while i’ll agree with you that having different game modes in a rotating manner, within one tpvp matchup doesn’t sound good, I disagree about implementing new game modes.
Honestly what’s the harm it will do? You say make balancing harder but in what way?
The worst it will do is bring complaints about why it’s not that fun. From there, Anet can just temporarily disable that game mode.
You can’t be so quick to make assumptions without experiencing something to come to a solid conclusion.
The harm that will do is it will take manpower away from things we want/need now: private servers, rating system, spectator client.
Things will be harder to balance because of the situation when X ability is “overpowered” in conquest, but is ok and not used that much in CTF. Do you nerf it? Do you buff it? Do you try to change it so it works decently in both? Do you leave it the way it is? What about PvE? Do you make it a different spell for each pvp mode + PvE and make it more confusing?
Nerf bunkers and add team death match (3 v 3, 5 v 5)
Then we will see varietyOh but this won’t happen anytime soon maybe in another 4 5 months
If they added death matches every game would be 20 seconds long with almost no depth to it. There are no healers so you don’t do things like swapping and CCing to setup kills. It’s just spam damage into someone and kill them.
Imo reverse CTF would fix this whole game.
To pick up the flag you have to channel for 3 seconds.
Person with the flag has no attack besides flag ones which may just be like, aoe cripples etc.
Bunkers protect flag.
Roamers escort flag / carry flag.
I don’t see how that would be any better than conquest. It would just be zerg the flag carrier, and peel for the flag carrier.
Conquest with these secondary objectives provides a lot of depth to the game that hasn’t been explored yet. The community is fairly small so most people are in the mindset that you are “required” to have different classes/builds, or run certain strats.
Simply stated, if they aren’t going to make big changes to the classes themselves, then new gametypes are needed, on a random rotation for tPvP.
Map 1 could be standard conquest,
Map 2 CTF
Map 3 Assassinate the preferred target aka, kill the main chosen enemy and you get a point. 5 points to a win.Force people to pick builds that compliment a number of scenarios rather than a set map rotation.
Then don’t allow them to changes traits between matches. Now suddenly when one team innovates in one of the three areas, other teams have to change accordingly.
etc.
No offense, but that’s a terrible idea. You should be able to change comps between different maps, let alone different game modes.
Having different game modes also makes balancing a lot harder.
while i’ll agree with you that having different game modes in a rotating manner, within one tpvp matchup doesn’t sound good, I disagree about implementing new game modes.
Honestly what’s the harm it will do? You say make balancing harder but in what way?
The worst it will do is bring complaints about why it’s not that fun. From there, Anet can just temporarily disable that game mode.
You can’t be so quick to make assumptions without experiencing something to come to a solid conclusion.
Personally, I believe only the rating system is needed immediately, followed by variety.
Give people a way to sort the goods from the bads, and expand the game to bring in new blood who are interested to play. Then when the community is large enough put in custom’s and spectator.
We don’t need a spectator mode when we can’t even break 500 viewers (as a game) on twitch of all places.
Nerf bunkers and add team death match (3 v 3, 5 v 5)
Then we will see varietyOh but this won’t happen anytime soon maybe in another 4 5 months
If they added death matches every game would be 20 seconds long with almost no depth to it. There are no healers so you don’t do things like swapping and CCing to setup kills. It’s just spam damage into someone and kill them.
Imo reverse CTF would fix this whole game.
To pick up the flag you have to channel for 3 seconds.
Person with the flag has no attack besides flag ones which may just be like, aoe cripples etc.
Bunkers protect flag.
Roamers escort flag / carry flag.
I don’t see how that would be any better than conquest. It would just be zerg the flag carrier, and peel for the flag carrier.
Conquest with these secondary objectives provides a lot of depth to the game that hasn’t been explored yet. The community is fairly small so most people are in the mindset that you are “required” to have different classes/builds, or run certain strats.
Simply stated, if they aren’t going to make big changes to the classes themselves, then new gametypes are needed, on a random rotation for tPvP.
Map 1 could be standard conquest,
Map 2 CTF
Map 3 Assassinate the preferred target aka, kill the main chosen enemy and you get a point. 5 points to a win.Force people to pick builds that compliment a number of scenarios rather than a set map rotation.
Then don’t allow them to changes traits between matches. Now suddenly when one team innovates in one of the three areas, other teams have to change accordingly.
etc.
No offense, but that’s a terrible idea. You should be able to change comps between different maps, let alone different game modes.
Having different game modes also makes balancing a lot harder.
while i’ll agree with you that having different game modes in a rotating manner, within one tpvp matchup doesn’t sound good, I disagree about implementing new game modes.
Honestly what’s the harm it will do? You say make balancing harder but in what way?
The worst it will do is bring complaints about why it’s not that fun. From there, Anet can just temporarily disable that game mode.
You can’t be so quick to make assumptions without experiencing something to come to a solid conclusion.
Personally, I believe only the rating system is needed immediately, followed by variety.
Give people a way to sort the goods from the bads, and expand the game to bring in new blood who are interested to play. Then when the community is large enough put in custom’s and spectator.
We don’t need a spectator mode when we can’t even break 500 viewers (as a game) on twitch of all places.
Even with a rating system it’ll never separate the goods from bad players. Even bad players can manage to get high ratings so there is no escape with that stuff.
I have the same issue on my mesmer. Only one build seems to be the best, restricting me to use it and limiting my creativity in every way.
As i said before, simply having more build variety for each classwould be enough to make this game more entertaining and enjoyable.
If with your preferred class you’re forced to play a certain thing to be competitive, in a game with so much “possible” customization ( unlike WoW, that’s why those game are not comparable), the game becomes boring soon, and moreover all those people ttrying to play the way they want are simply “forced out” from competitive PvP, because they won’t go that far in it with their sub-par playstyle.
The high-end will be stickied with people who enjoy that “thin freedom” which is made by those handful of maximized builds, or with those ones who don’t care what they’re playing as long as they can win.
Not so many, as you can think.
Add this to the unattractiveness of PvP in this game, to the PvP community being split over and over and ( hot joins, frees and paids, NA and EU etc etc) and you have a perfect idea why the PvP community in this game is so small.
Hi, my name is Defektivex.
I primarily play a Warrior.
Well, right there’s your problem. You’re playing the class with the worst unique mechanic in the game. I was going to make a write-up on this. Warrior has a horrifically boring and one-dimensional mechanic. No wonder you feel like you’re going crazy. I couldn’t do it. Elementalist is really the only class in this game with a truly interesting mechanic. Necromancer is alright. Everything else is “Yeah, alright, I get 4 more skills, I guess,” or something just plain awful like Ranger or Warrior (Engie is pretty bad too since most of their class abilities are all RNG gimmicks). Guardian Virtues are pretty brainless too. I wish GW2 gave individual professions flexibility and uniqueness with class mechanics and not just “HER’S UR ODDER UTILITEE—GO MORE DAMAGE NOW.”
Oh, I’m sorry, I got off topic, haha.
I guess to address sPvP itself with regards to your problem as a Warrior (“My class mechanic sucks.”), the only solution would be for GW2 to add… well, yeah, more variety to a mission other than “Stand in this circle to win!”
ANet should do Fort Aspenwood again, except this time make both sides trying to take a castle instead of one team eternally on defense and the other on offense. Jade Quarry was a fun map too (capture shrines and keep your shrine NPC defenders alive lest you lose the shrine, but also make sure your shrine NPC carriers took their packages from the shrine back to your base to score a point). Even just straight up deathmatch too—I mean, Random Arenas? How is that not a thing? How is the only PvP option in GW2 an abomination of AB that shames all of the fun memories I had slashing and capping through Kanaai, Etnaran, Saltspray, Grenz and the Ancestral Homelands? More importantly, how in Dwayna’s name does stacking a point not influence its cap rate at all? That’s just basic, ANet.
I swear, these people are just trying to make me think that they’ve always secretly hated all of the good things about Guild Wars 1.
while i’ll agree with you that having different game modes in a rotating manner, within one tpvp matchup doesn’t sound good, I disagree about implementing new game modes.
Honestly what’s the harm it will do? You say make balancing harder but in what way?
The worst it will do is bring complaints about why it’s not that fun. From there, Anet can just temporarily disable that game mode.
You can’t be so quick to make assumptions without experiencing something to come to a solid conclusion.
The harm that will do is it will take manpower away from things we want/need now: private servers, rating system, spectator client.
Things will be harder to balance because of the situation when X ability is “overpowered” in conquest, but is ok and not used that much in CTF. Do you nerf it? Do you buff it? Do you try to change it so it works decently in both? Do you leave it the way it is? What about PvE? Do you make it a different spell for each pvp mode + PvE and make it more confusing?
That’s a valid point that you bring up
But ultimately Anet has enough data and footage to know what unique abilities would do more harm and what abilities won’t be gamebreaking.
Furthermore, once they implement a game mode like “CTF” then they will get feedback from players about what is working and what isn’t
I also want to say there’s been some good posts since my last post in this thread
Specifically @MrBig’s post
I think when it comes down to it, it is about the professions and their efficiency with variety. GW2 is such a unique game in regards to how it centers itself around the professions. This is a good game but Anet has to get back to what this game is really about and if they refocus their efforts on each profession then it would do wonders.
If the whole “trinity” ideology is thrown out the window, then you have to do a very good job in making each class/profession be very efficient in performing various things. At this current time, that just isn’t the case for many professions.
I also want to say there’s been some good posts since my last post in this thread
Specifically @MrBig’s post
I think when it comes down to it, it is about the professions and their efficiency with variety. GW2 is such a unique game in regards to how it centers itself around the professions. This is a good game but Anet has to get back to what this game is really about and if they refocus their efforts on each profession then it would do wonders.
If the whole “trinity” ideology is thrown out the window, then you have to do a very good job in making each class/profession be very efficient in performing various things. At this current time, that just isn’t the case for many professions.
That’s exactly my point.
I mean, it would be good if we had at least some way to play the game differently.
i’m a thief, i have to play glass cannon in serious PvP, and altough it can be considered “support”, i’d like to do something different, to have a better survivability ( at least with some builds, and we should be careful wehn talking about this, since stealth won’t prevent capping, meaning P/D builds are totally useless in tPvP).
The majority of thief weaponsets are totally worthless or subpar ( and this is a very common problem with lots of classes) and we have basically only a couple of viable trait combinations.
Right now only some classes are in a good spot regarding roles ( eles and guards, enges to a certain extent and rangers, altough they’re also forced to a couple of builds).
it’s true this is a team game, but if these were their plans, i’d like to understand the reason behind all those traitlines and all those different weaponsets.
This is why I quit playing my Guardian after 840 hours. The pigeon-holding extends into WvW as well as tPvP, and it’s old. You want to play a Guardian? More than half your build is pre-determined because only certain things are effective, while everything else is sub-par. The only things that are really competitive are bunker builds or bunker/support hybrids.
I’ve tried so many different combinations of weapons/gear/traits/skills, I must have tried every potentially viable build you could think of. In my final days I would retrait nearly 10 times a day.
(edited by Alarox.4590)
This is why I quit playing my Guardian after 840 hours. The pigeon-holding extends into WvW as well as tPvP, and it’s old. You want to play a Guardian? More than half your build is pre-determined because only certain things are effective, while everything else is garbage. And the only things that are competitive are bunker builds or bunker/support hybrids.
I’ve tried so many different combinations of weapons/gear/traits/skills, I must have tried every potentially viable build you could think of. In my final days I would retrait nearly 10 times a day.
guards have at least 3-4 viable builds.
If guardian players are not satisfied with them, think for a moment about a necro or a thief or a warrior.
Nerf bunkers and add team death match (3 v 3, 5 v 5)
Then we will see varietyOh but this won’t happen anytime soon maybe in another 4 5 months
If they added death matches every game would be 20 seconds long with almost no depth to it. There are no healers so you don’t do things like swapping and CCing to setup kills. It’s just spam damage into someone and kill them.
Imo reverse CTF would fix this whole game.
To pick up the flag you have to channel for 3 seconds.
Person with the flag has no attack besides flag ones which may just be like, aoe cripples etc.
Bunkers protect flag.
Roamers escort flag / carry flag.
I don’t see how that would be any better than conquest. It would just be zerg the flag carrier, and peel for the flag carrier.
Conquest with these secondary objectives provides a lot of depth to the game that hasn’t been explored yet. The community is fairly small so most people are in the mindset that you are “required” to have different classes/builds, or run certain strats.
Simply stated, if they aren’t going to make big changes to the classes themselves, then new gametypes are needed, on a random rotation for tPvP.
Map 1 could be standard conquest,
Map 2 CTF
Map 3 Assassinate the preferred target aka, kill the main chosen enemy and you get a point. 5 points to a win.Force people to pick builds that compliment a number of scenarios rather than a set map rotation.
Then don’t allow them to changes traits between matches. Now suddenly when one team innovates in one of the three areas, other teams have to change accordingly.
etc.
No offense, but that’s a terrible idea. You should be able to change comps between different maps, let alone different game modes.
Having different game modes also makes balancing a lot harder.
It’s the only plausible solution.
The other alternative is to completely re-work all the classes, which obviously isn’t going to happen.
Different modes will force people to use different builds. What use would a team have for a bunker in DM? Guardians would be forced to use more offensively oriented builds.
(edited by Chi Malady.2015)
This is why I quit playing my Guardian after 840 hours. The pigeon-holding extends into WvW as well as tPvP, and it’s old. You want to play a Guardian? More than half your build is pre-determined because only certain things are effective, while everything else is garbage. And the only things that are competitive are bunker builds or bunker/support hybrids.
I’ve tried so many different combinations of weapons/gear/traits/skills, I must have tried every potentially viable build you could think of. In my final days I would retrait nearly 10 times a day.
guards have at least 3-4 viable builds.
If guardian players are not satisfied with them, think for a moment about a necro or a thief or a warrior.
No they don’t.
They only have one build they can use (0/0/30/20/20), although several weapon sets are viable with it.
I guess you can create slight variations of that build, but that won’t dramatically change the playstyle.
(edited by Chi Malady.2015)
This is why I quit playing my Guardian after 840 hours. The pigeon-holding extends into WvW as well as tPvP, and it’s old. You want to play a Guardian? More than half your build is pre-determined because only certain things are effective, while everything else is garbage. And the only things that are competitive are bunker builds or bunker/support hybrids.
I’ve tried so many different combinations of weapons/gear/traits/skills, I must have tried every potentially viable build you could think of. In my final days I would retrait nearly 10 times a day.
guards have at least 3-4 viable builds.
If guardian players are not satisfied with them, think for a moment about a necro or a thief or a warrior.
No they don’t.
They only have one build they can use (0/0/30/20/20), although several weapon sets are viable with it.
false.
10-30-30- triple meditation build is pefectly viable.
GS healing mark build with zerker is perfectly viable.
add the bunker build, playable with at least 2 different weaponsets, and you have AT LEAST 4 tPvP viable builds.
If the whole “trinity” ideology is thrown out the window, then you have to do a very good job in making each class/profession be very efficient in performing various things. At this current time, that just isn’t the case for many professions.
The problem is they never really got rid of the trinity. Some classes were still designed to fill specific roles (i.e. guardian was clearly designed to be a tank).
This is why I quit playing my Guardian after 840 hours. The pigeon-holding extends into WvW as well as tPvP, and it’s old. You want to play a Guardian? More than half your build is pre-determined because only certain things are effective, while everything else is garbage. And the only things that are competitive are bunker builds or bunker/support hybrids.
I’ve tried so many different combinations of weapons/gear/traits/skills, I must have tried every potentially viable build you could think of. In my final days I would retrait nearly 10 times a day.
guards have at least 3-4 viable builds.
If guardian players are not satisfied with them, think for a moment about a necro or a thief or a warrior.
No they don’t.
They only have one build they can use (0/0/30/20/20), although several weapon sets are viable with it.
false.
10-30-30- triple meditation build is pefectly viable.
GS healing mark build with zerker is perfectly viable.
add the bunker build, playable with at least 2 different weaponsets, and you have AT LEAST 4 tPvP viable builds.
I ran triple meditation in the betas. I highly doubt it’s still viable (although I haven’t been keeping up). I haven’t run into a single guardian running it successfully in tournaments.
@ Alarox.4590 & Chi Malady.2015
Guardians have a lot of viable builds, probably more than any other class.
Starting with bunkers, no 0/0/30/20/20 is not the only bunker build. I run 0/10/10/30/20, for example. There are also a big variation in weapons, as well.
You can also go offensive. Here are 2 builds that work in tournament play:
http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-7g-BdFKOFk40I3JG-90;9;6TT9;449A2691;0Y-k77Nl7qNYCqNnC5kr
This second one can also work as a backpoint defender. It is not a bunker, but by running 2 teleports you can quickly teleport back to your backpoint if someone is going for it. However to use this well you have to pay attention/have teammates call out where people are and when they respawn.
http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-7Fk3dFKSFk20I33GF90;9;49TT;01;019A40B;4LBX76wk2l3IBl3IB6BC
Jumper even has a glass-cannon guardian build that he uses pretty well in hotjoin. www.twitch.tv/loljumper to check his build out.
However, as I said many times on these forums, you might not see these as often because people just copy what other people do. But when this happens, that does not mean other things are not as effective. Please change your mindset.
@ Alarox.4590 & Chi Malady.2015
Guardians have a lot of viable builds, probably more than any other class.Starting with bunkers, no 0/0/30/20/20 is not the only bunker build. I run 0/10/10/30/20, for example. There are also a big variation in weapons, as well.
You can also go offensive. Here are 2 builds that work in tournament play:
http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-7g-BdFKOFk40I3JG-90;9;6TT9;449A2691;0Y-k77Nl7qNYCqNnC5krThis second one can also work as a backpoint defender. It is not a bunker, but by running 2 teleports you can quickly teleport back to your backpoint if someone is going for it. However to use this well you have to pay attention/have teammates call out where people are and when they respawn.
http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-7Fk3dFKSFk20I33GF90;9;49TT;01;019A40B;4LBX76wk2l3IBl3IB6BCJumper even has a glass-cannon guardian build that he uses pretty well in hotjoin. www.twitch.tv/loljumper to check his build out.
However, as I said many times on these forums, you might not see these as often because people just copy what other people do. But when this happens, that does not mean other things are not as effective. Please change your mindset.
At least if they won’t believe in me ( random guy talking on forums) , they’ll believe in one of top guards in NA.
The guardian is in a very good spot, the only thing it can’t do is being a roamer, due to obvious lacks on the mobility side.
the ele is the only class being closer to the guard in term of viability, and altough it has only one really strong build ( the common aurashare build), you can do some slight variation ( 20 water and 20 arcane) to go offensive, as long as you have good sinergy with your team.
And however, the 0-10-0-30-30 build can be played in at least 5 different ways ( 2-3 amulets, D/D, S/D bunker or staff support) , completely changing the way you play your class.
Ranger and engi can be played very differently too ( altough they have only a couple of very strong builds) the only really pigeon holed classes are war, thief, mesmer and necro.
Some things don’t even make sense for most classes ( thief traps, mantras, necro minions) and i’d like to udnerstand aNet plans regarding this game balance, because they can’t really be serious with their “balance phylosophy” .
Even though it would cause balance problems at this stage I feel tiered traits need to go. It is killing build diversity I need access to 2nd tier traits in the 1st tier spot etc to make different builds optimal. I don’t understand why there isn’t more community outcry for seeing tiered traits go the way of the dodo? Would it make some super builds sure but then you could balance from a more varied playing field.
This…..
I run into this problem so much when trying to make new builds for engineer. We basically have 1 option for condition healing and your forced to spend 20 points in elixirs. And jus because you have the trait doesn’t actually make it worth it. Now you actually have to use elixirs (at least 2 to be worth it in my experience). Or if you want grenades to even be worth it at all you have to spend 30 points. This eliminates so many builds that could be viable it’s not even funny.
There are a vast variety of builds that are viable in tPvP, even paids – stop whining and try something new.
Not really and it’s not whining at all. It’s pretty much the truth that there isn’t much variety of builds that can’t do well play in pvp overall. Unless you can prove it in every paid tournament you do while recording it. If you can’t do that than your statement here is pretty much useless and in everything you’re just telling us shut up.
Simply not true:
1) Chieftain Ninjas, PZ and Team Paradigm have been running 1-2 Rangers the last few days and it works just fine.
2) Team Paradigm has been running Engi instead of Thief (which is used in most lineups) forever and it seems to work.
3) A lot of Top-Tier Teams have been toying around with full glass-cannon lineups and although they’ve played it for fun, it did quite well.
4) Onibawan runs Magz as Warrior quite often and he does well.
5) Forsaker from Team Royal Legion runs a D/D Power-Necro on certain Maps and it does well.
6) Supernova Jpn (I don’t know how active they are now), used to run an offensive Greatsword-Guardian as a Roamer in 90% of the games I saw of them and Mad Fury of SpNv ran a Greatsword/Rifle-War almost every game (and they were both one of the best Teams in GW1 as well as a Team with their owns playstyle and builds).
7) Team Paradigm even ran lineups without Mesmer but with a Node-def Guardian, pretty much during the time they were most dominating and where a lot of good teams still played GW2.
8) Just a few weeks ago, Teams on the EU-Server have been starting to run an Ele as a Bunker that offensively pushes to the opponents node and keeps it neutral. Now it’s considered extremely strong and is run by like 90% of the teams on EU. I’m sure it’s strong, but it can also be countered quite hard, so we’ll probably see a metagame-shift on EU very soon, probably with some new builds we haven’t seen before.
Also, there are tons of builds for every class, that could work in tpvp, if they are in the right lineup, on the right map and played well, ppl just like to stick to what works and what they’re used to.
(edited by PowerBottom.5796)
At least if they won’t believe in me ( random guy talking on forums) , they’ll believe in one of top guards in NA.
I don’t believe anyone on their word without evidence and explaination, and anyone who does believe something, solely because of the prestige of the person telling them it, is doing an injustice to themselves.
@ Alarox.4590 & Chi Malady.2015
Guardians have a lot of viable builds, probably more than any other class.Starting with bunkers, no 0/0/30/20/20 is not the only bunker build. I run 0/10/10/30/20, for example. There are also a big variation in weapons, as well.
You can also go offensive. Here are 2 builds that work in tournament play:
http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-7g-BdFKOFk40I3JG-90;9;6TT9;449A2691;0Y-k77Nl7qNYCqNnC5krThis second one can also work as a backpoint defender. It is not a bunker, but by running 2 teleports you can quickly teleport back to your backpoint if someone is going for it. However to use this well you have to pay attention/have teammates call out where people are and when they respawn.
http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-7Fk3dFKSFk20I33GF90;9;49TT;01;019A40B;4LBX76wk2l3IBl3IB6BCJumper even has a glass-cannon guardian build that he uses pretty well in hotjoin. www.twitch.tv/loljumper to check his build out.
However, as I said many times on these forums, you might not see these as often because people just copy what other people do. But when this happens, that does not mean other things are not as effective. Please change your mindset.
Read my post. I’m not a mindless person who goes on forums asking for the fotm build and accepting the opinions of others as fact. As you’re about to find out, I’m a stubborn SOB who bases his opinions on his own experiences and testing.
The first build you posted above I mentioned. The second one I forgot to mention but I’ve run it many times before, 1h offensive Meditiation build for 1v1 battles. That makes 2 competitive builds so far, 0/0/30/20/20 (and the variations thereof) and x/30/30/x/x.
0/10/10/30/20, why is it a better bunker than 30 Valor. I’m not saying it can’t work, but I don’t see how it would be more effective. I assume you do that to gain more support and maximum condition removal? Pure of Voice + Absolute Resolution which can’t be achieved while going 30 Valor. However, it is still essentially the same old bunker build with a change of 10 points into Radiance.
That’s entirely my point though. Want to go bunker? 30 Valor and/or 40 points in Honor+Virtues with Shouts. Want to go support? 30 Valor and/or 40 points in Honor+Virtues with Shouts. Want to go offensive and be competitive? 30 Valor with Meditiations/AH otherwise you’ll drop quickly since you’ll be taking offensive gear rather than Soldier’s for bunkering. Those are clearly the best.
On my Guardian I never run 30 Valor. I rarely even go 20 Valor. I believe the last build I ran was 15/15/10/25/5 Hammer/Scepter-Focus. My favorite build I came up with was 15/30/0/25/0 Mace-Focus/Scepter-Shield based on Vulnerability spiking, with an overall 20-45% additional damage from the Vulnerability and from two +10% damage traits, in addition to massive critical chance. They’re cool builds, and they’re a lot of fun, but they’re not on the same tier as a 1h Meditation.
There need to be more viable options instead of the game being balanced upon the current best builds of every Profession, which means useless skills/traits won’t ever be looked at and our limited choices will stay limited. By choice, I don’t mean 10-20 points and a utility slot, I mean most of a build being choice and not pre-determined when going for maximum effectiveness.
(edited by Alarox.4590)
There need to be more viable options instead of the game being balanced upon the current best builds of every Profession, which means useless skills/traits won’t ever be looked at and our limited choices will stay limited. By choice, I don’t mean 10-20 points and a utility slot, I mean most of a build being choice and not pre-determined when going for maximum effectiveness.
But the problem is that the bunker thing( hold a shrine alone) reduces as well a lot strategies and builds used. Almost every single opponent in free tournament is a guild running 1-2 eles, guardian, mesmer and necro, and they’re usually all using the same tactic..
What might be problem is that, in theory, bunker builds should have like no damage. I’m going to quote Guild Wars 1 again, but the few similar builds there were spikes( no damage aside of the spike) or heavy defensive builds, made only for some objectives, and thus weren’t killing you as easily as some builds here which are also very good at keeping a shrine..
Read my post. I’m not a mindless person who goes on forums asking for the fotm build and accepting the opinions of others as fact. As you’re about to find out, I’m a stubborn SOB who bases his opinions on his own experiences and testing.
The first build you posted above I mentioned. The second one I forgot to mention but I’ve run it many times before, 1h offensive Meditiation build for 1v1 battles. That makes 2 competitive builds so far, 0/0/30/20/20 (and the variations thereof) and x/30/30/x/x.
0/10/10/30/20, why is it a better bunker than 30 Valor. I’m not saying it can’t work, but I don’t see how it would be more effective. I assume you do that to gain more support and maximum condition removal? Pure of Voice + Absolute Resolution which can’t be achieved while going 30 Valor. However, it is still essentially the same old bunker build with a change of 10 points into Radiance.
That’s entirely my point though. Want to go bunker? 30 Valor and/or 40 points in Honor+Virtues with Shouts. Want to go support? 30 Valor and/or 40 points in Honor+Virtues with Shouts. Want to go offensive and be competitive? 30 Valor with Meditiations/AH otherwise you’ll drop quickly since you’ll be taking offensive gear rather than Soldier’s for bunkering. Those are clearly the best.
On my Guardian I never run 30 Valor. I rarely even go 20 Valor. I believe the last build I ran was 15/15/10/25/5 Hammer/Scepter-Focus. My favorite build I came up with was 15/30/0/25/0 Mace-Focus/Scepter-Shield based on Vulnerability spiking, with an overall 20-45% additional damage from the Vulnerability and from two +10% damage traits, in addition to massive critical chance. They’re cool builds, and they’re a lot of fun, but they’re not on the same tier as a 1h Meditation.
There need to be more viable options instead of the game being balanced upon the current best builds of every Profession, which means useless skills/traits won’t ever be looked at and our limited choices will stay limited. By choice, I don’t mean 10-20 points and a utility slot, I mean most of a build being choice and not pre-determined when going for maximum effectiveness.
This is my bunker build: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAS7elUg67WFSLEfIFSmiVKBtKEQYPwoMqjuK4QA;TsAgzCooyyklILbWuskZt+Y8xmAA
Different people run different things when they bunker. I use clerics, but some people use soldiers. I use scepter/shield + hammer, but some people use mace, staff, focus, or sword. There’s variation in traits, there’s variation in weapons, there’s variation in your amulet/stats.
It seems like you’re upset not because there’s x amount of guardian builds that have proven themselves already, but because your guardian build has not proven itself already.
But here’s the thing.
1. It’s generally a bad idea to make a build from scratch for x (whether it’s paid tournaments, free tournaments, hot joins) if you don’t have a lot of experience in x. I see this a lot, and most of the time it will not work. The person just gets mad and says “kitten this broken game, only 1 build is viable.” What you need to do is look at why other builds are successful, and then make your build later.
2. I have yet to see any team in this game, on the US side, take it to the next level with coordination. Not to make this a WoW thread, but that top-tier coordination between non-melee cleaves is what I’m talking about. Bringing it back to GW2, your build that takes advantage of vulnerability stacking probably isn’t used to it’s fullest because your team lacks the coordination to do so.
You see other builds and compositions that succeed because they don’t get hurt as much without that group coordination. ex. a mesmer with portal doesn’t have to know where the enemy team is, he just has to look at his point at the top of the screen for when the swords icon comes up. He then knows someone is there and can teleport back. Since this is easy, does that make it the best and only way to defend a back point? No.
Yes, your own build might be able to put a 20 stack of vulnerability, but are you coordinating it with your team so that they use their burst when that vulnerability is up? Are you putting on other conditions to prevent vulnerability from being cleansed as easily? Are you using boon removal to remove protection/stability? Are you using CC like immobilize or stuns to make sure the guy can’t dodge or avoid the burst? No? Then how can you say your build is not viable?
Read my post. I’m not a mindless person who goes on forums asking for the fotm build and accepting the opinions of others as fact. As you’re about to find out, I’m a stubborn SOB who bases his opinions on his own experiences and testing.
The first build you posted above I mentioned. The second one I forgot to mention but I’ve run it many times before, 1h offensive Meditiation build for 1v1 battles. That makes 2 competitive builds so far, 0/0/30/20/20 (and the variations thereof) and x/30/30/x/x.
0/10/10/30/20, why is it a better bunker than 30 Valor. I’m not saying it can’t work, but I don’t see how it would be more effective. I assume you do that to gain more support and maximum condition removal? Pure of Voice + Absolute Resolution which can’t be achieved while going 30 Valor. However, it is still essentially the same old bunker build with a change of 10 points into Radiance.
That’s entirely my point though. Want to go bunker? 30 Valor and/or 40 points in Honor+Virtues with Shouts. Want to go support? 30 Valor and/or 40 points in Honor+Virtues with Shouts. Want to go offensive and be competitive? 30 Valor with Meditiations/AH otherwise you’ll drop quickly since you’ll be taking offensive gear rather than Soldier’s for bunkering. Those are clearly the best.
On my Guardian I never run 30 Valor. I rarely even go 20 Valor. I believe the last build I ran was 15/15/10/25/5 Hammer/Scepter-Focus. My favorite build I came up with was 15/30/0/25/0 Mace-Focus/Scepter-Shield based on Vulnerability spiking, with an overall 20-45% additional damage from the Vulnerability and from two +10% damage traits, in addition to massive critical chance. They’re cool builds, and they’re a lot of fun, but they’re not on the same tier as a 1h Meditation.
There need to be more viable options instead of the game being balanced upon the current best builds of every Profession, which means useless skills/traits won’t ever be looked at and our limited choices will stay limited. By choice, I don’t mean 10-20 points and a utility slot, I mean most of a build being choice and not pre-determined when going for maximum effectiveness.
This is my bunker build: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAS7elUg67WFSLEfIFSmiVKBtKEQYPwoMqjuK4QA;TsAgzCooyyklILbWuskZt+Y8xmAA
Why do you have 10 points in radiance? What use does a bunker with 2700 attack and base 12% crit have for fury? It doesn’t synergize with the rest of the build.
This is more of a support build than bunker in terms of skills/gear though. I suppose it can serve a purpose in the right team, but I still believe you would get more utility out of a standard bunker.
To get back on topic:
I also believe part of the problem is the stigma from teams that there’s only a couple of ways to play a class. When someone on their team wants to innovate and try something new – and it fails the first time around (hence: New) – then they ask to go back to the status quo.
This forces that player to stop experimenting, and to return to his/her old habit.
Essentially the community is a toxic environment for potential innovators.
I agree with you to a point, getting into a team that you’re not familiar with yes I definitely see that being the stigma, but it really just comes down to how forgiving the team is. Personally, I think one of the biggest problems is the imbalance between the different weapons for all the classes.
Speaking of the warrior specifically, we have some weapons that are amazing and others that are argueably useless. The GS gives you two charges for mobility one of which also does amazing damage, and a channeled burst ability that can gib just about anyone not paying attention. The axe has one of the hardest hitting adrenal abilities with the best sustain damage on 1 spam. Then there’s the other weapons…
Sword – Almost forces the warrior into stacking condition damage for bleeds, which get stripped off constantly against any good team.
Hammer – Good luck making use of the CC against blinds, AoE stability, and enjoy being kited to death by any ranged profession. Also has an AoE knockback that forces you to stand stationary for 3/4 of a second giving your targets just enough time to move out of its range (lol)?
Mace – Almost seems slower than the hammer somehow, and suffers from the same problems as the hammer.
Warhorn – Speed buff…nothing else.
Rifle – All single target, has the most telegraphed adrenal ability in the game.
Longbow – …lol?
I’ve made my point and I know that all other classes have the exact same problem. I’d love it if A-net did a rework of the under-used weapons for every profession but given the gargantuan amount of time it’s taking them to fix the bugs that have been in since beta, I don’t see it happening.
(edited by Kugron.5128)
I agree with you to a point, getting into a team that you’re not familiar with yes I definitely see that being the stigma, but it really just comes down to how forgiving the team is. Personally, I think one of the biggest problems is the imbalance between the different weapons for all the classes.
Speaking of the warrior specifically, we have some weapons that are amazing and others that are argueably useless. The GS gives you two charges for mobility one of which also does amazing damage, and a channeled burst ability that can gib just about anyone not paying attention. The axe has one of the hardest hitting adrenal abilities with the best sustain damage on 1 spam. Then there’s the other weapons…
Sword – Almost forces the warrior into stacking condition damage for bleeds, which get stripped off constantly against any good team.
Hammer – Good luck making use of the CC against blinds, AoE stability, and enjoy being kited to death by any ranged profession. Also has an AoE knockback that forces you to stand stationary for 3/4 of a second giving your targets just enough time to move out of its range (lol)?
Mace – Almost seems slower than the hammer somehow, and suffers from the same problems as the hammer.
Warhorn – Speed buff…nothing else.
Rifle – All single target, has the most telegraphed adrenal ability in the game.
Longbow – …lol?
I’ve made my point and I know that all other classes have the exact same problem. I’d love it if A-net did a rework of the under-used weapons for every profession but given the gargantuan amount of time it’s taking them to fix the bugs that have been in since beta, I don’t see it happening.
I’m actually getting rather fond of Longbow in tPvP. Got to use it against PZ in paids last night on Khylo. Rather enjoyed myself.
I agree with you to a point, getting into a team that you’re not familiar with yes I definitely see that being the stigma, but it really just comes down to how forgiving the team is. Personally, I think one of the biggest problems is the imbalance between the different weapons for all the classes.
Speaking of the warrior specifically, we have some weapons that are amazing and others that are argueably useless. The GS gives you two charges for mobility one of which also does amazing damage, and a channeled burst ability that can gib just about anyone not paying attention. The axe has one of the hardest hitting adrenal abilities with the best sustain damage on 1 spam. Then there’s the other weapons…
Sword – Almost forces the warrior into stacking condition damage for bleeds, which get stripped off constantly against any good team.
Hammer – Good luck making use of the CC against blinds, AoE stability, and enjoy being kited to death by any ranged profession. Also has an AoE knockback that forces you to stand stationary for 3/4 of a second giving your targets just enough time to move out of its range (lol)?
Mace – Almost seems slower than the hammer somehow, and suffers from the same problems as the hammer.
Warhorn – Speed buff…nothing else.
Rifle – All single target, has the most telegraphed adrenal ability in the game.
Longbow – …lol?
I’ve made my point and I know that all other classes have the exact same problem. I’d love it if A-net did a rework of the under-used weapons for every profession but given the gargantuan amount of time it’s taking them to fix the bugs that have been in since beta, I don’t see it happening.
I’m actually getting rather fond of Longbow in tPvP. Got to use it against PZ in paids last night on Khylo. Rather enjoyed myself.
The longbow is not THAT bad to be honest: a good AoE weapon, better after the increased velocity on arrows.
But GS and axe/shield are still overall better.
About pigeon holing, try to play a thief for a session, you’ll know dat feel.
Why do you have 10 points in radiance? What use does a bunker with 2700 attack and base 12% crit have for fury? It doesn’t synergize with the rest of the build.
This is more of a support build than bunker in terms of skills/gear though. I suppose it can serve a purpose in the right team, but I still believe you would get more utility out of a standard bunker.
Beyond doing paid tournaments, I pop into streams every now and then, and I also duel people a lot. Not to be egotistical, but one thing I hear is common: I am one of the harder bunkers to kill in NA. I’m not saying I’m amazing, because I make lots of mistakes and have a lot of room for improvement, but I just want to point that out before you trash on build. This is because I base my build around avoiding damage rather than sitting there and taking it. At the same time I can help people kill things because of all the CC I bring. I can also neutralize points from people if need be via knockbacks into roots.
10 Points in radiance gives me a few things that most people overlook.
First, it gives +4% crit, which takes my build from 8% (because of knights jewel) to 12% crit. Most bunkers overlook crit completely, and stick with 4% crit.
Why?
Well, when you look at the 5 point honor trait you gain vigor (+100% endurance) for 5 seconds when you crit. More endurance leads to more dodging, which leads to more survival. Dodging, as a bunker guardian, not only gives you the ability to avoid attacks, but it also heals you a little bit with the 15 point honor trait. This is the biggest reason why I use clerics amulet.
As for the actual traits in radiance, I take the 5 point trait for the on demand blind. Are you stomping without stability? You can blind the interrupt mid stomp. Don’t want to use a dodge, or can’t dodge a hammer knockback from the other guardian? Blind it so you can use your dodge on the trebuchet.
I take the 10 point trait “inner fire” because there was nothing better to take with those extra 5 points. It’s not amazing, but it’s still ok. Every time burning on you gets refreshed you will gain fury, which helps you with more vigor and more dodging. You’re especially weak to condition damage builds compared to direct damage builds with this build, so you get a boost when you fight them.
Also, while you are a bunker you still do some damage that you want to maximize. For example, my Hammer 2 Skill will crit for ~2k on most targets. That’s pretty good.
I agree with you to a point, getting into a team that you’re not familiar with yes I definitely see that being the stigma, but it really just comes down to how forgiving the team is. Personally, I think one of the biggest problems is the imbalance between the different weapons for all the classes.
Speaking of the warrior specifically, we have some weapons that are amazing and others that are argueably useless. The GS gives you two charges for mobility one of which also does amazing damage, and a channeled burst ability that can gib just about anyone not paying attention. The axe has one of the hardest hitting adrenal abilities with the best sustain damage on 1 spam. Then there’s the other weapons…
Sword – Almost forces the warrior into stacking condition damage for bleeds, which get stripped off constantly against any good team.
Hammer – Good luck making use of the CC against blinds, AoE stability, and enjoy being kited to death by any ranged profession. Also has an AoE knockback that forces you to stand stationary for 3/4 of a second giving your targets just enough time to move out of its range (lol)?
Mace – Almost seems slower than the hammer somehow, and suffers from the same problems as the hammer.
Warhorn – Speed buff…nothing else.
Rifle – All single target, has the most telegraphed adrenal ability in the game.
Longbow – …lol?
I’ve made my point and I know that all other classes have the exact same problem. I’d love it if A-net did a rework of the under-used weapons for every profession but given the gargantuan amount of time it’s taking them to fix the bugs that have been in since beta, I don’t see it happening.
I’m actually getting rather fond of Longbow in tPvP. Got to use it against PZ in paids last night on Khylo. Rather enjoyed myself.
The longbow is not THAT bad to be honest: a good AoE weapon, better after the increased velocity on arrows.
But GS and axe/shield are still overall better.
About pigeon holing, try to play a thief for a session, you’ll know dat feel.
I used to think that too, but the extremely long CD on shield stance, makes it not as overall useful in terms of a longer fight. Plus 3 seconds on block isn’t long enough to deter an opponent.
Axe’s burst has been the GS builds bread and butter finisher, but it’s also easily dodged. I’ve seen arcing arrow do 7-8k crits on multiple people, and I can do it while I’m low on HP and retreating.
Not to mention the huge combo field and the burning ticks for 1k each.
Personally, I’m going to keep toying around with Longbow in tPvP and try my best to make it work. I feel with the right tweaking it could have a good pair of legs in this one horse race.
I agree with you to a point, getting into a team that you’re not familiar with yes I definitely see that being the stigma, but it really just comes down to how forgiving the team is. Personally, I think one of the biggest problems is the imbalance between the different weapons for all the classes.
Speaking of the warrior specifically, we have some weapons that are amazing and others that are argueably useless. The GS gives you two charges for mobility one of which also does amazing damage, and a channeled burst ability that can gib just about anyone not paying attention. The axe has one of the hardest hitting adrenal abilities with the best sustain damage on 1 spam. Then there’s the other weapons…
Sword – Almost forces the warrior into stacking condition damage for bleeds, which get stripped off constantly against any good team.
Hammer – Good luck making use of the CC against blinds, AoE stability, and enjoy being kited to death by any ranged profession. Also has an AoE knockback that forces you to stand stationary for 3/4 of a second giving your targets just enough time to move out of its range (lol)?
Mace – Almost seems slower than the hammer somehow, and suffers from the same problems as the hammer.
Warhorn – Speed buff…nothing else.
Rifle – All single target, has the most telegraphed adrenal ability in the game.
Longbow – …lol?
I’ve made my point and I know that all other classes have the exact same problem. I’d love it if A-net did a rework of the under-used weapons for every profession but given the gargantuan amount of time it’s taking them to fix the bugs that have been in since beta, I don’t see it happening.
I’m actually getting rather fond of Longbow in tPvP. Got to use it against PZ in paids last night on Khylo. Rather enjoyed myself.
Perhaps I’m not giving it enough credit then, I will admit I haven’t tried it since the increased velocity. I am a bit biased against rifle and LB as any ranged weapon on a warrior seems like blasphemy to me, but maybe I’m just old fashioned.
I agree with you to a point, getting into a team that you’re not familiar with yes I definitely see that being the stigma, but it really just comes down to how forgiving the team is. Personally, I think one of the biggest problems is the imbalance between the different weapons for all the classes.
Speaking of the warrior specifically, we have some weapons that are amazing and others that are argueably useless. The GS gives you two charges for mobility one of which also does amazing damage, and a channeled burst ability that can gib just about anyone not paying attention. The axe has one of the hardest hitting adrenal abilities with the best sustain damage on 1 spam. Then there’s the other weapons…
Sword – Almost forces the warrior into stacking condition damage for bleeds, which get stripped off constantly against any good team.
Hammer – Good luck making use of the CC against blinds, AoE stability, and enjoy being kited to death by any ranged profession. Also has an AoE knockback that forces you to stand stationary for 3/4 of a second giving your targets just enough time to move out of its range (lol)?
Mace – Almost seems slower than the hammer somehow, and suffers from the same problems as the hammer.
Warhorn – Speed buff…nothing else.
Rifle – All single target, has the most telegraphed adrenal ability in the game.
Longbow – …lol?
I’ve made my point and I know that all other classes have the exact same problem. I’d love it if A-net did a rework of the under-used weapons for every profession but given the gargantuan amount of time it’s taking them to fix the bugs that have been in since beta, I don’t see it happening.
I’m actually getting rather fond of Longbow in tPvP. Got to use it against PZ in paids last night on Khylo. Rather enjoyed myself.
Perhaps I’m not giving it enough credit then, I will admit I haven’t tried it since the increased velocity. I am a bit biased against rifle and LB as any ranged weapon on a warrior seems like blasphemy to me, but maybe I’m just old fashioned.
I don’t blame you, not a lot of people use it period. I got through 3 paids last night without my group even realizing I was running Longbow instead of Axe/Shield.
Which lends itself to two questions:
1) (this is the one I prefer), Longbow is comparable to Axe/Shield in terms of usefullness, so the fact that I wasn’t doing any ‘worse’ didn’t draw attention.
2) (this is the one I prefer to not think of), Warriors are irrelevant and people don’t pay attention to them.
—
Not to mention Pin Down is awesome to set up combos w/ teammates.
(edited by Defektive.7283)
There are a vast variety of builds that are viable in tPvP, even paids – stop whining and try something new.
Not really and it’s not whining at all. It’s pretty much the truth that there isn’t much variety of builds that can’t do well play in pvp overall. Unless you can prove it in every paid tournament you do while recording it. If you can’t do that than your statement here is pretty much useless and in everything you’re just telling us shut up.
Simply not true:
1) Chieftain Ninjas, PZ and Team Paradigm have been running 1-2 Rangers the last few days and it works just fine.
2) Team Paradigm has been running Engi instead of Thief (which is used in most lineups) forever and it seems to work.
3) A lot of Top-Tier Teams have been toying around with full glass-cannon lineups and although they’ve played it for fun, it did quite well.
4) Onibawan runs Magz as Warrior quite often and he does well.
5) Forsaker from Team Royal Legion runs a D/D Power-Necro on certain Maps and it does well.
6) Supernova Jpn (I don’t know how active they are now), used to run an offensive Greatsword-Guardian as a Roamer in 90% of the games I saw of them and Mad Fury of SpNv ran a Greatsword/Rifle-War almost every game (and they were both one of the best Teams in GW1 as well as a Team with their owns playstyle and builds).
7) Team Paradigm even ran lineups without Mesmer but with a Node-def Guardian, pretty much during the time they were most dominating and where a lot of good teams still played GW2.
8) Just a few weeks ago, Teams on the EU-Server have been starting to run an Ele as a Bunker that offensively pushes to the opponents node and keeps it neutral. Now it’s considered extremely strong and is run by like 90% of the teams on EU. I’m sure it’s strong, but it can also be countered quite hard, so we’ll probably see a metagame-shift on EU very soon, probably with some new builds we haven’t seen before.Also, there are tons of builds for every class, that could work in tpvp, if they are in the right lineup, on the right map and played well, ppl just like to stick to what works and what they’re used to.
As I said before and what Defektive was saying from the very start. What you just listed isn’t many builds at all that and only can be viable / acceptable in
Tpvp. You see these same builds in Spvp all the time, but do you ever see a lot of dual wield warriors or pistol / pistol thieves in Tpvp or in general? Not really and we also don’t see many other professions using different weapons / builds as well when it comes to pvp primarily.
This is why this topic and many others are brought up here in these forums. We players want to branch out and represent our builds and show that all specs can be viable in pve and pvp. We know there will be pros and cons, but it’s a lot better than being the same old cookie cutter builds we have to choose to be viable in pvp.
So Anet has a lot of work to do now if they want to make a spot for themselves in esport.
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