Guild Wars 2

So today, 1/10/13, PZ decided to say #kittentherules and play double ranger, double elementalist, and an offensive guardian in the NA paid scene to see if it was possible to disregard the rules of the meta and play a non-standard comp against a top 3 team. Many people think that there is a standard meta that the game forces a set composition based on the fact that top teams are running them, but the matter of the fact is that GOOD players haven’t tried experimenting with original tactics/compositions (at least in the NA scene)

I hope the Team Paradigm players does not take offense to this video being highlighted off my stream to help the community see the fact that exploration can result in success, because I both respect them and love them all as players and friends.

Either way, here they are..
http://www.twitch.tv/matchlesspowerr/c/1828863
http://www.twitch.tv/matchlesspowerr/c/1828942

We did however lose a map one match, but there were a ridiculous amount of things that went wrong. Granted, could have always gone both ways. Here that is: http://www.twitch.tv/matchlesspowerr/c/1828950 Tornado choice was a leading factor in the loss :/ meh whatever

I really liked what you guys did today. I really liked that you streamed it, because I didn’t even realize you were streaming today!

I hope these vods show people that you can win without a bunker guardian, and without a mesmer. imo trends are started, and then other people copy them because it’s easy. When everyone copies a trend then it becomes “required.”

That lineup today was very scary!

the videos in the first and third link are slow mo and have no audio

Breakin.2409:

the videos in the first and third link are slow mo and have no audio

Vids are fine for me.

@Powerr thank you so much for posting some footage of good players going outside of the current accepted meta.

Thank you for sharing this.

But if you really want to help the community you should also post the builds used and the overall basic strategy because inexperienced players will not be able to infer those easily.

Azadoras.2790:

Thank you for sharing this.

But if you really want to help the community you should also post the builds used and the overall basic strategy because inexperienced players will not be able to infer those easily.

Sign!

Thanks a lot – but I would really help to get at least some kind of Build-Info. Because you do break the rules with classes here – but as Elementalist and Ranger can be run pretty bunker aswell it would be great to see if you stuck to meta-lineup in terms of use for team or really broke all “rules” and ran “random”.

Thanks a lot though!

Powerr.3649:

So today, 1/10/13, PZ decided to say #kittentherules and play double ranger, double elementalist, and an offensive guardian in the NA paid scene to see if it was possible to disregard the rules of the meta and play a non-standard comp against a top 3 team. Many people think that there is a standard meta that the game forces a set composition based on the fact that top teams are running them, but the matter of the fact is that GOOD players haven’t tried experimenting with original tactics/compositions (at least in the NA scene)

I hope the Team Paradigm players does not take offense to this video being highlighted off my stream to help the community see the fact that exploration can result in success, because I both respect them and love them all as players and friends.

Either way, here they are..
http://www.twitch.tv/matchlesspowerr/c/1828863
http://www.twitch.tv/matchlesspowerr/c/1828942

We did however lose a map one match, but there were a ridiculous amount of things that went wrong. Granted, could have always gone both ways. Here that is: http://www.twitch.tv/matchlesspowerr/c/1828950 Tornado choice was a leading factor in the loss :/ meh whatever

i would not consider using some off the wall build for a short period of time to mean it is successful.

1. Teams you are playing are seeing this setup for first time and dont have a chance to develop a gameplan against you.

2. most games are won/lost by strategy/movement not classes. i.e. your team could probably run 5 of one class or 3 engis and 2 necros and still beat some top teams.

It’s sort of like football there are lots of “gimmick” offenses out there that work for a few games. Then once the rest of the league gets a chance to watch more film, prepare better, etc. that gimmick goes away.

TLDR – if you are still running this setup a week from now and rolling top teams regularly i’d consider it a success.

Follidus.8027:

I really liked what you guys did today. I really liked that you streamed it, because I didn’t even realize you were streaming today!

I hope these vods show people that you can win without a bunker guardian, and without a mesmer. imo trends are started, and then other people copy them because it’s easy. When everyone copies a trend then it becomes “required.”

That lineup today was very scary!

Mesmer make things easier, period. You can be successful with other builds but it requires more work. This is fact. Had they had simply used a portal/TW mesmer and swapped one person out they would have won easier/faster.

Thank you and here are the builds:

Powerr’s S/D Spec
Powerr’s Hybrid D/D
Java’s Tanky Trap Ranger
Kaypud Build
Vyndetta’s build is a secret to all man-kind, you will never figure out the masterminds secrets!

We hope to go large with teampz.com having it act as the meta guide site for guild wars 2. We want top players, any player really, posting their builds and guides much like TSM does with solomid.net

Help it get popular :P

Sprawl.3891:

Follidus.8027:

I really liked what you guys did today. I really liked that you streamed it, because I didn’t even realize you were streaming today!

I hope these vods show people that you can win without a bunker guardian, and without a mesmer. imo trends are started, and then other people copy them because it’s easy. When everyone copies a trend then it becomes “required.”

That lineup today was very scary!

Mesmer make things easier, period. You can be successful with other builds but it requires more work. This is fact. Had they had simply used a portal/TW mesmer and swapped one person out they would have won easier/faster.

So you’re suggesting TP were beat before the match even started? Sorry I disagree. Mesmer may be familiar and therefore easier in that sense but having a specific class in your group does not win the day. Having good players and great teamwork does. Did you hear their communication? Maybe they put in a little more effort because the classes being played weren’t the ones they were most familiar with, but that’s the only reason.

Wise.8025:

Sprawl.3891:

Follidus.8027:

I really liked what you guys did today. I really liked that you streamed it, because I didn’t even realize you were streaming today!

I hope these vods show people that you can win without a bunker guardian, and without a mesmer. imo trends are started, and then other people copy them because it’s easy. When everyone copies a trend then it becomes “required.”

That lineup today was very scary!

Mesmer make things easier, period. You can be successful with other builds but it requires more work. This is fact. Had they had simply used a portal/TW mesmer and swapped one person out they would have won easier/faster.

So you’re suggesting TP were beat before the match even started? Sorry I disagree. Mesmer may be familiar and therefore easier in that sense but having a specific class in your group does not win the day. Having good players and great teamwork does. Did you hear their communication? Maybe they put in a little more effort because the classes being played weren’t the ones they were most familiar with, but that’s the only reason.

no what im saying is with a portal mesmer you can move multiple people between points instantly which makes any match easier than without one.

I’m not sure I agree with that. With the portal on a longer cooldown now, you can bait its use, and then if you are slack on mobility, you might find yourself in a bad position.

When we were playing at launch and before portal caught on completely, we relied on mobile roamers and off-point positioning for quick collapses. Granted, the competition was easier then because there were no paids and the only way to play good teams was to coordinate queues, but better mobility, scouting to call quicker rotates, and initial positioning compensated for the lack of a portal. Maybe the portal is optimal, but I wouldn’t be so quick to judge.

(My knowledge is dated though, and I have almost no QP, so my opinion is irrelevant.)

Sprawl.3891:

i would not consider using some off the wall build for a short period of time to mean it is successful.

1. Teams you are playing are seeing this setup for first time and dont have a chance to develop a gameplan against you.

2. most games are won/lost by strategy/movement not classes. i.e. your team could probably run 5 of one class or 3 engis and 2 necros and still beat some top teams.

1. The whole point of this thread and those videos is to prove that some pre-determined class comps defined by the meta do not automatically win. If another team needs a chance to develop a gameplan against the whimsical comps, then it sounds like the meta has a whole heck of a lot of developing to do.

2. I’m not so sure even you believe what you’ve just said here. I know for a fact loads of people all over the forums don’t see it, so this sort of video that demonstrates the fact that it’s the players instead of the classes that are winning is very welcome indeed.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Sprawl.3891:

i would not consider using some off the wall build for a short period of time to mean it is successful.

1. Teams you are playing are seeing this setup for first time and dont have a chance to develop a gameplan against you.

2. most games are won/lost by strategy/movement not classes. i.e. your team could probably run 5 of one class or 3 engis and 2 necros and still beat some top teams.

1. The whole point of this thread and those videos is to prove that some pre-determined class comps defined by the meta do not automatically win. If another team needs a chance to develop a gameplan against the whimsical comps, then it sounds like the meta has a whole heck of a lot of developing to do.

2. I’m not so sure even you believe what you’ve just said here. I know for a fact loads of people all over the forums don’t see it, so this sort of video that demonstrates the fact that it’s the players instead of the classes that are winning is very welcome indeed.

players win, classes make it easier. It’s easier to hold a point with some bunkers than others. It’s easier to roam with some classes vs others. Can you win without them? of course but you must work harder at it since the game lacks balance.

The team running 5 engis wins games. The games they win on their own skill merits would have been easier wins if they were running a more balanced comp.

Is it easier to repair the treb with a portal mesmer or an ele with perma-swiftness?

and of course the meta still has to develop theres like 50 people who take GW2 pvp seriously lol.

Oh Sprawl, saying funny things and running it into the ground as usual.

I love these videos, I’d love to see more of some different compositions outside of the meta. Thanks for posting the builds too!

EaGrimdarK.7849:

Oh Sprawl, saying funny things and running it into the ground as usual.

I love these videos, I’d love to see more of some different compositions outside of the meta. Thanks for posting the builds too!

ah my stalker friend is back! and I never said anything bad. power is pro. if they are still having success vs the few good teams that play a week from now I will be more impressed

Slowclap, was fun to watch and an interesting match up, I wish good players posted more so the forums wouldn’t be super dominated by QQ.

So when do we get to see “Best 5 Engis in Africa” vs “kittentheRules”?

Sprawl.3891:

Mesmer make things easier, period. You can be successful with other builds but it requires more work. This is fact. Had they had simply used a portal/TW mesmer and swapped one person out they would have won easier/faster.

Just because something may or may not be harder to use does not make it less viable. That’s what we’re saying! Mesmer portal + timewarp is not required to win!

well… its unlikely to win a team fight if the enemy has time warp and you don’t. Time Warp is infuriating

The games were very fun. No offense taken Powerr! Glad you’re trying to break the “meta”. We (Team Paradigm) are going to review some things and see if we can play against this without changing our comp. : ] We also tried to run something interesting for a period of time that I might want to go back to in the future. Watch out ! ; ]

Good luck to the new PZ btw!

Hope to see more good games in the future!

one interesting thing about the meta, is it creates a tendency to play a certain way.
Sometimes, just playing outside that area takes people outside there comfort zones and you can get a suprise win. Even if your set up isnt objectively better.

Another thing, is that when a meta gets established, sometimes another setup (ala magic card games), which while not in itself as versatile or useful, counters the current meta hard and therefore becomes playable at the top level. Often while ironically being not ideal at the levels below top.

Also, a highly rated team winning paids isnt unusual. Did you win vs any competition that, had you been on your regular team make up, would have given you trouble?

Powerr.3649:

well… its unlikely to win a team fight if the enemy has time warp and you don’t. Time Warp is infuriating

Free pro-tip: use reflection.

Great vids, guys. Show the sheeple the light of day. Unfortunately, it won’t do much good. The only way to break down that wall is to keep banging our heads against it, obviously.

Sprawl.3891:

Wise.8025:

Sprawl.3891:

Follidus.8027:

I really liked what you guys did today. I really liked that you streamed it, because I didn’t even realize you were streaming today!

I hope these vods show people that you can win without a bunker guardian, and without a mesmer. imo trends are started, and then other people copy them because it’s easy. When everyone copies a trend then it becomes “required.”

That lineup today was very scary!

Mesmer make things easier, period. You can be successful with other builds but it requires more work. This is fact. Had they had simply used a portal/TW mesmer and swapped one person out they would have won easier/faster.

So you’re suggesting TP were beat before the match even started? Sorry I disagree. Mesmer may be familiar and therefore easier in that sense but having a specific class in your group does not win the day. Having good players and great teamwork does. Did you hear their communication? Maybe they put in a little more effort because the classes being played weren’t the ones they were most familiar with, but that’s the only reason.

no what im saying is with a portal mesmer you can move multiple people between points instantly which makes any match easier than without one.

You can move between two points instantly for 20-seconds if that and if your team is coordinated…..After which you must wait a minute and a half to drop the opening portal again and then you must drop the exit portal at a STRATEGIC location within a minute. So it makes matches easier for 20 seconds every 2-2 1/2 min.

daydream.2938:

one interesting thing about the meta, is it creates a tendency to play a certain way.
Sometimes, just playing outside that area takes people outside there comfort zones and you can get a suprise win. Even if your set up isnt objectively better.

So true. Some players from very respectable teams even seem lost when I they get stuck in 1v1s or 1v2s—I guess is that people have been working so hard at 4v4 and quickly 2v1ing a point away from a mesmer that there isn’t time to do the other stuff?

That said, these vids are impressive. As people have said, they’re winning because of communication and teamwork, not because a 2-ele/2-ranger/guard group is better than the competition. I do think the game is at a point where people are SO fast at winning 2v1s that the so-called “bunker meta” is practically disappearing…

Had fun getting stomped by this comp today in Paids.

I don’t want to be mean or anything but after watching second vid streaming, with Sceptre/dagger, i was really dissapointed.

You didn’t play bad or anything, you were using those skills, trying to aim them and so, but i coulnd’t see anything besides you running around and healing the damage done.

I understand that you are trying to do some damage since you are using valkyries, and only have 14k hp, but still i don’t see any damage comming from you. I was watching the numbers, and i barely saw any, you were hitting 600 with 2 lighting skill, barely hit 1k with ur auto attack from air, and so on, I really didn’t see any damage comming out from you, better switch to dagger/dagger, scepte dagger really seems to be useless. You could’ve done alot more with dagger dagger

Powerr.3649:

well… its unlikely to win a team fight if the enemy has time warp and you don’t. Time Warp is infuriating

Played quite a few tourneys today….used timewarp one time fighting a bunker guard…. Applications are very situational and since your team is trying to hold multiple objectives in PVP. Only 1 or two people aside from the mesmer will be able to make use of it. I have seen it countered I have seen it rendered completely useless by a tanky warrior using whirling attack.and if your ENTIRE team is in one place at one time… Well that’s bad.strategy right there

Splody.2640:

I don’t want to be mean or anything but after watching second vid streaming, with Sceptre/dagger, i was really dissapointed.

You didn’t play bad or anything, you were using those skills, trying to aim them and so, but i coulnd’t see anything besides you running around and healing the damage done.

I understand that you are trying to do some damage since you are using valkyries, and only have 14k hp, but still i don’t see any damage comming from you. I was watching the numbers, and i barely saw any, you were hitting 600 with 2 lighting skill, barely hit 1k with ur auto attack from air, and so on, I really didn’t see any damage comming out from you, better switch to dagger/dagger, scepte dagger really seems to be useless. You could’ve done alot more with dagger dagger

I’m actually using a clerics amulet because it’s a support build, but good lookin out for me. You would see drastically different numbers with a valkyrie’s or soldiers.

The tactic with the build is to might stack as much as possible, its really just luck if you can manage to connect with your non pre-cc’d DT’s.

Powerr.3649:

well… its unlikely to win a team fight if the enemy has time warp and you don’t. Time Warp is infuriating

Correct me if I’m wrong here Mr power person. You create this thread because you run a “non meta” build after beating a team once. Being consistent is key my friend, sure if you beat them once that’s the element of surprise, continue to beat a known team and you might have something going for your comp setup. Furthermore you say it’s unlikely to win a team fight without time warp but yet you run with no mesmer and win. So aren’t you contradicting yourself?

I have played non meta teams and had success with them. I think people need to wake up and actually experiment with comp setup. But for the majority everyone just wants to play whats “proven”, with little thought into something different which probably already exists. And until the rest of them figure it out then we simply won’t see a large diversity in comp setup.

I was simply stating that the odds are against you if your team is timewarped on and you dont have it. Against competent enemies that is.. Some of these responses have been taken completely out of proportion

Powerr.3649:

Some of these responses have been taken completely out of proportion

Yup. People want to prove you wrong in something.

They dont want to they feel they need to…

Powerr.3649:

Thank you and here are the builds:

Powerr’s S/D Spec
Powerr’s Hybrid D/D
Java’s Tanky Trap Ranger
Kaypud Build
Vyndetta’s build is a secret to all man-kind, you will never figure out the masterminds secrets!

We hope to go large with teampz.com having it act as the meta guide site for guild wars 2. We want top players, any player really, posting their builds and guides much like TSM does with solomid.net

Help it get popular :P

As I expected, the 2 rangers are using the only 2 semi viable builds rangers have, tanky trap condis and evasion tank. This is my problem with the class.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

Powerr.3649:

Thank you and here are the builds:

Powerr’s S/D Spec
Powerr’s Hybrid D/D
Java’s Tanky Trap Ranger
Kaypud Build
Vyndetta’s build is a secret to all man-kind, you will never figure out the masterminds secrets!

We hope to go large with teampz.com having it act as the meta guide site for guild wars 2. We want top players, any player really, posting their builds and guides much like TSM does with solomid.net

Help it get popular :P

As I expected, the 2 rangers are using the only 2 semi viable builds rangers have, tanky trap condis and evasion tank. This is my problem with the class.

Believe it or not, Ranger has more than just trap build. I do agree though, if the class had some better trait lines and weapons(and dmg increase) meshed well with those traits, their would be many viable builds. Sadly this is a problem for the majority of the classes if not all =\

Limited variety in builds is super common for alot of classes.

100BWARRIOR anywhere?

It’s also a problem the devs have pointed out they want to address by making at least 5-6 builds viable. The meta matters, but I think a lot of people seriously overstate it’s value. PZ has been consistently pointing out how strong their new aggressive comp is.

While its interesting to see something different than what has been we have seen for months and months, its still going to be difficult to spur innovation:

1) PZ is an experienced team that doesn’t have to worry about farming for tickets so you can afford to run experimental and/or troll comps.

A new team who has to spend multiple hours farming in frees or straight up buying tickets just to even enter paids will be less likely to try a troll comp and likely lose them, especially when they can only participate in a limited number of paid matches per week.

2) You may have won some matches, but running a standard comp probably would have made those wins even easier. Grats for being able to win while trolli… err experimenting.

Lets be real, if anything was on the line like an actual ranking based on wins and losses, people will only run the best comps. That is why PZ has so many QPs in the first place. Its only recently that the vast majority of people consider QPs a joke although many figured it out 2 weeks after paids launched and most teams quit.

3) Ultimately there is such a small pool of players and teams that this is an example of bored people trying to make a broken, unsatisfying system fun. A few hardcore people can try all day to get people to play the game, but when Anet as a company beyond 2 devs doesn’t care about spvp, players won’t either.

This doesn’t prove anything.

Let’s say that every member of team PZ was cloned (so that we have two teams of identical skill) and one version of the team ran this build, while the other ran the standard metagame build. The latter would win 10 times out of 10. All this proves is that PZ are better at the game than TP. Nobody ever denied that player skill trumps builds. However, when two teams of equal skill face off, the one running the superior team composition will always win.