Guild Wars 2

I don’t understand why peopla are opposing the fact that this game is horribly unbalanced. Are you playing mesmer/guardian yourself anda re afraid of the nerf hammer…? Right now SPvP has boiled down to the team with the most Mesmers/Guardians wins. It´s a matchmaking lottery, if you are lucky you end up on the right team.

Right now sPvP is only frustrating and I actually hesitate to even play it.

It generally should work like this : HIgh offense, poor defense. Poor offense, high defense.

That’s where those 3 classes fail.

Mesmer can output alot of damage, with burst capability yet maintain the ability to avoid being hit/locked down. Moa morph is like having a 10 second stun for all intensive purposes with no way to get out.

Thief has very high burst/sustained dps, stealth and abilities to reset fights/escape when they choose. Their elites are very strong.

A defensive guardian is more defensive/higher utility than a defensive warrior. A dps guardian puts out more burst/higher utility/more defense than a glass cannon warrior.

That’s the problem. Other classes have to make sacrifices depending on what role they want to choose. Those 3 classes don’t. They excel in all areas so that’s why they feature so heavily in spvp.

It generally should work like this : HIgh offense, poor defense. Poor offense, high defense.
That’s where those 3 classes fail.
Mesmer can output alot of damage, with burst capability yet maintain the ability to avoid being hit/locked down. Moa morph is like having a 10 second stun for all intensive purposes with no way to get out.

As a random aside, actually due to the way mesmers have to build they normally run average defence average damage. Thing is that they run consistent dps, unlike basically every other profession in the game it seems, mesmers actually don’t have a glass cannon build you can run because they are awful. Then well sustain dps with survivability vs glass cannon, if you can survive the burst you win and this is where mesmers are right now.

Also yeah most mesmers dislike moa for a whole bunch of reasons, I’ve found the one solid use for it is shutting down a guardian who tries to cast his full heal elite. Most of the other mesmers I see posting are also now switching it out for timewarp/mass invis due to it’s pubstomp nature.

They excel in all areas so that’s why they feature so heavily in spvp.

I keep hearing people say this yet the class I see the most of is the warrior. Then thief, then it’s actually reasonably balanced among all classes other than mesmer. Last night for example I met no mesmers.

the OP is joking right? hes basically complaining about what these classes are MEANT to do well.

thieves are meant to have best burst dps and be greatly mobile. its the entire basis of the class and why initiative exists.

guardians are THE defensive class in this game

mesmer is a bit harder for me to judge but i know they are supposed to be “tricky” with all the mind manipulation and stuff.

so you want to take away what these calsses excel at. i dunno. at most i could see slight adjustments but really

if you play elemental, your play a almost universally acknowledged weak class, unless played perfectly or using very specific builds.

all the engineers ive seen were either sustain/defensive builds or they need some damage upgrades.

rangers i honestly dont know.

necro needs some buffs obviously.

warrior i also dont know, they seem fairly balanced, sort of a compromise between thief and guardian for damage/mobility.

im not saying the 3 classes you mention are the bench mark to be measured to, they may need some nerfs, but to bring them down to the level of a elementalist or necro would be overnerfing, those classes need buffed!

phaeris.7604:

Wow, a l2p comment.

And you play….let’s see from your comment history..oh look, a thief!

It’s funny. No matter what game i’ve played the stealth/thief class always attracts kids. Who are so terrified of their class having any sort of balancing they will justify any sort of claim with ‘L2P’ without any debate.

What previous ‘pvp’ game did you play before gw2? let me guess WoW?

i played a rogue in wow (and shaman, and mage, and deathknight etc)

rogues play almost nothing like thieves in this game.

I have to partially disagree with this thread.

First of all, Mesmers are a l2p issue. I am sorry, dont mean to offend anyone but I can tell you this from personal experience. I used to get frustrated so I rolled a mesmer and played around a while to get a feeling for the class, the various abilities and animations and their timings.

Know your enemy – it really does work.

Now, thief was actually my first character created , I have since abandoned her though. It’s too easy to faceroll to victory on a thief, that is true but potential power is not really completely out of balance to other professions. It’s just easier to achieve decent potential on the class, fixes may be difficult to implement.

Guardians are mostly fine and I agree their survivability seems a little high for the amount of group utility and still decent dps they provide. Some adjustments needed.

But the only classes that can really complain are elementalist and necromancers, every other class is FINE! If you come here and cry about the injustices in class balancing make sure you are maining a necromancer or elementalist otherwise you have no merit whatsoever

Warriors exist mostly in hotjoin matches in numbers more than one. 80 percent want to run the wombo combo because they think they will just dominate, the other 20 run the hammer spec/rifle spec and don’t do very well due to the fact those two rely on a good team to support you. The combo spec ones end up sorely dissapointed most of the time as any decent player can avoid it now.

I’ve come up against all classes, some players I can stomp, some stomp me. There’s no class I can consistently say I will always win against. Some I will beat quickly, others will be a long fight and some luck.

Every person I’ve faced who plays a mesmer will do well. It’s not possible that only the most skilled players happen to be choosing the mesmer. It’s the class mechanic.

Every person I’ve faced who plays a mesmer will do well. It’s not possible that only the most skilled players happen to be choosing the mesmer. It’s the class mechanic.

Every mesmer I’ve faced was awful, to the point they had minimal impact on the game. Personally I’ve found that there is basically no mesmers in PvP anymore except for the occasional one I meet in a tourney now and then. That said about 95% of players I meet are god awful so…

EDIT:

Well you do main a mesmer…..

Yeah and I mained a feral for 5 years, played ranger in aion, rune priest in WO etc… Just because I play a specific class doesn’t mean I can’t tell the bad players from the good players. Of the games I have played EVERY class other than the mesmer has had a least one player of that class who has wow’d me and made me feel like not only like they are skilled but also that they have a solid build and a good understanding of how to play the matchup. In fact I would say mesmer is the only class I’ve never faced a good player of.

Well you do main a mesmer…..

and it just so happens that you’re a more skilled player than 95 percent of the players you face…nothing to do with playing a mesmer…

The game is 3 weeks old. mesmers rely on their enemies ineptness more than other classes. That’s why they are doing so well now.

I should know, I was inept :-)

After playing a mesmer myself I am now prepared to face them. They rely more than other class on the element of surprise and unorganized opponents or better yet incompetent opponents. They are sokittensquishy when you lock them down though.

I don’t say that guardian, thief or mesmer are ovp, and I really dont think they are ovp. They can be countered, but the level of skill you need to play them and be as good as a necro(for example) is very low. I rolled a guardian yesterday for the lols, and with a tank build, i could hold points and kill people in tPVP-solo queue(not sPVP) just by spamming random buttons-and I don’t even know what my 1-5 skills do on my guardian(same with thief).
For me is kinda frustrating that playing necro in PVP is much much harder than G/T/M , and at the end of the day, playing that classes brings you the same results with less effort and skill(just spamming skills that are not on CD).
So, to sum it up, I don’t like the low skillcap on these classes.

After playing a mesmer myself I am now prepared to face them.

This really is the best solution, I hear people consantly complaining about stuff which is…..wrong. Had someone say a phantasm build was constantly poping the daze shatter on them a while ago, was like wut?

How can you say it is a L2P issue?

Mesmers can rip off your boons while applying conditions, do TONS of damage and make you useless for 10 seconds with Moa Morph. This while you don’t know where the real mesmer actually is, because they spam kittenload of clones.
No other class can performs as well as mesmer does in PvP, that’s because everyone is playing mesmer now.

Almost every Guardian skill heals! And they do this while spamming loads of boons, having huge toughness paired with heavy armor and doing decent damage. No other classes can performs as well as the Guardian in point control and defense.

Want to talk about thieves? They can kill a player in just 2-3 skills, no matters how much toughness or vitality you have. Who cares if they are glass cannons? When they aren’t hitting they are in stealth anyways.
What is the counter to this? Dodge? Also if you are in perfect timing to dodge a half second burst which come from nowhere, you are anyway getting killed by the same burst repeated some seconds after or 1-1-1-3-2-2 combo.

As someone said, the problem is that no professions can perform as well as these performs in their roles, which, guess what, they are the main roles of this game! Tank, DPS/control and burst damage…

No other class can performs as well as mesmer does in PvP, that’s because everyone is playing mesmer now.

I keep hearing this….I just don’t see it. As far as I can tell there are 0 other mesmers playing PvP atm.

Mesmers can rip off your boons while applying conditions, do TONS of damage and make you useless for 10 seconds with Moa Morph. This while you don’t know where the real mesmer actually is, because they spam kittenload of clones.

Spotting the mesmer is actually pretty easy since he’s the one doing stuff that players do, you then use “shift+T” to call target on him and you now have a massive target above his head, you then only need to redo this every ~36 seconds when he drops a decoy.

Moa, this has been talked about endlessly. Most bad players hate it and most good players have stopped using it since it’s major function is to stomp bads.

The condition/boon removal you are talking about is 1) a field, stop standing in it. 2) on a 45 second cd, has a cast time, can be dodged and blocked.

Play a mesmer for a bit, realize just how little you currently know about their abilities, then understand why you lose so easily to them.

@sorrow get your facts straight bud.

thives can kill a player with 1 skill lol. you know why? cuz thievs only have 1-2 damage skills per weapon set, everything else is utility.

now if you mean 2-3 skill presses! then your wrong, outside of maybe a complete glass cannon backstab build stacking might and assassins signet and getting a crit without taking hidden killer trait.

honestly on a more well rounded thief build (still arguably glass cannon in ways) the last thing i want to target is a warrior/guardian cuz it takes forever for just me to bring em down, i can do it, but it isnt as fast as you believe.

and we can only be in stealth from abilities. it takes 8 initiative (6 when traited) to get stealth with dagger/pistol, 6 (4) when landing CnD with dagger offhand (obvious animation, cast time, dodgeable, if you dodge it we dont get stealth nor the initiative reduction)

other then that its a 30 second Cd heal, 1min Cd utility skills, or shadow trap which we have no control over.

not to mention there are dodge thieves that hardly stealth if ever.

moa morph/thieves guild are pretty cheese tho imo.

stating that a mesmer can remove boons and add conditions is stating the mechanics of the class, not whether its OP or not. and i think the only ones that do high damage are phantasm builds arent they?

@sorrow,

You’re greatly exaggerating. It’s not terribly hard to spot the real Mesmer if you know what cues to watch for. No off-hands for one and lol Ctrl+ T. Guardians also do not heal on a majority of their skills, most don’t where did you even get that?

My first character since BWE #1 was the Necromancer, I played it all throughout the events and it was my first character since headstart. It’s now shelved, full exotic and everything but I no longer log back onto it. I’ve switched to playing Mesmers now for tPvP while leveling an Engy/Guardian in PvE.

The one thing Necromancers were touted to be their niche was condition manipulation and control. Oh except Mesmers do that bounds better. Mesmers even do minion bombing better than Necromancers and hell aren’t Necros supposed to be minion masters? I’m upset that a class that I’ve invested a lot of time researching, experimenting is completely outperformed in each angle that it was supposed to set itself apart from.

Malakree.5912:

I keep hearing this….I just don’t see it. As far as I can tell there are 0 other mesmers playing PvP atm.

You’re either blind or don’t do S/T PVP at all.

Malakree.5912:

Spotting the mesmer is actually pretty easy since he’s the one doing stuff that players do, you then use “shift+T” to call target on him and you now have a massive target above his head, you then only need to redo this every ~36 seconds when he drops a decoy.

This is a bug that doesn’t happen on all systems. For example, the mark is removed for me on my own computer every time the mesmer calls up a clone or goes invisible. Basically, every two to three seconds.

Malakree.5912:

Moa, this has been talked about endlessly. Most bad players hate it and most good players have stopped using it since it’s major function is to stomp bads.

Elite skill that basically eliminates a player for ten seconds with no possible removal. Yeah, mesmers stopped using it because it has a cast time, and they have better elites. Woe to the class that has better elites than this. I feel their pain. The agony must be unbearable.

Malakree.5912:

The condition/boon removal you are talking about is 1) a field, stop standing in it. 2) on a 45 second cd, has a cast time, can be dodged and blocked.

Instantly removes ALL boons if cast inside your face. The cast time is nothing unique. Neither is the ability to be dodged or blocked. And the mesmer can just walk through it to remove all conditions. 45s CD is not long, you’re just spoiled by the class that offers you everything. Go play something else, please.

Malakree.5912:

Play a mesmer for a bit, realize just how little you currently know about their abilities, then understand why you lose so easily to them.

Play something other than mesmer for a bit, realize how little of everything they have in their abilities, then understand why you roll face so easily with mesmers.

This is a bug that doesn’t happen on all systems. For example, the mark is removed for me on my own computer every time the mesmer calls up a clone or goes invisible. Basically, every two to three seconds.

I’d suggest you bug report that. It should be removed when someone goes invis, not sure if it should be removed on clone spawn though. Also, it’s not like its hard to spot which is the real mesmer, you have to know nothing about the class for it to be difficult.

Elite skill that basically eliminates a player for ten seconds with no possible removal. Yeah, mesmers stopped using it because it has a cast time, and they have better elites. Woe to the class that has better elites than this. I feel their pain. The agony must be unbearable.

Elite skill that has a long cast time, a long cooldown, is primarily use for stomping bads, still allows free movement so is often kited off, can be dodged, can be blocked. It’s got a whole bunch of problems with it that the other two don’t. I’m not arguing against changes to moa, a nice instant cast 5second moa on a 90sec cd would make it far more usable, as it is the other two allow for far more tactical play and are better if your not just after pubstomping.

Instantly removes ALL boons if cast inside your face. The cast time is nothing unique. Neither is the ability to be dodged or blocked. And the mesmer can just walk through it to remove all conditions. 45s CD is not long, you’re just spoiled by the class that offers you everything. Go play something else, please.

A 45 second cd which takes up a utility slot, randomly fails 50% of the time, can be blocked and dodged, and is only single target is pretty bad. I use it occasionally when the opposing team is entirely about buff stacking but considering mesmer has 1 free utility slot to play with it has a lot of competition.

Play something other than mesmer for a bit, realize how little of everything they have in their abilities, then understand why you roll face so easily with mesmers.

I do.

You’re either blind or don’t do S/T PVP at all.

Maybe it’s you who is blind or just see mesmers hiding round every corner?

Can someone explain to me how these classes do their roles so much better than others? I play a Guardian mainly and while the class is decent, they’re far from the most durable or even resilient class. We have 2 bubbles, one of which is on a 120sec cd and both can be completely ignored if you have stability. Our health is of the lowest tier, We can’t spec into condition damage very well, we have no cripples of any kind or stuns(unless you count the daze from tome of courage), Our ranged is of the worst in the game, and until recently, our elites are now sub par. Don’t get me wrong, we have good support through shouts. Symbols don’t count since no one ever stays in them long enough to reap the benefits. And to top this all off, a lot of our attacks have such noticeable telegraphs(you can strafe left/right and you can still move away from zealots embrace without having to use endurance)

So please, someone tell me how this class is so awesome when all of which I’ve listed are serious flaws.

Malakree.5912:

Spotting the mesmer is actually pretty easy since he’s the one doing stuff that players do, you then use “shift+T” to call target on him and you now have a massive target above his head, you then only need to redo this every ~36 seconds when he drops a decoy.

Moa, this has been talked about endlessly. Most bad players hate it and most good players have stopped using it since it’s major function is to stomp bads.

The condition/boon removal you are talking about is 1) a field, stop standing in it. 2) on a 45 second cd, has a cast time, can be dodged and blocked.

Play a mesmer for a bit, realize just how little you currently know about their abilities, then understand why you lose so easily to them.

The Boz has already answered for me (thanks!).

Wolfe.3097:

@sorrow get your facts straight bud.

thives can kill a player with 1 skill lol. you know why? cuz thievs only have 1-2 damage skills per weapon set, everything else is utility.

now if you mean 2-3 skill presses! then your wrong, outside of maybe a complete glass cannon backstab build stacking might and assassins signet and getting a crit without taking hidden killer trait.

honestly on a more well rounded thief build (still arguably glass cannon in ways) the last thing i want to target is a warrior/guardian cuz it takes forever for just me to bring em down, i can do it, but it isnt as fast as you believe.

and we can only be in stealth from abilities. it takes 8 initiative (6 when traited) to get stealth with dagger/pistol, 6 (4) when landing CnD with dagger offhand (obvious animation, cast time, dodgeable, if you dodge it we dont get stealth nor the initiative reduction)

other then that its a 30 second Cd heal, 1min Cd utility skills, or shadow trap which we have no control over.

not to mention there are dodge thieves that hardly stealth if ever.

moa morph/thieves guild are pretty cheese tho imo.

stating that a mesmer can remove boons and add conditions is stating the mechanics of the class, not whether its OP or not. and i think the only ones that do high damage are phantasm builds arent they?

1. I didn’t say that thieves kill people with just one skill. I’ve just said that so few skill casts are required to kill someone. By the way, all professions have only 2 high damage skills (just take a look), the point is that the thieves’ ones are too powerful compared to the other and have almost no casting time.
2. So am I too good at thief that I can kill someone with 1-1-1-3-2-2 with D/D or are you too bad that you can perform the same?
3. I agree with Guardians, just look at what I said before, but Warriors? Seriously?
4. I was running D/D with Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder and the trait which Stealth you on Steal. I was permamently in Stealth while not attacking.
5. Yes, removing boons and apply condition is a mechanic of the class. But you can do this job quite good while still doing high damage (yes, phantasm) and having great survivability (yes, clones). No other professions can do the same, neither the Necromancer is as good with pets, as good with debuff, as good at damage, as good at survivability (DS goes down really fast), as good at condition apply. Why the hell someone would choose Necromancer instead of a Mesmer? For the cool dark effects?

Lumines.3916:

@sorrow,

You’re greatly exaggerating. It’s not terribly hard to spot the real Mesmer if you know what cues to watch for. No off-hands for one and lol Ctrl+ T. Guardians also do not heal on a majority of their skills, most don’t where did you even get that?

My first character since BWE #1 was the Necromancer, I played it all throughout the events and it was my first character since headstart. It’s now shelved, full exotic and everything but I no longer log back onto it. I’ve switched to playing Mesmers now for tPvP while leveling an Engy/Guardian in PvE.

The one thing Necromancers were touted to be their niche was condition manipulation and control. Oh except Mesmers do that bounds better. Mesmers even do minion bombing better than Necromancers and hell aren’t Necros supposed to be minion masters? I’m upset that a class that I’ve invested a lot of time researching, experimenting is completely outperformed in each angle that it was supposed to set itself apart from.

The point is what when you have spotted it, since all mesmers run build with loads of clones and phantasms and load of stuns/dazes, killing a Mesmer, also the worse, is always a tough job.
Just look at Mace and Staff, plus they have a virtue which heals and the healing skill, of course. They also have 2-3 utility skills which heals and Tome of Courage.

I’m in the same situation as you. I’m a Necromancer, but I don’t want to reroll Mesmer, I just want to get this kitten fixed out.

I’m in the same situation as you. I’m a Necromancer, but I don’t want to reroll Mesmer, I just want to get this kitten fixed out.

Fortunately its not rerolling in this game. Seriously though, you NEED to go and play a mesmer. The amount of misinformation which is spread over this forum seems to be seriously crippling people over how to fight against various professions. If you have never played a mesmer and your main source of information about them is people making incorrect statements about their abilities and what they do then how can you possibly hope to beat one?

It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.

EDIT:

since all mesmers run build with loads of clones and phantasms and load of stuns/dazes

This is a perfect example of what I mean.

Malakree.5912:

Fortunately its not rerolling in this game. Seriously though, you NEED to go and play a mesmer. The amount of misinformation which is spread over this forum seems to be seriously crippling people over how to fight against various professions. If you have never played a mesmer and your main source of information about them is people making incorrect statements about their abilities and what they do then how can you possibly hope to beat one?

It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.

EDIT:

since all mesmers run build with loads of clones and phantasms and load of stuns/dazes

This is a perfect example of what I mean.

With rerolling I mean using another character as my main. Of course I’ve played mesmer, thief and guardian before I came here to say what I said and, after I’ve learnt the skills (just what they do), I’ve performed way better then my 100 hours Necromancer. Does it means that I’m negated with Necromancer? Does it means I’m not using Death Shroud properly (LOL)?
In my opinion, no.

Have you ever ran a full power build with minions+lich in sPvP with a Necro? Have you ever been morphed into Moa while you was in Lich Form and got all your minions despawned? There is no way to counter a skill that makes your elite + half of your utilities useless.

Know your enemies bla bla bla, funny how the mesmer doesn’t need to do that.
1. Drop some illusions
2a. Blow them up for massive damage.
2b. Let them kill your enemy while you’re… I don’t know. Thinking with Portals?
3. Gloat.
4. Tell your prey they just need to l2p, find your weaknesses, etc.
That’s pretty much what it boils down to.

Stadig.7325:

I don’t understand why peopla are opposing the fact that this game is horribly unbalanced. Are you playing mesmer/guardian yourself anda re afraid of the nerf hammer…? Right now SPvP has boiled down to the team with the most Mesmers/Guardians wins. It´s a matchmaking lottery, if you are lucky you end up on the right team.

Right now sPvP is only frustrating and I actually hesitate to even play it.

I’m not afraid of adjustments. I’m afraid of the wrong adjustments.

The majority of complaints are stemmed form ignorance of a Profession’s mechanics or how to counter them, and that’s why there’s opposition here.

There’s a laundry list of bugs on each class right now that need to be fixed before balance tweaks can be made, cause, quite simply, some of these bugs are crippling. And Mesmer has a few of its own, some of them are actually playing to their advantage. (iDuelist’s regen refresh rate. iWarden’s attack refresh speed.)

But a lot, and I mean a suprisingly large number of players are calling for nerfs because they do need to ‘learn to play’, in spite of the fact they claim that they are good.

I think what needs to happen here is people need to be helpful to one another instead of competitive and combative. What class are you playing against mesmer with? Perhaps there’s some tips a regular mesmer such as I myself can give you to save you troubles.

The Boz.2038:

Know your enemies bla bla bla, funny how the mesmer doesn’t need to do that.
1. Drop some illusions
2a. Blow them up for massive damage.
2b. Let them kill your enemy while you’re… I don’t know. Thinking with Portals?
3. Gloat.
4. Tell your prey they just need to l2p, find your weaknesses, etc.
That’s pretty much what it boils down to.

This simply isn’t true at all.

It’s just more common knowledge how to counter a 100swords Warrior or a burst damage thief.

A Mesmer goes up first time against something like an engineer and they can easily get face-rolled. And again, Rangers can be quite the bane as well. Not to mention try keeping illusions up in the AoEs of Necros and Elementalists.

Mesmers need to know the classes they face unless the class is playing poorly.

As far as ‘thinking with portals’. Portal is pretty much the only mesmer ability I feel is in the iffy department there. But it’s mainly countered by actually guarding the points you cap and not assaulting a point on your own.

A mesmer that has to flee to save themselves is still a mesmer who’s lost their engagement, and an active portal (both sides open) only lasts 12 seconds before the whole thing goes on a full one minute cooldown.

Methinks it could use a cooldown increase for the most part. But the whole ‘thinking with portals’ thing can be countered by, well, thinking with portals.

Have you ever been morphed into Moa while you was in Lich Form and got all your minions despawned? There is no way to counter a skill that makes your elite + half of your utilities useless.

That is the main use for moa imo, disabling other people elites. It despawns your minons?

Moa doesn’t block your skills like a daze or other transform skills, it flat out removes them. This results in all necromancer minions being instantly despawned and the skills used to spawn them go on cooldown.
Not sure if the same happens to mesmers and engineers, but it’s likely.

Malakree.5912:

Have you ever been morphed into Moa while you was in Lich Form and got all your minions despawned? There is no way to counter a skill that makes your elite + half of your utilities useless.

That is the main use for moa imo, disabling other people elites. It despawns your minons?

So the main use of Moa is being the counter of everything? Sounds balanced.

It is amazing the way everyone defending T/M/G are playing those classes. Seriously go start a tourny right now. Count the number of these classes on each team, I would bet ANYTHING the team with the higher number wins.

Its not even as much about the T/M its really the Guards. In a game mode about capping points a class that NEEDS 2 people to kill will ruin games. Two guards on a team and you may as well concede right from the start.

@OP’s edit. you say that these classes are far superior in comparison at everything but I fail to see the proof behind it. Stating something and supporting that statement are two different things. For instance I’m taking the opposing position on your argument because I’m certain that an Ele can have just as crazy burst and roam as a thief albeit with a higher skill cap. Like wise and Engineer can hold a point just like a guardian can the difference being a higher amounr of cond. dmg.

I don’t like to just generalize concerns as such, but there seems so be a massive L2P issue here. This game is not others you have played. This game is not balanced around 1v1 however despite some relatively small adjustments I think its pretty decent even in that sense. The main issue seems to stem from the lack of comprehension of the meta game that has stemmed perhaps from the hot join play that makes up so much of the pvp that people have experienced.

I hear “guardians are over powered because they are too defensive” which I assume doesn’t mean people are getting solo destroyed by one (unless they are bad), but more likely that the guardian was able to hold the player off until more of their team members arrived – at which point said player got nuked. Working as intended. Guardians are extremely susceptible to bleeds and conditions and until more players take the meta game into consideration when choosing their spec (which will likely always feel less rewarding choice in hot join) then there will always be specs that go more commonly un-countered.

Speaking of thieves, they are purely glass cannon, as they should be. Are they more easily successful in hot join – where everyone burns every defensive ability they have in a mad rush to get a stomp off? yes. But again, working as intended. If played against correctly, thieves can be killed just as quick as they can kill.
I hope that with the addition of duels or some feature that would allow players to more directly explore the potential of their class, that some of these things will come to light.

This being said, I dont think it woud be a bad idea at all to limit tourney play to one of each class per team. It would only serve to increase the utilization of potential across all classes, and heighten the meta game.

Sargon.9132:

@OP’s edit. you say that these classes are far superior in comparison at everything but I fail to see the proof behind it. Stating something and supporting that statement are two different things. For instance I’m taking the opposing position on your argument because I’m certain that an Ele can have just as crazy burst and roam as a thief albeit with a higher skill cap. Like wise and Engineer can hold a point just like a guardian can the difference being a higher amounr of cond. dmg.

What other proofs do you need other than everyone and their mother on this forum section is complaining about the above three said classes. People posts screenshots and videos as well to show how op these classes are so you might want to look those up.

Just yesterday, I was playing with a group and we would lose every game probably because our composition didn’t have any mesmer/guardian/thief. So two of the members in the group decided to switch to their mesmer and thief see if we can improve the win ratio and behold, we won three out of the four games we played. It’s amazing how one mesmer and one thief can have such an impact on the win ratio…

To everyone who disagree that these classes don’t need a nerf, do this. Do about 10 tourney games BY YOURSELF and count how many of those games is win by the team with the most mesmer/guardian/thief. Then report back here and tell us why you still think these classes are fine as they are.

Lewk.8359:

Mr. Big, where does a necro fall into this? Who should play a necro and for what purpose that isnt achieved BETTER by playing one of the top three classes? Who should play a warrior when they can play Guardian? Who should play any dps class when thief will outperform their dps and mobility?

hehe I thought the same. I just played a few spvp games and was attacked and I thought “oh luckily that’s just a warrior not a guardian” haha.

Also a good question of Lewk: Where does the necro excell and what role does he perfom so greatly?

Debuffs? Mesmer’s are better (especially in pve because warriors and thieves apply bleeds much faster) and seem to scale better.

Minions? Hey, Mesmer minions do attack, distract opponents and can even be blown up for various things and if killed there just come more. Necro’s…killed in seconds, non-existend minion AI, do often nothing, bugged like hell, if killed they are on a huge cooldown.

Burst? hahaha…sorry no, not even in a power spec. Death Shroud? Just prolongs the inevitable.

We`ve went from warrior is OP.
To warrior and Thief are OP.
To thief is OP.
To thief and mesmer and OP.
To mesmer is OP.
To mesmer and guardian are OP.

Without them really changing anything.

Untouch.2541:

We`ve went from warrior is OP.
To warrior and Thief are OP.
To thief is OP.
To thief and mesmer and OP.
To mesmer is OP.
To mesmer and guardian are OP.

Without them really changing anything.

pretty much. Its why noone will ever be taken seriously.

Byrko.6145:

I don’t like to just generalize concerns as such, but there seems so be a massive L2P issue here. This game is not others you have played. This game is not balanced around 1v1 however despite some relatively small adjustments I think its pretty decent even in that sense. The main issue seems to stem from the lack of comprehension of the meta game that has stemmed perhaps from the hot join play that makes up so much of the pvp that people have experienced.

I hear “guardians are over powered because they are too defensive” which I assume doesn’t mean people are getting solo destroyed by one (unless they are bad), but more likely that the guardian was able to hold the player off until more of their team members arrived – at which point said player got nuked. Working as intended. Guardians are extremely susceptible to bleeds and conditions and until more players take the meta game into consideration when choosing their spec (which will likely always feel less rewarding choice in hot join) then there will always be specs that go more commonly un-countered.

Speaking of thieves, they are purely glass cannon, as they should be. Are they more easily successful in hot join – where everyone burns every defensive ability they have in a mad rush to get a stomp off? yes. But again, working as intended. If played against correctly, thieves can be killed just as quick as they can kill.
I hope that with the addition of duels or some feature that would allow players to more directly explore the potential of their class, that some of these things will come to light.

This being said, I dont think it woud be a bad idea at all to limit tourney play to one of each class per team. It would only serve to increase the utilization of potential across all classes, and heighten the meta game.

As you said at the start of your post, this game isn’t like the other you’ve played. You can’t come here saying “each profession are supposed to do well one job” when there is no holy trinity and each profession can spec in any role.

But when Thieves outperform everyone’s damage by far, when Mesmers outperforms everyone’s CC and DoT and when Guardians outperform everyone’s defenses, then it isn’t a L2P issue, it is a balance issue.

Untouch.2541:

We`ve went from warrior is OP.
To warrior and Thief are OP.
To thief is OP.
To thief and mesmer and OP.
To mesmer is OP.
To mesmer and guardian are OP.

Without them really changing anything.

You’re missing the context.

For players whose only experience with sPvP is hotjoin 8v8, Warriors and Thieves seem overpowered. This is because they don’t have the experience yet to understand how to counter Quickness + Hundred Blades and/or Pistol Whip/Hearseeker spam. Getting blown up in 2 seconds certainly feels overpowered. Play the game for a week or so and you quickly come to realize that these abilities are counterable if you know what you look for.

For players who play organized tPvP, on the other hand, Thieves, Guardians and Mesmers seem OP because they’re objectively better at their respective roles than every other class in the game. It’s not even that they’re OP necessarily, so much as that all other classes are underpowered in relation to them.

No class is better at 1v1 or treb support than Mesmer. No class is better at group utility and point defense than Guardian. No class is better at roaming than Thief. If you opt to bring another class instead of one of these 3 right now, you are nerfing your team. It’s that simple.

For a game that wants to be a competitive eSport, this is a serious problem which needs to be addressed. It’s not whining or an L2P issue, it’s simply recognizing that certain classes are objectively better than others, and that further balancing is required to remedy the issue.

@mouse: Well-said and pretty spot on.

he only thing this game needs is for elementalists to get a huge buff

Are you kiddin or are you serious here ? Eles got the most devastating AoEs

People just need to stop thinkin about burstin in single target when they aren’t supposed to. Only one attunement do sort of single target damage (lightning), just look at all others.

Well played Ele usin rune of tempest + stuff givin your 5 next attacks 100% crit chance with appropriate weapons will do such a huge damage you won’t even believe it.

Repeat after me : Elementalists are designed for nukin AT RANGE WITH AOES

I somewhat agree with what you’ve said, I personally play a guardian and at times I do feel that my survivability outmatches other players, however if you’re requesting some sort of nerf towards our heals/boons at least provide something in return.

For instance, the Guardian health pool is pretty slim so maybe increase that whilst reducing something that potentially increases the guardians survivability, at times I’ve seen a thief hit over half of my health pool from single backstabs.

Thieves damage output is a little crazy at the moment, as with Warriors (Eviscerate/100b) with 100b being quite easily avoided. Quickness is the stat that scales a little crazy with both of the classes imo.

This is talk from someone whose only just scratched the surface of sPvP, so I’d imagine it’s a big difference between sPvP and what happens in tPvP.

sorrow.2364:

But when Thieves outperform everyone’s damage by far, when Mesmers outperforms everyone’s CC and DoT and when Guardians outperform everyone’s defenses, then it isn’t a L2P issue, it is a balance issue.

First, I disagree. Pretty much every class in this game has high burst potential, each one has to set up that burst differently. Thief, does this set up more traditionally and therefore you claim it’s overpowered. But get caught in the wrong combo by a Warrior, Engineer, Elle and you’re just as dead.

Thief’s defenses tend to rely mostly on its stealths, especially when you’re talking burst glass cannons like the one you’re complaining about. This is severely a learn to play issue in particular. You shut down a thief early, it can’t get the combo it wants off, and melts.

Same with Guardian. Yes, they are heavily tanky, but to do so, they have to sacrifice most of everything else to get that way, and is most often reliant on keeping up buffs to survive. So strip off the buffs, lay down the conditions and watch him choke to death.

Mesmers are reliant on their illusion mechanics. They fuel their shatters, are a huge source of their damage output, and pretty much the core of their own defenses. You shut down the illusions, you shut down the mesmer.

There needs to be a clearer latter ranking or ‘elo’ system to start weeding out the bads and organized players/groups from one another to start truly making established tactics. Cause right now there’s a pretty big skill disparity between players and that’s causing bad feedback to be given.

I am in support against Profession Stacking in tournaments for the time being so players don’t have to worry too much about it. However many of the people who are trying to make feedback are not actually making apt and intelligent critisim. They’re just complaining., and it’s kinda saddening.

Again, hopefully Anet realizes that much of this is players ignoring obvious solutions to their problems, refusing to admit “Hey, my build is bad for this trend.” And changing until they find something that clicks well.

I think itll prob be easier to just let everyone feel what they feel. If they honestly feel the way they do about overpowered underpowerd out matched professions then so be it. Its like this in every game where a majority dont feel its a learn to play issue when it is. We can all sit here and argue whether something is or isnt we’ll find out when Anet decides to take action or not, then everyone will get their answer.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

sorrow.2364:

But when Thieves outperform everyone’s damage by far, when Mesmers outperforms everyone’s CC and DoT and when Guardians outperform everyone’s defenses, then it isn’t a L2P issue, it is a balance issue.

First, I disagree. Pretty much every class in this game has high burst potential, each one has to set up that burst differently. Thief, does this set up more traditionally and therefore you claim it’s overpowered. But get caught in the wrong combo by a Warrior, Engineer, Elle and you’re just as dead.

Thief’s defenses tend to rely mostly on its stealths, especially when you’re talking burst glass cannons like the one you’re complaining about. This is severely a learn to play issue in particular. You shut down a thief early, it can’t get the combo it wants off, and melts.

Same with Guardian. Yes, they are heavily tanky, but to do so, they have to sacrifice most of everything else to get that way, and is most often reliant on keeping up buffs to survive. So strip off the buffs, lay down the conditions and watch him choke to death.

Mesmers are reliant on their illusion mechanics. They fuel their shatters, are a huge source of their damage output, and pretty much the core of their own defenses. You shut down the illusions, you shut down the mesmer.

There needs to be a clearer latter ranking or ‘elo’ system to start weeding out the bads and organized players/groups from one another to start truly making established tactics. Cause right now there’s a pretty big skill disparity between players and that’s causing bad feedback to be given.

I am in support against Profession Stacking in tournaments for the time being so players don’t have to worry too much about it. However many of the people who are trying to make feedback are not actually making apt and intelligent critisim. They’re just complaining., and it’s kinda saddening.

Again, hopefully Anet realizes that much of this is players ignoring obvious solutions to their problems, refusing to admit “Hey, my build is bad for this trend.” And changing until they find something that clicks well.

I agree so hard with everything you’ve said.

A lot of what they are saying though are basically saying the core mechanic of x job is broken.

Phantasems from Mesmers.

Defense/Support abilities from Guardians.

Burst/Evasion tactics from Thieves.

There is no ‘tone down’ that prevents this problem. They already tried with Hartseeker Strike. Doesn’t change baddies who are spamming it, doesn’t destroy their burst.

You’re going to make the closest thing this game has to a tank less tanky? Have fun in PvE, thanks. And no, they likely wont separate PvE and PvP performance levels.

In the end the bulk of the adjusting will likely be done on the player side, not the mechanic’s side.

Wait

You think mesmer has the best DoT potential?
Do you even play mesmer?

Engineer and necro WAY outclass mesmer is condition damage.

I’d like to point out that during the beta that mesmer was considered one of the weakest classes in the game.

Barely anything changed in terms on balance, but now they’re considered one of the strongest.
Thieves too.

I recommend people head over to twitch.tv and check out a mesmer by the name of xee. Tell me he doesn’t have insane burst and high survivability. Again, this thread isn’t about what people pugging hot join games feel about classes, it’s about tournament play and which classes have the highest potential ceiling caps when played correctly in the roles they are designed for. And that happens to be the thief, mesmer and guardian.

Untouch.2541:

I’d like to point out that during the beta that mesmer was considered one of the weakest classes in the game.

Barely anything changed in terms on balance, but now they’re considered one of the strongest.

This is false. Mesmers and Thieves received a major balance pass 3 weeks before release. Before that pass, they were two of the weaker classes in the game (Mesmer was by far the weakest.) After that pass, they were two of the strongest classes in the game.

Incidentally, during that same balancing weekend, Elementalist, which was one of the better classes in the game, received several nerfs, and is now one of the worst classes in sPvP.

Simply put: there was a hurried balancing pass shortly before release, and the changes made had no time to be thoroughly tested before release. Mesmers and Thieves were overbuffed, Elementalists were overnerfed.

The balance problems facing the game right now aren’t insurmountable and don’t require major overhauls of anything. These problems are VERY easy to fix. They require minor tweaks to numbers and traits. Balance is actually much closer than people seem to think.

Untouch.2541:

Wait

You think mesmer has the best DoT potential?
Do you even play mesmer?

Engineer and necro WAY outclass mesmer is condition damage.

I’d like to point out that during the beta that mesmer was considered one of the weakest classes in the game.

Barely anything changed in terms on balance, but now they’re considered one of the strongest.
Thieves too.

No, luckily the necros got no significant nerfs from beta to life /chuckle.

I pretty much disagree with everything you said.

First, I disagree. Pretty much every class in this game has high burst potential, each one has to set up that burst differently. Thief, does this set up more traditionally and therefore you claim it’s overpowered. But get caught in the wrong combo by a Warrior, Engineer, Elle and you’re just as dead.

Not entirely true. Every class can have some kind of burst but whether they are efficient and effective is another story. It takes a thief 1-2 sec to do a combo which can one or two shot a swishy or someone with less than 50 percent hp. The same thing cannot be said for an eles since it takes an eles way more time and skills to setup the kill combo. Not to mention the fact that eles combos are way slower and much easier to dodge then that of the thief. Nevermind the fact that thief will out dps an eles any day of the week.

Thief’s defenses tend to rely mostly on its stealths, especially when you’re talking burst glass cannons like the one you’re complaining about. This is severely a learn to play issue in particular. You shut down a thief early, it can’t get the combo it wants off, and melts.

You’re speaking the obvious dude. Everyone knows if you shut down thief early, it cant get combo off. An average joe thief will wait till you least expect and combo you to get the one or two shot kill. No thief is going to pop out of stealth and say “hey im here, let’s fight are you ready?”

Same with Guardian. Yes, they are heavily tanky, but to do so, they have to sacrifice most of everything else to get that way, and is most often reliant on keeping up buffs to survive. So strip off the buffs, lay down the conditions and watch him choke to death.

not true, some guardians can do decent damage and still have high surviablility

Mesmers are reliant on their illusion mechanics. They fuel their shatters, are a huge source of their damage output, and pretty much the core of their own defenses. You shut down the illusions, you shut down the mesmer.

Really? Again mr.obvious. You think people here don’t know that? You can try to shut down illusions all you want, he’ll just spawn more. Not to mention that by the time you finish killing the first set of illusions, your health is pretty much next to nothing.

There needs to be a clearer latter ranking or ‘elo’ system to start weeding out the bads and organized players/groups from one another to start truly making established tactics. Cause right now there’s a pretty big skill disparity between players and that’s causing bad feedback to be given.

Not everyone who agree these classes need to be fixed are bad. People who been denying the fact that these classes are OP are just baddies themselves who chose to play one of these classes as their main and don’t want them to get nerfed.

I am in support against Profession Stacking in tournaments for the time being so players don’t have to worry too much about it. However many of the people who are trying to make feedback are not actually making apt and intelligent critisim. They’re just complaining., and it’s kinda saddening.

Have you been reading some of the concerns people have with these classes and actually been doing a lot of tpvp yourself? I am guessing you’re just speaking out of your kitten. It’s not complaining when it’s the truth.

Again, hopefully Anet realizes that much of this is players ignoring obvious solutions to their problems, refusing to admit “Hey, my build is bad for this trend.” And changing until they find something that clicks well.

Again you’re just speaking out of your kitten with no proof saying everyone build is bad. My guess is that ArenaNet already are working on a fix for these classes…they just haven’t announce it yet

Asmodean.5820:

Untouch.2541:

Wait

You think mesmer has the best DoT potential?
Do you even play mesmer?

Engineer and necro WAY outclass mesmer is condition damage.

I’d like to point out that during the beta that mesmer was considered one of the weakest classes in the game.

Barely anything changed in terms on balance, but now they’re considered one of the strongest.
Thieves too.

No, luckily the necros got no significant nerfs from beta to life /chuckle.

Nah, death shroud was WAY nerfed in beta.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

First, I disagree. Pretty much every class in this game has high burst potential, each one has to set up that burst differently. Thief, does this set up more traditionally and therefore you claim it’s overpowered. But get caught in the wrong combo by a Warrior, Engineer, Elle and you’re just as dead.

You clearly haven’t played every profession. Necromancers have no bursts at all, also Eles have awful damage. I want to talk about Necromancer which is my main profession, their “burst” skills are Ghastly Claws and Life Siphon. Both are 3 seconds channeled skills and can’t make more than 4k damage when fully specced in Power, Precision and Critical Damage. Elementalists are in the same situation.
The burst potential is making high damage in a short period of time and no professions at all can perform on par with a Thief in terms of burst damage. Popping out 15k of damage in half a second and 5-6k per skill (which have almost no casting time) is out of every possible balance and if you don’t admit it, you probably don’t want to.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Thief’s defenses tend to rely mostly on its stealths, especially when you’re talking burst glass cannons like the one you’re complaining about. This is severely a learn to play issue in particular. You shut down a thief early, it can’t get the combo it wants off, and melts.

You are missing that Thief’s combos are spammable, because their skills have no recharge time and costs so low initiative. If they miss the combo, it is a matter of seconds that they vanish in stealth, which is the best defense possible.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Same with Guardian. Yes, they are heavily tanky, but to do so, they have to sacrifice most of everything else to get that way, and is most often reliant on keeping up buffs to survive. So strip off the buffs, lay down the conditions and watch him choke to death.

Nope. I’ve ran a heavy damage guardian and I was tanky while making bunch of damage.
Exactly, how do you strip the buffs without being a mesmer? Don’t try to say “Necromancer”, because you should know that their buff-stripping skills are half broken. Anyways, after you’ve stripped their buffs, it’s a matter of time before they are again up, since buff’s recharge is way too low compared to buff stripping skills.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Mesmers are reliant on their illusion mechanics. They fuel their shatters, are a huge source of their damage output, and pretty much the core of their own defenses. You shut down the illusions, you shut down the mesmer.

Oh, yes, sure. So, you have to shut down the clones/phantasms they continuosly spams while the mesmer can destroy undisturbed your HP bar. Oh, also, if you remotely become a treat, they can either morph you in a cute Moa or stun/daze you till death.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

I am in support against Profession Stacking in tournaments for the time being so players don’t have to worry too much about it. However many of the people who are trying to make feedback are not actually making apt and intelligent critisim. They’re just complaining., and it’s kinda saddening.

There is a lot of intelligent criticisms, lots of alternatives were proposed in the huge amount of topics made about balancing. But obviously pointing out the problem is the first step to resolve it and if none recognize that there is a problem, how can it be solved?

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Again, hopefully Anet realizes that much of this is players ignoring obvious solutions to their problems, refusing to admit “Hey, my build is bad for this trend.” And changing until they find something that clicks well.

You should know that the only fact that trends exist and you have to adjust your build to match opponent players’ trends (and not your team) is a symptom of a bad balancing.

Byrko.6145:

I hear “guardians are over powered because they are too defensive” which I assume doesn’t mean people are getting solo destroyed by one (unless they are bad), but more likely that the guardian was able to hold the player off until more of their team members arrived – at which point said player got nuked. Working as intended. Guardians are extremely susceptible to bleeds and conditions and until more players take the meta game into consideration when choosing their spec (which will likely always feel less rewarding choice in hot join) then there will always be specs that go more commonly un-countered.

So it is balanced that you must build your character and your strategy around defeating guardians?

If a guardian, or any class, has such a 1v1 advantage that you must send 2 players to reliably eliminate and capture the point (regardless of if the Guardian can kill you, as his job is just to keep the point), then you are at a disadvantage everywhere else.

That is fine to have that role in 5v5, but the problem is that it is done much easier and more reliably by a Guardian than any other class. Any other class trying to bunker has a lot less margin for error, yet they do not gain any advantages when they do play at a high skill level.

No single class should be able to dictate your build/strategy.