Guild Wars 2

Angry Flying Squirrel.3041:

You don’t really get it do you. For every pro sports teams there are 10’s of teams that make nothing. Pro sport players are the minority in every single sport on the planet.

So are the top teams of a pvp scene. they are a minority too. so idk what’s the point of your side comment.

i keep on emphasizing the top pro teams getting paid or all perks (e.g. fame) because that’s the ultimate goal, right? and these rewards are mainly because of the viewers/spectators. you know why jordan is paid more than a player from washington bullets? because jordan performs well. and his performance is evident on the court. it is the first thing that a spectator can see, that jordan is making superb plays and kitten. this leads many to idolize him, or give him rave reviews, or make a tribute youtube out of his plays. and from this his value skyrockets and sponsorship and such follows. charisma is void without the people who look up to you.

if jordan is playing curling and is good in curling, the scenario changes. because who watches curling? almost no one.

you could argue that curling requires more strategy than basketball. but just look at the numbers – the people who WATCH basketball are far more than the people who watch curling.

Spectators are the majority. And these spectators are the ones who will try the sport/game if they are convinced with what they watched. And since this is an internet game, almost everyone with all shapes and sizes will do it.

Consistent top teams will emerge in GW2 pvp scene if this whole thing kicks off. And they will be talked about, possibly featured in Gamer sites and such. They will have e-fame and get all the cash prizes from tourneys. They will be spectated by many. And from the spectators, there will be people who will say, “I want to be like them, get the e-fame and cash and the groupies.” or say “I wanna beat Team Paradigm in the future.”

So, it appears as if the problem we’re stuck at is an age-old debate that popped on forums everywhere when Anet first introduced their PvP for gw2.

Why would someone watch a professional player? I mean, the player makes money because people watch them, if no one watched them, they wouldn’t make the money. So obviously there has to be a joy to the viewer about watching it, however, I know a lot of people who don’t enjoy watching soccer because it looks “Boring.” Soccer is the most popular sport in the world. Something is amiss somewhere.

It comes from, (in my opinion) a mix of factors, soccer already has an infrastructure and respect there. It is challenging to the athletes and new comers. And people idolize the pros.

I play soccer, and I am not a pro. I make no money (in fact I pay to play.) Why? I should also mention I don’t observer any soccer games, I don’t know a single famous soccer player other than Beckam (assuming I spelled his name right.) I enjoy the game for what it is and it is a place where I find a team and something which no one can ever perfect. There is no upper boundary to how good someone in Soccer can be and that is nice because I know I can always improve. I also enjoy the competition and know that it was nothing more than skill alone that caused me to beat someone, not some contrived RNG or factors that were arbitrarily decided for me.

In a game, you must challenge the pros at every level. A game cannot be simple to master and depend only on luck when it comes down to it. GW1 was a game you could not master, it is why I played it for a little over 5 years. Each year, I progressed skill wise and got better at the game. The competition kept it exciting, it wasn’t until that competition left that I left.

The point here is that GW2 gameplay offers no real struggle. I felt as if I mastered it after a day and a half of pvp. Any loss came from something which was predetermined (I.E. there is no way for me to defeat X) or though some combination of luck (crits.) The only thing left was just who was where, and that sort of sport offers no personal achievement. I don’t feel as if I mastered a thing while playing guildwars 2, I just feel like I got as good as everyone else and the rest were in the cards.

In regards to observing, for observers to enjoy the game, they need a team to be behind and they need to idolize them for their achievements. If I watch a player and I know I can do just as good as him, I do not idolize him. If the best teams don’t stick around because there is no competition to them, you can’t build a fan base.

Just remember, Soccer is fun to watch because you understand how difficult it is. Those who don’t understand that, don’t watch it.

O, and there are a a few other points about what makes a game fun to observe, but they aren’t relevant to this discussion.

EDIT: Added – I argued elsewhere about 7 months ago that one of the greatest failures for GW1 pvp was a terribly implemented observer mode. That mode made the game actually more confusing to watch than it was to play. Everything happened almost magically and you had no way to determine who was pressured unless you yourself were already a pro. I am confident that an extremely informative observer mode would of changed the face of GW1 if implemented in it’s prime.

alcopaul.2156:

Assyrian.4827:

Millions watch soccer because it is a fun game to play? yes
ppl have fun playing soccer because millions watch it? no

Millions watch soccer because it is a fun game to watch. Not everybody can play soccer but even those who don’t play soccer watch soccer (Most of the soccer analysts and shoutcasters didn’t even play any soccer but studied it academically). Know why? because it is a fun game to watch. And that’s the first step. Appeal to the spectators. Then that spectator can buy a soccer ball and try a few tricks in his back yard. Then he may sign up in his varsity. Etc Etc.

Professional soccer players have fun playing soccer not only for the sake of fun, but also from their pay. Popular teams have better sponsorship or extra pay from their merchandise. It’s a popularity contest between individual players too. And this won’t happen without people who watch them, buy their stuff, talk highly of them or make a viral blogpost about them.

Professional players have fun playing soccer because the millions of people who watch it makes it popular, carrying them players. When it’s popular, there is pouring of $$$, sponsorship and fame. And when it’s popular, people will try to play it in a vacant lot or even setup their own amateur league. and that’s by the millions.

This is how you grow a sport, or an e-sport even.

What made soccer a popular game because it was fun to play. People started watching it.
What will make GW2 pvp popular when it is fun to play.

Assyrian.4827:

alcopaul.2156:

Assyrian.4827:

Millions watch soccer because it is a fun game to play? yes
ppl have fun playing soccer because millions watch it? no

Millions watch soccer because it is a fun game to watch. Not everybody can play soccer but even those who don’t play soccer watch soccer (Most of the soccer analysts and shoutcasters didn’t even play any soccer but studied it academically). Know why? because it is a fun game to watch. And that’s the first step. Appeal to the spectators. Then that spectator can buy a soccer ball and try a few tricks in his back yard. Then he may sign up in his varsity. Etc Etc.

Professional soccer players have fun playing soccer not only for the sake of fun, but also from their pay. Popular teams have better sponsorship or extra pay from their merchandise. It’s a popularity contest between individual players too. And this won’t happen without people who watch them, buy their stuff, talk highly of them or make a viral blogpost about them.

Professional players have fun playing soccer because the millions of people who watch it makes it popular, carrying them players. When it’s popular, there is pouring of $$$, sponsorship and fame. And when it’s popular, people will try to play it in a vacant lot or even setup their own amateur league. and that’s by the millions.

This is how you grow a sport, or an e-sport even.

What made soccer a popular game because it was fun to play. People started watching it.
What will make GW2 pvp popular when it is fun to play.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/45040-5-reason-why-soccer-draws-people-in

look at point 2 and 1.

Definitely why it is the most popular game in the world.

Translated: it’s noob friendly. the mechanics are not quantum physics nor calculus or complicated, as GW1 players claim GW1 to be.

soccer is about more than just sports entertainment, it is marketed nationalism that bolsters pride in the form of economic prosperity.

what spectators want: world wrestling entertainment
what athletes want:body, mind, and soul improving competition to be the best they can be.

can you smell what the nak is cookin?

REAL LIFE SPORTS DO NOT PARALLEL OVER TO ESPORTS.
/endconversation

alcopaul.2156:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/45040-5-reason-why-soccer-draws-people-in

look at point 2 and 1.

Definitely why it is the most popular game in the world.

Translated: it’s noob friendly. the mechanics are not quantum physics nor calculus or complicated, as GW1 players claim GW1 to be.

You mistake complication with skill cap.

Any game, every game even, needs to be made with a dynamic of complication against skill cap in mind. Your game should have as high a skill cap as possible with the smallest possible amount of complication. There are decisions that can make a game hard to master and are easy to understand and that sort of action should be added because it is low complication but high skill cap.

Guildwars 1 was complicated in some regards, yes. But it had a good skill cap. The hope was that Guildwars 2 would keep a high skill cap but reduce the complexity, instead they just reduced both the complexity AND the skill cap. So now we are left with a mind numbing game, which is fine for a lot of people, but it won’t attract competitive players because competitive players thrive on games with a high skill cap.

Low complexity helps get viewers, high skill cap helps get professionals. You need both to win.

Farmville has better odds at becoming esport. GW2, balanced or not, is simply boring.

No variety

No healers/protters

No incentive to win (rewards? Lol what rewards?)

Bad game mode – conquest is just atrocious worst I’ve ever seen, bored me on day 1.

No customization – sure you can choose between glass cannon or bunker. The game doesn’t even let us switch our weapon skills out…wut??? They actually took choices out of the game instead of adding.. that is like… regression, right?

And most importantly, it isn’t Guild Wars.

Just a few, among thousands of problems.

Diage.6451:

Low complexity helps get viewers, high skill cap helps get professionals. You need both to win.

A.NET is doing the right formula here, IMHO. They “lowered the complexity” for it to become appealing to new players and viewers.

I won’t comment on the skill cap thing since I don’t play tPvP and belong to top teams like MiM, TCG or TP. All I can say the the skill cap of any game will just go higher and won’t reach its cap if there is actually quality competition going. The tactics and the way that the game is played will evolve over time. Prolly 2 years from now, we might see different tactics being employed.

And let’s be real. Professionals do it for the $$$ and fame. Why do you want to be good? Coz you want to be talked about, popular and rich even. There are professionals in respective sports. And you know what, here are the top 2 of the World’s Highest paid athlete.

1
Floyd Mayweather
$85 M $85 M $0 M Boxing
2
Manny Pacquiao
$62 M $56 M $6 M Boxing

http://www.forbes.com/athletes/list/

What they do is not complicated. They just punch each other. And it is exciting to watch.

EDIT: I don’t mean to talk low of boxing. It’s one of my favorite sports actually. Sure it requires a lot from a boxer to be on top of the game but let’s face it, anybody can throw a punch. To land it successfully, requires skill though. And I’m hoping for a Pacman-Mayweather fight to happen.

alcopaul.2156:

What they do is not complicated. They just punch each other. And it is exciting to watch.

Please stop responding to this nonsense.
This thread had a purpose and point.

alcopaul.2156:

no man, you dismiss my opinions because i’m from MATH and i’m just an avid spectator and evaluate something through careful observation. and now i’m a troll.

i loled.

I’m afraid he dismissees them because you qualify for what is normally termed a lost cause.
As already mentioned, it is rather predictable GW2 pvp is your kind of thing, because your GW1 experience is limited to IWAY (whether by choice or by lack thereof), which is one of the builds closest to GW2 pvp style of play. As it is, I don’t think you ‘got most’ out of GW1 pvp that way, which is also why you cannot fathom the glaring deficiencies GW2 displays in that regard.

i really don’t get why alcopaul keeps posting. he just keeps pounding at the argument that games get popular because people watch them. which is an amazingly vapid thought. games get popular because people like the gameplay. people watch the game because they enjoy it and it’s exciting to them. excitement comes from having a skill cap that allows for interesting and unexpected turn arounds. pro players make interesting things happen, which makes people want to watch them.

if the game is not interesting to competitive players, then there is no one interesting to watch.

when u were a child and your parents asked you if u wanted to play some sports, did u choose by viewer or just by what would u have enojyed most?

alcopaul.2156:

Diage.6451:

Low complexity helps get viewers, high skill cap helps get professionals. You need both to win.

A.NET is doing the right formula here, IMHO. They “lowered the complexity” for it to become appealing to new players and viewers.

I won’t comment on the skill cap thing since I don’t play tPvP and belong to top teams like MiM, TCG or TP. All I can say the the skill cap of any game will just go higher and won’t reach its cap if there is actually quality competition going. The tactics and the way that the game is played will evolve over time. Prolly 2 years from now, we might see different tactics being employed.

And let’s be real. Professionals do it for the $$$ and fame. Why do you want to be good? Coz you want to be talked about, popular and rich even. There are professionals in respective sports. And you know what, here are the top 2 of the World’s Highest paid athlete.

1
Floyd Mayweather
$85 M $85 M $0 M Boxing
2
Manny Pacquiao
$62 M $56 M $6 M Boxing

http://www.forbes.com/athletes/list/

What they do is not complicated. They just punch each other. And it is exciting to watch.

EDIT: I don’t mean to talk low of boxing. It’s one of my favorite sports actually. Sure it requires a lot from a boxer to be on top of the game but let’s face it, anybody can throw a punch. To land it successfully, requires skill though. And I’m hoping for a Pacman-Mayweather fight to happen.

Boxing isn’t complicated? Lets see you go in the ring so you can get rocked and knocked out lmao. Its not called the “sweet science” for nothing. Boxing my friend is quite complex. I can’t believe you are comparing it to a game, guild wars 2 at that!

Also, anytime you need to water something down to attract a multitude of people, then you know its bad. Its kind of like what has happened to many games today, you know when they become consolized. Example:

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_super/6/68178/2077570-fps_map_design.jpg

This applies to gw2 as well. Except the old map would represent the intricate details of the original system, lots of variety and options. The new map is a lot like gw2. Anet decides how you will play and there is only one build per class. In other words everything has become very very simple hidden under the facade of eye candy.

Shukran.4851:

when u were a child and your parents asked you if u wanted to play some sports, did u choose by viewer or just by what would u have enojyed most?

I guess in your world people watch things they dont enjoy.

milo.6942:

i really don’t get why alcopaul keeps posting. he just keeps pounding at the argument that games get popular because people watch them. which is an amazingly vapid thought. games get popular because people like the gameplay. people watch the game because they enjoy it and it’s exciting to them. excitement comes from having a skill cap that allows for interesting and unexpected turn arounds. pro players make interesting things happen, which makes people want to watch them.

if the game is not interesting to competitive players, then there is no one interesting to watch.

i don’t know man. you have to separate the two sectors of a community and honestly describe their roles better. Sure competitive players make a sport exciting. But the interest to watch a sport only comes from the viewer, if he thinks what he watches is exciting. There are many factors, but mainly if the sport is easy to watch, easy to follow, and skill level of both players can be recognized, which is basically through scores and kitten.

And anyway, I don’t by any means disrespect boxing. it was almost a sarcasm. It requires training and skill to be the best in it. But the mechanics of boxing is can be almost done by anybody for it requires basically three acts – move around, avoid punches, land punches. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWq7xe5HOq0. And the goal is to score points or to land a KO, which is analogous to what GW2 is (maintain cap to get points or team wipe them after respawn to get more points and prevent them from capping/get 150 points by killing the lord)

Also, sure you get into a sport because it is fun. But what’s the first thing that you do before getting into a sport? You watch them how its played. You become a spectator first. Unless you’re forced to do it, you base your judgment or decision to play that sport on how you think of it after watching it. Then you begin to play it. And you will find it fun. You may excel or turn pro. Or it may just be your past time.

People train for a sport. And it is stressing. It’s not fun. It’s work. It’s a routine. It’s boring to an extent. But what makes it fun for them – that they are the best in what they do, that all their work and training and sacrifices are paying off, that they get to be featured in forbes or time, earning $$$, being idolized, being talked about.

So there are levels of fun. I see that the your level of fun is fulfilling the required skill cap mainly. But the realists level of fun is delivering results and winning. Sure being a champion in rock paper scissors is fun, because you’re winning. I admit that IWAY experience was fun. And what made it even more fun is that it was not tasking on our part. Winning was fun and being the best at something was fun. The edrama was fun. The notoriety was fun. And up to now, the name recall still brings fun.

Anyway, I am not claiming to be the best player of the past and of the current and think what i think of the game will sway public opinion or should dictate a.net. I just say what i want to say as a spectator of both games, since i didn’t branch out beyond what our guild played nor is playing competitively in GW2. And my only defense of my current stance and the reason why i keep on pounding it all over and over again is the spectators bring a lot to the table when it comes to the whole e-sport thing. I am an integral part of the demographic. From spectating, one can make a blow by blow report, publish it in a reputable site. Careful spectating can see interesting things that happened or evaluate what made the other team to lose. And in this age, you can gauge the popularity of a game in twitch by, guess what, the number of spectators. Word of mouth is guerrilla advertising and it is effective in this day and age.

I guess its just me or this thing about popularity and fame carried over from my guild. We wanted to be seen everywhere. We got results. We’re popular and the guild still resonates up to now. And the build that we played required no calculus or quantum physics experience, even our guild name is MATH – you know that thing that only the Asians are good at.

i cannot believe how many people are puking on paul in this thread.

he is the only one who knows what he is talking about since you all started flaming him because he is pointing out which if your cornflakes are rotten.

professional athletes don’t give two kittens about the fans. any talk about the fans is just to keep the fans coming in. the athlete wants his paycheck. he wants to be paid well for playing well.

for that to happen, he is “coached” to play sensationally instead of simply giving it all he’s got. it is a performance. everything you watch is a performance.

the “performance” of GW2 pvp is … not nearly as exciting as a round of boxing.

@ the person who chastised paul for saying boxing is not complicated: the only complicated part about boxing is betting. if you stripped away the crowd and just let the two athletes slug it out, the fight would look much different.

boxing looks complex because betting makes it complex.

of course the athletes work hard and of course joe blow off the street isn’t going to be facing marywether any time soon. stop being kittens.

what makes boxing fun to watch is the chance to predict which of the boxers is going to win, to root for and cheer for that boxer, and share in the aura of that boxer’s success or failure.

the sportscasting transmits that aura through their commentary, using catch phrases that spark emotional responses.

yesterday’s commentary consisted of:

“and so and so is down? no he’s up! no he’s down! and stomped”
“they are doing this! no, wait, they aren’t!”
236 :: 73 = score; commentary “it seems that they are ahead by, like, twice, the points”
/facepalm

GW2 does NOT have that magic formula. it is fun to play, and has potential to be fun to watch. but currently, spectating is reasonably boring because there are no “strats”.

on foefire, you watch and wait for one team or the other to rush lord.
on khylo, you watch who gets to the treb first and who takes it down or not.
on niflhel, you watch to see who get’s the last shot on a monster kill for a free 25 points.

outside of this, there is little deviation in the game play, little opportunity for player based retribution and showcase. so and so can’t just sneak in to try and kill the lord alone and tip the scales. you have to wait til you have 350 points and then rush.

yippee, fun to watch.

gw2 is boring because every game is the same. not enough variables.

it has the potential to be very entertaining. the MiM lord kill is one example, if it weren’t for Grouch acting like a school boy (“omg i think they have him at 50%, i think they are killing the lord!” omg omg! this is exciting!" …. this is not professional commentary.) during the encounter.

no dynamism of inter-profession skills. you couldn’t pick out WHO was helping heal the boss because no one was, everyone was, all at once. all we get is red vs blue on a single objective, success or failure. whee fun. like reading the weather report.

which means … it is as predictable as looking outside.

nakoda, the spectator scene is still young. top players are still amassing. only improvement is in the horizons.

When the top teams are all jelled, strats will be developed. The first builds of Guild Wars 1 was 8 Warrior/Monks with mending. And look how funny basketball was like in the 50s.

horizon is pretty far away man

alcopaul.2156:

nakoda, the spectator scene is still young. top players are still amassing. only improvement is in the horizons.

When the top teams are all jelled, strats will be developed. The first builds of Guild Wars 1 was 8 Warrior/Monks with mending. And look how funny basketball looked like in the 50s.

true, but this isn’t the 50’s and sportscasting is not a new industry. neither is this the first mmo ever produced.

they don’t reinvent the rules of boxing every time a new generation of boxers is born. they may tweak officiating rules, and general industry guidelines.

games are different. every game tries to reinvent the wheel, even when they stick to something already done. the gaming industry is one of the most fickle to watch grow.

the only thing truly “new” about video games is the video part. humans have been playing games for tens of millenia, competitively for six or seven.

it is not the sport or the players who are amateur, it is the industry and the game that is amateur (in the scope of competitive games, video games are the little brother; obviously anet are software development professionals). the argument in this thread, that this thread keeps dancing around, is that GW2 feels regressive, and not progressive. This is what the GW1 vs GW2 debate is anchored on.

Players will always get better, players have been getting better at games for three decades. you, yourself, paul, complained about the lack of spectacle in this game. one thing that video games ought not lack is spectacle, given that they are not bound by the rules of physics.

It won’t matter how good the players get, the strats on these maps will not change because the maps are static. ie: foefire; you push for the lord, or you don’t. that’s all the map offers. you defend your lord, or you don’t. yes, this final push can be exciting, but it is completely predictable, and will play out the same way every time foefire is part of the rotation. a lord kill will never be an “upset” because you can see it coming.

the only thrill is for the players. tennis and golf are more entertaining to watch than GW2 right now.

i never claimed that this will stay the same forever, im commenting on the state of things as we speak.

Nakoda,

What you said about boxing is at best rhetorical. No boxing fan watches boxing for that reason man, get real. Boxing fans like boxing because of the art, not to bet on who is going to win. Anticipating who would win the match is certainly fun, but its not at all what makes it complex. That doesn’t even make sense.

In respect to what you said about commentary, say that to the people who watch ppv fights from streams where the commentary speaks a entirely different language. It doesn’t change the essence of how the fight is perceived.

Here is a starting place to learn the complexities of boxing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_styles_and_technique

Boxing fans liked to watch Roy Jones Jr for his ability to land stylistic blows on his opponents and for his ability to completely dominate the fights he was in (while he was in his prime). Fans like Mike Tyson because of his explosive one punch knock out power. Fans like Sugar Ray Robinson because of his ability to do EVERYTHING. I can go on and on, but none of it has to do with betting as you described. That is the reason why “you” would watch boxing.

Just drop this thing about boxing, and lets go back to the game.
Its really more interesting to read some suggestions on what would make a match much better to watch.
Its true that with the actual game modes there arent many surprising turns of the battle, even if not impossible, but its mostly unidirectional.
I’m curious to hear opionions on how to change this.

nakoda.4213:

it is not the sport or the players who are amateur, it is the industry and the game that is amateur (in the scope of competitive games, video games are the little brother; obviously anet are software development professionals). the argument in this thread, that this thread keeps dancing around, is that GW2 feels regressive, and not progressive. This is what the GW1 vs GW2 debate is anchored on.

Rhetorics. They use the word regression or dumbing down. but i think the appropriate word is simplification or making it easier to get into. Synonymous? yep. But certainly the connotations are in polar opposites.

GW1 was somewhat complex. I give them that. But it had theorycrafting and myriads of build possibilities. And one of the aim was to find the easiest build that can win matches.
This possibility was hampered and killed by skill balances favoring the balanced setup. Matches became mirror matches. People who don’t feel the build imposition sucked and quit. Skilled people who were fast learners excelled in it initially and quit (for their own reasons). Those who tried hard to master it spent 5-6 years without even knowing how good they are coz the competition was stale. And these people who spent long 5-6 years to “master” it are telling us it has high skill cap/complicated. Prolly their opinion because of the fact that they took long time to master it? And with this, i’d rather get a second 4 year bachelor’s degree coz earning it will just require me 4 years, compared to 5-6 years mastering GW1.

Sports should be fun and easy to get into, right?

Learning difficult things and doing it well is commendable sure. But this is a thinning out process. And in the game industry, the video game in exact, these games are a product. You buy it, you play it. The game publisher must weigh different factors. It must sell. But what is to be done to sell a lot? It must appeal to the masses. It must make the masses feel not excluded or have the opportunity to enjoy the game or to be competitive at least. The game should be fun to play (also fun to watch), let’s be straight. For the minority, high skill cap/complexity perhaps. But for the majority, easy to get into certainly. And for the one who is selling a product, it is a no-brainer decision to whom they want to cater into first. And prioritizing the majority is not detrimental wholly to building up a competitive scene because from the majority, top players out of their pool will arise. And if the scene becomes profitable and popular, professional gamers will come in to game and play and compete and prolly pwn the homegrowns, if they are indeed what their sponsorships and e-fame tell them to be.

the problem with video game development is that regression is not a thinning, or pruning. a piece of software is not a bonsai tree.

the trimming down of complexity in the mmo has been a gradual process since EQ.

GW2 is not the first MMO to try action based combat. Matrix Online, Champions Online, and Age of Conan are but three big ticket examples of action oriented mmo games.

@ aza: at the end of the day, the art of boxing makes money. it is a commercial enterprise, not an artistic expression of physical prowess. that is what gymnastics is for. a gymnist is a martial “artist” because they have utter mind/body control. boxing is the phsyical application of force drawn out over a series of stamina based attrition rounds.

fans can appreciate the strategy of wearing down an opponent, the mental game of focus, and the finesse of well targetted strikes, but boxing itself is not art. it’s commercial aspect will always take it away from this. the boxers are the art.

same goes for professional sports like football (both soccer and american), hockey, basketball, etc. yes, skilled players are skilled, focused, professional athletes.

artists, however, only show up in professional sports once in awhile. Mohammed Ali, Manny Paquin, Maryweather, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, Larry Byrd, Joe Montana, Doug Fluttie, Ken Griffy Jr., Tiger Woods, Jack Nichlaus, etc. Artists yes, but they are the minority of professional athletes.

Eventually they get filtered out by sales numbers.

The all encompassing board of directors to whom Anet ultimately answers determine how “artistic” the gameplay will be, and as along as there is a commercial drive behind it, the sports in this game will not be artful in any meaningful way.

(this is not saying that the game lacks entertainment).

people who watch sports for the “art” of it, much like the artistic athletes, are a smaller demographic than people who watch sports for the entertainment and the outcome. this is why professional sports can make so much money. this is why the industry is CALLED sports entertainment, and there is an infrastructure that supports over 10 dedicated sports statistic and reporting channels in north america alone. because it is entertaining.

that said, the evolution of sports entertainment came from the spectacle of watching artful play, which is what made the games entertaining to watch, because the SPECTATOR (as paul has pointed out numerous times) is what drives the sport to be in demand.

i have to say, again, just because you guys seem to ignore it and get stuck on rhetoric, that i am in no way suggesting that GW2 is incapable of being an entertaining sport (which is why i cited the example of the MiM lord kill) but that the game type generally stifles surprising plays and entertaining exchanges, and the focus on straight DPS vs Bunker play is limiting because there is little room for ingenuity and variety in build types, despite the wide variety of build types in the game.

Furthermore, my criticism of the casting is formal and not personal. The casting, as enthusiastic as it was, was lack luster and amateur. You can give them a buffer for being new to this all you want, but the fact is, casting is not a new profession, and is completely independent of the game itself, save for knowledge of the game. Casting of any time, any sort of vocal or visual presence, is an art.

Speaking, talking, reacting, criticizing, commentating, etc, are rhetorical arts that have been practiced since we started talking as a species, with traditions that (in the west) date back over 2500 years.

The point is that for the game to be entertaining to the spectator, the casters need to be able to use rhetoric to bolster what is going on on the screen. Spend a week watching a sportsnet channel, and really listen to the in game commentary (not the bull kitten bro stroking segments they have in between games).

Most of what they say is actually player history, interaction, and industry relationships. In goal oriented sports like hockey and soccer, you often dont even get commentary, because the game ought to speak for itself

“messier to bure, bure back to gretzky, GRETZKY TO MESSIER! off the post! REBOUDN! SWCORE@!!@! Once again Gretzky’s reflexes picked up the rebound, and capitalized on the opportunity. That’s what sets Gretzky apart, not just his finesse, but his awareness and ability to react to changes on the ice. What a play!”

GW2, currently, does not allow this sort of commentary because, despite the conquest mode, the game is still just a dps fest. albeit a fun one to play. but you cannot comment on artful play in a game the funnels skill through 5 buttons and an hp pool.

+1

nakoda.4213:

you cannot comment on artful play in a game the funnels skill through 5 buttons and an hp pool.

BUT… LoL did a kitten good job at this.

Weapon swap actually seems detracting in that sense though.
For anything but spike dps.

A complete replacement of skills you’re locked in for 10s, with weapon being so simple/different, just ends up with it feeling blocky.
At best mainhands should have been glamorous in depth weapons with offhands being swappable, it’d give a sense of change yet not a complete change in how you function.

no, i think paul is intelligent because his commentary shows a depth and understanding of issues which encompasses more than just gratifying his own cathartic involvement with the game.

some of which i disagree with.

i don’t care what you think of me.

edit: also, your inductive logic that applies my judgement of paul to everyone else is woefully misplaced.

nakoda.4213:

no, i think paul is intelligent because his commentary shows a depth and understanding of issues which encompasses more than just gratifying his own cathartic involvement with the game.

some of which i disagree with.

i don’t care what you think of me.

edit: also, your inductive logic that applies my judgement of paul to everyone else is woefully misplaced.

Why? You are the one who said it, not me.

do you even know what you are saying right now?

i said what? that paul is intelligent? yes i did.

i did not say that anyone whose opinion i agree with is intelligent, you did.

in fact, I distinctly called paul “one of” the most intelligent people (that is a plural word, in case you didn’t know) in this thread. not “the most intelligent person”.

it is your argument that by calling paul intelligent, i am doing the same thing as motoko by denigrating paul through saying that his posts are long winded and that i skip over them, spurring me to troll the forum by asking if anyone else does the same.

when, in fact, i responded by saying that i do not skip his posts, because i find them intelligent.

the rest is noise.

GankSinatra.2653:

Shukran.4851:

when u were a child and your parents asked you if u wanted to play some sports, did u choose by viewer or just by what would u have enojyed most?

I guess in your world people watch things they dont enjoy.

a_ in my world your answer is off topic. gj

b_ when i was a child, i though soccer (EU football) was boring. hence i refused to play it.

nakoda.4213:

Motoko.2875:

nakoda.4213:

no, because alcopaul is one of the most intelligent people in this thread.

Troll?

it always amuses me that the first defense people have to someone with a differing opinion than their own on an online forum is to call the “offender” a troll.

it shows how small minded you are.

P.S. asking people if they bother reading another person’s posts is trolling, technically.

It isn’t a defense. I really was under the assumption that you were trolling. It has already been agreed that paul’s input is really – Well it doesn’t contribute to the conversation. He doesn’t understand what we are talking about – and his argument points are essentially invalid for the majority of this conversation.

When another individual shows up and says “hey this input is brilliant and i agree!” – When it has already been decided that the said input is in fact not brilliant and lackluster – It leaves the question wondering if you were serious or not.

Aza.2105:

But you are doing the exact same thing that you are stating, by saying Paul is one the most intelligent person in the thread. Aka he is in agreement with your opinions. Which also means that you put yourself in the same category “the most intelligent person in this thread”.

I’m sure anyone who agrees with your opinions is intelligent.

This.

I’m sorry, I’d given up on this thread, but I just had to throw in another two cents.

Firstly, there is absolutely nobody here arguing against making GW2 a fun to watch game. Seriously, why would anybody be against that? It’s an obvious final step to expanding good competitive play to an audience outside of the playerbase, and yes, bringing in the monies.

Secondly, there is NOBODY in this thread arguing against making this game more accessible to new players. I stopped playing GW1 for a year, and I felt I couldn’t get back into the competitive scene afterwards (though, it was mostly because the expansions brought 342623 new skills). This is a glaring fault in the game, and definitely one of the big reasons GW1’s population dropped off.

But this does NOT mean we have to turn the game into CoD. This does NOT mean we have to dumb the game down to the point where mastery of a profession takes a week at most (yes, I completely agree with Diage on this one – hit the nail right on the head. Actually, his whole post hit so many nails on the head, he probably built a freaking mansion). Sure, some additional game modes on some additional maps will spice things up a bit (at least, for a little while), but I could write a book on why this just a temporary band-aid solution – it will NOT fix the the true reason why PvP feels stale. This problem lies within the terribly static, self-focused combat, which isn’t going to be fixed with more game modes. I’ve laid out, in more than one thread, how this game could drastically improve the depth of its teamplay using the same mechanics it currently functions on. I adamantly DO NOT believe it will overcomplicate the game, or even make it too confusing for uninformed viewers.

However, I am still 100% of the opinion that making the game an amazing spectator experience must not overshadow the need to actually make a good game. Despite what some may think, the majority of people don’t play video games (OR SPORTS, kitten!) with eternal fame, monies, and wominz in mind. I’ve played basketball my entire life, I’m even quite good at it, and I would be lying to you if I said I’ve never dreamed of being one of the best (for obvious reasons). But that’s not why I play. It’s a great game. I love everything about it. Hell, I hardly even watch the kitten sport. When I’m spectating, I’m mostly watching for things to improve my game (shockingly enough, that’s why I loved watching GW1 PvP too – to see how the pros were playing different roles). Still, it’s because of this that, when a professional player does make an incredible move, I get freaking pumped because an amazing play in an amazing game equals amazing respect.

The thing you don’t understand is that the most essential spectators for ANYTHING, be it sport or video game, are the playerbase. This is the foundation to BUILD ON and eventually make an incredible experience to watch and inspire for all. But do you really think the NBA would be paying its players millions to "put a ball through a hoop* (god I kind of hate you for that one, sorry) if the game of basketball wasn’t so kitten good? It’s exciting to watch because it’s good, kitten.

That’s why I don’t like this approach you guys (and most likely ANet) are taking. I don’t think you’re going to find the wild success THAT WE ALL WANT without first improving gameplay.

Woops, I think that was more than 2 cents.

+1 muramasa
there are 2 camps: those who think game should play like fps and those that think it should play like an rpg. gw1 was (probably) the best “rpg” pvp ever. gw2 is heading in the direction of fps. i think this is a real shame.

Motoko, you should back read.

The OP’s initial gist was mainly about the spectating aspect of the game or using it to improve the community. Then few People clamored that GW1 PvP is better gameplay wise. I said that GW2 is fun, better and more interesting to watch than GW1 PvP, which you become kitten. Then you attacked me for me being in MATH. Mind you, Me being in MATH didn’t or doesn’t limit me from watching quality games. And you still attacked me because I’m from MATH. Strange world indeed.

and thank you nakoda for appreciating my views. i was trying to sniff sarcasm but i just let it be. but i don’t consider myself intelligent. i drank beer, did drugs and failed math tests in college. but yeah thank you still. maybe the right word is compatibly sensible. or out of the box.

i respect those who share their opposing views and elaborating them, not those who resort to one liners and ad hominems.

anyway, that’s all i have to say because my opinion is limited only to the spectating aspects of the game and their related implications. i leave the gameplay and skill cap to others.

intelligence has nothing to do with education, only awareness.

im pretty sure video games in general have proven that.

On a side note, bickering should go down and constructive discussion should increase. Both sides are responsible.

Muramasma.1570:

On a side note, bickering should go down and constructive discussion should increase. Both sides are responsible.

Yup, we should.

I already said what I wanted to about gw2 pvp. The only thing I’d add is the overuse of particle effects.

From what I understand, the devs didn’t want to include casting bars because they wanted players to be conscious of the unique animations and respond to them. But there is a problem, the particle effects are so bright and numerous that it makes it quite hard to see what a target is doing.

Often times, a target is completely bright white because all of the flying particles and animations. So its impossible to interpret what they might be doing because of this.

It would be great if they gave players a slider to control the amount of particles drawn on the screen at once.

I really enjoyed your post Muramasa. I was starting to get pumped from the way you describe watching pros making incredible plays and the reasoning/emotions behind it.

I’ll buy you a drink if we ever meet lol.

Aza.2105:

Boxing isn’t complicated?

When people say this they mean to the new, or even just average viewer it doesn’t look that complex. All they see is one guy hitting another guy. This is what makes a spectator sport successful because the vast majority of your audience isn’t going to know a whole lot beyond the basics.

For everyone else:

On that same note, I agree that at the moment there hasn’t been a whole lot of team coordination involved in GW2 compared to what can be there. I think there’s room for a lot more coordination between teams, and that’s something I’m going to be pushing for at least my team to achieve in the future.

Remember this game is still relatively new, and it’s not like you can instantly figure out what to do & perfectly do it with people you’ve never played with before. Because of this, you’ll see people winning with easier methods (I’ve never played GW1 competitively, but something like IWAY if it was discovered at the launch of the game. For you WoW players, a similar situation would be melee cleaves dominating lower brackets (where GW2 teams are at atm), but getting beat by higher level coordination in higher brackets).

Basically what happened was infrastructure was not introduced to the game in a timely manner, major bugs (block bug, svanir bug) were not fixed in a timely manner, and there was no real rewards for being at the top. Thus the population started to drift away from the game. This caused teams to break up and reform with new members pretty frequently, which means most teams never stuck together for the long term.

Then when these new teams would form and the ones that would survive would be the ones that won in the short term. The teams that wanted to build chemistry between each other, and actual coordination would just get frustrated by teams that played to win in the short term by playing easier builds/compositions. A great example of this would be the rise of triple cantrips elementalists, as many people started rerolling and could be effective at a low-medium level by essentially spamming cooldowns. Would this be as effective against teams that were highly coordinated? We don’t know because there are no teams like this, for the reasons stated above.

To say that there is little to no coordination involved in this game, and that all you do is spam buttons is a complete fallacy and shows that you have not played this game competitively at a high level. I invite you to make a team and enter upcoming tournaments. If this game takes little to no skill and coordination, then you should be able to “master” it relatively quickly and beat us 50% of the time, right?

Is this game improving? Yes. It’s rebounding with spectator and customs. New teams are starting to form, and it’s going to be about what teams are here for the short term, and what teams are here for the long term. The difficulty with high-tier coordination is that if no one does it, then no one needs to. But once one team is very dominate with coordination, then everyone needs to adapt to that. It’s just a matter of time.

So for all of you that keep bashing this game saying it’s kitten, it’s not going anywhere, why don’t you actually help out the scene by making a team and showing everyone what great skill and teamplay you can bring with your experience in other games, be it WoW, GW1, counter-strike, or whatever. If you don’t believe high-level teamplay/coordination can exist in this game, then please actually read my post and you will understand why you don’t see it as much as you should.

Thanks.

Follidus.8027:

So for all of you that keep bashing this game saying it’s kitten, it’s not going anywhere, why don’t you actually help out the scene by making a team and showing everyone what great skill and teamplay you can bring with your experience in other games, be it WoW, GW1, counter-strike, or whatever. If you don’t believe high-level teamplay/coordination can exist in this game, then please actually read my post and you will understand why you don’t see it as much as you should.

Thanks.

Because the PvP is boring and stale? Just because I excel in other games does not mean I have any intention of punishing myself with a boring game to prove to a diminishing player base that I or a team I am with has a high level of skill.

Follidus.8027:

If you don’t believe high-level teamplay/coordination can exist in this game, then please actually read my post and you will understand why you don’t see it as much as you should.

Thanks.

The question isn’t “can it exist?” but “is there enough? (for pugs and high level play)”

Follidus.8027:

Aza.2105:

Boxing isn’t complicated?

When people say this they mean to the new, or even just average viewer it doesn’t look that complex. All they see is one guy hitting another guy. This is what makes a spectator sport successful because the vast majority of your audience isn’t going to know a whole lot beyond the basics.

you said it better than i tried to, this is what i was getting at.

@Follidus

I feel like I’m repeating myself over and over again (it would help if you’d read more of the thread).

There is coordination within the team particularly in the context of the conquest game mode. Teams that can control the field well (specifically, the points/minor objectives) are the most successful in high end tPvP. There is skill involved in this, and not every team can do it. There certainly were players / teams better than I in this aspect.

Furthermore, I’ll be the first to admit that a team full of players running around, using their rotation off cooldown will be less successful than a team coordinated to cap points. Hell, I would even say a team running around spamming their skills would likely lose to a coordinated team in a death match (though you probably wouldn’t really be able to tell the difference between the two teams).

But seriously, beyond mastery of the whole conquest thing, you really think this game gets much deeper? Support roles are laughable, and building your team for “good composition” really means having the right amount of bunkers, cannons, and roamers. Real teamplay, particularly in combat, is nonexistent or coincidental (by this I mean, your condition removal may also remove your teamate’s condition, but that’s not why you used it).

And no, I won’t be joining any up-coming tournaments, and why would you expect us to? We’re listing reasons why we find the game isn’t worth playing. Why would any of us feel the drive to master shallow gameplay?

I’m going to go ahead and remind you again to read through a thread before posting.

@Aza

I agree with the particle effect thing, obviously. Though I’m not sure removing the cast bar was the greatest idea, the fact that it’s nigh impossible to pick out many skill animations makes it just pointless.

It seems ANet had a bunch of neat little ideas that, while individually they sounded nice, haphazardly blended together they end up detrimental.

@Motoko

It’s a deal

Also, I really don’t think boxing is a good comparison to what we are talking about in the slightest. Boxing is a wildly popular spectator sport for many, many reasons, and the majority of these reasons have nothing to do with GW2 PvP. It’s not even a team sport for kitten sake.

edit: I feel the need to elaborate a little. Boxing, and in the same sense MMA and the like, appeal to a lot of things that an audience will pick up on without knowledge of the sport. For instance, the primal instinct of fighting is an inherent part of every human being, it’s natural that a sport based on (skillfully) beating the tar out of someone is going to appeal to an extremely wide audience.

Muramasma.1570:

@Follidus

I feel like I’m repeating myself over and over again (it would help if you’d read more of the thread).

There is coordination within the team particularly in the context of the conquest game mode. Teams that can control the field well (specifically, the points/minor objectives) are the most successful in high end tPvP. There is skill involved in this, and not every team can do it. There certainly were players / teams better than I in this aspect.

Furthermore, I’ll be the first to admit that a team full of players running around, using their rotation off cooldown will be less successful than a team coordinated to cap points. Hell, I would even say a team running around spamming their skills would likely lose to a coordinated team in a death match (though you probably wouldn’t really be able to tell the difference between the two teams).

But seriously, beyond mastery of the whole conquest thing, you really think this game gets much deeper? Support roles are laughable, and building your team for “good composition” really means having the right amount of bunkers, cannons, and roamers. Real teamplay, particularly in combat, is nonexistent or coincidental (by this I mean, your condition removal may also remove your teamate’s condition, but that’s not why you used it).

And no, I won’t be joining any up-coming tournaments, and why would you expect us to? We’re listing reasons why we find the game isn’t worth playing. Why would any of us feel the drive to master shallow gameplay?

I’m going to go ahead and remind you again to read through a thread before posting.

@Aza

I agree with the particle effect thing, obviously. Though I’m not sure removing the cast bar was the greatest idea, the fact that it’s nigh impossible to pick out many skill animations makes it just pointless.

It seems ANet had a bunch of neat little ideas that, while individually they sounded nice, haphazardly blended together they end up detrimental.

@Motoko

It’s a deal

If you don’t enjoy the game, don’t play it! Simple!

The competitive scene is developing, the game will get more complex as the meta and the teams find new ways to improve themselves. There is already a bunch of ways teams support each other through peels, heals, stability, c/c , cleaving areas to zone, coordinating blinds, stealth, interrupts, manual rez, skill rez, portal plays and more. While someone can’t stand back and heal your team repeatedly, the ability to selectively heal your team-mates is available and can make the difference in fights. The game is getting better and it will get more exciting as the difference in team skill closes. We saw a tournament last week with multiple 2-0 games in the finals and semi-finals. This week we say 2 last second plays that decided games and a really really close series with TP and TCG.

Shananigans.8412:

If you don’t enjoy the game, don’t play it! Simple!

The competitive scene is developing, the game will get more complex as the meta and the teams find new ways to improve themselves. There is already a bunch of ways teams support each other through peels, heals, stability, c/c , cleaving areas to zone, coordinating blinds, stealth, interrupts, manual rez, skill rez, portal plays and more. While someone can’t stand back and heal your team repeatedly, the ability to selectively heal your team-mates is available and can make the difference in fights. The game is getting better and it will get more exciting as the difference in team skill closes. We saw a tournament last week with multiple 2-0 games in the finals and semi-finals. This week we say 2 last second plays that decided games and a really really close series with TP and TCG.

I don’t play anymore. But Guild Wars is a title that I’ll forever hold dear, and I’ve a right to offer criticisms and suggestions from my perspective. The typical “don’t like it, gtfo” mentality is poison.

As for the rest of you post, I am well aware of the majority of tactics and mechanics you’ve listed, and I’ve even utilized (or at least attempted to) a good bit of them with team play in mind. I’ve developed my opinion that GW2 PvP lacks depth with these kind of things in mind. A lot of it is because I think these sorts of mechanics (at least some of those you’ve mentioned, that is) play too small of a role, but I won’t ramble about that again.

I doubt we’ll see things get much more complex with the current state of the game. A new game mode may add some complexity, but it’s map based and really doesn’t solve as much as one would hope.

garethh.3518:

Follidus.8027:

If you don’t believe high-level teamplay/coordination can exist in this game, then please actually read my post and you will understand why you don’t see it as much as you should.

Thanks.

The question isn’t “can it exist?” but “is there enough? (for pugs and high level play)”

We don’t know because the boundaries haven’t been pushed yet. This is still a relatively new game, and these types of things take time.

Muramasma.1570:

Furthermore, I’ll be the first to admit that a team full of players running around, using their rotation off cooldown will be less successful than a team coordinated to cap points. Hell, I would even say a team running around spamming their skills would likely lose to a coordinated team in a death match (though you probably wouldn’t really be able to tell the difference between the two teams).

Yes, but at the moment you don’t see a lot of coordinated teams because most teams haven’t been around for that long to build the synergy required to pull things off. Some try, lose, get frustrated, and break up. So when most of you are saying “GW2 is boring, spammy, and requires no skill” it’s just saying to me “I never played with a team in GW2 that coordinated very well with each other”

Muramasma.1570:

But seriously, beyond mastery of the whole conquest thing, you really think this game gets much deeper? Support roles are laughable, and building your team for “good composition” really means having the right amount of bunkers, cannons, and roamers.

Yes I think this game gets much deeper. The biggest example to me are things that people think are just “not viable.” Look at warriors and necromancers. These classes depend on your team to support you to succeed, however that level of play has not reached the GW2 population yet, so people think these classes are horrible.

Then you look at classes like elementalists, who can very much survive on their own playing any role in the game. They’re relatively easy to play at low-middle level, and that’s why you see so many of them.

Muramasma.1570:

Real teamplay, particularly in combat, is nonexistent or coincidental (by this I mean, your condition removal may also remove your teamate’s condition, but that’s not why you used it).

Also, what are you talking about by this? Again, this just shows your lack of experience at high levels of play in this game. For example, a support/bunker guardian is so important in team fights because of condition removal on people like mesmers who don’t bring self condition removal. Saying things like “this is not why you used it” is just a fallacy. It’s a choice. You can use it mainly for you, or you can use it mainly for your allies. Again, it just shows your lack of experience at high level play, and further proves my point of what the level of play this game can achieve.

Muramasma.1570:

And no, I won’t be joining any up-coming tournaments, and why would you expect us to? We’re listing reasons why we find the game isn’t worth playing. Why would any of us feel the drive to master shallow gameplay?

Because if you want to prove your point by saying this gameplay is shallow, then you should be able to beat everyone that plays it. That would speak more words than any forum post you can make. However, when you don’t even play the game competitively and just bash it a lot less people are going to listen to you, and you’re just dividing up the community.

I’m assuming that you’re here because you want the game to succeed (why else would you be here?). If you want to have influence, and get players and developers on your side, then you need to be more than just another voice that potentially has no credibility.

Put it in this perspective: If I came into GW1 and said the game was terrible with no skill involved while never being anywhere near the top, how many of you would take me seriously? I could list out a million things that I think are improvements, but who would really listen? It’s the same situation here, in reverse.

I’m not saying this game is perfect, and I’m not saying it can’t use improvements. But I am saying it’s a lot better than a lot of you make it out to be.

May I ask you Muramasma.1570 what guild/guilds you were apart of during prophecies/factions?

Follidus.8027:

Put it in this perspective: If I came into GW1 and said the game was terrible with no skill involved while never being anywhere near the top, how many of you would take me seriously? I could list out a million things that I think are improvements, but who would really listen? It’s the same situation here, in reverse.

Here is the problem with your argument:

GW1 had ways to show success. You had TONS of competition. You had ladders to get paired randomly with opponents and you had tournaments to play in and prepare matches against a known opponent.

You can look at players that were successful at high-end GW1 PvP (for the most part) and take them seriously. (I am included in this group whether you like it or not)

In GW2 there is no way to measure that success. A ladder? 3rd party tournaments? TP? MiM? Against what competition? A mass exodus of players and competition occurred long ago. Within months of the game’s release. These players aren’t fighting the best that could be and they aren’t the best that has been.

You have minority of players that are still here because they enjoy the FPS style of play. Those same players keep telling the original fanbase to kitten off. And then you have the majority of players who aren’t happy, but are more than happy to offer suggestions that would help ANET keep afloat it’s sinking ship.

So the situation isn’t reverse at all.
You have a bunch of players with an equal amount of lack of credibility and a lot of bias. You have a company that doesn’t even know what it wants – let alone makes it seem like they don’t want to deal with it anymore.

The difference is the original fanbase was part of something special and something that was incredible. The small player base that exists now never experienced that.

If Guild Wars 1 wasn’t for you, Guild Wars 2 shouldn’t have been. Sadly that isn’t the case.

@Follidus

I do actually agree with a few things you’ve posted, even if you’re overall viewpoint opposes mine.

I think this game does have great potential for the cooperative team play I and others are asking for, but I don’t think ANet has given enough to make it possible. You think that it may evolve as time goes on, which is something I’d very much like to believe, but I really don’t think we’re going to see it. As I’ve been repeatedly saying, group support roles are much too weak compared to DPS or bunker roles (depending on the profession). I like what you’ve said about warriors and necromancers, and I’d love to see a group oriented meta utilizing professions that excel in such environments, I just don’t think the means for it are viable enough. It would be too * difficult,* to the point of impracticality. Which is essentially what needs fixed. I think that’s where we mostly differ in opinion. ANet needs to do some tweaking and we could have solid gameplay with the mechanics already in place!

Also, the condition removal thing was admittedly kind of rash. I play a guardian myself (though I’m not a fan of bunkering), and the condition removal is nothing short of epic. It would be nice if the UI for my teammates’ healthbars wasn’t so terrible, so I could actively see and remove conditions more precisely, but I digress.

I’m going to go ahead and say that you make a very nice point with that last bit – to the point that it’s something I’ll definitely consider when time allows it. A lot of us just feel a bit discouraged as our voice has been completely ignored, even back when we were diligently playing. On the other hand though, I’m not going to be instantly uber and beat everyone I play just because I think the game play is shallow; now you’re the one being hasty. You should read Diage’s post on this page, he spells out the reason for this better than I want to try to right now.

It sounds like you have a pretty good grasp at what this game could be, and I’m willing to wager you have a deeper understanding of the current state of “high end” tPvP. You’re opinion is informed and even persuasive, I’m more than willing to admit. On the same note, I’d urge you to consider the suggestions in this thread (and others), and not pass them off as mere game bashing. Most of us aren’t just reminiscing in a past game we’ve enjoyed, we’re trying to improve certain areas we’ve found to be lacking based on past our experiences.

Draygo.9473:

May I ask you Muramasma.1570 what guild/guilds you were apart of during prophecies/factions?

The only one I could imagine still being remembered was [renO]. I didn’t run with them for the majority of my time in the game, but I did enjoy silver trimming while the best guilds that GW1 ever saw were at large.

I actually preferred HA to GvG though, and I spent most of my time in guilds centered around it. I’m at a loss for recalling any with lasting notority, however. I also really, really liked GvG that wasn’t terribly high ranked (maybe around the ~300-500 level) because you could get away with trying a lot of crazy things.

@Motoko

I find myself missing GW1’s methods for matchmaking more and more. I mean, HA’s system was legendary! It was brilliant! It’s very nature created e-celebrities (I mean, everyone knew who was consistently holding the halls). Add that to the incredible guild ladder that was far ahead of its time, and it’s flabbergasting that GW2’s matchmaking is so… meh.