Guild Wars 2

The only high lvl pvp experience I have is from WoW S1/S2 when UA warlocks were actually good, but the main focus of the class was DoT spells.

I just realized that this game basically gives EVERY class access to DoTs that were really only designed for 1 or 2 classes back in WoW.

How do we change this blunder? Because if they reduced DoTs to like Rangers and Necros, then the other half of the game loses like 50% of its builds lol. What do you think the proper fix for this is?

Because if you give everyone access to DoT removal, then it becomes hit or miss like “did I bring CONDI removal this game or not, if not I will die to this necro, if I did, then it will help me much more”

I feel like it is really hard to fix this without literally changing the way PVP is.

Conditions are a form of damage, they are applied like direct damage, but instead of dealing one huge hit it is divided into several smaller ones. (DoT) They have to advantage to ignore armor, but they can be dodged, blocked, missed, … like direct damage and additionally be cleansed. In average they deal less damage then direct damage builds, but with the current bunker meta, they appear strong.

There has nothing to be fixed, just think about them as direct damage with a delay.

whyme.3281:

Conditions are a form of damage, they are applied like direct damage, but instead of dealing one huge hit it is divided into several smaller ones. (DoT) They have to advantage to ignore armor, but they can be dodged, blocked, missed, … like direct damage and additionally be cleansed. In average they deal less damage then direct damage builds, but with the current bunker meta, they appear strong.

There has nothing to be fixed, just think about them as direct damage with a delay.

I can do away with the damage over time thing. What irks me is the numerous CC conditions being thrown out like mad, and now that immob stacks and does not just overwrite in duration, makes dodging, or doing anything to mitigate a bombardment of conditions from even just 2 condi-spamming classes, especially necro+engie whereas condi removal is not as plentiful in all classes and builds.

whyme.3281:

Conditions are a form of damage, they are applied like direct damage, but instead of dealing one huge hit it is divided into several smaller ones. (DoT) They have to advantage to ignore armor, but they can be dodged, blocked, missed, … like direct damage and additionally be cleansed. In average they deal less damage then direct damage builds, but with the current bunker meta, they appear strong.

There has nothing to be fixed, just think about them as direct damage with a delay.

I have to stack, power/crit/precision to make a build rock

all they have to do is stack condi damage, bam. They stack 2/3 less than me, and can focus on vit/toughness and still do comparable damage, if not better.

Definatly not, they also need precision to proc sigil of earth and traits and they need condition duration to maximize their damage. The only differense is, they get condition duration with runes and not with armor stats, which could be a balance issue, but they also need survivability, to see the effect of their conditions.

They dont do more damage, maybe against players with 3k+ armor or if you compare their damage with bunker builds.

And dont try to tell me, that you can dodge direct damage, but you cant dodge condition damage, that is not true. Learn how condition work and you will see, they are fine.

whyme.3281:

Definatly not, they also need precision to proc sigil of earth and traits and they need condition duration to maximize their damage. The only differense is, they get condition duration with runes and not with armor stats, which could be a balance issue, but they also need survivability, to see the effect of their conditions.

They dont do more damage, maybe against players with 3k+ armor or if you compare their damage with bunker builds.

And dont try to tell me, that you can dodge direct damage, but you cant dodge condition damage, that is not true. Learn how condition work and you will see, they are fine.

can’t bring other variables in like sigils and stuff into the equation, we are just talking purely basic stats, all the extra stuff comes down to choice, necros don’t use sigils of earth lol? And besides, if you really want to use sigils, just use the swap that doesn’t rely on anything at all.

on a purely basic standpoint, a necro only has to stack condition damage, that is it.

my mesmer needs power/precision/crit to be effective

Tell me how that is fair. This is a CORE mechanic problem, stop talking about other variables that have no reference to this.

You must main a necro because you clearly don’t know anything about balance and don’t want your build being nerfed, its ok though.

Without bringing ANY variables besides what I mentioned, (stop trying to bring other things in) conditions are really a tough cookie to crack, and IMO, will not be balanced properly, but only fade away due to a significant meta change (which is basically happening right now)

There are tons of problems with the meta the way it is now. I agree that conditions are one of the problems, but stun locks and immob locks are just as problematic. Things that have no counter are not fun to play against, however, as a Mesmer you should at least be in a good position to beat up on Warriors that are everywhere at the moment and avoid immob locks reasonably well (Staff and MH sword both go a long way to mitigate that tactic).

The bottom line is that there need to be pretty major changes in a number of areas to break the game out of its current unfun state, and while conditions are part of the problem it is not really fair to single them out as the only issue.

Without condition duration and without precision, the damage of scepter auto atack of an nekro is:
130 (because crit chance is 4% and 2k attack) and 5*130 bleed(no condition duration) thats an attack of 780dmg on heavy golem per attack. Is this much compared to a full power, no preci, no crit dmg build?

with crits and traits and sigils, you can boost this damage, but this is the same you do with precision, crit dmg, sigils and traits on direct damage builds.

Ever played a condition build without condition duration and without precision? They suck.

whyme.3281:

Ever played a condition build without condition duration and without precision? They suck.

Generally this is the case, but ranger would like a word with you, and so would Engineer.

Spam focused builds that do not have overwhelming duration or precision can still overpower your cleanses.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

There are tons of problems with the meta the way it is now. I agree that conditions are one of the problems, but stun locks and immob locks are just as problematic. Things that have no counter are not fun to play against, however, as a Mesmer you should at least be in a good position to beat up on Warriors that are everywhere at the moment and avoid immob locks reasonably well (Staff and MH sword both go a long way to mitigate that tactic).

The bottom line is that there need to be pretty major changes in a number of areas to break the game out of its current unfun state, and while conditions are part of the problem it is not really fair to single them out as the only issue.

Never said I hated eating warriors I love the way the meta is changing lol.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

whyme.3281:

Ever played a condition build without condition duration and without precision? They suck.

Generally this is the case, but ranger would like a word with you, and so would Engineer.

Spam focused builds that do not have overwhelming duration or precision can still overpower your cleanses.

The damage a bunker ranger deals comes from their pet or some utility skills, that gives them easier access to conditions. There is a reason that they are strong, but its more their hybrid build and not their DoTs.

And I’m not sure what engi build you are talking about right now. But here counts the same as for the ranger, they have alot of skills, that can apply conditions, grenades, turrets, flamethrower…. plus, they have a very high condition duration on their skills, so they dont need to rely on crits.

But Divinity said necros dont need precision, but the only build that could work like this would be a MM condi bunker build (compareable with ranger bunker). With every other condition build, a nekro need crits to increase his damage.

Divinity.8041:

I have to stack, power/crit/precision to make a build rock

all they have to do is stack condi damage, bam. They stack 2/3 less than me, and can focus on vit/toughness and still do comparable damage, if not better.

This is quite frankly absolute bullkitten.

If i dropped all my Power, i’d be dealing even less direct damage. And precision is even more important, because i proc conditions on crits.

I very much need Precision for my dps. And i mix in some power with defensive stats to trade off not being to squishy, while still being able to get a decent hit in with some abilities, that wont be cleansed 3seconds later.
You show me an Engineer that has no precision, and i’ll show you an engineer that will be proccing a lot less burns and bleeds.

Stop persisting the fantasy that all condition builds just need condition damage.

whyme.3281:

Definatly not, they also need precision to proc sigil of earth and traits and they need condition duration to maximize their damage

Terrahero.9358:

Stop persisting the fantasy that all condition builds just need condition damage.

This is absolute bull guys

sigils =

1 extra bleed every 5 seconds if you have a lot of precision(2 sec cd and 60% to apply a bleed if you crit)

or 3 bleed stacks aoe on 10 second cooldown

There is also toughness gear that gives both prec and condi damage while the quivalent in power would be valkyrie wich is less than half as optimal in comparison dps wise.

So please let’s keep things real.

Terrahero.9358:

Divinity.8041:

I have to stack, power/crit/precision to make a build rock

all they have to do is stack condi damage, bam. They stack 2/3 less than me, and can focus on vit/toughness and still do comparable damage, if not better.

This is quite frankly absolute bullkitten.

If i dropped all my Power, i’d be dealing even less direct damage. And precision is even more important, because i proc conditions on crits.

I very much need Precision for my dps. And i mix in some power with defensive stats to trade off not being to squishy, while still being able to get a decent hit in with some abilities, that wont be cleansed 3seconds later.
You show me an Engineer that has no precision, and i’ll show you an engineer that will be proccing a lot less burns and bleeds.

Stop persisting the fantasy that all condition builds just need condition damage.

I guess I should have been more clear, I am not taking anything into account to do damage.

A necromancer does not need crit to inflict DPS, even without his burning trait, he will melt your face off.

If all a mesmer had was precision, what would happen? You would crit your 1 damage into 2?

Meanwhile if a necro has a ton of condition damage, he melts your face off.

stop bringing other mechanics into this discussion, they are irrelevant

A necro for example has to stack 1 thing, every other class in the game has to stack 3.

CONDIS can’t crit, another variable must crit to create the supposed effects you are speaking of, I am talking about a core mechanic not something related to it. You need to fix the ROOT of the problem.

Not to mention…to be honest? CONDIS should really only be on 1-2 classes in this game, not every one. They are too easily accessible, spammable, and have a low skill floor. This is going to be a very hard fix, and will most likely cause huge uproar.

mini.6018:

whyme.3281:

Definatly not, they also need precision to proc sigil of earth and traits and they need condition duration to maximize their damage

Terrahero.9358:

Stop persisting the fantasy that all condition builds just need condition damage.

This is absolute bull guys

sigils =

1 extra bleed every 5 seconds if you have a lot of precision(2 sec cd and 60% to apply a bleed if you crit)

or 3 bleed stacks aoe on 10 second cooldown

There is also toughness gear that gives both prec and condi damage while the quivalent in power would be valkyrie wich is less than half as optimal in comparison dps wise.

So please let’s keep things real.

We are keeping real. As a Conditionbuild you cant maximize your damage without precision, without condition damage, without condition duration, without traits and without sigils and runes. Thats the same as going on full berserker gear.

Saying that condition builds only need condition damage is same as saying “direct damage builds only need power for max damage”

@Divinity: I did the math in my third post, without crit and traits etc. its only 780damage per attack, I cant see, where this is melting someones face compared to direct damage with 4k+ per attack.

whyme.3281:

mini.6018:

whyme.3281:

Definatly not, they also need precision to proc sigil of earth and traits and they need condition duration to maximize their damage

Terrahero.9358:

Stop persisting the fantasy that all condition builds just need condition damage.

This is absolute bull guys

sigils =

1 extra bleed every 5 seconds if you have a lot of precision(2 sec cd and 60% to apply a bleed if you crit)

or 3 bleed stacks aoe on 10 second cooldown

There is also toughness gear that gives both prec and condi damage while the quivalent in power would be valkyrie wich is less than half as optimal in comparison dps wise.

So please let’s keep things real.

We are keeping real. As a Conditionbuild you cant maximize your damage without precision, without condition damage, without condition duration, without traits and without sigils and runes. Thats the same as going on full berserker gear.

Saying that condition builds only need condition damage is same as saying “direct damage builds only need power for max damage”

@Divinity: I did the math in my third post, without crit and traits etc. its only 780damage per attack, I cant see, where this is melting someones face compared to direct damage with 4k+ per attack.

I don’t trust anyone’s math, but what I am trying to say is that too many classes have access to condi builds that shouldn’t. The way they are applied is too easy, there is no risk involved really. Do you know how hard it is to play a shatter mesmer compared to a blackwater mesmer?

Shatter = glass power/prec/crit
Blackwater = toughness/condi damage

It creates the risk/reward paradox where there is little reward for being so glassy, yet ALL the risk. Necros for example have no real downside stacking toughness/condi yet all the world to gain for little risk, ALL reward.

this is a mechanic issue, and deeply rooted into the game at this point which is scary, because they either have to do a game breaking change to classes, or the easier route, and nerf conditions into oblivion, and only give necros or something like that new traits to make them feasible again.

whyme.3281:

mini.6018:

whyme.3281:

Definatly not, they also need precision to proc sigil of earth and traits and they need condition duration to maximize their damage

Terrahero.9358:

Stop persisting the fantasy that all condition builds just need condition damage.

This is absolute bull guys

sigils =

1 extra bleed every 5 seconds if you have a lot of precision(2 sec cd and 60% to apply a bleed if you crit)

or 3 bleed stacks aoe on 10 second cooldown

There is also toughness gear that gives both prec and condi damage while the quivalent in power would be valkyrie wich is less than half as optimal in comparison dps wise.

So please let’s keep things real.

We are keeping real. As a Conditionbuild you cant maximize your damage without precision, without condition damage, without condition duration, without traits and without sigils and runes. Thats the same as going on full berserker gear.

Saying that condition builds only need condition damage is same as saying “direct damage builds only need power for max damage”

@Divinity: I did the math in my third post, without crit and traits etc. its only 780damage per attack, I cant see, where this is melting someones face compared to direct damage with 4k+ per attack.

Maximize does not equal optimal hence no you are not keeping it real.Maximizizing would mean rampager gear wich no one uses since condi only is already stronger and has a lot more uptime than direct damage in pvp.

If you compare (p/v/t) and (c/v/t) cvt will win by a longshot dps wise and the same if you compare (t/prec/power) to (t/prec/condi)

Divinity.8041:

A necromancer does not need crit to inflict DPS, even without his burning trait, he will melt your face off.

As said above 780 Damage from a scepter Auto isn’t much. I think that damage deals every autoattack in a full power build. A Necro will not melt anyones face without crit and especcially condi duration.

Divinity.8041:

If all a mesmer had was precision, what would happen? You would crit your 1 damage into 2?

You really compare precision with condition damage? Are you serious?
Use Power and you will see, how your dmage will increase.

Divinity.8041:

stop bringing other mechanics into this discussion, they are irrelevant

Comparing a crit on a power build with a crit on a direct damage build isn’t an other mechanic. Both increase your damage by a random base. while, on a condition build you have to pay with traits and sigils to get a benefit out of it.
The same goes for crit damage. it increases the damage a crit can deal. same goes for condition duration.

Divinity.8041:

A necro for example has to stack 1 thing, every other class in the game has to stack 3.

not true! as said several times.

Divinity.8041:

CONDIS can’t crit, another variable must crit to create the supposed effects you are speaking of, I am talking about a core mechanic not something related to it. You need to fix the ROOT of the problem.

speaking of core mechanics, you have to look at the skills for there own. Necro Scepter one applies 5s bleed with 130dmg/s thats 650 damage plus a small amount of direct damage (without power that’s around 130) → 780 damage with an auto attack.
Try out a build with power only (no precision) and he will deal the same damage. Probably not a mesmer, without phantasms, but is that necros or conditions fault? Warriors for example hit much harder.

Divinity.8041:

I don’t trust anyone’s math,

then calculate it for yourself

Divinity.8041:

the rest

Condition is just an other form of damage, It has its strength and weakness like direct damage too. It is good, that a lot of classes can use it, because it is more flexible game then. Would be boring if guards could only play tanks.

@mini:
rampager gear would be the same as assasin gear. Does anyone use that to maximize damage (in WvW/PvE)? It would be even worth because Condition builds don’t need power.

@ Unleashed.Power build needs precision/power and crit damage to be effective condition only needs condi damage while duration and precision are bonuses.No one ever will live a 20 second condi duration spam fest while a necro can kill you just during the fearchain.Please explain to me why do you need condi duration if you can melt someone before the fear train is over aka 5-6 seconds.

Also gear does not include condi duration as a base stat like crit damage is.If condi duration would be the equivalent of crit damage on armor as stats than we would have an argument here but for not this isn’t the case.

For condi to be equal to power builds armor statwise the combination should look like this

Power
Precision
Critical DAmage

vs

Condition
Precision
Condition Duration

Wich as a matter of fact could be a good suggestion for someone to make to Arenanet in order to balance conditions once and for all.That and remove condition duration from any rune/sigil and foods,reduce the base condition duration on skills and buff the condi% duration stat on gear to match the current condi duration on builds, in order to make it effective.

mini.6018:

@ Unleashed.Power build needs precision/power and crit damage to be effective condition only needs condi damage while duration and precision are bonuses.

We wont agree on that.

mini.6018:

No one ever will live a 20 second condi duration spam fest while a necro can kill you just during the fearchain.Please explain to me why do you need condi duration if you can melt someone before the fear train is over aka 5-6 seconds.

No one will ever survive a Stunlock warrior hundred blading you to death, so what that is one build out of hundreds. that doesn’t prof anything.

mini.6018:

Also gear does not include condi duration as a base stat like crit damage is.If condi duration would be the equivalent of crit damage on armor as stats than we would have an argument here but for not this isn’t the case.

I would love to see such a combination, like most condition players would. It is a shame that there is no such combination, but does that change anything on the mechanic how those stats work?

mini.6018:

Wich as a matter of fact could be a good suggestion for someone to make to Arenanet in order to balance conditions once and for all.That and remove condition duration from any rune/sigil and foods,reduce the base condition duration on skills and buff the condi% duration stat on gear to match the current condi duration on builds, in order to make it effective.

Then remove +% damage and Crit damage traits, runes, sigils and food as well. See where this is going, there wont be many runes left then.

mini.6018:

If you compare (p/v/t) and (c/v/t) cvt will win by a longshot dps wise and the same if you compare (t/prec/power) to (t/prec/condi)

This needs to be proofed. But im sure, p/v/t can hit with 700-1k per attack too, like c/v/t can do.

mini.6018:

@ Unleashed.Power build needs precision/power and crit damage to be effective condition only needs condi damage while duration and precision are bonuses.

Preci and crit dmg is a bonus to powerbuild too, its not that easy as you think.

mini.6018:

For condi to be equal to power builds armor statwise the combination should look like this

Power
Precision
Critical DAmage

vs

Condition
Precision
Condition Duration

Wich as a matter of fact could be a good suggestion for someone to make to Arenanet in order to balance conditions once and for all.That and remove condition duration from any rune/sigil and foods,reduce the base condition duration on skills and buff the condi% duration stat on gear to match the current condi duration on builds, in order to make it effective.

Now its getting interesting. Yes, there is no stat combination like this, I would really love to see something like this. But then again, remove everything from runes? why? We have schoolar runes, etc. all give crit dmg, so why no condi duration? Maybe you mean reduce condi duration on runes .

whyme.3281:

Saying that condition builds only need condition damage is same as saying “direct damage builds only need power for max damage”

What.

Why are you saying this in structured forums.

Also, I’m really not at all sure why you guys are talking about PvE stat nomenclatures.

whyme.3281:

Definatly not, they also need precision to proc sigil of earth

You do realize… sigil of earth has a 2s internal CD, so you’ll average one proc every 6-7s WITH high crit.

The minors are a nifty addition (short duration bleed, no internal CD), about as good as sigil of earth if I remember my math right.
The only reason crit is even mentioned for condi builds are because of traits like dhuumfire and the mesmer clone bleed on crit.

You should quote the next to word too, then you can read “and traits”.

And even if there is an internal CD, there are other sigil, that can give Conditions on crit or on other circumstances. This doesnt change the fact, that you need crits to maximize condition damage.

whyme.3281:

You should quote the next to word too, then you can read “and traits”.

And even if there is an internal CD, there are other sigil, that can give Conditions on crit or on other circumstances. This doesnt change the fact, that you need crits to maximize condition damage.

I wish i had the option to trade 1% of my dps for 1k armor and 10k hp while running max dps build too^^ .Funny guy