Guild Wars 2

How many people bought the game just for pvp? GW1 was famous for its pvp, not its pve, right? So, with the lack features we have, they’ve already made alot of money off the pvpers for what seems to be a very small investment/cost of goods. (The cost of a few salaries and 1 mode.)

It appears they took all the profit they made from the pvpers buying the game and just spent it on the pve side because they are trying to compete with WoW and other MMOs. The combat engine alone was enough to hook pvpers, and there is much less competition in that realm. Unfortunately, they can’t (or won’t) balance pvp properly OR add in another game mode.

Leaderboards, extra skins, and more incentives/rewards won’t do much to bring more money in (or our community back) when the vast majority of players feel like the (pvp) game is broken or boring. To me this game is a love/hate relationship: I like it so much that I’m extremely frustrated with the way it’s being handled. Tbh, I really like the PvE, but it just makes me wanna PvP that much more, and every time I end up trying again only to get disappointed over and over.

Given that I already feel like the PvP community has been bilked, there is no way I’m paying for anything else in this game, even custom arenas (which really just appear to be conquest with a few negligible sliders.) Ofc there are more things they could add to make the experience better (solo ladder, real tourneys), but the only features that I feel could turn PvP around at this point are things they should have already gotten a better handle on: proper balancing and more modes.

Balance is fine for this MMO in this stage of its life. There is nothing at all that’s game breaking or even remotely so.

I agree with the balancing and more modes. For the addition of pvp modes, I guess it just takes time, I don’t mind playing conquest for now.

Now for the balancing part, I’m pretty sure it’s not too easy for devs to properly fix it because of a few reasons. Players often complain way too many times for their own mistakes in not knowing how to play so they come to the forums with pure raging fury putting constant hate posts and eventually the devs will just listen and nerf the kitten off of a certain class. I understand the backstab thieves at the beginning of the game was quite an “OP” damage dealer (OP in quotes because it has been thrown around way too many times without proper knowledge of how to utilize that term) but they fixed the damage somewhat, great, I guess. Anyways, look at the engineers, rangers, or maybe the necromancer’s trait lines. Not the best state in the game.

I’m not saying the classes are inferior and underpowered at all, rather they took quite a few hits from nerf bombs. I’m also not saying that balancing will never be accomplished in this game but just there’s so much stuff going on, what with the QQers or just bad states of some of the classes.

I love both PvE and PvP and know how you feel to be disappointed in pvp. You could just try your best to deal with it for the moment and maybe figure out your class to the best of your ability. Not saying that you’re not good with your class or anything such.

P.S. please don’t flame me for not knowing my stuff.

I disagree entirely.

This game is actually relatively well balanced. That is not to say that there are obvious imbalances between classes, there are but for a game that is less than a year old it’s shocking how even it feels.

We don’t really need more game modes, they’d be nice but it’s not going to tip the scales towards esports, in fact less is usually more for esports. Why do most esports tend to gravitate towards a few select maps with only one mode? Because it’s easier to achieve the appearance of balance with less variables. More modes can be fun but won’t help the game be any more competitive.

We need structures around the current game that makes it more fun and rewarding to compete. Leaderboards are a step in the right direction adding incentive to compete at a high level.

Spectator mode would be a good next step. There’s nothing that can accelerate a esport more than allowing others to easily add commentary to high level matches and for viewers become emotionally invested in teams.

Does the game need balance? Sure, tweaks here and there will be needed but games don’t magically become esports because they are well balanced. They become esports because they are become accessible (Through casters) and people become emotionally invested in high level players.

Honestly, I could care less about e-sports. (No disrespect to those that like it). I just want the game to be fun. To me, better balance means not fighting tons of a.i. against certain classes, having enough cleanses for the massive amounts of conditions you can get inundated with, 1 class being able to keep up with another’s spam, 1 class not getting hopelessly kited around all day vs another, ect…

So honestly, if it’s not fundamental things like balance and being boxed into a mode that relies on having 4 other people on your team making all the right choices to win, why did so many people leave? Was it because they wanted a gear grind? Was it all because there was no spectator mode? Are they coming back now for the leaderboards?

Personally, I think we need those monthly tournies to become a real thing and while they are at it, JADE QUARRY REMASTERED PLOX!!!

But seriously, I’ve really been thinking about how Jade Quarry would work in GW2 and I can see a good mix of all professions playing a large role in defending and assaulting. Of course, Eles and Rangers would be amazing at running the wood needed to fix the doors but thieves and Mesmers should be able to deal with them.

I really and truly think. Jade Quarry could make a comeback.

Agreed. Though I am not sure how much can be turned around with Gw2. More about lessons to be learned for a new title. What I think most people enjoy can be summed up to the combat engine. Of course some would say they enjoy many of the other aspects, but that’s probably why they stick around. To cater to the players that left would be to step on the toes of many that stayed. To me that shows a need for a new title. The people who enjoy this game seem to be of the minority with the numbers we have seen other games have. Personally I think it is more than reasonable for a new title with a similar combat system as Gw2 to beat out League as an e-sports title but I don’t think that game would look much like Gw2.

There is just a number of systems at the core of Gw2 which I think limits what it can become. Even if many of players current demands are met there would still be much room to improve on. Then there is the whole issue of meeting those demands in the first place. Some of the issues I see are:

Monetization – Are there any aesthetics being sold for the PvP community? They have 5 races (Asura >:) making the development of aesthetics less cost effective. Aesthetics also end up being the only method of character progression so it competes with the gem store.

Game mode – Is conquest the best choice? I think unanimously that is a no. How reasonable is it to switch game modes now when it has a direct impact on balance? It has already been shown how elite skills limit what can be done, though I think how elite skills were handled on their own is another issue. A game mode I have in mind that might give league a run for its money isn’t something that can just be added.

Downed state – Something like 40% of the remaining players don’t like the downstate? Yikes. This is a really a poor option to add more team interaction compared to alternatives. Honestly not something most of us would have thought until seeing it, but now we know.

Balance – Maybe this is just me, but the games balance seems quite far from the ideal. Roughly speaking I believe a shout warrior is the closest thing to ideal. Enough sustain the fight doesn’t end without plays being made. Somewhat limited active defense so it has to be well used. The ability to turn a fight around in short order if things are executed well. Animations that are well defined and allow counterplay. Too bad that’s not even close to how the game plays out. Maybe this can be achieved but that’s pretty far off.

Trait system – I actually find this more limiting in diversity than not. Some things just aren’t useful without the associated traits but those traits aren’t always accessible. Too much of a weapons use depends on traits where it is either useless or too strong. Traits should aim to instead augment things that are inherent, rather than also a variable.

Hidden character stats – Knowing what your opponent has available is very important. Well… At least if that played more into a players gameplan to approach a fight. Too many small things that aren’t normative that can greatly impact a fight. And it is mostly decided outside an opponents knowledge.

Condition damage – I disagree with the existence of a stat to progress armor ignoring damage. Too much rock-paper-scissors. Armor ignoring damage should exist but shouldn’t be on such an extreme slider.

The closest thing to game breaking is eles on spirit watch.

It’s fine that you don’t care about esports, it really is, but it’s what’ll drive people back to playing PVP. If you like it or not it’s a huge promotional tool that Anet should use to create a draw for PVP.

From more competition brings more demand for balance and more resources that can be allocated to that balance.

Master Charles.7093:

So honestly, if it’s not fundamental things like balance and being boxed into a mode that relies on having 4 other people on your team making all the right choices to win, why did so many people leave? Was it because they wanted a gear grind? Was it all because there was no spectator mode? Are they coming back now for the leaderboards?

It’s a fair question, and sure to be full of a lot of opinions, mostly you can chalk it up to payoff from the hype that PVP was given, but that’s vague and not very useful.

So what does that support mean? More modes? Lets look at some of the very competitive games out there right now (Taken from the top games streaming on Twitch):

LoL – One competitive game mode, one general map with few variations.
WoW – While it’s expanded quite a bit since it became an esport it started with one mode (death match) and only a handful of maps.
Starcraft 2 – Really only one competitive game mode (Generally 1v1) on a few maps. If you recall the original SC competitive matches were played on around 5ish maps.
CS – Not really familiar with competitive CS so I won’t comment.
DOTA 2 – One competitive game mode one map.

GW2 – One game mode, handful of maps.

Most of these games do have other modes but they usually aren’t considered competitive and are not taken all that seriously.

More modes might bring a few more casual players to the PVP side but it won’t drive the game to be taken seriously.

I have a lot more to say on this but I’m going to eat now so I’m going to stop for now.

I appreciate the in-depth responses here. I really don’t want to just complain about the game, but rather make clear what has held it back thus far (from being more retentive, from becoming an esport, ect…), and also what can be done about it.

@ Fourth – you’ve raised alot of good points:

On monetization: This is primarily what made me start the thread. Many people feel pvp just ain’t money-makin enough, so it gets no love, and thus want to offer ideas on how to charge us more for the game. I’m worried that Anet will focus on things like new skins, rentable servers, and so on, which I think won’t change much in production assets or the overall population.

On Gamemode: It’s too bad things have been balanced around conquest because that is what has given rise to bunkers, and thus burst. I do, however, think that some additional modes could be more accessible to the mainstream audience (those without 4 friends trying to run only the most elite builds.) I mostly just want a fair fight, and I think alot of people get tired of getting outnumbered and destroyed as a defacto strategy. Downed states merely add to the fact that 1v2 isn’t really feasible against equally competent players, and while I don’t think 1v2 should really be possible, it happens way too often in conquest.

On balance: I’m not just concerned with class vs class balance, but also the balance of healing abilities, mobility, condition stacking, viable builds, and weapon viability. I main a shout warrior, (and he is by no means superior or even competent against the majority of cheese builds out there,) but I won’t change that build because it’s simply fun for me to be able to survive redonk burst and support my team while doing it. Still, I can defeat all but the most experienced, extreme burst warriors, and my chances are even better now that haste has been toned down. Regardless, people talk to me like I’m some kind of idiot for not running with a gs, and that’s a warrior’s weapon balance issue.

On traits: can’t say it any better. I’d also love to see the 5, 15, and 25 point traits with selectable options. I think that could do alot for diversity.

On conditions: Condition builds feel so gimmicky and out of control. I bring a cleanse (and stun break) with every class, but there is never enough to keep it under control, leading me to believe it’s a superior multiplier. (Good point about armor-bypass). It’s just too spammy and uncounterable. Far too often I’m seeing 10-15k bleeding and burning as the greatest damage in the breakdowns.

@Pandabro: I’m under no illusion that Anet gives a flip about what I think. I would, however, speculate that the game needs to take off before it becomes an esport, not become an esport before it takes off.

To me, comparing 2-D RTS games to this one is like apples and oranges. Those games were built around pvp, but this one has many more facets (pve being the greatest.) People play pvp to fight each other, not stand in circles, pick up buffs, kill npcs, run orbs, or fire trebs, yet that’s what it’s all about, and personally it’s takes alot away from the true spirit of competition: standing and fighting fair, with no advantages. I think those things may be good for highly competitive, organized teams that desire a deeper strategy, but they distract those that just seek true battle. As far as WOW is concerned, I heard their deathmatch didn’t do so well at an esport expo, and that’s why GW is afraid to even give it as a sidedish now: too bad. (Guess we’re stuck with 5man voip elitism or nothing.) That’s just hear-say though, and I really don’t know or care about WoW, but I do respect your opinion and appreciate your response.

I would like to put a few positive things at the end of this wall of text:
1: The game is still worth my $60 (I just think they could make alot more off solid pvp)
2: I’m still very pleased they (finally) ditched the red/blue armor
3: I think not having a gear-grind is the only way to go, and commend this