean teams” thread.

There is no competitive scene in gw2 right now because there is no infrastructure for competition. There are top teams, but that doesn’t make a competitive scene.

It might change with custom arenas, but for 7 months we had nothing. And you don’t grow a pvp community out of nothing in one month. Let’s hope the guru tournament initiates the growth.

Also, with maybe the exception of Motoko and a few other hardcore fans, most of us do not want a remake of gw1. I’d even go as far as to say that we are happy with gw2 combat.

Our main concern is the lack of team interaction, which is due IMO to:
- the pace of the fights
- the visual effects
- skill design

And the reason why we’re referring to gw1 all the time is because GvG found the most unique and amazing formula for all above 3 points, it was the pinnacle of team play.

And because we care about gw2 we write all this hoping the devs read us and acknowledge that gw2 can be improved (with some gw1 elements we hope!!)

Aza.2105:

Simply put…yes. Why would you change something that isn’t broken?

Skill balancers didn’t skill balance but killed variety of builds. Skill balances, ever heard that? Why are you unaware of this?

It’s damaged beyond repair. Thus GW2, a complete overhaul.

alcopaul.2156:

Aza.2105:

Simply put…yes. Why would you change something that isn’t broken?

Skill balancers didn’t skill balance but killed variety of builds. Skill balances, ever heard that? Why are you unaware of this?

It’s damaged beyond repair. Thus GW2, a complete overhaul.

And how does GW2 remedy that? Its the same but far worse, since there is no variety. All this does is leave players at the feet of the devs asking them for mercy, to fix their class. Its a sad state when its considered good that a class has one viable build. Meaning we might as well not have builds at all in game.

Or if a class is unlucky like warriors, they have none. When was that ever the case in gw1?

You seem to be an intelligent person Motoko, but you are so pedantic it makes your posts look silly:p

To stay on topic with the OP: if you want to organize something like this, good on ya. Attention to the PvP scene would hopefully draw some much needed dev attention, which is ultimately what this dismal aspect of the game desperately needs.

However, I don’t think you’ll succeed at reviving the game in this way. People aren’t playing because the game is difficult to spectate, or even because organized tournaments aren’t happening. Focusing on these aspects now is a waste of time.

The game suffers from much deeper flaws that others in this thread have been pointing out – flaws that the devs have quite intentionally been ignoring. If your proposed ideas are to do any good at all, it would be to spark an interest within the developers to actually address and correct these flaws, which I don’t believe will happen. The flaws are too ingrained within the game itself; too much correcting would need to be done.

Since launch, the gameplay of GW2 has been moving farther and farther from that of its predecessor. The hordes of excited GW1 fans under the impression that a second coming of god-tier PvP was upon them were immensely let down, and are no longer playing (myself included). They’ve already essentially lost they’re greatest playerbase. The worst part of all? GW1 holds many fixes that, if properly implemented, could have not only retained this playerbase, but also fostered the fresh new designs that GW2 did actually bring to the table.

Examples?

Team play:
Anyone from GW1 will tell you that comparatively, GW2 has some very weak teamplay – I personally think that this game becomes more and more like an FPS with each update. Any coordination in GW2 revolve around allocating players to capture/hold the most points (and other minor objectives). In GW1, while such coordinations were also extremely necessary, the teamplay that the vets ceaselessly harp on lie within the combat itself. Each player in the group consciously worked to sustain their fellow members, crack their opponents defense, all while analyzing the offences and strategies of the opposing group. The extreme inter-connectivity of the groups coupled with the many dynamic builds and strategies are what made the game truly unique. The combat in GW2 has taken very broad steps away from this notion. Battles in this game are basically between two groups of self-sufficient players doing there own thing in unison. Players therefore choose their builds with little consideration towards a team unit, and play with little consideration towards a team unit. The diversity of roles one can take in this game is greatly diminished as a result. This is mostly due to a good new mechanic improperly implemented:

Removal of the holy trinity:
A lot of serious PvPers now cite this as a bad idea, but I think it could work – just not the way that GW2 has done it so far. Removing dedicated class roles is a fresh idea that could have been a very positive addition to the Guild Wars formula (no more spamming for X amount of monks.) However, as garethh has already said, they failed to replace it with anything (lol @ downstate as a replacement; I’m surprised it’s been considered as one). What SHOULD have happened is that each class would be given access to all the different mechanics with their own unique variations, and therefore could potentially fill any role in their own way (as in, anyone could be the group’s healer, DPS, tank, etc.) Instead, GW2 scrapped major healing in of party members in favor for a self-sufficient system of self healing, all while keeping different classes pigeon-holed to certain roles. The holy trinity has become a holy duality between spike builds and bunker builds, with only minor variation and very little potential for teamplay.

This could potentially be corrected using the system already in place. Nearly all classes do possess a quasi-support role of some sort, the problem is that they’re much to weak to sustain a team against DPS that is much too strong. In my opinion DPS should be lowered across the board, and each class’s unique support build/abilities should be made more powerful in the context of team play. Furthermore, each class should have a viable means of shutting down said support, as well as other interesting role options (again, look to GW1 for inspiration here). The trick is that each player can’t do all these things at once, but would rather assume a role in a group that may accomplish all these things. The best part is, as each class’s mechanisms for each role differ, a wide variety of team building is made possible. This was my initial hope for the removal of the trinity, and is completely doable in the system already implemented in this game – with some intense tweaks and balancing issues, of course.

In my opinion, this would be a biggest step ANet could take towards reviving the incredible and unique PvP of GW1, all while retaining the ideas they have made for the new game. There are plenty of other excellent ideas in this thread alone to improve and add to the gameplay, but they will ultimately still fail without a change to the core mechanics, such as I’ve proposed. However, once again I doubt that any of this will be considered by ANet as their priorities have been screwed from the beginning, and I personally don’t believe that will change.

On a side note, I’ve been very shocked and slightly appalled that a system similar to HA hasn’t been implemented in tPvP or even sPvP. For those unfamiliar, HA was a form of tournament where your team progresses through a series of maps playing teams that have made it as far as you have, until you reach the final map which you hold indefinitely until you’ve lost. It’s single-elimination, and the reward for winning on each map progressively increases. Hell, I could see this working a lot better than the tournament or hotjoin we have now, even with the current maps and single game mode we have now. How oh how was this not considered? And don’t even get me started with the lack of GvG or a guild ladder. /angry rant

tl;dr – Good luck OP, I don’t think it’ll work because the game’s mechanics are flawed more so than it’s lack of organized tournament play, but it doesn’t matter because it’s working as the devs intended.

Also @alcopaul, no offence, but I find it kind of silly that you ran with the IWAY exclusive [MATH] yet pretend to know the intricacies behind GW1 PvP.

Just sayin’.