Guild Wars 2

@Aereniel, Why should they balance a game for 98% of game population? Well i dont know… maybe… cause of logics?
If you do remember riots balance policy you must know, that they balance their game based on pro players AND casual players. There have been a lot of nerfs/buffs for champions that were pubstomping on bronze, silver leagues.
So your arguments are quite weak.

Balancing a game around that 2% of top players is bad idea because those 98% that make a playerbase for the game will just stop playing or do something else other than spvp. And you have to be at least a half decent being to understand that 98% of gamers give more profit to anet than those 2% and esports.

I just dont get it why do you think that “low-middle” tier of spvp players are BAD and dont know the mechanics? They are GOOD enough to be in their tier of ranking. Not everyone has the capabilities or/and time to invest in competitive scene. And if someone, for example me, cant actually spend a lot of time on spvp competitive scene (gotta work you know), he/I do not deserve to have fun in this game mode? Or dont i deserve to have equal chances of wining a game at my tier of ranking or play a balanced game?
Thats what i said about elitism. With no casual based policy there will never be a competitive scene.

Aereniel.7356:

Ithilwen.1529:

It is true that a high skill cap is “different from having a steep learning curve or a deterringly high skill floor.” However they are interrelated. As skill cap rises in has a very strong tendency to raise the skill floor. This naturally results in a steep learning curve.

I agree that the tendency exists, however, I disagree about the strength of the causality. As for whether a steep learning curve or a high minimum skill floor is an impediment for fun, I see no reason to debate that. It’s subjective and there are as many viable answers as there are players. To each their own. I will say, however, that having a steep learning curve is not and has never been an impediment for commercial success or longevity in gaming. Examples range from Roguelikes to EVE Online to Demon’s Souls to Smash Melee. It’s a bit of a hollow argument to claim that PvP is running thin on population because the skill barrier of entry or learning curve is too high. That might represent how you as a point estimate feel, but it’s not necessarily indicative of anything population-wide.

Actually, I would argue that GW2 PvP has never been easier to get into and more inclusive at the low tiers than at this very moment, when anyone can pick any profession they choose and get legend with it. That’s a low-tier time-gated accomplishment everyone can aspire to. No skill required, just time.

Ithilwen.1529:

If, as you say, Pro League is “not even playing the same game,” then; I contend that balance decisions should not be made based on Pro League.

Don’t be a silly goose, why would any sane system developer balance for players who don’t even know how the game works, e.g. the mid-to-low tiers? This is the Master Yi pub stomp argument all over again, and it gets debunked every time. Best practice is to balance for the top 1% while at the same time correcting outliers that erode the low-to-mid-tier customer experience, which is what Anet has consistently done.

And yet here we are bleeding out so many players daily. Yet these people keep saying, hey guys it’s ok everything is all good, you just have to force your self to like it. lol

This is not a problem in any other mainstream eSports atm to include the new one OW, which btw is a big success story both to the competitive and causal scenes without degrading one or the other.

I think this is because of two major differences….

A.) They all have a Dedicated PvP Balancing team that balances the classes and MM. GW2’s sPvP balance team’s are pretty much from the sound of it, are trying to balance the game mode with their hands tied behind their backs.

B.) They all have a way for you to not be forced into a match long unfavorable class/playstyle match-ups, by allowing players to switch their builds on the fly to allow for the extra competitive counter-play. In GW2 if you try to switch you character mid match after seeing the enemy team’s build is a complete crub stomp comp to yours you are punished with dishonor, therefor allows very little to no counter-play. Which in my opinion makes for even more boring matches. Also it leads to 2 or 3 players going to a point just to instantly die over and over and over again, sounds fun and competitive right?

soulknight.9620:

If you do remember riots balance policy you must know, that they balance their game based on pro players AND casual players. There have been a lot of nerfs/buffs for champions that were pubstomping on bronze, silver leagues. So your arguments are quite weak.

Riot does exactly as I said. Best practice is to balance for the top 1% while at the same time correcting outliers that erode the low-to-mid-tier customer experience. In other words take out the gross offenders that would cause too much whining at low-to-mid tier, but otherwise let the l2p issues resolve themselves. You and I are talking about the same thing.

soulknight.9620:

Why should they balance a game for 98% of game population? Well i dont know… maybe… cause of logics?

You live in a simplistic world, my friend. Balancing solely for the mid-to-low tiers will scuttle your game. First you lose the top-tier players base, which means losing your end game. Esports, tournies, sponsors, Twitch, Youtube, all gone. At that point the aspirational mid-tier will follow, because their long-term progression goals are gone. It’s all about achiever psychology and incentives. The middle of the standard distribution does not play to stay mediocre all their lives, they aspire for the big leagues, and you just took that away from them. Bye bye dead game.

If I have accidentally defended Anet (slightly) in this thread, please don’t take that as an indication that I think GW2 PvP is fine. It’s not. There are huge glaring issues big enough to eat an ocean liner. But they won’t be fixed by pandering to mediocrity.

Aereniel.7356:

soulknight.9620:

If you do remember riots balance policy you must know, that they balance their game based on pro players AND casual players. There have been a lot of nerfs/buffs for champions that were pubstomping on bronze, silver leagues. So your arguments are quite weak.

Riot does exactly as I said. Best practice is to balance for the top 1% while at the same time correcting outliers that erode the low-to-mid-tier customer experience. In other words take out the gross offenders that would cause too much whining at low-to-mid tier, but otherwise let the l2p issues resolve themselves. You and I are talking about the same thing.

soulknight.9620:

Why should they balance a game for 98% of game population? Well i dont know… maybe… cause of logics?

You live in a simplistic world, my friend. Balancing solely for the mid-to-low tiers will scuttle your game. First you lose the top-tier players base, which means losing your end game. Esports, tournies, sponsors, Twitch, Youtube, all gone. At that point the aspirational mid-tier will follow, because their long-term progression goals are gone. It’s all about achiever psychology and incentives. The middle of the standard distribution does not play to stay mediocre all their lives, they aspire for the big leagues, and you just took that away from them. Bye bye dead game.

If I have accidentally defended Anet (slightly) in this thread, please don’t take that as an indication that I think GW2 PvP is fine. It’s not. There are huge glaring issues big enough to eat an ocean liner. But they won’t be fixed by pandering to mediocrity.

Its so good that we have esports, tournies, sponsors, twitch, youtube… oh wait…

Why do you think that top players as a tier in rankeds will be gone? Well if few unhappy pro players want to go away, you cant force them to stay. New top players will rise from mid tier. There will always be top tier. Seen that in a lot of mmos. Sure a guild/clan or a lot of top players can leave, but there are always someone willing to take that place. Its only 2% of the population.
Besides if the game gets a decent balance for mid-low tier players, you will actually see a lot more players playing spvp and there will be a lot more competetive scene, pure maths.
What long term progression are you talking about? Its a game, people play it for fun. If spvp is fun – people will play it, if its not fun, even if you put a decent legendary set for being in top 100 noone will play it. If pro players leave, why would you think that there are no more goals for mid-low tier?
Atm we have balancing that only top 2% can use. Because no mid-low tier player can comprehend and use the complex system of spvp in gw2. Where is the fun factor for people in getting pubstomped? Where is the fun factor in getting kitten d without knowing what you did wrong? Where is the fun factor in being forced to play an op class instead of you desired one? Do you actually think that any of mid-low tier players are going to have somekind of “long term goals” to get to top tiers with that in mind? Dont think so. Thats why we see spvp slowly and painfully dieing.
And again the game dies only when there is no casual “mid-low” tier players. Top tier will always be filled from mid-low tiers.
A lot of pro players were saying that the queue times are awfull, no new blood at top tiers, why do you think that is an issue?

soulknight.9620:

Atm we have balancing that only top 2% can use. Because no mid-low tier player can comprehend and use the complex system of spvp in gw2.

That’s just a bit silly… balance is out of whack for players who don’t quite know how to always step out of Scrapper/DH point cleave, but these things really don’t take a pro player to figure out, red circles and all.

Conquest is a game mode best played with a group on voice comms, but the number of players in a party is accounted for in the balanced matchmaking.

The PvP in this game is extremely balanced. Frustratingly so, even.

FiveGauge.1357:

The PvP in this game is extremely balanced. Frustratingly so, even.

Chaith you have this magical power where you comment and I only see $$ signs and Anet logos.

soulknight.9620:

Its so good that we have esports, tournies, sponsors, twitch, youtube… oh wait…

Why do you think that top players as a tier in rankeds will be gone? Well if few unhappy pro players want to go away, you cant force them to stay. New top players will rise from mid tier. There will always be top tier. Seen that in a lot of mmos. Sure a guild/clan or a lot of top players can leave, but there are always someone willing to take that place. Its only 2% of the population.
Besides if the game gets a decent balance for mid-low tier players, you will actually see a lot more players playing spvp and there will be a lot more competetive scene, pure maths.
What long term progression are you talking about? Its a game, people play it for fun. If spvp is fun – people will play it, if its not fun, even if you put a decent legendary set for being in top 100 noone will play it. If pro players leave, why would you think that there are no more goals for mid-low tier?
Atm we have balancing that only top 2% can use. Because no mid-low tier player can comprehend and use the complex system of spvp in gw2. Where is the fun factor for people in getting pubstomped? Where is the fun factor in getting kitten d without knowing what you did wrong? Where is the fun factor in being forced to play an op class instead of you desired one? Do you actually think that any of mid-low tier players are going to have somekind of “long term goals” to get to top tiers with that in mind? Dont think so. Thats why we see spvp slowly and painfully dieing.
And again the game dies only when there is no casual “mid-low” tier players. Top tier will always be filled from mid-low tiers.
A lot of pro players were saying that the queue times are awfull, no new blood at top tiers, why do you think that is an issue?

A couple of points, because I think you and I are talking about slightly different things. What I was referring to specifically is the profession balance framework in a competitive game. That framework is conceptual and does not, I repeat, does not currently manifest in GW2 PvP in a satisfactory manner. But forget practice for a second and focus on the framework.

If profession balance does not work at the top tier, there will be no top tier, ever. You have designed something else than a competitive game, and the player progression model you described does not apply. There is no progression funnel because there is no viable competitive setting where players can reliably measure their skill against others. Why would a competitively minded player invest time to a game like that?

Now, there are plenty of games with PvP elements where the middle of the curve is happy with a functioning incentive system, but those are not competitive games. Lord of the Rings Online has PvP with rewards attached to it, but it’s not a competitive game. Nobody thinks that playing PvP in LotRO has any relation to personal skill. See the difference?

Now, I think there is a misconception about balancing for the 1%, where people think that it also means shafting the middle of the standard distribution curve – that balancing for the top tier means that the mid-tier has to suffer and not have fun. This is absolutely false. If it happens, the studio has failed. On the contrary, the mid tier needs to feel incentivized, educated by in-game systems and, most importantly, feel that they can improve in a fair competitive setting. This feeling of personal improvement is what I mean with “long-term goals”. And for that to be possible, the game needs to be balanced for the top tier so that the skill cap is high enough to allow for that individual growth. Balance for the middle of the curve and you effectively neuter that growth and your competitive game along with it.

I think one of the big issues, is there is no place for new players to learn.

The instant they join PvP, they will struggle to find 1v1 scenarios. And when they do, they are probobly going to get stomped flat and kitten talked just for being new. Its largely a community problem, people aren’t willing to help others at all. When I needed help a few years ago everyone was hush-hush and still is when I ask an occasional question.

Map chat is a common place new players will turn to, and I dont think I need to explain what’s wrong with that.

Aereniel.7356:

Best practice is to balance for the top 1% while at the same time correcting outliers that erode the low-to-mid-tier customer experience, which is what Anet has consistently done.

And horribly failed. Balancing for 1% is the dumbest thing somebody can possibly do. Ask yourself who keeps a game alive, the 1% so called pro players or the rest.

mordran.4750:

Aereniel.7356:

Best practice is to balance for the top 1% while at the same time correcting outliers that erode the low-to-mid-tier customer experience, which is what Anet has consistently done.

And horribly failed. Balancing for 1% is the dumbest thing somebody can possibly do. Ask yourself who keeps a game alive, the 1% so called pro players or the rest.

Welcome to the thread, feel free to read and digest the rest of the discussion.

Rednik.3809:

I’m so tired from reading this again. And again. And again. No, seriously, SCREW THIS. This “competitive push” killed almost all godkitten casual population. They killed hotjoin. They killed soloQ. They basically gutted casual pvp playerbase every time, trying to saturate their precious esports scene, and failing. Every. Time.
It’s like someone seriously looking at other pvp games and saying “Hey, they have l33t players on top who getting a lot of cool stuff, and large casual base below them! We need this too, so let’s start with creating the elite part and casual playerbase will grow by itself because I’m sure I understand how it works now!”. This is NOT how it works. You cannot build healthy competitive scene without heavily investing into casual popularity. Small pvp playerbase cannot sustain anything competitive, regardless of how much money you will spend on tourneys.

^^ This ^^^

You must first have a large casual player base. Otherwise all else will be fail.

If the game mode too complex to grasp or overwhelming at first, this will turn away of a lot of newcomers. Now imagine the newcomer experience in GW2 spvp. Invisible traps killing you, mesmer spamming gazillion illusions and “evade, evade, invulnerable” reading on your screen all the time. For a new comer spvp will mostly likely appear like
a massive chaotic spam fest. Many maps have secondary mechanics, which aren’t that well explained if you play the map for the first time.

The rewards in all 3 game modes should be more equal. Now pve offers by far the best rewards with WvWvW and spvp lagging behind. Pve is the fastest way for legendary weapons and other cool, shiny stuff. This is especially harmful for WvWvW players, because they use pve gear, yet you must do fractals (pve) to get 3 slot attuned rings. Forcing players to play other game mode they hate to get optimal gear = bad idea.

In spvp the problem is that the gear is way too limited. Instead of toning down the overpowered elite specs and power creep, Arenanet decided to do the lazy way to balance this game mode: deletion of lots of amulets. The removal of amulets removed a lot of valid builds as well and this is the #1 reason I stopped spvp. The less there is variety, the quicker you get bored. It doesn’t take a lot of spvp matches to see the same builds and tactics again and again.

FiveGauge.1357:

soulknight.9620:

Atm we have balancing that only top 2% can use. Because no mid-low tier player can comprehend and use the complex system of spvp in gw2.

That’s just a bit silly… balance is out of whack for players who don’t quite know how to always step out of Scrapper/DH point cleave, but these things really don’t take a pro player to figure out, red circles and all.

Conquest is a game mode best played with a group on voice comms, but the number of players in a party is accounted for in the balanced matchmaking.

The PvP in this game is extremely balanced. Frustratingly so, even.

While I agree with the first half of your statement… the second half about premades being accounted for in the balanced matchmaking is so incorrect.
It might be (though I have the suspicion they broke that part this season) accounted for in terms of rostersize adding some padding, but in a balanced matchmaking for mixed-queue, every player would need to have two ratings. One for soloqueueing, and one for teamqueueing. Only then would we start seeing balanced matchmaking.
Without that second rating, every attempt at mixed queues is a failure from the beginning.

And as far as I know, Anet hasnt added that. I wouldnt be at all surprised if Anet went for the very simplistic approach of just averaging mmr’s of premades, then add some for rostersize. Thats a bit like solving problems using junior high math. You can still get a somewhat believable approximation, but you dont actually solve the problem for all cases with it.

With a separate team-mmr for everybody, Anet could scrap that horrible assumption that rostersize has anything to do with skill.

Here’s a list of things that are relevant for mmr:
- amount of gamemode’s matches played (all professions)
- winrate (all professions)
- amount of matches played with queued profession
- winrate with queued profession (might be redundant and probably can be removed)
- decay
- personal score (see below)
- separate mmr for queueing as part of team

For this, anet would have to make certain changes to personal score:
- Add negative score for deaths
- Add defense-counter (fighting on capped point ticks personal score over time)
- Split up any points awarded between participating players (two are capping → 2 points each… five killing one player → 1 point each player… etc)

To make a game attractive for gamers to spend their time in it, you have to solve balancing and matchmaking. Esports works nice as advertisement, but if gamers cant get “good” matches during primetime, they leave. If forums are full of people complaining about horrible matchmaking, people dont buy the game. Advertisement money spent on esports has its valid points… BUT its time for anet to fix fundamental problems otherwise the money is spent for nothing.

You want more “honor”, rewards and players in top percent? And I mean, thats the gist of that half hour of helseth’s whining… then you need a solid playerbase of dedicated pvp’ers. Not an influx of huge amounts of casuals like the year of ascencion provided.

And what is it dedicated pvpers want? Good matches, good balancing, good rewards.

As it is, as long as anet keeps on lacking in those regards, gw2 will continue to bleed dedicated pvpers… and no amount of casuals can fill that gap.

Thats whats wrong.. and missing honor, rewards and players in esports is only the symptoms, not the source of the problem in gw2 pvp.

plebseth is wrong about most things in this video. Very long, many point, but all i hear “give more money to pvp so i can get it all”. kittenantseth needs to understand that mmorpg can not make espot segment. Well known fact in the industry.

Urejt.5648:

plebseth is wrong about most things in this video. Very long, many point, but all i hear “give more money to pvp so i can get it all”. kittenantseth needs to understand that mmorpg can not make espot segment. Well known fact in the industry.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed that as well.

Here’s the reddit thread.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4zeva0/helseth_response_video/

Let me know what you guys think. And as always thanks for watching.

Countless

We need Helseth’s response to Countless’ response to Helseth’s video <popcorn>

definitely agree on more info from Anet however i have suspicion that devs themself often don’t know what will happen next as far as pvp goes

i think old style of tourneys had it’s appeal – people could make teams and there wasn’t such big entrance wall as it is now

i understand there is certain prestige point in pro league but i feel it also shies away a lot of players as well

we don’t really have a platform anymore where new/average teams can try out/get experience (ranked is a joke for it)

FiveGauge.1357:

soulknight.9620:

Atm we have balancing that only top 2% can use. Because no mid-low tier player can comprehend and use the complex system of spvp in gw2.

That’s just a bit silly… balance is out of whack for players who don’t quite know how to always step out of Scrapper/DH point cleave, but these things really don’t take a pro player to figure out, red circles and all.

Conquest is a game mode best played with a group on voice comms, but the number of players in a party is accounted for in the balanced matchmaking.

The PvP in this game is extremely balanced. Frustratingly so, even.

For once I agree with you partly. The balance is close to dead even at the moment. It’s achieved by uncomfortable means and it frustrates players who expected to advance super fast again this season.

Still, GG on the point of balance, ANET. I think you found the best compromise under the current conditions.

-edit- I don’t agree that pvp is “best played” with voice comm and premades. That’s a way to have an overwhelming edge and win extra games… but it is not the “best” way in my opinion. I come to pvp to test myself.. not to play schoolyard games and have to network for teams.

I think Helseth is way too arrogant. When I saw him asking for 10k $ worth of donations when I tuned into his stream recently I couldnt stop laughing,

A few things,

1- you are agreeing with him on alot of stuff and you are actually knit picking things. For instance the team/weekly team rosters. I mean he used 55 rank dragons as a example for guys who came up together and worked threw the process. So there are examples of teams working it out so you and Helseth are right and wrong on that.

2- The conquests issue. You have always suggested PvP have its own skill system which would be different then PvE and you have always said conquest is not good for watching. I disagree, as someone who played Basket Ball at the HS level and more. The average person doesnt see the battles away from the ball. It becomes the the casters/ play by play guys to give attention to these things. For instance in the last world events, tarcis vs AA had 2 1 vs 1 on kylo. 1 vs 5 gauge which he was winning before the team fight came in and then he had a 1 vs 1 vs phanta ranger which he lost 1 vs 1. No one said anything and that had a small impact overall on the game but was huge at that moment. If you watch doug collins, hubie brown, Jeff van gundy call games. They point out things later such as defenders who can cover bubble screens and play zone in between 3 players as your team traps and covers man to man. Its the shout casters to call out the rotations/missed plays. Not only that but to comment on the things you the viewer dont always see. NA and EU do a great job on talking about what they are seeing but they always miss the reason why fights we are watching are happening the way they are.

3- 100% right on build diversity. Helseth was 100% wrong about what the community can do as well as the Pro players. I believe you played mesmer and there would be a reason to watch you stream if there were 2-3 good builds you could play that gave something different. You could play wells which is a could bunker build and gives alacrity. Problem with the build could be dps hypothetically. Then a condi 1 vs 1 or a dps roamer build. Once again hypothetically if there were 3 builds like that all have weaknesses and strengths over the other. It gives people a reason to watch you (a high level streamer) to see what best suits them as a player.

We dont have that, we have 1 build for each class that is clearly better at everything then the other. For instance condi warriors do more damage then dps warriors and have better sustain as well. Before the ele nerf eles were the best support/bunker in the game and the dps/condi version of ele was the worst in the game. Forcing ele into 1 role and this needs to be addressed.

So once again i felt you and helseth picked some issues you guys didnt need to and didnt have any answers for the actual issues but i you guys imo both hit the nail on the head with the fact that GW2 PvP is so broken now that it cant be looked at as successful. Like you play a game for 3 reasons, for the many its fun and rewards. For a few its the glory of being one of the best. Its impossible for anyone to have these 3 things with the current PvP scene ESL or not.

kdaddy.5431:

2- The conquests issue. You have always suggested PvP have its own skill system which would be different then PvE and you have always said conquest is not good for watching. I disagree, as someone who played Basket Ball at the HS level and more.

not trying to attack you or anything but the way conquest works and the scale its at is way different than a basketball game. If you were to put it in perspective, at the center line add two length of court on each side. That’s about the scale of your average conquest map compared to a single court. Now add 2 additional balls to the court because there is 3 possible places that plays can be made at once. What your left with would be something absolutely hard to follow. This is the issue with conquest in it’s current form ignoring class balance.

I play this game about 3-5 hours a day, I can watch an ESL match and barely understand what is going on at any given moment. The casters can just barely do better. I totally agree with Countless it’s the format that lends it self to being hard to follow.

dominik.9721:

Ithilwen.1529:

-edit- I don’t agree that pvp is “best played” with voice comm and premades. That’s a way to have an overwhelming edge and win extra games… but it is not the “best” way in my opinion. I come to pvp to test myself.. not to play schoolyard games and have to network for teams.

Maybe gw2 5v5 pvp isn’t a good game for you then?
You are the perfect example of the modern gamer who wants to progress but basically does not want to do anything for it.

On the one hand,you always write about that you want to progress and that you want to be successfull but on the other hand you tell us that you don’t want to put any effort into this game to improve and to get better. Gw2 is a super easy causal game and you state it would be too complex, too hard and what not else.Further you even admit you don’t want to use anything team related.
Since season 1 – doesn’t matter if the system has favoured bad players or good players- you are simply complaining about that you don’t progress. It’s just super weird and I’m very happy that a player like you who does not work on his self, does not progress. Sorry but I think none here has any tolerance towards your ignorance.

I don’t know I kinda get where she is coming from. We come here to play a competitive game and hone our skills. Not to be forced into a noncompetitive environment where you progress simply by networking and finding better players to carry you so you “THINK” you are progressing in skill, but is not because solo players and premades are thrown into the same queue, and then to boot the solo players have to deal with carrying some of the most novice inexperienced sPvPers in RANKED matches which are supposedly competitive matches.

From my experiences as both a solo queuer and a premade player, because most of the community in this game are solo queuer and because of the state of the MM as a premade your team is already highly in-favored to win many matches, as long as yall are somewhat knowledgeable players. As a premade you can make many mistakes and still win by a blow out. While on the only hand you can have a perfectly played game as a solo players but still lose in a blow out. And in most cases there is no inbetween.

Most points I’ll disagree with what Ithilwen.1529 has to say. However on this topic I will have to somewhat agree with her on. More so since GW2’s sPvP Ranked game mode falling from my graces in mid Season 2 and in search of other games my conclusion is, this is a GW2 only problem.

Dominik, please dont equate not wanting to play pvp in premades to not doing anything to get better -.-

The time I spent each day on golems, dueling and in unranked matches says definitely that Im not someone just lazying about and expecting easy wins.

Still Im not the least bit interested in joining a premade, Im a dedicated soloqueuer. Doesnt make me a lazy person.

Imo, a good player can anticipate pretty much everything in gw2 pvp, due to it being so predictable and limited. Voice comms are only necessary, if players arent good.

Playing gw2 pvp with voice comms is lazy. You only need one good player coordinating, and 4 pawns executing to win games that way <yawn>.

So, its rather debatable if playing gw2 pvp with full premade and voice chat is the best way. Its definitely the easiest way, no argument there.

Does this however have anything to do with wanting to improve oneself’s gameplay? Nope.

Eval.2371:

kdaddy.5431:

2- The conquests issue. You have always suggested PvP have its own skill system which would be different then PvE and you have always said conquest is not good for watching. I disagree, as someone who played Basket Ball at the HS level and more.

not trying to attack you or anything but the way conquest works and the scale its at is way different than a basketball game. If you were to put it in perspective, at the center line add two length of court on each side. That’s about the scale of your average conquest map compared to a single court. Now add 2 additional balls to the court because there is 3 possible places that plays can be made at once. What your left with would be something absolutely hard to follow. This is the issue with conquest in it’s current form ignoring class balance.

I play this game about 3-5 hours a day, I can watch an ESL match and barely understand what is going on at any given moment. The casters can just barely do better. I totally agree with Countless it’s the format that lends it self to being hard to follow.

For instance the spurs played a high elbow motion offense very similar to the Utah Jazz of the 90’s. Its based on high picks at the elbow with base line movement in cutting.

You dont hear the play by play guy call it as a base line cut followed by a flare screen into a inside cut by the point guard followed by a pick by the center with the power forward boxing out the interior defender. So the player has a clear lane to the basket.

My comparison from conquest to basketball at its purest form is usually not fully understood by the masses. 95% of people dont realize the amount of physical contact and hits you take especially when you run motion type offenses. When you see simpler forms of basketball like in the 90’s with centers and PF post play the game is simpler.

That was like our Pre HOT PvP where we always had the 1-3-1 or the 1-1-3 splits. You could evenly see fights. You could see who won what match up and why.

Conquest is very much like basketball when i ask you to be the defender of manu in 2005. At that level 99% of people do not know what your responsibility’s are on defense but they will only know when you made a big mistake or if you are simply not good enough. To give a exact point, you probably watch the player with the ball when you watch a game. The player on the court typically watch the player they most fear. A great example is Dirk Nowitzki. He will be running circles in the paint and run out to set a screen for the person with the ball or another team mate. His team mates got easy baskets because 2-3 defenders are already running to dirk. You are sitting back saying why was that so easy?

I personally see most of whats going on from the life bars and the mini screen seeing where everyone is. Can i tell what happening in the fight? No not really but thats because of the HOT. I use to be able to see all weapon skills being used and utility/elite skills being used Pre-HOT. I understand you want to say conquest is hard to follow but simply saying that conquest is too difficult to follow is not true. Trying to find the enjoyment of watching a team fight with all the clutter i can agree with you.

Nice Video with alot of good points made, however I must agree with kdaddy in that I think the core issue is not with the game mode itself. Yea for conquest you won’t catch 100% of the action, but you can catch a much bigger part of it. When I spectate scrims, I get way more engaged into the game than I do watching casted games. Why? My camera is ALWAYS on a player, I can always see skills, cooldowns etc as if I was playing. Now following the right players etc would take some time, but it is definitely possible to improve streaming and casting quality of these games ALOT. I’m not blaming the casters on this, I agree that there needs to be significant incentives for casters to improve (be it monetary or otherwise).

Furthermore I think one should really put emphasis on the issue that especially helseth is quick to bash other players publically for being “bad”. So as an up and coming player, you may not be pro-league level yet, but you may be getting there. Improving and working on your game constantly. If you then so happen to be playing a mesmer (god bless your soul) he will tear into you like he hasn’t eaten in a week. That is NOT how you encourage less known players. (It is not just helseth that does this btw, I think the only regular streamers that are associated with Pro League and don’t actually do this actively are ROM and Tage, I guess Paul too)

Swagger.1459:

It was refreshing reading up and watching videos by CU developers when they discuss class designs, stealth, cc… and the players who make streams discussing those elements and going in depth… Don’t see that here from the devs, and very little from players. I see a dev team that creates all things around pve and shoves it into pvp modes then moves on and players niggling about a few traits, meanwhile, the core problems are completely ignored and remain unaddressed.

Never forget that City State Entertainments approach is something absolutely unique and new to the game of MMORPG-development. Also, in principle, Helseth mentioned ANETs transparency and communication, or rather the lack thereof, is a key-issue. If you, as a developer, communicate with your players and fans, you will most likely come up with ideas that suit exactly the people that support your game.
Mark Jacobs approach is successful BECAUSE he is talking to his player base, publishing every single step of the development, even up to a point where he cancelled the beta1-deadline they worked so hard to keep and he stepped in front of a camera in a public twitch stream, explained, without blaming any single employee, what the problem was, why they have to postpone beta1, even offered backers a money back guarantee and guess what, with a few exceptions of course, everyone was completely supportive and understanding and even offered help in any way possible. hell, they even fed the programmers during their heavy crunching time by donating pizza money! who would do that to a bunch of uncommunicative guys holed up in their office?
Another perfect example was that new approach by that ANET guy whose name i forgot, mea culpa, who worked on the MMR and tried to perfect the glicko2 system. He tried to explain everything he was allowed to discuss, partly even sharing lines of code to improve it, together, with and for the community. probably even in his own free time. people appreciated that, comments were mainly positive and people with a programming background offered help. that was nice. sadly, this completely stopped after some time and the dev-posts ceased to the old level, with a comment from grouch or gaile(not blaming them of course, since they’re some of the few left who take their time to respond to questions) from time to time and the negative comments came back, up to a point where the atmosphere became more toxic than anything else.

It’s nice to have a vision and to not strain from it, but let’s, for example, look at No Man’s Sky. Absolutely no communication whatsoever, faked, pre-rendered pictures and so on. Game gets released for 60 bucks and the almighty kittenstorm nearly blew away half the planets in the universe