Guild Wars 2

I’m just curious if Anet is pleased with the amount of gimmicky builds?

Would you mind defining “gimmicky builds”? It just seems that this kind of terminology is open to a wide variety of interpretation. I mean, most builds that “work” have a sort-of theme about them and some folks might call any kind of theme a sort-of “gimmick”. However, I do not think this is what you mean and I just wanted to try and understand your point of view.

Allarius.5670:

Would you mind defining “gimmicky builds”? It just seems that this kind of terminology is open to a wide variety of interpretation. I mean, most builds that “work” have a sort-of theme about them and some folks might call any kind of theme a sort-of “gimmick”. However, I do not think this is what you mean and I just wanted to try and understand your point of view.

don’t think about this too hard you might strain yourself. OP just means there’s builds that are extremely easy to play and do wayyy too well, especially if you know what you’re doing (looking at condi spamming builds imo)

Are the same people who balanced PvP in GW1 the same that balance GW2? Just out of curiosity.

Gimmick in GW1 was generally a one-trick pony. A build ( or team build ) that was OP if ( Note that “if” please ) all conditions were met that the build required for it to work. Of course, as always, a balanced build/team build should prevail in the long run.

yes, they think that this game have enough diverse build now.

Are you happy with the fact that you’re basically another sheep that follows the herd, and then whenever the herd chooses something, you complain that it chose that particular thing? Maybe if you decided to be original with your build crafting you might shift the meta dramatically.

Arganthium.5638:

Are you happy with the fact that you’re basically another sheep that follows the herd, and then whenever the herd chooses something, you complain that it chose that particular thing? Maybe if you decided to be original with your build crafting you might shift the meta dramatically.

Are you responding to someone in particular? Not trying to be offensive, but your reply is kinda’ random-ish. lol

[Quote of removed posting was removed by Moderator]

All that’s rather irrelevant in my opinion. I wasn’t looking to insult anyone, just asking a question.

As far as his response goes; I think he’s right in a way. We don’t know how long it’s going to be before another balancing patch will hit. I think for those that are tired of the current meta, they need to start re-evaluating current builds, skills, and traits and start coming up with a hard counter-meta for sPvP. To make it easier, someone’s already mentioned a particularly good counter for condition Necro’s, and that’s a Stun-lock Warrior.

That’s obviously just one idea, but the tools are there in-game. Surely those that are still around from GvG, HA, and RA from Guild Wars can figure something out until the anticipated balance patch hits. Even with the limited skills in GW2, we have enough to make a meta, and to counter it forming our own balance. I think it’s just easier to come here, to the forums, and complain about it hoping the Devs will listen and do it for them while possibly getting a buff to their own classes, whatever they may be.

To reiterate what was said in some random 1vs1 thread here: This is a team-based game. Guild Wars was team-based, and so is this one. Even without defined support roles such as healer and protter, there’s still lots of condition removal, heals, prots, and just about everything GW1 had. If you’re running a build with 0 team support skills, you are wrong. Whether it’s SoloQ, TeamQ, WvW, or hot joining, it doesn’t matter unless you’re a solo roamer in WvW.

TL;DR version:

Condition meta is nothing new to the history of Guild Wars. It was a semi-popular build there as well in high-end GvG and was relatively short lived in favor of balanced teams. While some skills were toned down, the overall counter was adapting and prepping for it which, is exactly what people don’t do in GW2.

For your viewing pleasure:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Pressure

I’m pretty sure they are. In fact, think they even suggested it themselves not long ago ?

Why play well if all you need to win (in soloq especially) is to spam and pray? Pray, yes, that your team has more op builds than your opposing team. It’s currently very easy to predict who is going to win and lose before a match even starts, purely based on builds.

When 2 mesmers, 2 eles and 1 warrior face 2 necros, 2 engies and 1 spirit ranger, guess what happens.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Why play well if all you need to win (in soloq especially) is to spam and pray? Pray, yes, that your team has more op builds than your opposing team. It’s currently very easy to predict who is going to win and lose before a match even starts, purely based on builds.

When 2 mesmers, 2 eles and 1 warrior face 2 necros, 2 engies and 1 spirit ranger, guess what happens.

The 2nd team turns out to be a bunch of newbies that don’t know how to fight mesmers and dies

Gimmicks are: Stun/cc-locking, condition spam, AI zerg, invuln/evasion stalling.

These are gimmicks because they’re not fun to play against and have no real counter beyond a 1v1. Let me explain. Stunlock will rarely kill you, as long as you have some defensive measures that don’t even need to be a stun break. Conditions can be purged and managed by a single applicator. AI zerging is just a meatshield, offensive is lacking (shatter mesmers aside). Lastly stallers will have very little damage output as well so that even a glass build can just wait for their CD’s.

The problem arises when you get two or more of these builds, and I mean in a 2v2 situation. It’s a fairly cheap sort of teamwork. Dealing with condition pressure and a staller/meatshield isn’t anyone’s idea of fun. Between purging and actually positioning yourself against the right target you’ll be wasting so much time there’s a chance another of their team mates can come along and heavily swing it. Other than maybe 2 condition spammers you see hugely diminishing returns on having more than one type of that character on your team.

tl:dr Gimmicks are hard to counter, easy to play builds that are no fun to come against.

Copestetic.5174:

Arganthium.5638:

Are you happy with the fact that you’re basically another sheep that follows the herd, and then whenever the herd chooses something, you complain that it chose that particular thing? Maybe if you decided to be original with your build crafting you might shift the meta dramatically.

Are you responding to someone in particular? Not trying to be offensive, but your reply is kinda’ random-ish. lol

Maybe it was just because I was tired, but I wrote in response to the OP. I feel that there are a lot of builds in the meta whose values are overblown because people choose to limit their scope of view simply to those builds by themselves. There are plenty of other equally viable builds, but people like the OP choose to ignore them, or not actually try to make them viable.

Aretak.3826:

Gimmicks are: Stun/cc-locking, condition spam, AI zerg, invuln/evasion stalling.

These are gimmicks because they’re not fun to play against and have no real counter beyond a 1v1. Let me explain. Stunlock will rarely kill you, as long as you have some defensive measures that don’t even need to be a stun break. Conditions can be purged and managed by a single applicator. AI zerging is just a meatshield, offensive is lacking (shatter mesmers aside). Lastly stallers will have very little damage output as well so that even a glass build can just wait for their CD’s.

The problem arises when you get two or more of these builds, and I mean in a 2v2 situation. It’s a fairly cheap sort of teamwork. Dealing with condition pressure and a staller/meatshield isn’t anyone’s idea of fun. Between purging and actually positioning yourself against the right target you’ll be wasting so much time there’s a chance another of their team mates can come along and heavily swing it. Other than maybe 2 condition spammers you see hugely diminishing returns on having more than one type of that character on your team.

tl:dr Gimmicks are hard to counter, easy to play builds that are no fun to come against.

I’ve noticed that more and more lately while playing. I can’t even retreat from a bad situation because of the multiple CC’s that are being thrown around. I wonder if Anet has ever thought about adding diminishing returns to spam CC? I understand that is what stability is for, however you can’t always have stability up. And stability is a must have for pvp, which just goes to the ongoing list of “must haves.” I’m thinking if there wasn’t so many mandatory abilities players have to get in order to pvp at all it might encourage new builds.

Arganthium.5638:

Maybe it was just because I was tired, but I wrote in response to the OP. I feel that there are a lot of builds in the meta whose values are overblown because people choose to limit their scope of view simply to those builds by themselves. There are plenty of other equally viable builds, but people like the OP choose to ignore them, or not actually try to make them viable.

Their value to effective gameplay isn’t really overblown at all. Condition damage is rampant throughout pvp, and it’s not going anywhere (regardless of whatever clever power build someone comes up with) because it’s just a more effective method of damage application with not as much to counter it. Anet’s solution thus far is to slightly buff some condition removal, which does nothing but force players to bring said removal in order to continue to try and compensate for the absurd number of conditions being thrown around, often by one person.

That’s just one example.

Azrayl.4936:

Aretak.3826:

Gimmicks are: Stun/cc-locking, condition spam, AI zerg, invuln/evasion stalling.

These are gimmicks because they’re not fun to play against and have no real counter beyond a 1v1. Let me explain. Stunlock will rarely kill you, as long as you have some defensive measures that don’t even need to be a stun break. Conditions can be purged and managed by a single applicator. AI zerging is just a meatshield, offensive is lacking (shatter mesmers aside). Lastly stallers will have very little damage output as well so that even a glass build can just wait for their CD’s.

The problem arises when you get two or more of these builds, and I mean in a 2v2 situation. It’s a fairly cheap sort of teamwork. Dealing with condition pressure and a staller/meatshield isn’t anyone’s idea of fun. Between purging and actually positioning yourself against the right target you’ll be wasting so much time there’s a chance another of their team mates can come along and heavily swing it. Other than maybe 2 condition spammers you see hugely diminishing returns on having more than one type of that character on your team.

tl:dr Gimmicks are hard to counter, easy to play builds that are no fun to come against.

I’ve noticed that more and more lately while playing. I can’t even retreat from a bad situation because of the multiple CC’s that are being thrown around. I wonder if Anet has ever thought about adding diminishing returns to spam CC? I understand that is what stability is for, however you can’t always have stability up. And stability is a must have for pvp, which just goes to the ongoing list of “must haves.” I’m thinking if there wasn’t so many mandatory abilities players have to get in order to pvp at all it might encourage new builds.

Stun, immobilize and fear in particular are too easy to come by in a game where well timed application of these functions decides games.

Leuca.5732:

Azrayl.4936:

Aretak.3826:

Gimmicks are: Stun/cc-locking, condition spam, AI zerg, invuln/evasion stalling.

These are gimmicks because they’re not fun to play against and have no real counter beyond a 1v1. Let me explain. Stunlock will rarely kill you, as long as you have some defensive measures that don’t even need to be a stun break. Conditions can be purged and managed by a single applicator. AI zerging is just a meatshield, offensive is lacking (shatter mesmers aside). Lastly stallers will have very little damage output as well so that even a glass build can just wait for their CD’s.

The problem arises when you get two or more of these builds, and I mean in a 2v2 situation. It’s a fairly cheap sort of teamwork. Dealing with condition pressure and a staller/meatshield isn’t anyone’s idea of fun. Between purging and actually positioning yourself against the right target you’ll be wasting so much time there’s a chance another of their team mates can come along and heavily swing it. Other than maybe 2 condition spammers you see hugely diminishing returns on having more than one type of that character on your team.

tl:dr Gimmicks are hard to counter, easy to play builds that are no fun to come against.

I’ve noticed that more and more lately while playing. I can’t even retreat from a bad situation because of the multiple CC’s that are being thrown around. I wonder if Anet has ever thought about adding diminishing returns to spam CC? I understand that is what stability is for, however you can’t always have stability up. And stability is a must have for pvp, which just goes to the ongoing list of “must haves.” I’m thinking if there wasn’t so many mandatory abilities players have to get in order to pvp at all it might encourage new builds.

Stun, immobilize and fear in particular are too easy to come by in a game where well timed application of these functions decides games.

I’m all for CC being timed properly in order to win fights, but i don’t like how easy it is for a zerg to just lock down someone just because they outnumber them. Maybe in the grand scheme of pvp it doesn’t matter but for me being a solo player who isn’t with a zerg, it sucks. I can’t even try to see if I have enough skill to take on multiple players because I just get CC to death and can’t react. Like I said, I know if my stability is up it can be ok, but it is just a boon which can be stripped easily.

Azrayl.4936:

I’m all for CC being timed properly in order to win fights, but i don’t like how easy it is for a zerg to just lock down someone just because they outnumber them. Maybe in the grand scheme of pvp it doesn’t matter but for me being a solo player who isn’t with a zerg, it sucks. I can’t even try to see if I have enough skill to take on multiple players because I just get CC to death and can’t react. Like I said, I know if my stability is up it can be ok, but it is just a boon which can be stripped easily.

CC across the board could probably be nerfed a good 33% numerically and it would still be ridiculous. The problem is in frequency of application and/or lack of diminishing return function. The same could be suggested about condition damage as well.