Guild Wars 2 Competitive Game Analysis

Guild Wars 2 Competitive Game Analysis

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Posted by: Zero.8145

Zero.8145

My arguments over Guild Wars 2 as a competitive game
It is evident that solely PvP based games draw in more sponsors and fans than any combination of mixed PvE/PvP game. If you look at the biggest games in the market right now, Starcraft 2 draws hundred of thousands of views and players for the exact same game format. the MOBA format is also another prime example. If you were to examine any successful game, they would share common traits.

Fun/Replayability


The keyword is interesting. Guild Wars 2’s conquest for example does not capture this basic idea. According to Arena Net, capture points were a way to drive interaction between players; yet the idea behind points is flawed. By creating the objective of holding a point, it has created a dynamic which they encountered in their previous game’s Hall of Heroes. For whatever reason the game has been decided, whether intentional or not, to promote the use of holding/surviving classes as opposed to a balanced character. This is a fine idea when implemented in other forms/games. The problem with Guild Wars 2 is that there is no drawback for creating a bunker build; there must be a negative value to being more and more defensive. For example, In Starcraft 2, if one is to turtle(play very defensive), they give up map control which is paramount to controlling the flow of battle. it allows the opponent to set up new bases as well as create superior army positioning which results in winning the game. GW2 on the other hand, has points which only promote keeping them captured; if nobody is contesting the point you will be gaining more points. If two people are contesting the point, but you cannot die, you will be gaining more points as well. If they have the point, there are ways to neutralize the point as a bunker via knockbacks and fear. But nowhere in being a bunker is there any drawback. They provide a load of support and CAN do damage (although not all the time). This is a fundamental flaw in the game format, not the game design itself. There must be tradeoffs in the game format itself in order for there to be variation between builds/playstyles.

Playstyles and Adaptation


Another key aspect of creating a successful PvP game is the ability to create dynamic playstyles that border both spectrums of completely aggressive to completely defensive to everything in between. Now, while both extremas are viable, they cannot be viable 100% of the time. Because skewing a playstyle so drastically in one direction SHOULD sacrifice other aspects of your gameplay (HP, Money, Energy, Armor, Damage, etc…), these should only be viable as a part of a larger strategy within multiple games/series between teams/players. Times in which you can catch your opponent off guard. Strategies must have an inherent risk if you are to skew towards the extremes.
This is partially what creates the excitement in PvP games; the lack of knowledge in what your opponent is going to do, but more so the adaptation to every style. Any highly competitive head to head sport can verify this; martial arts is a prime example. Both players have no idea who their opponent is as they enter a ring to compete with each other. They could be extremely aggressive, extremely passive, or anywhere inbetween. It is the ability to overcome every style of fighter that is the thrill. How you can manipulate the fight in order to make it beneficial for yourself, controlling the tempo of a match and so on. The same principles can be applied into competitive PvP.
While the Guild Wars 2 system does promote adaptation, the game format is not inherently promoting of all playstyles. Furthermore, analyzing capture points can show that it is more beneficial to play towards the extremes rather than towards a balance. Glass cannons have the ability to capture points faster by killing opponents faster, which in turn allows the bunker builds to defend it all day. This is opposed to a balanced build going up against a bunker, which he will never kill 1v1 (or 2v1 depending on the 2nd character with him). Just the same, a glass cannon may or may not be able to kill the balanced player (depending on class/utility vs glass cannon class). When/if they are able to, they die extremely fast due to not specializing in any field. Even if the matchup ended up being 2v1 (2 balanced vs 1 bunker) where the bunker eventually dies, it would hold out long enough to create an advantage. Also, the two balanced characters do not have the ability to hold out in order to gain that advantage back.

Guild Wars 2 Competitive Game Analysis

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Posted by: Zero.8145

Zero.8145

Dying and Game Changing plays


Penalties for dying must be one of the most important implementations into competitive play, more so playstyles must had the ability to revolve around it as a sub-objective. MOBA’s have increasingly longer respawn timers throughout the game, and are impactful throughout the entire game. In the beginning, if you die, you lose out on much needed experience. If you die in the mid game, you are giving up valuable money both from yourself and to the other team. Endgame it is impacting your teams ability to fight the other. In Starcraft, losing units needlessly is wasting resources, and Starcraft is a game of managing resources. Guild Wars 1 death not only removes your presence from the team fight, it forced skill slots to be used for ressing, and also created death penalty. If one was to run out of res sigs, respawn would be every two minutes. This is the definition of penalties for dying. There must be game changing mechanics with the death of a player; the death must allow for a team to capitalize on an opportunity. Dead monks = less healing. Dead Midline = less support/interrupts on your midline/frontline. Dead frontline = less stress on their backline. Currently in GuildWars 2, deaths are meaningless in comparison to holding a point/keeping a point neutralized. Holding points should be a viable strategy, but it should not overshadow other strategies that revolve around killing your opponent as a means to victory. Respawn timers are currently too short in order to be impactful due to the presence of bunkers being able to hold out for 30 seconds to a minute.
The game must give the opponent a viable way to win even in the most extreme of circumstances. It is what drives fans to watch a game through its entirety. Any competitive event or game never has a point where the player cannot make some sort of comeback (even if it relies on the opponent making a mistake); It is a fundamental draw to competition. It is the factor which triggers the mind to find a strategy that will allow us to get out of a situation and conversely keeps others from becoming lazy and giving up an insurmountable lead. Guild Wars allowed you to gank the guild lord at anytime (given you kill NPCs) as well as being able to fight with your NPCs for additional DPS. Starcraft has hidden expansions, micro, and counter attacking. MOBA’s allow you to fight by towers in the same way guild wars did with its NPCs. Guild Wars 2 on the other hand does not have any strategies separate from typical gameplay that would result in a come from behind victory. There is triple capping points, but at some point in the match, all a team has to do is hold one point in order to win, thus creating as predetermined victor. It is the fact that the game is over before it is actually over that hurts the ability of Guild Wars 2 to be entertaining 100% of the time. It is not the same as being able to gank. Full team wiping would still not result in a game changing play due to the lack of a penalty for dying. In essence, there is a timer in GW2, that timer being 500 points. "Imagine basketball with no shot clock. A team could be up by a few points which would allow them to hold the ball indefinitely. However, even in that case, the other team could foul to force free throws and possession, which is more than GW2 has in terms of options.

(edited by Zero.8145)

Guild Wars 2 Competitive Game Analysis

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Zero.8145

MMR and Casuals

This topic has been beat into the ground like a dead horse. But I choose to speak about it anyways.


The goal of a competitive game is to breed players that push the limits past what the developers envisioned; in order to do this, there must be a system in place that promotes and rewards progression. This is an area where Guild Wars 2 is lacking (‘until its ready’). Not only do players need to be able to play against those of the same caliber, there must be a visual progression that signifies improvement. Leagues and ladders are a great way to do this, not gear. Players should not have to sync tournaments in order to have enjoyable games. Players should not feel the lack of progression because of a failed system. They also should feel rewarded for winning. Gaining ranks is a much better reward and feeling of satisfaction than getting a new sword. Being able to defeat opponents you KNOW are better than you is paramount.

It is not only important for players, but for teams as a whole. In the current environment, players wish to become part of larger gaming teams, hopefully to become sponsored. In order to do so, they must be able to supply these sponsors with exposure, which then pinpoints the root of the problem. How are players supposed to give exposure without any formal way to represent their own team besides word of mouth? I’m sure this will be fixed eventually, but it only contributes to the list of ongoing problems plaguing Guild Wars 2’s PvP system.

Now as far as the discussion of casuals vs professionals goes, there must be a clear distinction between the abilities of one vs the other. The skill gap must be apparent to the extent that it is noticeable within an observer’s view. While this is important, one must also realize that nobody likes to get beat into the ground every match (which currently happens in tPvP without an MMR). Casuals want to feel like part of the community, not separate from what professional players are doing. They need to be able to attempt to mimic what those of high skill are capable of in order casuals to feel as if they have a significant goal to achieve. This goes back to the discussion of rewarding players for improvement. Professionals will always have the intuitive sense over casuals, but in terms of physical abilities, they should be able to achieve those with practice. Currently the ‘professional’ scene is in tPvP, that being 5v5’s. Arena Net states that tPvP are for the more hardcore players where spvp is more relaxed, yet spvp does not support the infrastructure being set up by Arena Net due to the fact that they are not the same format (5v5 for tPvP and 8v8 for sPvP). Let me restate again, that casuals need to play the same game format as professionals so they can develop the understanding and complexities inherent in 5v5. I.e. movement is much more important in 5v5 due to the lack of players being in different locations throughout the map. In 8v8, there are an extra 3 people to bounce around, making it more chaotic/less organized, and more about freestyling rather than strategy. Casuals need to understand the development of strategies and reactions even if they are of the most basic level in order for the viewership to rise.

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Zero.8145

Grouping and Easy to Find Games Part 1


If one were to examine and FPS, RTS, or MOBA, it is apparent that playing the game is relatively simple. In RTS, it is as simple as hitting a button for a match. Very simple for any player to begin playing the game as it does not require additional players in order to get started. FPS is a second example moving closer to a full team environment. Casuals can play the games by themselves joining open servers. They develop the mechanics necessary in order to play at a higher level and join a team in order to play in a league. Strategy is then learned and skills improve. MOBA’s are a bit of a different story, but it is still possible to play by yourself. Because all of the heroes are individualized, pugging is fairly viable for casuals, but it is often more beneficial to pair up with teammates creating a synergy between characters.
This was a problem within Guild Wars 1. The main PvP system, that being Tombs(Halls/Heroes Ascent) and GvG, required full 8 man teams. Inside of this system were inherent barriers via elitism. If we examine Tombs from the beginning, the model worked perfectly because all people were on the same level of skill. Each map brought new challenges and the opponents became harder and harder as the game progressed. As time moved on, elitism grew as those with experience knew what it took in order to advance, and in making rank restricted groups, created an environment that was not enjoyable for new players. In the case of GvG, the barrier to entry was being inside of an 8 man guild. Guests were a viable, but not permanent solution for lower manned teams, but are not conducive to improving as a guild. The choice to allow heroes and henchmen into competitive play was completely inappropriate in terms of improving a competitive game. Towards the mid and latter part of the game’s life, it became more and more difficult to get your name out. Guilds did not want players with no experience, thus players needed a form of gameplay in which to gain said experience. There were two options. First, creating a new guild with less skilled players and hope they all stick around until they actually started winning (which takes quite a while for those who never played competitive GvG). Second, to play Tombs. But by this time, Tombs was already plagued with rank restricted groups which turned off new players from competitive play altogether. For all intents and purposes, random arenas (random 4v4 teams) and team arena (premade 4v4 teams) were not competitive and did not create any viable experience for players.
On top of all of this were other human factors such as personality differences, racism (yes it still exists), and sexism. There were even posts that went as far as having a wall of text explaining why no girls were allowed in a guild.
Guild Wars 2 attempted to fix this problem of casuals not being able to get into the game, but in doing so simplified the game to a level where it currently it is not deep enough for hardcore players (based on numerous discussions with past top level Guild Wars 1 players). For example, the biggest change was their reduction in skills from Guild Wars 1. Their reason in doing so was due to the vast combinations of skills that were unbalanceable (there were ways to get around balance so much to the degree where developers needed to nerf skills out of the game). At the same time they took out one of the best aspects to competitive play, which was the dual professions (mind you this is from a player’s/deckbuilder’s perspective, not a developer and balancing perspective). This is where I believe the developers became misguided. There is another option they could have went with instead of removing both which would be removing dual professions and keeping the number of skills. In doing so, lets take removing dual professions, for example. They could still create the plethora of skills available per profession in Guild Wars 1 and keep professions flexible while maintaining balance. Most of the imbalance came from cross profession skill combinations (Incantation + High energy skills, glyphs+Long recharges, etc…) due to professions inherent roles in the game. Ele’s with high damage spells + Mesmers with energy management/cooldown management. This brings me to my second point.

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Zero.8145

Grouping and Easy to Find Games Part 2


Energy and energy management was and still is a wonderfully complex system that forces players to weigh cost to benefits or specific skills. The ability to deny energy, or prevent the denial of energy added an even deeper understanding of ones own energy bar. Not only did Guild Wars 1 integrate this concept, it also inherently integrated something which Guild Wars 2 was based on: Visual combat. Despite what they say, Guild Wars 1 was a very visual game. You did not want to step into giant wells, you knew what wards looked like. Its the same concept as seeing a firewall in Guild Wars 2. This ‘visual game’ argument is flawed in the reason that they present the same information as they did in Guild Wars 1, there are just more skills that are environmentally visible rather than single targeted. Players still need to understand which each skill looks like and its effects. Is it my teammates or is it the opponents? What happens when I step into it? It is also another simplified version of what Guild Wars 1 visual system was engineered to do. Weapon swaps were important in both games, yet Guild Wars 2 presents it for a utility to use skills in order to adapt, whereas Guild Wars 1 presented it as a utility to prevent damage and denial. It was also another aspect that separated casuals from skilled players and the ability to recognize what each of the 4 weapon switches did was key. Did the monk go into his high energy set? These were complex issues that were said to prevent casuals from getting into the game. But it was more so the lack of implementing more information into the observer mode. Energy bars should be as visual on the observer mode as it is as the person playing the character.
I could go on about different aspects of the gameplay, but most people will just believe its nostalgia effect and think nothing of it.

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Zero.8145

How can Guild Wars 1 gameplay be implemented into a single game?

First of all, developers need to realize having one game mode is not a bad thing, so long as the game format has the ability to hold highly competitive gameplay. In this case, many people would say the pinnacle of competitive gameplay would be GvG. Based on the arguments of Arena Net there are some issues that need to be addressed.

Balance


This would have to be one of the most difficult areas that would need to be worked on. First of all, all skills would need to be worked from the ground up, in a solely competitive mindset. Many skills in Guild Wars 1 were space fillers, this is something we want to avoid.

In the beginning process of designing skills they would be focused on specific roles of each class and subroles within each. Each physical class needs to be able to have DPS, Conditions, or some way to create pressure (this can be done with interrupts, knocks, energy denial, etc…). There should be a skills that promote different levels of the spectrum of combinations between DPS conditions and other pressure.
More importantly it is the spell casters that are the hardest to balance; with spell casters the problem comes in that they essentially can do anything a developer wants and are not bound to physical restrictions. Thus the effects of each skill must be chosen as to complement eachother without destroying the integrity of each class. In order to do so, each class needs to be defined a specific role and think about the implications of cross class combinations. I.e. take a mesmer as a control class in combination with a necromancer. They compliment eachother well due to the fact that necros have supplimentary physical controls, hexes, and debuffs. It provides a support for the overall goal of a mesmer. On the other hand, allowing a mesmer to have a skill that gives 150% energy gain, or glyphs that provide instant cooldowns, is borderline unacceptable. There needs to be controllable factors in which developers can nerf and buff skills. Damage, duration, cooldown, energy. These are things that I believe should not be touched. But they also should not be removed from the game. At the same time, there needs to be ways for players to increase/reduce damage (buffs/debuffs), regain energy(attack hitting, individual spells not paired with others), Create longer cooldowns for opponents to cause pressure(i.e. diversion), and being able to extend effects (spells that makes conditions last longer/hex last longer —> They must also be able to be removed).

At this point you may ask, “But what about hex/condition stacking!?!? You can’t possibly have enough removal for all of them.” To this I reply, that is the job of the midline, or the control classes. Backlines/Monks will crumble without support and interrupts of key skills, and this is how it should be. The main highlight of competitive Guild Wars 1 was coordination between what each character’s role is at what time and if the backline can support the midline becoming offensive in order to gain momentum/kills.

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Zero.8145

Finding a Group and Elitism


Elitism rears its head once again. How can a developer create such a team driven game without elitism. The answer is not to eliminate elitism, rather it should be embraced as a standard for the top players to improve their skills and your game. Thus the solution comes with the UI and mechanics of lobbying itself.
Let there be no instance for players to run around and spam LFG LFG LFG until they find a group. Rather, have a system, almost similar to how IRC is laid out with multiple tabs on the side. One tab would be Looking for Player tab which allows individuals to host invites for teams. Within each of these party leaders, they define the build their team plays and players can view the builds decide whether they can or can’t play the skill bar, and join the group.
Now comes the second point of elitism: experience. How can we keep elitism while keeping around team format. Simple, there must be a system in place (MMR cough cough) that separates the players via different levels of skills. This would allow players of the same caliber to meet with each other and progress together. This not only will create more teams that play together more often, but it will also improve the teams that decide to play together throughout their progression. Players need to have personal experience as well as guild experience where guilds are able to be created after a certain level. They do not have to limit new players from playing in a guild. Rather, it would promote people playing together and meeting new players in order to create a closer community once they progress up the ranks.

Rewards and Money


Simple. Player leader board/ranking. Guild leaderboard/ranking. Gear.
Take LoL method of buying gear that have visual effects in order to barbie up your character. It does not prevent professionals from becoming gear based battles, and gives the casuals something fun to do.

Thats pretty much it for my wall of text.

Oh yes, and for good ol’ times,
“move zig”

(edited by Zero.8145)

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Posted by: Blazer Hellsing.9184

Blazer Hellsing.9184

I don’t agree, GW2 is very close to E-sport, is fun and all it needs are:

1. Remove raid on the capricorn.
2. Add real RATING based on win/loss as a team and add rated matchmaking system.
3. Make sPvP hot jon from 8v8 to 5v5 so people actually experience the real sPvP instead of zergfest.

Main: Thief
Alts: Warrior, Necromancer, Mesmer, Elementalist (bunker)

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Posted by: Zero.8145

Zero.8145

I don’t agree, GW2 is very close to E-sport, is fun and all it needs are:

1. Remove raid on the capricorn.
2. Add real RATING based on win/loss as a team and add rated matchmaking system.
3. Make sPvP hot jon from 8v8 to 5v5 so people actually experience the real sPvP instead of zergfest.

Read all of it first. I address #2 and #3. Capricorn everybody already knows is a horrible horrible map.

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Posted by: ehtom.5047

ehtom.5047

Why claim to talk about something abstract, then in your first paragraph say you want to nerf bunkers? (thief in disguise?)

As for MMR, I agree entirely. The game needs this and the ability to find players at your level via hotjoin would result in tons more people playing tpvp.

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Posted by: Zero.8145

Zero.8145

Why claim to talk about something abstract, then in your first paragraph say you want to nerf bunkers? (thief in disguise?)

As for MMR, I agree entirely. The game needs this and the ability to find players at your level via hotjoin would result in tons more people playing tpvp.

I play a bunker myself. If not a bunker, condi ranger/engi depending on the team build. Never touched a thief in my life. And it still creates a boring/stale gameplay mechanic

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Posted by: ehtom.5047

ehtom.5047

It is 100% necessary to make it worth it to actually take a point though. If two people could just rock up and gib the bunker instantly there would be no point investing in a teamfight to take the point, the game would degenerate into small groups roaming and chain taking points without trying to defend them. This would be very silly.

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Posted by: Zero.8145

Zero.8145

It is 100% necessary to make it worth it to actually take a point though. If two people could just rock up and gib the bunker instantly there would be no point investing in a teamfight to take the point, the game would degenerate into small groups roaming and chain taking points without trying to defend them. This would be very silly.

Like I stated, it is a problem with the format of the game, not the game mechanics itself. Because of the use of points, it promotes these bunker build which creates stale gameplay since all they do is sit on a point. Its the game format that makes it necessary to have bunkers. Builds outside of the extremes (max dps or max bunker) should be a viable option and currently it is not quite at that point since balanced specs take forever to kill a bunker camping a node.

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Posted by: Ventari.8257

Ventari.8257

ok my 2 cents. bunkers arent that op. they can and will die, also they do take skill to play well. if a team has a bunker, then you can strategize around it, its easy be more mobile, take the objectives (creatures, treb, lord) these are all ways to “counter” the bunker meta. The problem is people just arent doing it.

I agree that something needs to be done about spawning, i think that the timer should be 30 secs not 20, i also think that it is plausible for kills to be worth more points.

Also to state that a full wipe doesnt matter is simply ignorant. because any good team will make sure they timer stomp them, and they will get 25 points, and they will be able to cap at least one point, sounds like a game changer 2 me.

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Posted by: alcopaul.2156

alcopaul.2156

guildwars 1 gameplay cant be implemented because there is no more backline frontline whatever lines. unless you try to set an unspoken standard of “guise lets not cap the points and lets fight head on 5v5.” in that scenario, you might find these lines again

and nobodys gonna do that because its dumb

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Posted by: Pray.9751

Pray.9751

I don’t agree, GW2 is very close to E-sport, is fun and all it needs are:

1. Remove raid on the capricorn.
2. Add real RATING based on win/loss as a team and add rated matchmaking system.
3. Make sPvP hot jon from 8v8 to 5v5 so people actually experience the real sPvP instead of zergfest.

look at the viewer count on twitch & say that again

the whole thing is actually pretty easy, the teams/players go where the money is
that means paid competitions & high viewership on streaming sites

now the thing is you can not even as much as create a custom game in GW2, so GW2 is actually farther from being an e-sport than pokemon stadium

literally the online thing that is e-sport about GW2 is that it’s an online game. period.

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Posted by: Ksp.5943

Ksp.5943

The only thing I would change about the Conquest style is to pick up what WoW did in their original Conquest maps – a channeled flag turn that is interrupted upon attack. This forces a teamfight on the node, but one that isn’t based upon knockbacks and stabilities, which are (specifically Guardian) bunkers strong points in a small skirmish.

Past that, the only thing I really don’t like about the game is that abilities are too fire and forget. A large majority are AoE and are just to be used at a specific moment, rather than for a specific purpose or person.

There’s no micromanagement to where your skills are going for the most part. For instance, on my ele, do I have a lot of condi’s? → water attunment, toss abilties as needed. Am I about to take more dmg? → earth. no? → fire. It’s very basic situational decisions rather than having to actually choose what abilities are going where and on what target.

Sarcasm – because I’m too far away to strangle you.

Ksp [Win]

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Posted by: Zero.8145

Zero.8145

The only thing I would change about the Conquest style is to pick up what WoW did in their original Conquest maps – a channeled flag turn that is interrupted upon attack. This forces a teamfight on the node, but one that isn’t based upon knockbacks and stabilities, which are (specifically Guardian) bunkers strong points in a small skirmish.

Past that, the only thing I really don’t like about the game is that abilities are too fire and forget. A large majority are AoE and are just to be used at a specific moment, rather than for a specific purpose or person.

There’s no micromanagement to where your skills are going for the most part. For instance, on my ele, do I have a lot of condi’s? -> water attunment, toss abilties as needed. Am I about to take more dmg? -> earth. no? -> fire. It’s very basic situational decisions rather than having to actually choose what abilities are going where and on what target.

Sounds like what you are getting is that there is a lack of depth within the game itself. It is very one dimensional

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Posted by: Diage.6451

Diage.6451

@alcopaul
You know, it is possible. Step into the world of abstractions for a second. Consider everything a monk did for you in GW1. There were two monks, the red bar and the prot. The prot’s job was to watch the field and preprot damage and spikes. Essentially minimize the total damage being dispensed. The red bar’s job was to literally watch the red bars. He simply had to react quickly to fast changes in hp and follow whoever their spike caller was around and infuse spikes.

So now I claim I dismantle the redbar. Take his abilities of managing the health and spread it to the tasks of individual players. Mitigation then gets added in. Ideally, having a support would be viable in a 5v5. His job would essentially be what the prot monk did in GW1. Watch the field and react accordingly to minimize the damage throughout the team. He would have the ability to heal a bit tied into the passive abilities. This brings me to something I would like to argue with Zero about, attrition factors.

I would argue that the energy bar is something that actually complicates the game without bringing a lot to the table. It adds a different set of challenges that one must consider, but proper skill usage and timing can be manage in other ways which are less confusing, i.e. cooldown orientation. The point here is that with the removal of energy, there has to be some factor that starts to weigh on you based on who is doing better in a fight. In gw1, we had energy. The better team had more energy. GW2 has potential to make the health bar that factor. Now, that seems odd, but if a game successfully pulled this concept off, it would be revolutionary. GW2 had that potential to do so. Give a higher net health pool, considerable cooldowns on your self heal, minute passive healing and strong damage mitigation. Then, ideally your heals shouldn’t heal you to full unless you sacrifice a skill with a significant cool down. As time wears on, it will amount to your better usage of your cooldowns over you opponent. Improper usage will cause pressure to start to build throughout your team. The great thing is that this pressure is extremely visible. It would still maintain the great dynamics of pulling back to relieve pressure, pushing hard to risk out pressuring your opponent and all the great things we loved and enjoyed from GW1.

Sure, I would be perfectly happy with an energy mechanic, I think it works well. But if someone did pull off the type of gameplay I mentioned above, it would be quite an accomplishment. As I have mentioned many times, GW2 had and actually still has the potential to do this.

This brings me back to alcopaul. The removal of the redbar and a change in dynamics of how you perceive pressure reduces the need for monks. It creates a game mode that would champion control and damage with slight support and prevent support from becoming excessively overpowered.

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Posted by: jazx.7319

jazx.7319

I hope A.Net Really sees this and really implement more game styles and MMR

And i really love tdm playstyle in Rift / Wow/ and much other games

Please let the players choose the game modes they want

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Posted by: Karnage.3156

Karnage.3156

One thing that I personally think would be intresting to implement and I have thought about this in the past few games as well is to implement MOBA style pvp into a mmorpg setting. Such as going through the towers to destroy a main objective.

The positives of this stlye of gameplay are that it would allow for multiple builds and multiple roles and create a very new and intresting style of gameplay.

The Negatives are that it could go horribly wrong due to the inherint diffrences in traditional mmorpg pvp and moba pvp.

All in all it is just an intresting idea to be thrown around for a competative game mode that allows for diversity in character builds and a way to apply pressure to the other team, which this game lacks very much at the moment. Yes, you can capture points to put points on the board but as the OP stated that gets stagnent and easy to predict the winner. This also eliminates the problems of the bunker sure people could go play a bunker still and be effective and useful but would not break the game with their effectiveness.

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Posted by: Zero.8145

Zero.8145

One thing that I personally think would be intresting to implement and I have thought about this in the past few games as well is to implement MOBA style pvp into a mmorpg setting. Such as going through the towers to destroy a main objective.

Im pretty sure MOBA will never happen because Arena Net doesnt want hour long games. I’ve thought about that format myself, but it just simulates a longer GvG in essence, due to there being 3 lanes and towers rather than NPC’s and Guild Lord.

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Posted by: uncop.5073

uncop.5073

This was great reading in many respects. Decisions in GW2 matches lack weight and so you often can’t punish a team for their mistakes hard enough to win a losing fight. No overextending so badly that it gets your guild lord killed. There’s little prioritizing targets except for ‘who goes down the easiest’, whereas in GW1 there were many. Get the warrior while he’s frenzying, get the ele so you have a shot at the monks, get the monk so they lose their heal engine, get that guy with 45% DP.

Tournaments definitely need a real death penalty system that creates target prioritization and real situational advantages. The situational advantages need to be big enough to actually turn the game around, and in the cap point format it’s really hard to do except by simply having more people on the field so you can realistically hold 3 points.

Another thing is that defensive builds actually increase team mobility in this game. By having players that can hold of 2-3 people for a reasonable amount of time you GAIN map control as opposed to being able to hold one point 100% but having trouble getting more, which it would mean in a saner balance system. There was a similar skew (for different reasons) in GW1 GvG and no amount of nerfing defense and buffing offense could help, it only made the game slower by forcing teams to use more and more defensive characters in their teambuilds.

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Posted by: Proven.2854

Proven.2854

@Diage: what you’re saying is what I’m also hoping to come from GW2. I came from a game that has a very similar setup in com games, with group health and pressure being the major mechanics. Team Fortress 2. They did it with an FPS mindset, and I’d prefer an action/adventure game model, which is why my hopes are in GW2.

Call me Smith.

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Posted by: ComeAndSee.1356

ComeAndSee.1356

I don’t like sPvP in this game (I played maybe 400 hours on SWTOR Warzones) because of the lack of a DR system. It’s stupid being constantly being knocked down, dazed, stunned, etc. and you can’t do anything about it. It’s bad enough in PvE being knocked around from 100% to 0% and praying that maybe you’ll have a chance to get back up.

Sha Nari – 80 Guardian (http://bit.ly/12RNvtK)
Lorella Windrunner – 80 Thief
Shayera Nightfall – 80 Mesmer

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Posted by: Zero.8145

Zero.8145

It’s stupid being constantly being knocked down, dazed, stunned, etc. and you can’t do anything about it.

You do realize there are skills that negate all of these right? There are also traits that help too. I.E. stealth when CC’ed type skills.

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Posted by: Mhur.2904

Mhur.2904

Well explained. I couldn’t agree more with everything you said. Great analysis by the way.

(edited by Mhur.2904)

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Posted by: ryston.7640

ryston.7640

Ahah! I have only read the tip of the OP but i can already see where he went wrong: he thinks Star Craft is a pinnacle of esport just because it god kitten should be. What he doesnt realize is that League of Legends is the new big esport. Because: babies.

His theory of how to make guildwars 2 succede should include imbedding the stream into the client, so people playing pve count as spectators of a pvp match.

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Posted by: ryston.7640

ryston.7640

Finished. Agree with all op, hope anet considers it

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Posted by: felivear.1536

felivear.1536

Very well written. Sounds like you have really thought this out and articulated it well. DEVs will read this. Hopefully they take some of it to heart.

feLIVEar: Your resident forum king.

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Posted by: metalsonic.2503

metalsonic.2503

It’s pretty true. As e-sport guild wars 2 really blows I don’t even get why they are trying to make it an e-sport as the skills have been poorly designed to such a point that they’re unbalance able.

I think the maps aren’t interesting and tbh I wouldn’t get off seeing someone play this game competitively, nor would I for any MMO. Anet can’t and won’t change how PvP works, they removed the monk class and this ofc promoted heavy bunker builds or nuker builds. But since the bunker builds are more OP and more in favor of the current maps you see mostly bunker builds/support builds so that isn’t really surprising you could’ve told from the start that if the maps where to be designed like this that it would promote either of these 2.

I like WoW better though with PvP although it’s a gear fest mainly because of raid of the crapricorn and because I spend most of the time not even pvping in Gw 2 but either laying on the ground or camping a point. I don’t think LoL has the same amount of fun that LoL / SC / WC 3 / CS could give you because of the way the gameplay is done.

I liked the original Guild Wars better in PvE and in PvP. I think they should’ve made GW 2 more like original GW instead of making it an event grindfest until 80 and then a dungeon grindfest as there are already so many mmo’s where you have to grind something to max level and then do the same repetitive dungeons.

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Posted by: Chakuna.6325

Chakuna.6325

Would read again.

Hire this guy ANet, lol.

I’m trying to go back, but I’m still here.

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Posted by: Zero.8145

Zero.8145

Ahah! I have only read the tip of the OP but i can already see where he went wrong: he thinks Star Craft is a pinnacle of esport just because it god kitten should be. What he doesnt realize is that League of Legends is the new big esport. Because: babies.
His theory of how to make guildwars 2 succede should include imbedding the stream into the client, so people playing pve count as spectators of a pvp match.

This sir, is incorrect. I chose not to speak on games that I have no experience with. I have played DotA/DotA2, but not LoL and it would not be wise for me to use aspects from games I have no knowledge of. I did talk about MobA’s in general, which encapsulates LoL. I do know LoL is the biggest esport right now, and they do many of the things stated in this post correctly. I use starcraft 2 and guildwars 1 as a comparison because it is what I have the most experience with outside of real life sports.

Would read again.
Hire this guy ANet, lol.

Thanks for the morning chuckle

(edited by Zero.8145)

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Posted by: ryston.7640

ryston.7640

I did finish reading the full post and found it very enjoyable.

My previous post was a bit of a botch now that i re-read it. What i mean, ultimately, is this:

League of Legends is, and having played both l’ll say it, DotA for babies. But its vastly more popular, their embeded stream aside it is just a more popular game. Im resentful of this. Sc2 as an esport suffers from a divided community, as a huge portion of the player base participates heavily in usemapsettings games.

Were guildwars 2 to take lessons from these games about what works and doesnt, they would, in my opinion, sacrifice fun for esport.

Instant gratification, easy to understand, and without variety. Sort of the opposite of gw1. :/