Guild Wars 2

So I have typed up something for the community to discuss on future changes to Guild Wars. For this I wanted to know what people think about this GvG idea.

I posted a link to the PDF of what I wrote.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kx6zmogdrbynbb5/Project%20GvG.pdf

A little background : I have played Guild Wars since before I hit puberty and I’m like 20 now, so this game has been a great child hood memory. I especially enjoy GvG match ups in GW1 and I think it was the best PvP experience I have ever encountered. I just wanted to bring back the joy of it in this game, because I think it has great potential to succeed!

I wrote this at like 2 am and I have a midterm tomorrow so, obviously this was very important that I typed this up because I cannot sleep!

If there are any typos, and I know there are, please let me know and I will get them fixed ASAP.

Inb4 you get banned or infracted for suggesting such blasphemy. I think Anet already stated countless times that GvG is something they don’t want to add to Guild Wars 2.

It seems like a well thought out concept, but honestly, GW2 doesn’t have the intricacy and mechanics to bring back the GW1 feel. It has just been watered down too much in favor of MOBA-like gameplay (stunstunpewpewgg).

Im not sure why people want to make GvG in sPvP with system of 6v6. This is quite boring, still in fact 6v6 is more like self skill insted of group skill. GvG that is on going in WvW (15vs15 / 20v20 ) is much better for watch, of course maybe for spvp fanboys is zergs, but still require much more teamplay from guild, fight is much faster, and there is at least 100+ active guilds who want to practicipe on it.

sPvP stats on 6v6 in most cases making you to have most of builds on zerk, so even if you have 6 classes, and you can double it, its quite boring, since there will be all the time the same tactic,strategy,setup. In WvW GvG you can have much more rotaction on classes, and more builds that are viable for that. Ofc on e-delusion sport, WvW GvG dont have a chance, but STILL any GvG on twitch.tv in WvW have much more audience that any spvp gvg/tournament.

Anyway haters, come hit me. Play your GvG spvp 6v6 which is boring as hell, and yes i was watching one of this GvG 6v6 – after 30 sec it makes me wanna quite this game – same setup, same tactic, everything was the same (even builds) lol

btw i spend 80% time on WvW, playing like 2-3 games spvp per 2 days, and im (or was yesterday) 12 on ranking. Im spvp god? populaction of spvp is that small, or that bad.

LotuS.4378:

Im not sure why people want to make GvG in sPvP with system of 6v6. This is quite boring, still in fact 6v6 is more like self skill insted of group skill. GvG that is on going in WvW (15vs15 / 20v20 ) is much better for watch, of course maybe for spvp fanboys is zergs, but still require much more teamplay from guild, fight is much faster, and there is at least 100+ active guilds who want to practicipe on it.

sPvP stats on 6v6 in most cases making you to have most of builds on zerk, so even if you have 6 classes, and you can double it, its quite boring, since there will be all the time the same tactic,strategy,setup. In WvW GvG you can have much more rotaction on classes, and more builds that are viable for that. Ofc on e-delusion sport, WvW GvG dont have a chance, but STILL any GvG on twitch.tv in WvW have much more audience that any spvp gvg/tournament.

Anyway haters, come hit me. Play your GvG spvp 6v6 which is boring as hell, and yes i was watching one of this GvG 6v6 – after 30 sec it makes me wanna quite this game – same setup, same tactic, everything was the same (even builds) lol

btw i spend 80% time on WvW, playing like 2-3 games spvp per 2 days, and im (or was yesterday) 12 on ranking. Im spvp god? populaction of spvp is that small, or that bad.

Sorry but I’ve played in coordinated WvW groups and although it takes group wide coordination, it is difficult for ANYONE to see individual skill, which is why it doesn’t get taken as seriously as it could.

And I completely disagree with you that WvW GvG is fun to watch. Its obviously a zerg fest. You can’t call out any big plays except “Now they’re stacking might, now they’re pushing, now they’re blast combo-ing, oh look we have a downed body.” I don’t know if you have ever seen a proper GvG in GW1, but they were amazing to watch. Seeing teams split up and push for the lord, last minute ganks in the Lord pit, and slowly beating up the other team into submission were really fun tactics to watch.

Now, to the OP, I think GvG could work in sPvP. Honestly, I don’t know why they didn’t ever implement GvG to begin with. It DOES work with the system because fights between good players can last longer than Arenanet thinks (see the 2v2 tournaments casted by blu.) Additionally, it’d take way more complex team coordination when it comes to splitting and trying to be more aggressive than your opponent.

And as you said, it would promote players making more builds and branching out from bunker/condi point spam. Professions get quite a bit less spammy when you spread them out and encourage small fights and team pushes. They are no longer fighting over a small point, they are fighting to gain map control and push the enemy back into their base. This takes way more thought and coordination between teammates than the current conquest mode.

This thread deserves more attention, great post.

Guild Wars 1 pvp was so much fun, mang, even the hotjoin was epic with 3 groups of 4 vs 3 groups of 4 (all spawning in different areas of the map) was so awesome!

But I was a minority that enjoyed gw1 pvp, I suppose that is the no1 reason they want to design something similar but different?

I just want to reinstate that guys it’s ok! people didn’t quit because of your pvp game types, it was because they couldn’t jump! :P

Elegant Avenger.8042:

Sorry but I’ve played in coordinated WvW groups and although it takes group wide coordination, it is difficult for ANYONE to see individual skill, which is why it doesn’t get taken as seriously as it could.

And I completely disagree with you that WvW GvG is fun to watch. Its obviously a zerg fest. You can’t call out any big plays except “Now they’re stacking might, now they’re pushing, now they’re blast combo-ing, oh look we have a downed body.” I don’t know if you have ever seen a proper GvG in GW1, but they were amazing to watch. Seeing teams split up and push for the lord, last minute ganks in the Lord pit, and slowly beating up the other team into submission were really fun tactics to watch.

Now, to the OP, I think GvG could work in sPvP. Honestly, I don’t know why they didn’t ever implement GvG to begin with. It DOES work with the system because fights between good players can last longer than Arenanet thinks (see the 2v2 tournaments casted by blu.) Additionally, it’d take way more complex team coordination when it comes to splitting and trying to be more aggressive than your opponent.

And as you said, it would promote players making more builds and branching out from bunker/condi point spam. Professions get quite a bit less spammy when you spread them out and encourage small fights and team pushes. They are no longer fighting over a small point, they are fighting to gain map control and push the enemy back into their base. This takes way more thought and coordination between teammates than the current conquest mode.

This thread deserves more attention, great post.

The individual skills matter to the outcome of the fight. If players are failing to do what their meant to do in the group fight,everyone suffers from that. Its not only about healing or blasting fields but how everyone is position,rotating skills and following commands. Everyone’s individual skills give the final outcome of how skilled certain group of players is, this is where you cannot be carried by the rest coz if you keep dying stupidly, you’ll keep making your allies ressing you and potential get them killed or simply ress your enemies.

GvGs have more LIVE viwers on the set than any stream of spvp tournament has on twitch. Believe it or not, many players/guilds are being asked (politely) to leave the map so the GvG-ing guilds can have all their needed members on the map. And the visibility in big fights is one of the very main issues why this game mode, GvG, isnt going anywhere and shows the lack of support. On the other hand, everyone who is aware how GvG fights work can have quite a good overview and thus shoutcast and comment on a GvG fight (Im not making this up,its already being done) if spectating someone (for instance, watching stream)

The beuaty of the GvG fights is that they last long and the coordination between the players make the difference in the choke moments. Not sure if you aware of this but nowadays GvG guilds have 4-5 players that are running solo-target builds and are in seperate group with the goal to nuke down those spliting or make them split. Creating troubles for many trying to position or live over for few seconds on low HP. One of viable traits of the GvG guilds. Just to add that simple 10v10 on Foefire can last for ~10 mins with quite some epics moves on both sides.

More thought are being put into preparing for ANY GvG than spvpers preparing for conquest match. I woudnt say the diversity in the builds is that big tho.

Im not quite sure tho, why are we discussing this? Anet has shown us that they simply dont care about that. Have in mind very crucial feature like boon sharing was added after the 1 year anniversary of the game. Not to start commenting on the boon stripping… which is totally random.

What annoys me most is that Anet doesnt want to realise that their e-sport is already here and requires SO less to evolve in something so strong and awesome. All you really need to do for the GvG scene to evolve is:
- More visibility in the big fights.
- GvG ladder (official one)
- Commander UI – its simply enough to add the option to see all your members lol or proper “Follow Me” icon.
- Shoutcast/support
- General game stability and skill delay issues
- Proper map – hearing some disturbing opinions about the new “GvG map”
Pretty sure there are more viable stuff to be added but I’ll stop here. Its quite simple in my eyes and at the same time benefical. Also have in mind this wont intrude or anyhow influnce the developement of the sPvP part of the game and can be done even as aside note.

Its about time the door/node rubbing to stop and actual Player versus Player fights to be encouraged in both sPvP and WvW.

My 2c.

I’d post videos to prove my words if I could but (un)fortunately this info is kinda private and might be found insulting to some. How a fight shifts into nightmare for seconds and how those leading change in a matter of seconds coz of deaths, how those about to die ress up in the very last second and change the outcome looking at Super’s private GvG vids from 3-4 months ago

Jinx.7258:

The individual skills matter to the outcome of the fight. If players are failing to do what their meant to do in the group fight,everyone suffers from that. Its not only about healing or blasting fields but how everyone is position,rotating skills and following commands. Everyone’s individual skills give the final outcome of how skilled certain group of players is, this is where you cannot be carried by the rest coz if you keep dying stupidly, you’ll keep making your allies ressing you and potential get them killed or simply ress your enemies.

GvGs have more LIVE viwers on the set than any stream of spvp tournament has on twitch. Believe it or not, many players/guilds are being asked (politely) to leave the map so the GvG-ing guilds can have all their needed members on the map. And the visibility in big fights is one of the very main issues why this game mode, GvG, isnt going anywhere and shows the lack of support. On the other hand, everyone who is aware how GvG fights work can have quite a good overview and thus shoutcast and comment on a GvG fight (Im not making this up,its already being done) if spectating someone (for instance, watching stream)

The beuaty of the GvG fights is that they last long and the coordination between the players make the difference in the choke moments. Not sure if you aware of this but nowadays GvG guilds have 4-5 players that are running solo-target builds and are in seperate group with the goal to nuke down those spliting or make them split. Creating troubles for many trying to position or live over for few seconds on low HP. One of viable traits of the GvG guilds. Just to add that simple 10v10 on Foefire can last for ~10 mins with quite some epics moves on both sides.

More thought are being put into preparing for ANY GvG than spvpers preparing for conquest match. I woudnt say the diversity in the builds is that big tho.

My 2c.

Ok I can respect that. I mean, I’m not trying to take anything away from big guild fights. It is just that GvG has always kind of been Guild Wars’ “thing” in a sense. The specific form of GvG in GW1 is what made the game great. I can totally see how those WvW battles are fun. They’re just too difficult to follow (not because I’m lacking experience, but because it isn’t a spectating sport), making it hard to track the good plays and clutch moments.

Smaller group GvG was like GW1’s best aspect, and unfortunately they didn’t carry it over. So understand that it is hard for some of us veteran players to accept what WvW’ers call GvG because it is completely different than what it was in GW1.

I’m sure there are parts of WvW GvG that take skill, but GvG in GW1 was like its legacy. I would love if Arenanet introduced this game mode, but continued to support the WvW community and their form of “GvG”.

I completely aggre. What actually can be done is 10v10 to be sort of GvG in sPvP. Dont really need bigger maps than they current are. Just spacier and no nodes. (so no software excuses) Players with typical WvW/GvG builds can fight over there, it would be so bloody awesome. Both individual skills and group skills will matter because this is neither too big nor too small scale. Ah,the dream of GvG sPvP map still remains /sigh

Jinx.7258:

GvGs have more LIVE viwers on the set than any stream of spvp tournament has on twitch. Believe it or not, many players/guilds are being asked (politely) to leave the map so the GvG-ing guilds can have all their needed members on the map. And the visibility in big fights is one of the very main issues why this game mode, GvG, isnt going anywhere and shows the lack of support. On the other hand, everyone who is aware how GvG fights work can have quite a good overview and thus shoutcast and comment on a GvG fight (Im not making this up,its already being done) if spectating someone (for instance, watching stream)

So you’re saying that there’s 800+ people watching the GvG match ingame?

Brix.8461:

So you’re saying that there’s 800+ people watching the GvG match ingame?

No,of course not. Im saying that all the 3 maps are queued. And ~80% of the players in there are on the GvG spot (which causes lag).

You dont get over 800 people watching spvp tournaments… that are happening regularly… Argueing about that is so silly… Is that some way of proving that GvGs are not popular and no one is watching them?

What I had in mind is for this game type is more the fact that team can pull back to their gates if they are taking too much pressure mid, to have a slight advantage in terms of man power. I think if this became a high level match up, people would think twice if they want to push all their power into the front gate or back door etc.

Being able to revive NPC, capping nodes, and flag stands are all secondary to protecting or killing their GL. Since GW2 has an intense combat system, bringing secondary mechanics like NPC presence would, running flags creates a much more dynamic game play. This map is not designed for zergfesting but more of intellectual strategies.

An example would be say the enemy team managed to take down 2 people at flag stand and are now fighting the NPC’s at the front gate 6v4. If the 6 so not send over a person to decap the other teams home point, they can just keep repairing their front gate until the rest of the team comes back to life. Now the 6 will be out numbered at the gates and they have made a horrible decision trying to push with all their forces in one area.

Splitting will be key to this game type, there’s little room for bunkering besides defending home point.

Another risk would also be, pushing Blackdoor with all your power while leaving the flagstand and their home a free cap to the other team , the buffs the other team will get every minute will be huge, so ensuring that the other team does not get buffs will play a big role. Fighting in the pit is going to be miserable to the other team if they don’t contain the front door for people to cap their home point.

What I had in mind is more risk/reward situations, obviously there has to be a lot of testing, but I think it could really work.

GvG in PvP is too basic. There is not enough strategy with the limited number of players on a team and equipment choices.

GvG in WvW is much more fun when you do a 15v15 or 20v20. It adds a whole different level of strategy.

style.6173:

GvG in PvP is too basic. There is not enough strategy with the limited number of players on a team and equipment choices.

GvG in WvW is much more fun when you do a 15v15 or 20v20. It adds a whole different level of strategy.

You said that GvG in PvP does not require enough strategy, but Irene just explained the complex nature of GvG (similar to how it was in GW1). 15v15 and 20v20 are good for WvW guild battles, but DO NOT have the potential to be e sports. The skill cap to play well with a WvW guild in a guild battle is not that high.

The coordination between 5-6 people needing to counter the other team is much more strategic and hard to pull off. I realize that WvW GvG takes a lot of logistical coordination, but timing blast finishers and staying together really isn’t that challenging. I’ve also already explained that GvG in WvW is almost impossible to watch. Besides, the point of this thread wasn’t to try to get rid of WvW GvG, so maybe we should keep it on topic.

style.6173:

GvG in PvP is too basic. There is not enough strategy with the limited number of players on a team and equipment choices.

GvG in WvW is much more fun when you do a 15v15 or 20v20. It adds a whole different level of strategy.

I think you guys are talking without actually trying it out. GvG in SPvP is just a miniaturized version of the 20v20. The builds used in the Zerg format can work if tuned for smaller scale combat.

Only recently did we at bloodytech held our SPvP GvG tournament and quite a few builds that we saw there aren’t used in normal SPvP.
Team NRK (and I think Trill) were using a Support Necro. An Elementalist was also used by NRK, Stream Team and 55HP Monks a class that people consider dead in the water in SPvP.

For you to say there isn’t any build diversity within the SPvP GvG is for you to not be well informed.

This is the GvG of GW1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFWvdyCk1Uo

To break it down: This was a spike team build / balance build where the players from a team would coordinate to nearly instantaneously and simultaneously burst down a specific target, while attempting to lock down their backline to prevent the spike from failing.

Every time a spike was successful was because an insanely timed D-shot or interupt was put down allowing the damage from their front and mid-line to pass through to their target.

Every time a spike failed, was because they didn’t properly lock down their mid line interrupters or monks / backline which provided protection and healing. Usually from a crazy reflex use of Infuse Health ( http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Infuse_Health ) to stop the players from going down.

from an outside perspective it may be hard to see, but even to someone who has never seen the game before can tell the entire team reacted at a single moment to take down a player or save their life.

GW2….these types of plays happen, but are harder to see, and happen fairly rare.

Dirame.8521:

Only recently did we at bloodytech held our SPvP GvG tournament and quite a few builds that we saw there aren’t used in normal SPvP.
Team NRK (and I think Trill) were using a Support Necro. An Elementalist was also used by NRK, Stream Team and 55HP Monks a class that people consider dead in the water in SPvP.

For you to say there isn’t any build diversity within the SPvP GvG is for you to not be well informed.

Whats next? Bunker thieves and DPS rangers?… Best example of GvG tournament ever. Half clueless and half running “self-made builds” lol… get a grip

If a necro is using Lich Form says enough how much he knows about his class. So you sir, are the one NOT informed. Running NOT cookie-cutter builds doesnt make you better player, makes you look stupid. These builds are so called coz they give you the maximum you can get out of your class in the current meta….

Jinx.7258:

Dirame.8521:

Only recently did we at bloodytech held our SPvP GvG tournament and quite a few builds that we saw there aren’t used in normal SPvP.
Team NRK (and I think Trill) were using a Support Necro. An Elementalist was also used by NRK, Stream Team and 55HP Monks a class that people consider dead in the water in SPvP.

For you to say there isn’t any build diversity within the SPvP GvG is for you to not be well informed.

Whats next? Bunker thieves and DPS rangers?… Best example of GvG tournament ever. Half clueless and half running “self-made builds” lol… get a grip

If a necro is using Lich Form says enough how much he knows about his class. So you sir, are the one NOT informed. Running NOT cookie-cutter builds doesnt make you better player, makes you look stupid. These builds are so called coz they give you the maximum you can get out of your class in the current meta….

So not running what everyone else runs makes you bad? You make great points sir, but let me show you a perspective that you might understand;
Question; Where does innovation come from? Sticking to old ideas or trying new things?
Another Question; All those builds that are “cookie cutter” did they not start out as unpopular?

Now, if you’re going to diss people’s decisions and trains of thought because they don’t align with yours, then you have no business having a discussion due to the fact that you’re only here to listen to yourself. And I can’t be bothered with your class of forum personality.

Please let’s stick to discussing GvG (GL style/not wvw) potential here.

Dirame.8521:

Jinx.7258:

Dirame.8521:

Only recently did we at bloodytech held our SPvP GvG tournament and quite a few builds that we saw there aren’t used in normal SPvP.
Team NRK (and I think Trill) were using a Support Necro. An Elementalist was also used by NRK, Stream Team and 55HP Monks a class that people consider dead in the water in SPvP.

For you to say there isn’t any build diversity within the SPvP GvG is for you to not be well informed.

Whats next? Bunker thieves and DPS rangers?… Best example of GvG tournament ever. Half clueless and half running “self-made builds” lol… get a grip

If a necro is using Lich Form says enough how much he knows about his class. So you sir, are the one NOT informed. Running NOT cookie-cutter builds doesnt make you better player, makes you look stupid. These builds are so called coz they give you the maximum you can get out of your class in the current meta….

So not running what everyone else runs makes you bad? You make great points sir, but let me show you a perspective that you might understand;
Question; Where does innovation come from? Sticking to old ideas or trying new things?
Another Question; All those builds that are “cookie cutter” did they not start out as unpopular?

Now, if you’re going to diss people’s decisions and trains of thought because they don’t align with yours, then you have no business having a discussion due to the fact that you’re only here to listen to yourself. And I can’t be bothered with your class of forum personality.

New builds are being tested when new meta is being shift. You are contradicting with yourself.

The map just opens up more possibilities in terms of game play.
It adds a sense of accomplishment rather than wait for your score to hit 500.

I think introducing nodes as secondary objectives isn’t a bad idea, especially if it can change the tide of the game. There is purpose to capping and decapping flag stand and home points. Since the ultimate goal is to kill the GL, nodes act as “extra” weapons for doing so.

Dirame.8521:

style.6173:

GvG in PvP is too basic. There is not enough strategy with the limited number of players on a team and equipment choices.

GvG in WvW is much more fun when you do a 15v15 or 20v20. It adds a whole different level of strategy.

I think you guys are talking without actually trying it out. GvG in SPvP is just a miniaturized version of the 20v20. The builds used in the Zerg format can work if tuned for smaller scale combat.

Only recently did we at bloodytech held our SPvP GvG tournament and quite a few builds that we saw there aren’t used in normal SPvP.
Team NRK (and I think Trill) were using a Support Necro. An Elementalist was also used by NRK, Stream Team and 55HP Monks a class that people consider dead in the water in SPvP.

For you to say there isn’t any build diversity within the SPvP GvG is for you to not be well informed.

I didn’t saythere isn’t build diversity. It is that the number of options are much less than in WvW. It is basic vs complex.

I’m not against the team deathmatch concept in PvP. In fact, I think it would be much more exciting to watch than conquest. I’m just saying that the strategy is much greater if you build it into WvW. You can’t really argue with that and all of the armor/trinket/rune/weapon/food combos.

@OP:

I’m not really a big fan of the spirit watch orb mechanic. There is a reason that map is not in tPvP. It is way to unbalanced around certain classes right now. I’d like it much more if people were just fighting over one point (think foefire center but slightly larger) and the winner of that fight wins the battle.

Breakkitten9765:

It seems like a well thought out concept, but honestly, GW2 doesn’t have the intricacy and mechanics to bring back the GW1 feel. It has just been watered down too much in favor of MOBA-like gameplay (stunstunpewpewgg).

Missing your ranger, eh?

Well the purpose of split play with this game type is to not have a massive zergball at mid. Having the option to go back door is such a huge part of making a successful play…. WvW GvG is not the point of this. I guess Guild Battle would be a more suitable name for this game type.

A team wiping at mid is definitely bad, but being able to have comeback mechanic is the beautiful thing. The map layout is such that there is easy short access between guild front gates, while there is a much larger distance to cover to get to the opposing teams home point. But being able to control this area grants great benefits to the team and cripples the other team ability to defend. That’s why pushing full force to the opposing home point would be a bad idea because it leaves the front gate of the opposing team a free drop, not to mention the buff from holding the flag grants buff.

Yes this is way different from the original GW, but using same win conditions with the already existing map mechanics. I think Guild Battle is definitely possible.