Guild Wars 2

Why can’t we have an automatic half hour penalty box for not completing a rated spvp match. Basically the next time you log in you won’t be able to queue for a half hour. I’m not saying it would effect much but it might cause people to think twice. Anything at this point couldn’t hurt.

If only there was a prison system like in Age of Wulin, so that people get put in that special room for ingame hours to atone for their sins!

Make it 2 hours for the first offense and have it keep scaling up past days->weeks->month. Maybe then we’ll have fewer people afk/quit since a couple of days of not being able to PvP is meaningless to a lot of players.

Well, they dont do this because if it kept stacking time it would drive people from the game, and everyone knows what MMOs are about…money. Plus I dont believe that something such as Disconnecting from a match should be punishable which the OP somewhat said, because I D/C all the time, not purposely, and I dont think I should be punished for d/cing.

Anhomedog.7968:

Well, they dont do this because if it kept stacking time it would drive people from the game, and everyone knows what MMOs are about…money. Plus I dont believe that something such as Disconnecting from a match should be punishable which the OP somewhat said, because I D/C all the time, not purposely, and I dont think I should be punished for d/cing.

I D/C’d out of tpvp a couple times one night when my net was acting up as usual. I got 2 and a half days of deserter….

All very good ideas!! But imagine YOU are on a team arena or tournament and get dc for some reason (ISP, power cut, rooter, whatever) and when you try to come back to help your friends in the match… UPS!!! “Be back in 30min guys, gl!!”

Don’t be short minded, think about the consequences of your suggestions in all possible scenarios, not just the one that suits you at given time.

Obviously a penalty system would be designed to differentiate between disconnects and AFKs. It’s simple, really: Idle for < 5 minutes = considered a disconnection, and no deserter penalty. Idle for > 5 minutes = AFK, deserter penalty.

If a player cannot seem to re-connect within 5 minutes, then they have significantly impacted their team’s chances of winning the match due to making it a 4v5 for a substantial amount of time, and they deserve to be penalized for that.

Anhomedog.7968:

Well, they dont do this because if it kept stacking time it would drive people from the game, and everyone knows what MMOs are about…money. Plus I dont believe that something such as Disconnecting from a match should be punishable which the OP somewhat said, because I D/C all the time, not purposely, and I dont think I should be punished for d/cing.

People on your team shouldn’t be punished to play in a 4v5 because you disconnect all the time too. If you can’t trust in your internet connection, go play hotjoins. Your problem doesn’t affects only you, but also the other 9 people in the match, and you need to keep this responsibility in mind before joining the queue.

That being said, two days for a single disconnect that last about a minute is too much. I like the idea of the previous post, but 5 minutes is too much. I’d change for 2:30 mins.

Any time there is a 4v5, the team with 5 players should get a prompt – they get 15 seconds for one player to volunteer to sit the match out. If no one volunteers, a player at random is chosen. The player sitting out is automatically awarded the same score as their teams top scored player.

Viola – no more 4v5’s – it’s not a perfect solution, but it’s leagues better than what is in use now (IE, absokitteninglutely nothing), and shouldn’t be hard to implement.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

Unfortunately, you have to make their ratings still adjust, or having someone eat the dishonor to force a 4v5 when a match is going badly would become meta.

That being said, if a match starts and remains 4v5, then you could make it so scores aren’t counted.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

dont let the next dieing player on enemy team respawn so it is a 4v4 – should game end before the 5th is back than the player who could not respawn dont lose rating should his team lose the match

simple

Romek.4201:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

dont let the next dieing player on enemy team respawn so it is a 4v4 – should game end before the 5th is back than the player who could not respawn dont lose rating should his team lose the match

simple

hows that simple? with the current meta of bunkerbunkerbunker someone will just either not die or have to sit in the ‘reserves’ for ages, and not due to something they did themselves.

Dota 2 has a system to punish leavers, there’ll never be a ‘fair’ way to finish the game but at least it stops people constantly leaving.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

From my experience 4 v 5 is basically how most matches end up in anycase, so it wouldn’t impact anything really.

If they go through with this, there won’t really be (m)any ppl left to play spvp/tpvp, which is what makes it an awesome idea, tbh.

I don’t want this to be implemented ever. When playing tpvp with my guild disconnects happen on a daily basis. Being unable to continue playing (waiting 30m.) because someone had unlucky dc at the end of a match is a bad design.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

In this case, assuming the team with 5 wins:

1: The game continues to the end
2: The team with 5 gets full winner rewards and a win for the game
3: The team with 4 gets the loser rewards, but their W-L record and MMR are not impacted
4: The person who left gets no rewards and they get a L and their MMR is impacted

style.6173:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

In this case, assuming the team with 5 wins:

1: The game continues to the end
2: The team with 5 gets full winner rewards and a win for the game
3: The team with 4 gets the loser rewards, but their W-L record and MMR are not impacted
4: The person who left gets no rewards and they get a L and their MMR is impacted

That would not work out because the person who won the game would increase in MMR which would cause inflation issues.

Also, people would be confused with this, they wouldn’t actually realize it is not counting as a loss if they are awarded with loss rewards anyway. It would only be apparent if they made the loss give the team full rewards.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

The problem is, that a pardon for the 4 remaining people would open up a new option to abuse the system. “Ok, this time I take the hit, and go afk, next time it is your turn.” before they loose the game, or have to play against a comp, they’ll most likely loose.

Personal suggestion for SoloQ: League style system; Ready Check at the start including a notification when you are on the desktop (at least a sound option, we can already enable gw2 sound if it runs at the background, so please give us at least an sound warning); And then if you afk/leave the game early/flame too much you loose additional league points;

TeamQ does not need any of this, it should get its own rule set, it does not need a dishonor debuff.

I like the idea of when it’s 5 vs 4, the team with 5 should always have one player stay dead and not respawn until someone else dies (and then they remain dead until someone else dies). It’s not completely fair because some classes can stay alive forever (thieves) but at least it would give the team of 4 some chance.

Some of the objections to this are pure bs. I have played several games with this feature (immediate punishment) and when it was implemented it did not in fact decrease the amount of people queuing for arenas. I am talking about a very small penalty here of a half hour to maybe get people to think twice about loging out of a match which happens all the time. I can honestly say in about a year and a half of doing arenas for myself there have been less then five internet problem related disconnects where I couldn’t get back in before the match ended. That is over thousands of matches over multiple accounts. I have Verizon Fios which I consider fairly average quality internet. If someone has bad enough internet that they are frequently disconnecting where they can’t get back in before a match ends they shouldn’t be played rated arena it really is that simple. The answer is not the status quo.

Also, the answer here is not punishing somebody by making them leave a match to auto balance sides. What if I am doing team arenas with a group? One of us is going to be forced out of a match? That is a ludicrous idea. What if this happens fairly far into the match where my side is up so much its like a 90% probability that we would win. Somebody is going to have a sure win taken away from them? There are no perfect answers to this problem but that does not excuse A-net for not trying something more then just multiple deserting equals a coupe day ban. There needs to be a penalty of some sort EVERY time this happens even if its pretty minor. Enough with the excuses and ignoring the problem.

Sylanna.1947:

I like the idea of when it’s 5 vs 4, the team with 5 should always have one player stay dead and not respawn until someone else dies (and then they remain dead until someone else dies). It’s not completely fair because some classes can stay alive forever (thieves) but at least it would give the team of 4 some chance.

I’ve seen this idea posted before and I want to take a moment to explain the ramifications of this approach and how it can be improved:

The team with 5 players and 1 forced dead player will be put at a disadvantage by the system compared to the team with only 4 players. This is because:

1) If you’re forced to stay dead for an extended period of time, you lose the flow of combat/rotations since you’re stuck at spawn. This will make the team with 5 players suffer since it will create disorganization, especially in SoloQ where 4v5 is the biggest problem and there is a lack of voice communication. This is unfair punishment to the people that showed up to play. The team with 4 players will be able to rotate without losing the flow of combat and have an advantage.

2) This opens up avenues for abuse — make the worst player on your team leave for the chance of getting one of their good players to be locked out of team fights for a while (e.g. their bunker). We don’t want more people abusing the system.

3) It punishes people who showed up to play and wastes their time. Why should players that stayed in the match be penalized for someone else leaving? No one wants to spend the match locked at spawn while others get to play. This also provides quitters with the ability to troll the other team by forcing them into this chaotic rotation of random players being locked out of combat. We do not want quitters to have even more power to ruin matches than they already do.

A solution for SoloQ:
If the game is 4v5 at the start of the match:
Punish the person who did not show up, and kick one person on the opposing team (with the closest MMR to the no-show) back into queue (without penalty). Prevent the 5th person from joining the game. Give the person that was kicked back into queue priority for joining a new match (i.e., reshuffle existing teams in queue) so they don’t have to wait another 5-10 min to play. (This will require an info prompt explaining the reason they were removed from the game). This way teams stay even in average MMR and no one’s time is wasted being locked at spawn/being forced to stay dead.

If a player leaves during the match (in SoloQ only):
When a player from one team leaves for more than 1 minute total (which is enough to cost their team about 30 points in total score at high-end tpvp), prevent them from rejoining, give them a dishonor debuff. This will still allow for switching characters mid-match (which takes about 30s). For the team with 5 players, pop-up the “automatic balancing” prompt that currently exists in hotjoin and ask players to volunteer being locked at spawn for the rest of the match (no rotation possible). Award the volunteer with bonus rank points on top of their teams earned points (+100?) to compensate them for having to sit at spawn not playing the game for the 5-10 min left in the match. If no one volunteers, kick a person from the team with 5 players, and put them into priority queue. If possible, award them with rank points after the match has ended based on their contributions during the time they were in there.

The reason these should be restricted to SoloQ is because you are playing with strangers who may or may not have stable internet connections/computers and may just be trolling. In teamQ it is accepted that you play with an organized premade team that will give you hell if you leave on purpose. Teammates in a premade group are also more understanding of disconnects/crashes since they know each other. Lastly, it will prevent organized abuse of the system from people who know each other.

Taking someone out of the match is fair, but drastic for the person who sits out and doesn’t know if and when they will ever return to the match. They might be tempted to go afk or quit.

Another way to balance the teams is to change the respawn timers. For instance, the team with 4 players has their respawn timer reduced to zero, and the team with 5 players has their respawn timer increased to X seconds. If X is set to the average interval between kills (40 seconds?) then the teams will tend to be equally large.

Would it be ridiculously annoying to just kick everyone out of a match without penalty if it’s anything other than 5v5 30 seconds into the live match? I’ve seen many times people showing up even up to a minute after the match begins so 30s is a decent buffer. The individuals who didn’t show would of course still get dishonorable.

At least the way things are currently with PvP numbers so high, queue pops aren’t that bad. I know it would be aggravating but better than having to endure a 4v5? I think in the end I personally would rather have that. Nothing’s worse than playing a lopsided match.

That, along with maybe decreasing dishonorable to two stacks. DC’d once, yeah it happens. Play other content until you know your connection is stable.

Spin Echo.8263:

Taking someone out of the match is fair, but drastic for the person who sits out and doesn’t know if and when they will ever return to the match. They might be tempted to go afk or quit.

no – because this guy who would have to sit out can´t lsoe anything

when his team wins than fine he get rewards for a win + ranking
when his team lose he get reward for the lose but lose no ranking

win/win

this maby sounds not perfect but it would be the only way to fix the curent system we have and it would be fair for both sides

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

I would like to hear your opinion on the original topic which is a small immediate punishment added to the current system. I am proposing only punishing those people that can’t get back in before the match ends. I feel like you are wasting time debating more complex systems that have 0% chance of every getting in game to avoid implementing something more simple like I proposed that might actually improve things a little bit without really hurting anybody because incorrectly you think what you have now is just fine and dandy. Basically why would you be against slapping a half hour queue ban on anybody that doesn’t finish a arena match the FIRST and EVERY time it happens? I am telling you from years of MMORPG playing experience that random internet problem related disconnects is not an excuse the vast majority of people would be more then happy to once in a blue moon have to wait a half hour to play if they were a victim of a badly timed internet problem disconnect if it could decrease the intentional log outs/quitting during matches by even 10%. You can and should try to do better then the current system. I am telling you I play a lot and the people I play with complain about it ALL the time.

Romek.4201:

no – because this guy who would have to sit out can´t lsoe anything

He loses the time he could’ve spent playing a game, rather than waiting. And waiting is much worse when you don’t know when it will end.

when his team wins than fine he get rewards for a win + ranking
when his team lose he get reward for the lose but lose no ranking

Rewards aren’t everything. In hotjoin, for instance, getting autobalanced means that you automatically get the win rewards. Yet even with the guarantee, it’s rare for anyone to volunteer. Sometimes playing with your team is more important than the rewards.

Let’s not forget that people can still find a way to abuse the system, even if it’s non intentional, there might be that person who is eager to play a match and might be getting real world distractions. So they will go in a match, fight, then stay AFK for < 5 minutes, come back fight a little, AFK for < 5 minutes, thus it’s like playing a 4 man team for most of the match. How can PvP account for that? The way it influences everyone’s contribution must be independent to each player’s contribution to the team, how to quantify this is crucial. What I don’t agree with is that you’d encounter this situation often enough to affect your Leaderboards spot, only because x player decided to ruin your game enough times to deter your status.

Simple – for every match you leave prematurely (or DC out of) – or go AFK in – you have to actively (no DCs, leaves or AFKs) play at least one full match without getting personal rewards or progression of any kind.

So, if you leave a match, you have to actively play your next match to the end before you can play a match for rewards/progression. If you leave that match, you have to actively play your next two matches to the end, etc, etc, etc.

Pyroathiest.4168:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

Unfortunately, you have to make their ratings still adjust, or having someone eat the dishonor to force a 4v5 when a match is going badly would become meta.

That being said, if a match starts and remains 4v5, then you could make it so scores aren’t counted.

So then people who invested time into the match get absolutely nothing? I think the way it is now is fine.

Xbon.9086:

Pyroathiest.4168:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

Unfortunately, you have to make their ratings still adjust, or having someone eat the dishonor to force a 4v5 when a match is going badly would become meta.

That being said, if a match starts and remains 4v5, then you could make it so scores aren’t counted.

So then people who invested time into the match get absolutely nothing? I think the way it is now is fine.

Ideally they make it so that matches are unable to start 4v5, but if for some reason that simple change is beyond them, then they could do it the way I proposed.

Evan Lesh.3295:

In my opinion it is too harsh in the case of false positives. Right now dishonor gives some wiggle room for the people who legitimately disconnect unintentionally. If these people immediately come back into the game and can’t play for 30 minutes, they’ll just quit for the night. That’s not a very good way to treat the players. I feel there are better ways to reduce the number of missing players by having a pre-match ready check, and to reduce the number of quitters by improving matchmaking and incentives to play.

We can only be so strict with our current system as a deterrent before is starts severely affecting the wrong people. Dishonor currently allows 3 leaves every 3 days. To me this feels adequately strict. After putting in preventative measures, I feel the only missing component is a way to determine if people are in a game and intentionally ruining it. Solutions to that problem will always be complicated. Either we have a vote system, or some logic to determine active participation. There is no perfect solution for people being rude.

Who are these people that legit DC once a day? I don’t want to sound like a jerk, but I doubt there are nearly as many that actually have this issue compared to those that abuse the system.

With the current system it’s ok for a person that DC’s a lot to go into PvP and ruin 9 other people’s game once a day. They waste what… 15m x 9 or 2 hours and 15mins of people’s lives… not including que time… every single day. That doesn’t sound like a good/fair system to me when you take that into account.

It seems to me that the current dishonor system would be adequate if matches started 5v5 every time. Rather than punishing people that don’t show up to a match (quite frankly I don’t know if such people are given dishonorable, though I expect people who leave mid-match definitely are), a system wherein no match begins unless all 10 players are present within the PvP map should be used, as it would reduce the number of 4v5 scenarios considerably while maintaining a focus on rewards. Punishments are negative and keep people from fully enjoying the game. If a minute has gone by and a player hasn’t joined yet, the system should simply drop them from the queue and find a replacement, and do so repeatedly until 10 players are present. The player dropped from the queue needn’t be punished for being afk.

Every time there is a discussion about the dishonorable system, I bring up the question "Why reinvent the wheel?! – http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dishonorable " But still, there is no reply from Anet… I guess ignorance really is a bliss.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Let’s assume anyone absent from a match for ‘x’ minutes is considered a disconnect and given dishonor regardless of whether they return. What happens to the 9 other people? Are they forced to play out the rest of the match? Should their ratings be adjust still? What about rewards?

Make the win count for the winning team and the lose for the one with disconnect, but don’t affect the other 4 people! Also have an ingame vote system if someone activly sabotages the game like jumping around the spawn.

Evan Lesh.3295:

In my opinion it is too harsh in the case of false positives.

Sorry for cutting this quote down so much, but to repeat what I said elsewhere:

Screw false positives, you don’t have to worry about them if you deal with this problem outside of the current dishonour system.
Give out proper bans, of at least a week for first offences, for players who can be shown to have been deliberately not contributing (through player reports and chat logs and hopefully relevant match data).
With some actual punishment in place, folks won’t be so ready to afk in ranked matches... and even if someone does mess about, their team can expect something to be done about it. Right now, no matter how many games you report someone in, they’re still going to keep coming back and ruining matches for everyone

Can someone explain to me why we can’t just have a new player replace the one that has left/been disconnected?
Is there something that makes this not possible in the game coding or why can’t this be the solution? No one gets dishonorable, no teams have to suffer a 4v5 and some people will get to join matches already half finished (being prompted before entering that the match has already been started) and everyone’s happy.
I understand completely that leaving a match is rude but the only reason you’re punished for it, as far as I’m concerned, is because you won’t be replaced… Otherwise I see no reason to be locked out of PvP for x amount of time.

It’s like dungeons, really… Sometimes someone disconnects and doesn’t come back, sometimes someone ragequits, sometimes someone just has to leave, etc. etc. and their place is filled. Is the new player upset that the dungeon is already half finished? In my experience, very rarely, if ever.

Would the new player be rewarded for being on a winning team? If so, you might end up with teams creating and selling an opening when on the verge of winning, just like dungeon parties sell openings on the verge of completion. That’s tolerated in PvE, but would be problematic in the leaderboards of PvP.

I’d say no to bringing in new players who disconnect mid-match - most discos are probably unintentional, and the player will be making an effort to get back in. Punish them with dishonour if they’re not back by the end of the game, sure, but don’t fill up their place again. Finding a new player and pulling them into the match and letting them get their bearings? Will probably take as long as most disco’d players take to get back.