Guild Wars 2

This is something that has been bothering me a lot lately.
Some matchups are just ridicolously broken and even if you play very well, as long as the other person has the right build he will beat you.

For me in particular those are:

Any rabid amulett / condition burst build (not sure about carrion ranger with spirit rezz)

vs

necromancer(in particular 30/20/0/0/20 with staff + scepter dagger+plague signet)

Its a completely broken matchup – the necromancer literally just has to wait for either burn procs into instant fear or till he gets hit with enemy condition to reflect them and cause huge spikes. In addition to that consume conditions is a full condi cleanse on pretty low cd + shroudform gives the necro access to a very noticably bigger healthpool which is very good against condi with fixed damage. Id even go so far as to say that focusing a necromancer with condition pressure in a teamfight is detrimental to your team unless you know EXACTLY that all his reflects are on cd.

Against engineer(and other classes as well) you can also add signet of spite. Once you get hit by that its impossible to cleanse ANY damage condition (because of cleanse priority and lack of mass cleanses on engineer(elixir C is still dumb unless u really want to hardcouner with AR)) until spite pretty much ran out so all the bleed stacks and burn procs and poison are secure

On the other hand fotm Hambow warrior

vs

Necromancer

Is completely broken for the warrior with his abundance of CC and the lack of dodges on necro. + all the cleanses (F1 on very low cd + cleansing ire) and the direct damage warrior puts out + his stances that pretty much give him 20 second+ immunity (+lyssa) against fear which is just horrendous for terror necro.

As far as i have heard Mesmer vs Thief would be another extremely imbalanced matchup favoring the thief with his massive mobility and damage output against a serker light armor class. Also its really easy for the thief to avoid shatters especially with sword mainhand. I tried it once against a good mesmer and i literally just had to stick on him and autoattack dodge rolling on occasion. But i dont play neither thief or mesmer very much so i really wouldnt know.

The issue i have with these imbalanced matchups is that it forces the game into build wars 2. You bring 2 necros? ok i log on warrior.

This is an issue that affects all PvP (and WvW shudder) content. So please dont jsut give the generic “we will fix class balance in soloq” response. (Actually i think that forcing class balance on teams allows for exploiting by logging on certain classes.

Hardcounters cause the game to take less and less skill and depend more and more on setups. Please rework massive 1v1 class imbalances. Even if the game is being balanced around 5v5 + nodes.

Feel free to add other matchups which are extremely one sided and explain why but use tournament play as a basis. (Turret Engi is pretty good in ANY 1v1 but thats not the point)

Just no

/15char

Surreal.5243:

Just no

/15char

why not?

You favor build wars 2 over actual gameplay?

Those match ups arent that bad. You can still win if you are better…although sure its a disadvantage.

What will be bad is any rabid/settlers build (so almost the only viable ranger, necro and engi builds) vs diamond skin ele. Then you literally do have 0 chance. Even a rank 5 ele will destroy you. Everyone good at the game told anet not to put in more bs like diamond skin, but anet dont care. They just listen to baddies

Lordrosicky.5813:

Those match ups arent that bad. You can still win if you are better…although sure its a disadvantage.

What will be bad is any rabid/settlers build (so almost the only viable ranger, necro and engi builds) vs diamond skin ele. Then you literally do have 0 chance. Even a rank 5 ele will destroy you. Everyone good at the game told anet not to put in more bs like diamond skin, but anet dont care. They just listen to baddies

i feel like engineer has better options to burst down that critical amount of hp even with rabid and ranger always has his pet at least and dodge+settlers rangers shouldnt dps anyway (trap ranger is really meh against it though) – necro on the other hand doesnt have that (unless you get elite and its not even that good) – best chance vs AR is a lucky burn proc into fear right before 25%

So diamond skin might not be thaaaat much of an issue for engineer depending on how much hp + burst ele will be able to stack

But overall i agree – flat immunity is not good game design and if you have little options to adjust it can be very frustrating. (again with ele its really not that much hp and eles will have to counterheal a lot depending on what stats they will actually be able to get with it – we’ll see)

Also i really dont feel that there is much room to outplay your opponent in these matchups (again unless you go out of your way to counter them to begin with) Everyone is invited to play me on whatever he thinks is actually balanced even though i dont play these classes lot i am very likely to win anyway.

the only thing i want to see changed here is that the matchups are a little bit more fair..ofc thief will always have an advantage but to make it possible for a mesmer to have a chance vs a thief that is as good as the mesmer or worse

Diamond skin is supposed to be good vs ranger? Ever consider we have a pet that does direct dmg? After spirit nerf people will play power or bm so don’t have any worried about those immunity above x traits.

Sensotix.4106:

the only thing i want to see changed here is that the matchups are a little bit more fair..ofc thief will always have an advantage but to make it possible for a mesmer to have a chance vs a thief that is as good as the mesmer or worse

I think it’s more worse in the vein of Ranger (Spirit and BM) and Necro vs Mesmer in terms of hard counters.

Thief vs Mes as Glass v Glass is prob one of the most fair match ups that can go any way in a moments notice. (Sword/Dagger aside) I think they are one of the most intense and fun fights.

Necro vs. Warri fair matchup

Mesmer vs. Thief fair matchup

at least when it comes to 1v1 sitiuations. And i can’t even emphasize enough that you can’t adapt 1v1 balance to tPvP balance. This is a whole different thing and people bringing 1v1 arguments in tpvp balance discussions just don’t know kitten. Balancing around 1v1 is just the most stupid thing you can do so stop crying for it…

This game should be balanced around teamplay. Unfortunately anet didn’t get this and guys crying for 1v1 balance neither. If you want fair 1v1s go play a kittening Egoshooter or some kitten like that…

peace

Lordrosicky.5813:

What will be bad is any rabid/settlers build (so almost the only viable ranger, necro and engi builds) vs diamond skin ele. Then you literally do have 0 chance. Even a rank 5 ele will destroy you. Everyone good at the game told anet not to put in more bs like diamond skin, but anet dont care. They just listen to baddies

I didn’t know 1 change deep into a trait-line that no Ele currently goes into means that the entire class changes. I highly recommend you actually PLAY as an Ele before spouting nonsense, so you at least know what it’s like to have the lowest health/toughness out of any class, track 15 different double-layered cooldowns, almost zero build flexibility and have all your survivability tied to dodging (something that everyone else can do as well). Maybe then you’ll realize that Diamond Skin change is almost irrelevant because of how much the Ele has to sacrifice to get it, and royally screw themselves against any build that can deal the slightest amount of direct damage.

Surreal.5243:

Necro vs. Warri fair matchup

Mesmer vs. Thief fair matchup

at least when it comes to 1v1 sitiuations. And i can’t even emphasize enough that you can’t adapt 1v1 balance to tPvP balance. This is a whole different thing and people bringing 1v1 arguments in tpvp balance discussions just don’t know kitten. Balancing around 1v1 is just the most stupid thing you can do so stop crying for it…

I agree, but not 100%…

With conquest mode it’s going to happen. Teams will lose a point unless they get back up in 1v1 scenarios. So I think 1v1 matters, though not as much as some people make it out to be.

Hardcounters make this over all unhealthy when trying to achieve balance in this game type (conquest) especially for 5v5. Guaranteed push off points add a team tactical sense. But then scraps the individual skill vs skill, which I personally don’t think is good for longevity.

Counters are fine in fact I think it’s great and makes the game feel dynamic. However I think balance should strive for soft counters not rock, paper, scissor level hard counters, where positioning determines what beats what.

50/50 is impossible and dumb to shoot for. 40/60 – 45/55 is however much better and healthier than 70/30 or 80/20.

The OP isn’t asking for 1v1 balance. A hambow warrior can still kick a conditionmancer’s back side even in a team fight at least eight times out of ten. Please don’t confuse the issue of “hard counters” with the issue of “1v1 balance”. Even though I have to say 1v1 situations are all over the place in tournaments, this isn’t what is being discussed here.
Being a hard-counter to something isn’t really an issue on its own. But it becomes an issue when you are generally good in most situations and still can hard-counter certain builds. The warrior being a hard counter to condimancer would have been OK if the warrior would have had to sacrifice a lot to reach that point. But currently, this isn’t the case. Necro being able to counter many things would have been OK if they had more weaknesses than just the current meta warrior.
Hard counters of this nature are detrimental to the notion of GW2 pvp which revolves around player skill + coordination + tactics and shifts it more towards battle of team builds and gives rise to the mostly non-intuitive meta that we have on our hands today.

Wintel.4873:

I didn’t know 1 change deep into a trait-line that no Ele currently goes into means that the entire class changes. I highly recommend you actually PLAY as an Ele before spouting nonsense, so you at least know what it’s like to have the lowest health/toughness out of any class, track 15 different double-layered cooldowns, almost zero build flexibility and have all your survivability tied to dodging (something that everyone else can do as well). Maybe then you’ll realize that Diamond Skin change is almost irrelevant because of how much the Ele has to sacrifice to get it, and royally screw themselves against any build that can deal the slightest amount of direct damage.

I am not very familiar with eles, but I’m gonna assume that your analysis is true. If so, then that’s an example of how hard counters should be (even if they are meant to exist in the game). If an ele has to kitten itself in many areas to reach that level, then it’s totally OK. They have to take a huge risk to heavily counter something. On the other hand, if an ability like this comes in naturally and effortlessly to an elementalist, it’s going to turn into another meta/power creep issue that warriors currently have.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Those match ups arent that bad. You can still win if you are better…although sure its a disadvantage.

What will be bad is any rabid/settlers build (so almost the only viable ranger, necro and engi builds) vs diamond skin ele. Then you literally do have 0 chance. Even a rank 5 ele will destroy you. Everyone good at the game told anet not to put in more bs like diamond skin, but anet dont care. They just listen to baddies

Without AR, a rabid engineer has to be absolutely perfect to beat a rabid necro, and the necro has to mess up multiple times in a row. Using AR, it’s like you describe: winnable, but at a disadvantage.

I agree with the OP. Other pretty uneven matchups have been s/d thief vs. ele/mesmer, bomb/nade engi vs. thief, warrior vs. spirit ranger, spirit ranger vs. ele.

I think this patch is going to be good. We’ll see how it looks when the dust settles, but it’s the correct approach: multiple balance changes at the same time to redesign matchups. Diamond skin is a little concerning but people have essentially been asking for rabid builds to go away completely for a long time. Maybe they will. I think that it’s good that people are going to have to theorycraft after the 10th.

Burjis.3087:

The OP isn’t (((only))) asking for 1v1 balance. A hambow warrior can still kick a conditionmancer’s back side even in a team fight at least nine times out of ten.

fixed and reposted 4 emphasis – exactly! what is the necro supposed to do snare and CC the warrior? dodge all attacks ?

same with necro condi reflect in teamfights

and same with thief and mesm unless the team peels fast

does engi AR have internal cooldown?

30—-

gesho.9468:

does engi AR have internal cooldown?

---

30—-

No. It’s impossible to apply conditions to an engineer using the trait when he’s below about 4500 health. The trait does not remove any conditions, so any conditions that hit the engineer while he was above 4500 health will continue to tick away.

It’s kind of goofy, really. The engineer is at a massive disadvantage vs. a necro most of the time, but a single trait turns the tables at 25% health. It’s not exactly hard for a necro to chain fear an engineer from about 30%-0%, but it does make necro/engi fights pretty strange. I’d trade AR away in a heartbeat (which is easy for me to say, since I don’t use it) for a better matchup between the two professions overall.

OK GUISE LISSEN

- STOP WRITE POST COS LOT PAGES + PPL NNED TO CALM DOWN
-LISSEN GOODE

Certain matchups will always be difficult.

Necro will always be the best in a condition vs condition fight. And they kitten well better be, seeing as the entire class is based around Death Shroud and conditions. Without being the best condition class, they’re a giant useless HP bar. Its an issue of a major mechanic of how the Necro class works (being the best at conditions) being a strong counter to other players.

Guys listen to Omar Liitle he knows his shiz lol

NevirSayDie.6235:

No. It’s impossible to apply conditions to an engineer using the trait when he’s below about 4500 health. The trait does not remove any conditions, so any conditions that hit the engineer while he was above 4500 health will continue to tick away.

It’s kind of goofy, really. The engineer is at a massive disadvantage vs. a necro most of the time, but a single trait turns the tables at 25% health. It’s not exactly hard for a necro to chain fear an engineer from about 30%-0%, but it does make necro/engi fights pretty strange. I’d trade AR away in a heartbeat (which is easy for me to say, since I don’t use it) for a better matchup between the two professions overall.

how bout elixir c on the top of it? is el c available when feared?
how do u 1v1 necros with condi engi?

The dudes completely right. Certain builds absolutely hard counter others. I like to play all melee ranger from time to time and if I see a d/p thief coming, I will 100% lose. My skill level does not matter, his skill level does not matter. I will always lose because of all the blinds and that fact that 4s is too little a time to allow me to get shots off before stealths + more blinds.

But then, as I swap to sb/lb, I will literally win 100% of the time as my attacks are rapid, do not require melee range, track through stealth, and can interrupt his leaps.

i dont mind paper, scissors rock. id love to see this ideall world, where each class have different gameplay, and each can win against each, both 1vq 1 or equally good at teamfight, equally good at capping, killing, etc, etc, but this strategy of equality in everything quickly becomes unreallistic. else its all homogenised, one class with different avatars and spell names. if anything, id like more of it.

universally (or against significant majority of builds) op is a problem (warrior), but rock paper scissor is fine.

gesho.9468:

NevirSayDie.6235:

No. It’s impossible to apply conditions to an engineer using the trait when he’s below about 4500 health. The trait does not remove any conditions, so any conditions that hit the engineer while he was above 4500 health will continue to tick away.

It’s kind of goofy, really. The engineer is at a massive disadvantage vs. a necro most of the time, but a single trait turns the tables at 25% health. It’s not exactly hard for a necro to chain fear an engineer from about 30%-0%, but it does make necro/engi fights pretty strange. I’d trade AR away in a heartbeat (which is easy for me to say, since I don’t use it) for a better matchup between the two professions overall.

how bout elixir c on the top of it? is el c available when feared?
how do u 1v1 necros with condi engi?

Fortunately, you rarely have to. A meta engineer meeting a meta necro on a sidepoint for a 1v1 doesn’t actually happen that often.

Elixir C has a cast time and cannot be used while under a cc effect. It is a nice skill that will undo one mistake vs. a necro (i.e. eating a signet of spite or corrupt boon) but that’s it. It’s the flips that are so hard to deal with.

If I’m in a tournament match, there’s no way I’ll let myself fall into a 1v1 with a necro (if I’m playing a meta build, that is…power builds and my awkward homemade bunker builds do pretty well vs. necros). It would be worse than a spirit ranger assaulting far point against a hammer warrior.

Sometimes I’ll do 1v1s vs. necros in hotjoins for practice. I’ll smoke bomb—>shield+acid leap to open from stealth, shamelessly blow supply crate off the bat, and try to keep them cc’d for the entire fight. If they’re not bad, they’ll use ds/spectral armor and then even after blowing them up at the start of the fight I’ll have to kite/los for my life.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Fortunately, you rarely have to. A meta engineer meeting a meta necro on a sidepoint for a 1v1 doesn’t actually happen that often.

Elixir C has a cast time and cannot be used while under a cc effect. It is a nice skill that will undo one mistake vs. a necro (i.e. eating a signet of spite or corrupt boon) but that’s it. It’s the flips that are so hard to deal with.

If I’m in a tournament match, there’s no way I’ll let myself fall into a 1v1 with a necro (if I’m playing a meta build, that is…power builds and my awkward homemade bunker builds do pretty well vs. necros). It would be worse than a spirit ranger assaulting far point against a hammer warrior.

Sometimes I’ll do 1v1s vs. necros in hotjoins for practice. I’ll smoke bomb—>shield+acid leap to open from stealth, shamelessly blow supply crate off the bat, and try to keep them cc’d for the entire fight. If they’re not bad, they’ll use ds/spectral armor and then even after blowing them up at the start of the fight I’ll have to kite/los for my life.

:sad:
:D

Sensotix.4106:

the only thing i want to see changed here is that the matchups are a little bit more fair..ofc thief will always have an advantage but to make it possible for a mesmer to have a chance vs a thief that is as good as the mesmer or worse

I won a soloq game last night having 2 mesmers, 1 ele, 1 thief, 1 engi on my team and 2 warriors 1 guardian, 1 necro and an engi on enemy team in top50 solo queue. All meta arguments are invalid :P

QQ for class Nerf in fórum should not be allowed… Any class…

On the whole I don’t see this as a problem. However, I do see it as a problem iff a spec is a hard counter to an entire profession, regardless of build.