Guild Wars 2

Line of Warding: This skill now lasts for 5 seconds instead of 8 seconds.
Wrathful Spirit: This Honor trait’s retaliation duration has been decreased from 10 seconds to 3 seconds.

much needed.

Surprised no nerfs for thieves or mesmers.

Much needed? Guardians have almost no condition damage as it is(burning….no) so now our retaliation is screwed. Line of warding makes sense so i’m ok with that but reducing the duration on ret by 70% is unbelievable. If anything, give it 5 or 6 seconds.

^ Just rofl.

Guardians still have more than enough retaliation. Sorry you can’t have it 100% of the time.

Was needed. The Ret was pretty out of hand

Retal shouldn’t even be in the game in the first place.

Passive damage reflect is the worst thing to add to any game.

i would have appreciated a thread to talk about the patch. btw, it is only the beginning i hope. i need some new patch soon

I’m so tired of Thief being able to “steal” mesmer OPness. Nerf both and also elemental, because they can use so many kinds of elements, most only have 2 weapons. Guardian so OP because they look like warrior but OP like mesmer.

I didn’t say keep it at 10 seconds. All i’m saying is the reduction is a bit extreme.

i know right? NERF ALL THE THINGS.

i’m so sick of getting moa morphed by stealthed guardians. this kitten is so broken.

Yah!!!! One time an ele killed me no that can’t be right…..

I agree, the duration was pretty long by why nerf it so hard? Why not do it bit by bit and see how it works? Reducing it by 70% makes it almost useless when compared to Pure of heart.

IMO retal would be best used re-actively to burst. It shouldn’t have anywhere near the uptime it has. It’s a skill that takes any amount of little skill a guardian takes to play, and throws it out the window making it a face roll profession. IMO make it so that retal does a decent chunk of damage back on next hit and let that be it. You could then do a little more with it and it would have to be used with a bit more foresight.

All i’m saying is the nerfs from every patch make it seem like the Profession wasn’t designed as intended. It’s almost impossible to use the tomes without stability, retaliation is what was helping us with the low health tier. Before any of you say, “just use stability before your elite,” tell me what other elite requires the use of another skill to use? This is getting out of hand.

Yeah retal is it is currently is very poorly designed IMO.

It’s like having near 100% uptime PASSIVE 50% healing debuffs (although poison with how easy it is to stack in duration “almost” does this too).

Retaliation needs to either be stronger/scale again or just be a % reflection but having much more limited uptime so there’s thought to using it as opposed to just maintaining 100% uptime for some passive dmg.

retaliation is kitten #8230; I play a guardian as well and used wrathful spirit in half my builds. ( just for credibility) Any skill that skillessly does dmg should be removed the game.
But give us something else. Aegis blocks 3 attacks.? or aegis adds 12 stacks of might upon removal.

“IMO retal would be best used re-actively to burst. It shouldn’t have anywhere near the uptime it has. It’s a skill that takes any amount of little skill a guardian takes to play, and throws it out the window making it a face roll profession. IMO make it so that retal does a decent chunk of damage back on next hit and let that be it. You could then do a little more with it and it would have to be used with a bit more foresight.”
-Diage.6451

Yeah good call that works 2.

Retaliation was over the top. It basically makes the ultimate outlast build since most DPS classes will eventually just kill themselves in their futile efforts to take you down. Was incredibly stupid to have 100% uptime a possibility on it. I’d prefer seeing a bit more skilled usage with it. Thief pops Haste on you? Retaliation! Not this 100% uptime crap.

Arken.3725:

All i’m saying is the nerfs from every patch make it seem like the Profession wasn’t designed as intended. It’s almost impossible to use the tomes without stability, retaliation is what was helping us with the low health tier. Before any of you say, “just use stability before your elite,” tell me what other elite requires the use of another skill to use? This is getting out of hand.

Tell me which other elites have the ability to completely change the tide of a teamfight, 1v1, small skirmish or any other battle? Moa, in 1v1s or small skirmishes, and Timewarp for all of them. No one else’s elites are as powerful as those 3. Moa isn’t even all that great, anyway. Rather have Timewarp.

What do you guys think some of us have been saying? Lower the duration by a little bit not by 70% making it an incredibly useless trait.

Timewarp can easily change the tide of a fight with 10 seconds of quickness. Battle standard which will rez anyone who’s downed will also turn the tide. That’s just to name two.

Edit: and don’t forget, standard takes no cast time while the heal takes 5 seconds and does nothing if you’re downed.

pew i still love my guardian i was worried about how bad the nerf was going to be.

It’s still a large nerf. We’re not even talking about a 50% reduction or less.

I mentioned Time Warp, please read my post. No warriors take Standard due to limited range, and some other problems, but valid point. So, 3 skills total is all we can come up with, and your class has one of ‘em, but you’re complaining about a nerf to it? Of course it got nerfed, it’s one of THREE skills that actually have a battlefield-wide effect. You can also use that little knockback dome to cast it in peace.

And still you can have huge uptime on retaliation on a Guardian.. I know cause I play one regularly. Seriously, the change is not that bad.

Hammer gives you AoE retaliation with a self combo, you still have Stand Your Ground. The minor 15pt in Virtues 3s of Retaliation when using virtues, greatsword symbol. There are so many sources of retaliation in the Guardian’s arsenal. Notice even though I did not bring up the Signet (most won’t run it in tPvP) but it’s still ample all throughout.

If you think having near 100% or pretty much 100% uptime on retaliation was going to stay, I don’t know what to say.

I never said having it up 100% of the time was my objective. All I was saying is lowering it by such a large amount seems unnecessary. And this is especially true since they nerfed the retaliation duration buff from 50% to 25% so now you go from 3 to 3.75 seconds. It’s such a waste of a trait that it’s laughable.

There are still ways to maintain 100% uptime of Retaliation on Guardians, people are blowing this way out of proportion.

Daays.4317:

Retal shouldn’t even be in the game in the first place.

Passive damage reflect is the worst thing to add to any game.

Ill say i play a guardian and i also think Retal lasted to long, because when i think of confusion (same thing as retal"almost" ) it does not last close to as long as retal can but should they be taken out of the game na, retal is no more Stronger than condition damage that will passively deal damage for X time….

and like retal needs power to scale well, conditon need c-damage to scale well the only problem with retal is its very easy to keep up 100% of the time with very little investment.

wrathful spirit had a bug which made it random duration could make it last as long as 1 min yesterday i got more than 30 seconds once.
but in 3 seconds its not much you can do it will activate once per 40 seconds then maby it help a bit against pistolwhip or crossfire that’s it i personally wouldn’t use it the way its now.

I understand the need for a nerf of this trait, 10 seconds is too long. But 3 seconds isn’t enough to warrant the choice of utilizing this trait. It’s been stated before, bunkers are meant to repel and hold the line as long as possible. Maybe change it to give protection instead since Guardians are supposed to be defensive oriented.

They never intended retal to have 100% uptime or anything close to it. Huge retal uptime + bunker builds are hard counters to burst damage builds. They nerfed it as hard as they did because they never wanted it to be up more than ~15% of the time.

Retal needed a nerf? yes. Nerfd from 10 seconds to 3?? FCUK NO!

Every QQer of retal is happy as fcuk and walking aroung with a big kitten kitten feeling like they own the world because some Anet mngr believed your Masive amount of QQing and then changed a vital key for defensive guardians.

from 10 to 5 seconds would have been harsh but ok. from 10 to 7 seconds would have been more along the lines of “toning down” a skill and see where it goes. 10 to 3 seconds is nothing more than a brain fart and a clear win for the QQers and thus actually conveing the message that hey.. if you dont like a skill then Bicth about it as much as you can and if the QQing goes viral then we will do as you say. So what is next?? QQ about spirit weapons being invincible? perhaps to short cd on kd?

You as a comunity that did not like a certain skill. (in this case Retal) are on your right to QQ as much as you want. The problem is when Devs throw out the window their initial intentions and hours upon hours of research like tome of wrath having stability and say ok lets listen to this guys (who have clearly no idea wtf they are talking about but just to shut em up)

Clearly kittening about Retal guardians is the new black but only those who roll guardians can understand why is not as op as you think. HOWEVER the Devs SHOULD know this.

1st

in order for aproper retal build to be as vital as it was you needed to spec 30 points on virtues. 30 points on honors and 10 valor. why?? for duration and condition removal. max power to escalate retal and toughness to allow for retal to have the time to work.

2nd because of that you had ABSOLUTELY no precition, no crit dmg, no burst. how ever that was fine because you 900dmg+400dmg(retal) was decent dmg. wasnt a 5~10k crit dmg but good enough to be effective over a 30~45second fight.

congrats dough.. this is the first time that I see a comunity QQ and the Devs eat it right up.
Now because of this I already see topics forming up to pretty much dictate the next patch nerf.

I wish this was blizzard they would have given you all a nice paragraph of “you dont know siht so sftu”
/facepalm

Uh that isn’t your only source of retaliation. Retaliation is just a bad concept. It should be very short duration and should reflect back 100% of the damage done for that very short duration. Not be a long term passive reflect that takes no thought on anyone’s part.

valdamus.6289

congrats dough.. this is the first time that I see a comunity QQ and the Devs eat it right up.
Now because of this I already see topics forming up to pretty much dictate the next patch nerf.

rofl. You’re adorable.

valdamus.6289

I wish this was blizzard they would have given you all a nice paragraph of “you dont know siht so sftu”

Oh, you wanted a quote from a dev on the subject? Cool:

Jon Peters
Bunker guardian has to much retal period. Obviously. Frankly, too much prot also. But that is not the heart of the matter. The core problem is retal. Because with it, bunker builds eliminate spike builds from the meta game, which in turn makes bunker builds OP. So the counter to them is being countered by them. AKA balance problem. Defensive builds are important, they help establish strategies. But they are also determining the entire meta right now.

In summation: “you dont know siht so sftu”

Again, I disagree with this idea the burst damage is the counter to bunker, (It’s the other way around, you’re supposed to have the skill to counter burst damage, but lose in drawn out fights where you’re focused.) but some of his statments there are correct.

Your defintion makes little sense. A bunker is something you hunker down in to weather out a prolonged attack. Not a one use shield.

The misuse of the term isn’t my folly. It’s people placing down a bad title for a role.

The concept is to hold a point against enemies long enough for allies to come in. If burst damage counters this, the role becomes useless. Atrition damage allows the role to be viable but counterable.

Right now, as the meta exists, burst damage counters sustained damage builds. And more durable/defensive builds counter burst damage by blocking the burst and countering it.

The issue is the condition/AoE damage that’s supposed to weather these tanks down are not sucessfully doing so. Enabeling Burst Damage to counter them enables Burst Damage to counter all three role types (Burst counters itself as well) and it becomes a game of ‘who can catch who off guard for a split second’.

That’s not a viable dynamic.

Right now, Jon’s statments are in exact opposite of what should happen to make a healthy s/tPvp, and in stark contrast to any eSport game. (You don’t burst a tanky, they’ll survive or even if they don’t, the enemy team will collapse upon you unless your target was caught out of position/in CC.)

If they’re going to try to turn tPvP into an eSport, they’re going to have to start paying attention to the dynamics of eSports.

A bunker’s role is to stay alive against one or more opponents long enough for his teammates to arrive, thereby preventing the point from being taken.

If the only way to take a point from a bunker build is to slowly whittle it down with condition damage, then he’s fulfilling his aforementioned role perfectly and is not, in fact, being countered at all.

so….
I cant stop a rogue spamming 1111111222 or even 2222222222222 in my heal spec cuz they say
“DOOD we ment to keel healerz”
and i cant stop them in my damage spec because “DOOD we ment to kill deepz”
and now your telling me I cant even give up 4 slots and take away all offense to be a retaliation tank against them?

key factore to balance ANY pvp game.

fix the blantant op stuff first which is OFFENSE. nobody in no pvp game ever likes to be killed fast and easy.
after that fix the defense and adjust healing and debuffs of the sort.
NEVER… EVER fix the defense before you fix the offense.
guess they didnt learn the lesson from warhammer… and rift…. and daoc….

if bunker has everything on CD a glass cannon should blow them up. Goes both ways, if glass cannon has no offensive CDs up they are just a sitting duck.

Guardians have almost no condition damage as it is(burning….no) so now our retaliation is screwed.

This argument would make sense if retaliation scaled off condition damage, but it is based off power. You had guardians going full power damage build with retaliation that lasted the whole fight, hitting back for 230. Which basically made is next to impossible not to kill yourself with thief unload or engineer pistol Poison Darts, since you took just as much damage as you’ve dealt.

Arken.3725:

What do you guys think some of us have been saying? Lower the duration by a little bit not by 70% making it an incredibly useless trait.

Right, because now the guardian has a useless trait with 3 sec retaliation, while all the other classes inflict 10 sec retaliation easily.

and now your telling me I cant even give up 4 slots and take away all offense to be a retaliation tank against them

You didn’t need to give up much more than one trait slot to do a lot of retal damage.