Guild Wars 2

With the addition of Diamond Skin, it appears the developers are moving toward adding hard counters instead of balancing the game with soft counters.

Every class had soft counters before, but they could still be outplayed with good individual play and teamwork. As some videos show, that is not the case for Diamond Skin.

I just did a test with a staff elementalist in berserker gear and water attunement with Soothing Mist and Diamond Skin. He used his water auto-attack; I used my scepter auto-attack. I was downed right as I broke the 90-percent threshold.

I want to clarify two things:

First, what do developers think a necromancer is supposed to do against this build? Right now, the only option is to run without group support. It’s not even possible to stall because the elementalist knows he can go on the full offensive and do more damage as the necromancer flails around helplessly.

Second, are these kinds of hard counters the direction balance is moving toward?

play power or mm biulds then you will have some chances… sadly

condition builds bore me to death. this is just ok. AI and power builds for the win!!!

More AI’s, please.

Muchacho.2390:

play power or mm biulds then you will have some chances… sadly

That’s the point. Is ArenaNet now going into the realm of rock-paper-scissors balance that requires different builds and classes instead of just better individual play and teamwork?

And let’s be honest here: Requiring a necromancer to go minion master or power is a death sentence. It means the necromancer can now be easily replaced with any power build that fits the role much better.

I’m not super impressed with the new diamond skin, but I’m also against overreacting.

Let’s at least try some different stuff, and then, if it doesn’t work, come back and say, “I tried flesh golem, carrion amulet, life blast, axe on swap, wells, minions, and none of it worked.” Instead of just, “I tried 30/20/0/0/20 rabid and it didn’t work.” FYI: 95% of the playerbase hates the 30/20/0/0/20 build and wants it to go away completely. Anet’s just listening to their playerbase, just like they did when we asked for zerker stance, cleansing ire, etc, etc.

Lopez.7369:

It’s not an overreaction. It’s a math problem. Scepter and staff auto-attacks can’t outdamage elementalist’s passive healing, even in carrion gear. Life Blast might be able to dent the elementalist, but it’s not enough to overcome the threshold without a proper power build because of its slow cast time.

The other suggestions you gave are impractical to the point that a necromancer would be better off rerolling.

I fully expect that as well. I’m just saying we should try stuff to confirm that it doesn’t work.

What do you think of 20/20/0/0/30 with carrion and 50% crit in DS? The only difference from the regular build would be the loss of dhuumfire, which honestly isn’t even that great (an extra 100-150 damage per second or so?), and something like 3x the direct damage burst.

I’m not a great necro player so it probably wouldn’t work because I’m probably forgetting something important. I’m not claiming to be a master necro that has the secret to beating a DS ele. But shouldn’t somebody try it? For science?

Stop spamming conditions with your damageless bunker condition build and you can win. It’s not like bringing elementalist down from 100% to 90% is impossible.
Stop whining, and learn to adapt.

I love using grenades on my Engi and not being able to even hit a spirit ranger now because his spirits AoE cap me. kitten this is fun.

Lopez.7369:

More often than not, it’s better to specialize.

I’m all for trying new ideas. I’m going to try Flesh Golem. But I’m pretty certain nothing will work.

Me too. But I think the way it used to be so profitable to “specialize” is what Anet was targeting with this change.

Eles won’t see much more play just because of diamond skin. So there’s basically nothing to be afraid of even if the trait turns out to be OP.

UltraHiDef.4809:

Stop spamming conditions with your damageless bunker condition build and you can win. It’s not like bringing elementalist down from 100% to 90% is impossible.
Stop whining, and learn to adapt.

You’ve missed the point entirely. A condition build simply doesn’t have the damage to keep an elementalist below 90% health. That means either a hybrid or power build is then neccessary. The problem is that the best condition weapons are terrible at direct damage, if you swap out a decent power weapon then you’ve lost some of your conditions. If you’re going to go full power build then you might as well pick a class that does it better.

That’s the problem, in order to adapt to this you toss the necromancer away so it’s not even adapting. I think necros need to get a trait now that reduces all direct damage to 1 when above 90% health and we can see how the other classes “adapt”.

let the ele’s be viable again. they need this. necro has been on top of the food chain far too long.

i wonder if i can play ele well… mmm…

Not a class counter; a build counter. If solo, you can’t go full condition damage. That is a new limitation, but a reasonable one – an end to the condi spam builds, as these forums have called them. If in a group, it changes little- that ele is going to lose that 10% when he’s targeted. It’s not the most elegant of solutions, but we’ve yet to see how the meta shifts.

I wonder how those duels would have ended if the necro would have actually hit the ele instead of giving him his backs all the time XD

BTW, this is a team game, don’t send a condition-only character against a DS ele and you’ll be fine…while he’ll be useless against direct damage oriented chars XD

UltraHiDef.4809:

Stop spamming conditions with your damageless bunker condition build and you can win. It’s not like bringing elementalist down from 100% to 90% is impossible.
Stop whining, and learn to adapt.

No one gives a kitten (at least if they can think) about straight up balance.
Yes the skill is not OP, it is actually rather under powered.

Tragically…
A game being worth playing is based on its gameplay… not just balance… this skill is useless when it isn’t faceroll OP.
That is bad.
That is so very bad.

Faceroll OP ever, from any means (like CC-warriors, S/D thief, or conditions) is always bad and it has been constantly crippling GW2, adding another means to that end, even if it is overall ‘balanced’ is only suffocating this already throttled game.

All I can do is laugh at these patch notes.
Like, they are verbatum what the devs said a month or two ago… verbatum the things EVERYONE and their mother can see are bad changes.

What.
The.
kitten.

Like with the ranger, they seriously think the reason no one takes Bark skin is because the dmg mitigation is too low…
Seriously???
The class is a sustain class so is desperate for condi removal.
The only good condi remove in the class is a tier 3 trait taking the same spot
Surprise, surprise, next to every ranger spec needs the condi remove so can’t take bark-skin…

By buffing bark-skin to the point its worth considering you only make even more hard-counters… you will just end up with some rangers who hardcore beat the kitten out of physical dmg specs (barkskin stacks with protection for a nice passive 83% dmg mitigation on a class with tons of self-healing) yet die like kittenes to condis…
How is that good?
In any way??

They seem intent on making this game unplayable.
I sware, it was better in beta.

Valentin.2073:

let the ele’s be viable again. they need this. necro has been on top of the food chain far too long.

i wonder if i can play ele well… mmm…

No, this won’t make eles nowhere near viable, the trait sucks. It makes eles a no skill hard counter to necros, but also makes them absolute crap against power builds because eles will have an useless 30 point trait investment against power builds. This is just bad game design. Its complete rock paper scissors and a perfect example of why good players quit this game. This trait is just complete awful. There is nothing a necro can do against this, no matter how bad the ele is, the ele will win this match up.

UltraHiDef.4809:

Stop spamming conditions with your damageless bunker condition build and you can win. It’s not like bringing elementalist down from 100% to 90% is impossible.
Stop whining, and learn to adapt.

We are going to adapt just like all the Eles had to before: by rerolling to Warrior.

Its okay ANet, we finally got the message, we’re all rerolling to Warrior now.

Bhawb.7408:

UltraHiDef.4809:

Stop spamming conditions with your damageless bunker condition build and you can win. It’s not like bringing elementalist down from 100% to 90% is impossible.
Stop whining, and learn to adapt.

We are going to adapt just like all the Eles had to before: by rerolling to Warrior.

Its okay ANet, we finally got the message, we’re all rerolling to Warrior now.

this made my day. thanks for the laugh.

ahuba.6430:

Valentin.2073:

let the ele’s be viable again. they need this. necro has been on top of the food chain far too long.

i wonder if i can play ele well… mmm…

No, this won’t make eles nowhere near viable, the trait sucks. It makes eles a no skill hard counter to necros, but also makes them absolute crap against power builds because eles will have an useless 30 point trait investment against power builds. This is just bad game design. Its complete rock paper scissors and a perfect example of why good players quit this game. This trait is just complete awful. There is nothing a necro can do against this, no matter how bad the ele is, the ele will win this match up.

even if i use a MM build?

Proof that Diamond Skin changed nothing:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Class-Tier-List-Post-December-10th-Patch/first

Wintel.4873:

Proof that Diamond Skin changed nothing:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Class-Tier-List-Post-December-10th-Patch/first

That’s proof of nothing.

This is why we cant have nice things (dueling).

Happy family friendly repost so as not to hurt the delicate:

LOL

As much as I can’t ignore the element of schadenfreude, this trait is looking pretty dumb. No skill needed hard counters are dumb and they are bad. A competitive game should showcase skill and decision making in battle – not whether or not you rolled the right class with the build that just happens to hard counter your enemy. The trait is also nearly useless if your opponent isn’t relying on conditions to fight you. It isn’t the only trait like this, but it’s still pretty silly. Feel like a boss against condi abusing classes – feel like you wasted a trait against anything else.

But whatever, this game doesn’t look like it’s improving any time soon.

Valentin.2073:

ahuba.6430:

Valentin.2073:

let the ele’s be viable again. they need this. necro has been on top of the food chain far too long.

i wonder if i can play ele well… mmm…

No, this won’t make eles nowhere near viable, the trait sucks. It makes eles a no skill hard counter to necros, but also makes them absolute crap against power builds because eles will have an useless 30 point trait investment against power builds. This is just bad game design. Its complete rock paper scissors and a perfect example of why good players quit this game. This trait is just complete awful. There is nothing a necro can do against this, no matter how bad the ele is, the ele will win this match up.

even if i use a MM build?

i think its pretty obvious i was talking about the condi meta necromancer….

Diamond Skin is just one of those things that bums me out. I don’t even play necro, but it’s just such terrible design and a boring passive that I lose some interest in the game…

Ill admit that the trait is a kinda annoying to play against on my engie, haven’t tried my ranger yet.

ahuba.6430:

Valentin.2073:

ahuba.6430:

Valentin.2073:

let the ele’s be viable again. they need this. necro has been on top of the food chain far too long.

i wonder if i can play ele well… mmm…

No, this won’t make eles nowhere near viable, the trait sucks. It makes eles a no skill hard counter to necros, but also makes them absolute crap against power builds because eles will have an useless 30 point trait investment against power builds. This is just bad game design. Its complete rock paper scissors and a perfect example of why good players quit this game. This trait is just complete awful. There is nothing a necro can do against this, no matter how bad the ele is, the ele will win this match up.

even if i use a MM build?

i think its pretty obvious i was talking about the condi meta necromancer….

why are you so grumpy? lmao

i was just asking a question. it doesn’t hurt to be friendly sometimes.

Distaste.4801:

UltraHiDef.4809:

Stop spamming conditions with your damageless bunker condition build and you can win. It’s not like bringing elementalist down from 100% to 90% is impossible.
Stop whining, and learn to adapt.

You’ve missed the point entirely. A condition build simply doesn’t have the damage to keep an elementalist below 90% health. That means either a hybrid or power build is then neccessary. The problem is that the best condition weapons are terrible at direct damage, if you swap out a decent power weapon then you’ve lost some of your conditions. If you’re going to go full power build then you might as well pick a class that does it better.

That’s the problem, in order to adapt to this you toss the necromancer away so it’s not even adapting. I think necros need to get a trait now that reduces all direct damage to 1 when above 90% health and we can see how the other classes “adapt”.

Eliminating 100% condition/bunker specs from the game is a necessary step to making the game competitive. Auto-attacking to stack passive conditions is not good for the game.

Forcing players to go hybrid or sacrifice their bunker for power in condi specs is absolutely what the game needs.

Theres no such thing as a hard counter in 5v5. It’s build wars for a reason, pick a different class. This game is not meant to be balanced around 1v1 in the slightest.

You mean to tell me that getting an ele down to 90% hp is difficult? You must be really bad.

Errant Venture.9371:

Eliminating 100% condition/bunker specs from the game is a necessary step to making the game competitive. Auto-attacking to stack passive conditions is not good for the game.

Forcing players to go hybrid or sacrifice their bunker for power in condi specs is absolutely what the game needs.

Wholeheartedly agree with this.

Deli.1302:

You mean to tell me that getting an ele down to 90% hp is difficult? You must be really bad.

It is when you deal about 200 damage every 3/4 seconds and the ele is constantly regenerating about 400 health/second. Necro scepter does very, very little direct damage and the staff can be avoided entirely by just changing the direction of your strafe.

Amitabh Bachan.4385:

Theres no such thing as a hard counter in 5v5. It’s build wars for a reason, pick a different class. This game is not meant to be balanced around 1v1 in the slightest.

Im hoping that one day Anet gets around to making 1v1/2v2/3v3 arenas, then finally they might address some of the ridiculousness that can happen in 1v1s. The unfun hard counters, the bunkervbunkers matchups that never end, mesmer stealth cheese, stun/regen cheese, etc

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

It is when you deal about 200 damage every 3/4 seconds and the ele is constantly regenerating about 400 health/second. Necro scepter does very, very little direct damage and the staff can be avoided entirely by just changing the direction of your strafe.

I think the point was more to use other weapons…

Vena.8436:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

It is when you deal about 200 damage every 3/4 seconds and the ele is constantly regenerating about 400 health/second. Necro scepter does very, very little direct damage and the staff can be avoided entirely by just changing the direction of your strafe.

I think the point was more to use other weapons…

So a Necro is now forced to use an Axe, which is the worst weapon in its kitten nal…?

Errant Venture.9371:

Eliminating 100% condition/bunker specs from the game is a necessary step to making the game competitive. Auto-attacking to stack passive conditions is not good for the game.

Forcing players to go hybrid or sacrifice their bunker for power in condi specs is absolutely what the game needs.

Yes that is a problem, no this isn’t a solution.

People hate condi-bunkers because they are exceedingly stale to fight.
You do not fix that by making traits that are even more stale to play…

That just ends with even worse gameplay, which is entirely counter-productive.

Amitabh Bachan.4385:

Theres no such thing as a hard counter in 5v5. It’s build wars for a reason, pick a different class. This game is not meant to be balanced around 1v1 in the slightest.

You are thinking about GW1 where fights are full team v team engagements.
GW2 is nothing like that.
GW2 has one if not two dedicated 1v1 positions (close point bunker and far point roamer)…

Whether or not Anet thinks the game should be balanced around 1v1s, they are and, in this conquest, will always be a large part of the game.

Vena.8436:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

It is when you deal about 200 damage every 3/4 seconds and the ele is constantly regenerating about 400 health/second. Necro scepter does very, very little direct damage and the staff can be avoided entirely by just changing the direction of your strafe.

I think the point was more to use other weapons…

Ahh, so one of those that thinks condition builds shouldn’t exist. Got it.

If a Warrior wants a ranged weapon to deal condition damage, he doesn’t choose the Rifle (despite the bleeds on the auto). He chooses the Longbow. Likewise, he chooses the sword, not the axe for melee. If he wanted power, those choices would be reversed. To do otherwise is fighting your build, not using it.

Using Axe or Dagger for a condition nerco is the same way. The skills on those weapons do not help the necro accomplish what he wants to, as neither one brings terribly useful conditions (axe cripple can also be gotten via scepter 2). Yes, a necro could bring an axe to deal with an Ele running this trait, but he is severely gimping himself on what is, essentially, a crapshoot. Then there is the fact that the axe wouldn’t accomplish anything anyway as the ele would dodge the channeled #2, and thus any shot the necro has at getting them below that 90% threshold in a condi build (the auto attack does horrid damage).

I won’t comment on other classes, as I am not familiar enough with their builds, though I know Thief, Ele, and Guardian don’t really have a viable condition spec (Guardians likely never will).

Diamond Skin is a bad trait because it is too binary. It is either completely useless (against any power build) or turns the fight into a one-sided slaughter (against most condition builds). If it did something else against conditions (for example, negating condition damage, but still allowing for the conditions themselves), it would be a better trait. A condition build would still have difficulties getting that 10% health down due to the pathetic direct damage, but it would at least be able to counterplay the ele to some degree.

The trait needs to get reworked ASAP into something less binary (preferably some benefit against physical attacks as well). I am fine with eles getting some extra defense against conditions, especially from a grandmaster trait, but this was definitely the wrong way to do it. No matter what, someone is not having fun because of this trait as it is now, whether it’s because they spent 30 points for a trait that does not matter, or because their entire build is shut down entirely by this trait.

Errant Venture.9371:

Eliminating 100% condition/bunker specs from the game is a necessary step to making the game competitive. Auto-attacking to stack passive conditions is not good for the game.

Forcing players to go hybrid or sacrifice their bunker for power in condi specs is absolutely what the game needs.

Why are auto-attacking power specs better than auto-attacking condi specs?

Vena.8436:

I think the point was more to use other weapons…

Yes, let me just throw my dagger onto my condi build, that will definitely make things all kind of better. Hell while I’m at it I’ll just respect completely to power. But why stop there? Why would I play power Necro, when I could just reroll to Warrior?

Hard counters to an entire type of build should not exist. It isn’t an issue of a slight change to a build. Necros can’t just add in a utility skill to deal better direct damage to get them low. Even Flesh Golem makes it painfully obvious how difficult it is to deal with this.

And it isn’t a problem to just Necros. This was an issue when Necros were too strong, if you ever actually paid attention, most real necros hated that patch and what it did to us. We are not happy with where the class is, we didn’t like that we were too good. But not for a kitten second did we ever have a matchup where the other person had absolutely not a single chance of winning no matter what they did.

Hard counters should not exist (at all) in game that is supposedly even remotely skill based. If you want counters, go play Pokemon.

Bhawb.7408:

Hard counters to an entire type of build should not exist. It isn’t an issue of a slight change to a build. Necros can’t just add in a utility skill to deal better direct damage to get them low. Even Flesh Golem makes it painfully obvious how difficult it is to deal with this.

Builds that can murder people with 1-spam condition pressure while wearing tank gear, shouldn’t exist.

Bhawb.7408:

Hard counters should not exist (at all) in game that is supposedly even remotely skill based. If you want counters, go play Pokemon.

One dimensions builds will always have “hard” counters because they have no variety of pressure.

You know… just like in MtG.

I just want to put this here for perspective, since this thread seems to have more reasonable discussion.

jmatb.6307:

jmatb.6307:

So much terribad from the Suckromancer community

Yall just go back to your class forum and hug your ugly minions until they slap you in the face enough to realize that your class does not revolve around condis

I’ll be sure to do that on the day thieves admit their class doesn’t revolve around stealth and are willing to accept a trait that nullifies all damage from stealthed enemies above 90% health. As far as I’m aware, that would fix all “8k Backstab” problems, and would also nerf the Thief’s kiting capacity to the same level as invalidating a Necro’s cripple, chill and fear.

Vena.8436:

Bhawb.7408:

Hard counters to an entire type of build should not exist. It isn’t an issue of a slight change to a build. Necros can’t just add in a utility skill to deal better direct damage to get them low. Even Flesh Golem makes it painfully obvious how difficult it is to deal with this.

Builds that can murder people with 1-spam condition pressure while wearing tank gear, shouldn’t exist.

Bhawb.7408:

Hard counters should not exist (at all) in game that is supposedly even remotely skill based. If you want counters, go play Pokemon.

One dimensions builds will always have “hard” counters because they have no variety of pressure.

You know… just like MotG.

I play a tanky power build on my Necro. Dagger/WH + Staff. How am I supposed to even catch said Ele if I can’t Chill/Fear/Cripple/Immobilize him at the start of the fight because of Diamond Skin? You forget, we are specifically designed to not have mobility. If the Ele Dodges Dark Path I’m pretty well SoL. Staff auto is too slow to hit anything moving, and Life Blasting does poor damage and drains life force we need to survive when the burst comes.

How do I get to the guy to hit him to get him below 90%?

Vena.8436:

Builds that can murder people with 1-spam condition pressure while wearing tank gear, shouldn’t exist.

I have been asking for nerfs and changes to the Dhuumfire patch Necro since it happened. So has a large number of the Necro community. Those who haven’t only haven’t because not a kitten other build is realistically viable at high level. Don’t act like just because I’m on the class that I defend us blindly and never ask for nerfs.

Anyone else isn’t a Necro, they’re just players who jumped on ship, and have likely moved back to Warrior.

What Bhawb said. I’m waiting for the day when Necro can feasibly build for power/attrition and keep enemies from just running away if they start losing. Buff lifesteal/life force generation and our anti-disengage skills and maybe you’ll see Necros shift to other areas of play. Currently Axe does pathetic damage and Dagger (even before Diamond Skin) is too difficult to keep on top of enemies that try to kite and stay alive against other melee builds. Give us some other options and you can throw Dhuumfire out with last week’s casserole.

Draehl.2681:

What Bhawb said. I’m waiting for the day when Necro can feasibly build for power/attrition and keep enemies from just running away if they start losing. Buff lifesteal/life force generation and our anti-disengage skills and maybe you’ll see Necros shift to other areas of play. Currently Axe does pathetic damage and Dagger (even before Diamond Skin) is too difficult to keep on top of enemies that try to kite and stay alive against other melee builds. Give us some other options and you can throw Dhuumfire out with last week’s casserole.

Exactly. Reasonable people don;t want to win all fights via OP condition builds – we want to have everything be somewhat even and have skill intensive fights. But we also don’t want to have zero viable builds, so until Power Necros get buffed, OP Condi is all we have.

Errant Venture.9371:

Eliminating 100% condition/bunker specs from the game is a necessary step to making the game competitive. Auto-attacking to stack passive conditions is not good for the game.

Auto-attacking as a main/important source of damage (of any kind) is in and off itself a terrible idea, and not exactly good for the game, but hey.

Errant Venture.9371:

Forcing players to go hybrid or sacrifice their bunker for power in condi specs is absolutely what the game needs.

That, and many, many other things, yes.

Imo diamd skin should half conditions in duration, but above 75% health. Also put it in master instead of grandmaster, you just have to sacrifice too much for it to be viable.

This is the most idiotic thread I have ever read.

THIS THREAD. THIS THREAD RIGHT HERE.

Please take note, anet. I am so sick of walking about on my engineer, seeing a necromancer, and thinking “Welp, that fight’s not going to be won, call for help and play to delay” and on the flipside seeing an ele or thief and thinking “Well, this shouldn’t take long, probably won’t even have to blow any cooldowns”. It’s not a good fight.

Skill>Counters, please.

So, admittedly I don’t play any PvP. But after that video, I have a question. If an elementalist starts off as being completely immune to conditions, how is a necromancer supposed to get to him? Like, if I wanted to attack the highly mobile elementalist with daggers or axe… how would I close the gap? Would that reasonably be even possible?

Writetyper.1985:

THIS THREAD. THIS THREAD RIGHT HERE.

Please take note, anet. I am so sick of walking about on my engineer, seeing a necromancer, and thinking “Welp, that fight’s not going to be won, call for help and play to delay” and on the flipside seeing an ele or thief and thinking “Well, this shouldn’t take long, probably won’t even have to blow any cooldowns”. It’s not a good fight.

Skill>Counters, please.

Thief does not hard counter necro.