Guild Wars 2

http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/c/2831244

Diskussion! :P

Ahah
In Before Lock!
Anet you better censor this fast!

inb4 the lock as well !

Discussion already here, guys:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Rant-of-the-week-Counter-Play

I honestly don’t see why Anet keeps removing this topic. He’s pretty much spot on.

Yes, lets just keep covering up the issues…

The first thread has already been moved to Linksville.
Inb4 lock!

Anet trying to hide this is just pushing me to give up and quit the game..

I tried to post this is on reddit, here is the link..

http://tr.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1la7ts/no_need_flast.e_state_of_the_game_show_this_sums/

I cant understand why they try to hide this, are they that desperate? I dont know they should gave us a reason at least..

ertugrul.8031:

I tried to post this is on reddit, here is the link..

http://tr.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1la7ts/no_need_flast.e_state_of_the_game_show_this_sums/

I cant understand why they try to hide this, are they that desperate? I dont know they should gave us a reason at least..

From the stuff I’ve heard Anet say, they either don’t care or HONESTLY don’t see a single issue and the people complaining don’t know what they’re talking about or are just haters….

That’s what’s incredibly sad, and scary that they can’t see the problems.

for some reason he forgot to mention the engineer, didnt anyone notice :P

“it is very hard to play perfectly, but very easy to play mindlessly”

there is no difference between top teams and hotjoin games. Every single player can appear “skillful” in this game because in fact, every class has an insanely OP side (including the eles) but the moment they meet their “counter-play” class they are dead

There is absolutely no way to “actively counterplay your active opponent”
the only thing you can do is to actively counterplay their passive traits
except, the way traits are balanced are so narrowed and cannot be put into 1 big picture that it’s just a RNG about “which class you run into”

mesmer is UP, yes, but they can still melt ANYONE excpet S/D thief in like 3 seconds if unchecked. The fact is that there is currently no way to spot what your opponents are going to do and prepare a strategy. There is no way to nail down counter-play or execute them

Darkdanjal.3401:

for some reason he forgot to mention the engineer, didnt anyone notice :P

BC stunwarriors destroy engineers.

I like how he sounded more distraught than anything.

I do agree that what jon peters said:

Mod jon_peters: you have to actively react to all the passive things going on
Mod jon_peters: so its still very reactionary and there is still a LOT of skill in spirit ranger

Makes me absolutely disgusted as well. What exactly are you supposed to react to? The spirit’s effects will proc every 10 seconds or so, especially at the rate a ranger attacks at. The fact that they actually believe this makes me seriously lose hope in the direction of balance the game is moving in. It honestly sounds like we can expect even more passive play, even more extremely strong random procs because somehow this makes for exceedingly skilled active play.

Additionally, that they are increasing damage across the board constantly (see: necro) and see no problem with this whatsoever means that being invulnerable half the time will continue to be the only way to survive anything in this game, and that is ridiculous! I came into this game expecting having to dodge only at key, opportune moments but as the game goes on this gets less and less true, and it’s only made worse by anet’s continual support for this kind of play.

This all stems from the fact that the devs are woefully terrible at their own game. Pathetically so. Which is why they don’t recognize a problem when it smacks them in the head.

Jon Peters himself is rank 13 in PvP. After a year.

I don’t even know what else to say.

If you’ve ever played a lead dev of a fighting game, or a RTS game, while they may not be the absolute best players in the world, they will be able to put up a good fight due to knowledge of mechanics, etc.

But unfortunately, I really don’t think that the lead devs of GW2 even play their own game.

These are the same guys that think random procs and effects can be skillful. That Mr. Peters said such a thing doesn’t surprise me, but it does not bode well for future balance changes.

Helseth is spot on, and I would further argue that Anet seem to be completely out of touch with what’s actually worthwhile to use and what isn’t. That we have so many useless traits and skills is testament to that lack of foresight.

That in public they express that “balance is good” and the like I guess is not so bad, since it would be a bad marketing move, what worries me is if they actually believe this is true when the time comes for adjustments.

What we have now is a title where your build and class matter far more for your performance as a player than your individual skill – something that does not bode well for an aspiring Esport. I have no genuine interest in seeing a giant spamfest of AOE explosions on a point, with team compositions that run the same OP classes with the same OP builds, over and over and over.

let me say this, Helseth is indeed in most of the things he said SPOT on. I played all classes en I played Mesmer, Ele, Thief a good amount of time, I havent played the other classes as much but I can feel how I go up against the other classes.

I said in another topic, I keep playing PvP because the combar is fun but at the same time it can be frustrating to die in a split second because of stun locks, evades all the time and a massive blob of AOE where you dont even know what happened.

How are we as players suppose to respond to a 1-2 seconds dead, even with mind boggling skills more then half of your hp can be down in seconds

I would suggest: reduce the damage overall in GW2, sure a thief can still spike, sure a warrior can still be deadly in burst, mesmer can still shatter for high damage and so on but reducing all of those in general for all classes while maintaining there actual function would be a good start

Ferik.3127:

“it is very hard to play perfectly, but very easy to play mindlessly”

there is no difference between top teams and hotjoin games. Every single player can appear “skillful” in this game because in fact, every class has an insanely OP side (including the eles) but the moment they meet their “counter-play” class they are dead

There is absolutely no way to “actively counterplay your active opponent”
the only thing you can do is to actively counterplay their passive traits
except, the way traits are balanced are so narrowed and cannot be put into 1 big picture that it’s just a RNG about “which class you run into”

mesmer is UP, yes, but they can still melt ANYONE excpet S/D thief in like 3 seconds if unchecked. The fact is that there is currently no way to spot what your opponents are going to do and prepare a strategy. There is no way to nail down counter-play or execute them

Someone might say that this game is so hardcore, is completely casual.

i.e.: it is so fastpaced and hard to read you can’t even bother about thinking what are you doing.

You know what? Maybe every skill in this game should be as easy to read as possible. And making the battlefield as confusing as possible shouldn’t be a defensive mechanic (example of following this idea: make mesmers much more resistant by thmselves, better heals, better protection uptime, better moblitiy, anything they need, and reduce their reliance on clones).

Maybe skill should become the ability to elaborate original strategies and adapting to the situation, not reaction time or the ability to see small animation or to spot something in a sea of AIs. That would make the game much more fun to play and watch. And it’s important for an e-sport.

Let’s make an example: try to go and watch some pvp gameplay from Dark Souls. I never played the game (and I am ashamed of that, because it is a masterpiece), but I was able from the start to understand most of what was going on. After one year of GW2 pvp, sometimes I still can’t see what is going on in those fights, for all the stuff kicking around.

Are we e-sports yet?

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Are we e-sports yet?

This should be in the SOTG question topic.

Ferik.3127:

“it is very hard to play perfectly, but very easy to play mindlessly”

there is no difference between top teams and hotjoin games. Every single player can appear “skillful” in this game because in fact, every class has an insanely OP side (including the eles) but the moment they meet their “counter-play” class they are dead

There is absolutely no way to “actively counterplay your active opponent”
the only thing you can do is to actively counterplay their passive traits
except, the way traits are balanced are so narrowed and cannot be put into 1 big picture that it’s just a RNG about “which class you run into”

mesmer is UP, yes, but they can still melt ANYONE excpet S/D thief in like 3 seconds if unchecked. The fact is that there is currently no way to spot what your opponents are going to do and prepare a strategy. There is no way to nail down counter-play or execute them

This is, to some extent, true for a lot of MMO’s though. But when an MMO is atleast sort of balance, you will be able to win from a worse player even if he is your counter. This is not so much the case in GW2 though, some passive mechanics are so strong and easy that it’s near pointless and suicidal to go anything else.

It seems to me that AoE conditions (or conditions in general), massive mobility/evades and minions are some of the major issues that break the gameplay.

Soon .

Helseth strikes me as poor guy that has invested too much in gw2 spvp and yet he couldn’t fool himself completely, like a sort-of friend of mine who invested all his savings in a house and then the crash happens and the hype goes away.

He isn’t completely fooled, so instead of trying to sell the house for 100% or more of it’s price, he sells it by 80%, it obviously doesn’t work and in the end he sells it for 50% and accepts the loses.

Helseth it’s sort of the same, he invested too much time and effort in gw2 spvp, yet he sees that gw2 spvp isn’t even a decent pvp game (so calling it esport would be laughable), he sees that a lot of stuff needs to change, but he still believes it can be saved, he still believes that the core of the game is good and sweet and true and with some changes it will be awesome. Reality is a hard opponent and it always strikes back, in the end, he will stop playing too.

Arenanet rewards bad players for being bad.
Any skill ceiling that was left in this game has been removed with
2 necro 1 Thief 1 Ranger 1 Guard.
4/8 classes representation, cheese play ftw and the Devs call it Skilled play.

i just seems odd to me people didn’t realize problems earlier, most of them have been there since launch.

necro staff has always been spamspamspam. nothing changed. it was that way. they just boosted condis for more spamspamspam.

same for burning. it has been very strong for some classes. it was clearly seen it was going to be over the top for necro. it’s still there now. why?

npc summons have been annoying with the targeting system since launch. still nothing done with it. because mesmer clones and game engine probably.

gw2 has been fun but recent changes haven’t really made it more interesting for anyone loving pvp in any form other than funny “snowball spam” games. it’s sad for such potential to get wasted tbh.

Zumy.6318:

Darkdanjal.3401:

for some reason he forgot to mention the engineer, didnt anyone notice :P

BC stunwarriors destroy engineers.

Engineers take 53% less damage while stunned when properly traited. I can sit inside a 100B and lose maybe 2k health because the warrior stunned me first.

there is a lot of evidence that the devs dont understand the intricacies of their own game. for the ranger, one example is Nature’s Voice GM trait. giving regen + swiftness to a prof that already has too much of it, while forcing the use of useless utilities like Guard

Helseth should just play Zellqt’s banana mesmer build!

Helseths analysis is pretty spot on. Everything needs nerfed to the ground because the affects that such high damage and broken survivability mechanics have caused on the games overall play has been extremely negative.

I would so love the see the TTK raised, I hate this low TTK crap, EVERY pvp game ends up with it.

Knote.2904:

I would so love the see the TTK raised, I hate this low TTK crap, EVERY pvp game ends up with it.

I agree completely – time to kill is absurdly short in some situations. Overall damage needs to come down, and active skill use should always be more profitable than sitting on a bunch of passive procs while spamming auto attack. This would make the game both more interesting to play and more interesting to watch, as encounters become more back-and-forth exchanges instead of this spam-zerg we have currently.

I loved the comedic silences when Helseth discussed the ranger. I like the profession a lot, but sadly it epitomizes a lot of the design problems the game currently has (dependence on AI, abundance of passive effects).

jportell.2197:

Zumy.6318:

Darkdanjal.3401:

for some reason he forgot to mention the engineer, didnt anyone notice :P

BC stunwarriors destroy engineers.

Engineers take 53% less damage while stunned when properly traited. I can sit inside a 100B and lose maybe 2k health because the warrior stunned me first.

I was being ironic…

Truth has been said, lets see if anet will Act to actually do something usefull

This is pretty much spot on and the reason why most of the people I knew quit the game before this terrible meta. I don’t intend to knock the devs down but when we (before solo q) faced a full anet dev team and they (devs [whose names will be censored]) could not play even a mesmer properly (auto attacking on staff is as far as I will discuss this) had alot of people laughing on ts as we stomped them on a landslide (120-500?). If they never split PvE/PvP and continue to be arrogant thinking they can do both they should literally just stop and let any form of skill die off. I think everyone knows what the main problems are:
1. No split between PvE/PvP limits any form of balance for pvp
2. AoE needs to be lowered overall to promote more skill play (reduce the 100-0 spikes with it)
3. Rewards- I will say it is 3 but it is literally the reason why I don’t even tpvp anymore due to having amassed a stack of each respective tourny token and another 50 chests waiting to be opened.
4. I think there are better ideas which the community has spoken of which include being able to change our passive traits to introduce more build diversity, if Anet doesn’t choose to take these seriously I just can’t.
5. I will put this at the bottom of my list because Gw1 is just superior to Gw2 in terms of gamemodes which have been discussed to death so I will just say /enuff said on this topic.

Aereniel.7356:

Knote.2904:

I would so love the see the TTK raised, I hate this low TTK crap, EVERY pvp game ends up with it.

I agree completely – time to kill is absurdly short in some situations. Overall damage needs to come down, and active skill use should always be more profitable than sitting on a bunch of passive procs while spamming auto attack. This would make the game both more interesting to play and more interesting to watch, as encounters become more back-and-forth exchanges instead of this spam-zerg we have currently.

I loved the comedic silences when Helseth discussed the ranger. I like the profession a lot, but sadly it epitomizes a lot of the design problems the game currently has (dependence on AI, abundance of passive effects).

This 100-times this! Some people like to justify having massive passive procs, aoe spam,and ai-carrying by saying kitten like “It’s all about timing” or “u ned to adapt bro”. Not true at all! It’s as easy as waiting for your enemies to use their dodge then unload your burst, or in some builds just dodge a kitten ton or spam your evade skills, or even worse let your passives do the talking(you’re beneficial to the team sure, but no thought process is needed to pull this off effectively)! “learn2adapt” is also extremely wrong, because it shouldn’t be the players needing to adapt to the metas that make “viable” builds be “so easy a newb can do it”, it should be the Devs adapting to us!

Zumy.6318:

Darkdanjal.3401:

for some reason he forgot to mention the engineer, didnt anyone notice :P

BC stunwarriors destroy engineers.

Bc the main topic is counterplay for a reason.Stunlock war might seem to destroy everything because the new meta builds hence the majority of players are very effective against all but the new stunlock war.But they have counters one of my most feared being condi engineer.While a stunlock war can destroy power engi and every condi based class including necro, it gets easymode destroyed by a condi engineer in semicapable hands.But there are countets to that too ofcourse, that would mean bot being a stunlock war anymore;)

Tldr it s a counter build game and counters are not based on class vs class but rather on build vs build.

jportell.2197:

Zumy.6318:

Darkdanjal.3401:

for some reason he forgot to mention the engineer, didnt anyone notice :P

BC stunwarriors destroy engineers.

Engineers take 53% less damage while stunned when properly traited. I can sit inside a 100B and lose maybe 2k health because the warrior stunned me first.

Your saying 100% crit chance warrior using 100 blades only does 4k damage. LOL just sit in it anyway then. If 100 blades did 4k damage it wouldn’t be a must avoid ability.

Idk who your fighting but any decent stun warrior has unsuspecting foe.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unsuspecting_Foe

Yeah, I asked him on his stream to justify some (not all, but some) of the things he said in his rant. He responded by throwing out all kinds of insults at me, and completely and utterly evading the question altogether.

He’s incredibly rude, and it’s not wonder ANet doesn’t want him coming on these forums; he’s a stain on our otherwise decent community.

Arganthium.5638:

Yeah, I asked him on his stream to justify some (not all, but some) of the things he said in his rant. He responded by throwing out all kinds of insults at me, and completely and utterly evading the question altogether.

He’s incredibly rude, and it’s not wonder ANet doesn’t want him coming on these forums; he’s a stain on our otherwise decent community.

because defaming someone in a public forum without any prove is a decent community. cool story.

Arganthium.5638:

Yeah, I asked him on his stream to justify some (not all, but some) of the things he said in his rant. He responded by throwing out all kinds of insults at me, and completely and utterly evading the question altogether.

He’s incredibly rude, and it’s not wonder ANet doesn’t want him coming on these forums; he’s a stain on our otherwise decent community.

If those points must be explained to you, I agree with him raging out.

Arganthium.5638:

Yeah, I asked him on his stream to justify some (not all, but some) of the things he said in his rant. He responded by throwing out all kinds of insults at me, and completely and utterly evading the question altogether.

He’s incredibly rude, and it’s not wonder ANet doesn’t want him coming on these forums; he’s a stain on our otherwise decent community.

Justify what?
Pretty much everything in his rant is true, definitely not false (not taking any sides in any argument, just curious as to what needed to be justified).

Harbinger.8637:

I honestly don’t see why Anet keeps removing this topic. He’s pretty much spot on.

Yes, lets just keep covering up the issues…

covering up the issues is all they’re doing for the passed 12 months, nothing new and i don’t expect any changes

I’m not sure if I still want to play sPvP with my thief eventhough I just started. I’m not the best player, but definitely not the worst player either. Every game I enter the majority of the teams are necro/engineers and rangers (necro seems especially prominent).

On many occassions it’s impossible to make any sense of the giant red blob with gazillion minions. And even if I tried to go aggressive, I get punished by people backpeddling and spamming AoE conditions. Is there actually any point in attacking lol? At first I just went in, no matter what the odds were. Now I just steer clear from the people with an army or baiting you with sturdy AoE condition builds and try to find an ele, mesmer, warrior or other thief to duel with. Could take me a few games to actually find one, but allright.

Arganthium.5638:

Yeah, I asked him on his stream to justify some (not all, but some) of the things he said in his rant. He responded by throwing out all kinds of insults at me, and completely and utterly evading the question altogether.

He’s incredibly rude, and it’s not wonder ANet doesn’t want him coming on these forums; he’s a stain on our otherwise decent community.

Do you have any proof of this, or should we just accept your word as proof (and I might add, he seems to not be able to post here). Because in that case, it is just your PoV and honestly it seems a bit slanderous.
I have seen people posting here and seeming reasonable, but when you play with them, they are imho none of the sort. In other words: We don’t really know people in here. For all I know, you could have started out by saying something that seemed rude to him, isn’t it?

Poxxia.1547:

Arganthium.5638:

Yeah, I asked him on his stream to justify some (not all, but some) of the things he said in his rant. He responded by throwing out all kinds of insults at me, and completely and utterly evading the question altogether.

He’s incredibly rude, and it’s not wonder ANet doesn’t want him coming on these forums; he’s a stain on our otherwise decent community.

Do you have any proof of this, or should we just accept your word as proof (and I might add, he seems to not be able to post here). Because in that case, it is just your PoV and honestly it seems a bit slanderous.
I have seen people posting here and seeming reasonable, but when you play with them, they are imho none of the sort. In other words: We don’t really know people in here. For all I know, you could have started out by saying something that seemed rude to him, isn’t it?

Proof is hes banned by Anet although hes a top player. I doubt they are in a rush to ban the best players in the game, also can you say you ever heard negative things about the other top players from multiple sources? while not concrete proof…i am starting to believe there’s something to it.

Conan.8046:

Poxxia.1547:

Arganthium.5638:

Yeah, I asked him on his stream to justify some (not all, but some) of the things he said in his rant. He responded by throwing out all kinds of insults at me, and completely and utterly evading the question altogether.

He’s incredibly rude, and it’s not wonder ANet doesn’t want him coming on these forums; he’s a stain on our otherwise decent community.

Do you have any proof of this, or should we just accept your word as proof (and I might add, he seems to not be able to post here). Because in that case, it is just your PoV and honestly it seems a bit slanderous.
I have seen people posting here and seeming reasonable, but when you play with them, they are imho none of the sort. In other words: We don’t really know people in here. For all I know, you could have started out by saying something that seemed rude to him, isn’t it?

Proof is hes banned by Anet although hes a top player. I doubt they are in a rush to ban the best players in the game, also can you say you ever heard negative things about the other top players from multiple sources? while not concrete proof…i am starting to believe there’s something to it.

Uhm … what?? How is that in any way a proof
Seriously, there are a lot more people “harming” the game, than he does.

Have you ever heard of some people not being able to take criticism in a constructive way? And have you heard of people who were bad a conveying it, but but at the same time not being as harsh as they perhaps sounded? There is such a huge room for misunderstanding in these forums and in general if you are not talking directly to someone.

Whatever you believe is a matter between you and whatever. I could say quite a bit about the strength of hearsay and rumours, and how hard it is to wash the stains away. Let me refrain from that.

Ivonbeton.6814:

I’m not sure if I still want to play sPvP with my thief eventhough I just started. I’m not the best player, but definitely not the worst player either. Every game I enter the majority of the teams are necro/engineers and rangers (necro seems especially prominent).

On many occassions it’s impossible to make any sense of the giant red blob with gazillion minions. And even if I tried to go aggressive, I get punished by people backpeddling and spamming AoE conditions. Is there actually any point in attacking lol? At first I just went in, no matter what the odds were. Now I just steer clear from the people with an army or baiting you with sturdy AoE condition builds and try to find an ele, mesmer, warrior or other thief to duel with. Could take me a few games to actually find one, but allright.

You are probably runing a balanced spec, use an overpowered one (overpowered specs in gw2 are called balanced and fine specs).

Reroll to sword/dagger.
Spam.
Profit.
Your performance will improve in 1 day or less.

Conan.8046:

jportell.2197:

Zumy.6318:

Darkdanjal.3401:

for some reason he forgot to mention the engineer, didnt anyone notice :P

BC stunwarriors destroy engineers.

Engineers take 53% less damage while stunned when properly traited. I can sit inside a 100B and lose maybe 2k health because the warrior stunned me first.

Your saying 100% crit chance warrior using 100 blades only does 4k damage. LOL just sit in it anyway then. If 100 blades did 4k damage it wouldn’t be a must avoid ability.

Idk who your fighting but any decent stun warrior has unsuspecting foe.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unsuspecting_Foe

Well, in spvp hundred blades will deal around 8k damage (unless you are really squishy). What adds to the burst is the fact that it procs Fire Sigil too.

However, take into account most engies run around with something like 2600-2700 armor. Maybe it’s an understatement, but the damage won’t be too far from 2k.

What might happen is that engi won’t kill warrior and warrior won’t kill engi. Both have high HPS, warrior has stuns, engi has damage reduction while stunned.

Smart warriors might try to use other stuns to proc protection and wait it out before using burst, but that means you have to:

stun/daze the engi
wait out protection

Now, you’ll have a small window to Skull Crack the engi. I think most engies will have 3.6 seconds of protection lasting this way (+20% from 20 points in Alchemy). Now you have 1.4 seconds before the ICD wears off. Considering you have to be really close to land Skull Crack, that is not easy. And I think it shouldn’t be easier.

The engi might try to solve this by dodging right after protection ends.

Still, you are fighting the UI, not the player.XD

And all this complexity goes down the drain in a group fight.

Think its best to just think about Guild Wars 2 dedicated pvp as no longer a big feature of the game but like a step above a mini game that anet seems to release every month. I get the feeling the problems of fixing all the things that will make pvp great will just require to much time/resources so everything we kind of get (pretty much since release) has been band aid solutions.

The games been out for a year now more or less. All you need to see over that year is a timeline of whats been added/changed for pve/wvw and pvp. If you compare the two aspects of the game you can clearly see which one is being focused on.

In the end, Guild Wars 2 will always be remembered for its PVE and never for its PVP.

BumpBumpBumpBumpBump

Just because he’s a kitten doesn’t make him any less right, a lot of top pvp’ers tend to be “rough around the edges” and if Anet uses that as an excuse to ignore his advice they’re stupider than I thought.

Guy 1 starts walking towards a cliff with a steep drop off unknowingly.

Guy 2 says “Hey f***t**d stop walking that way you’re gonna fall of a cliff moron.”

Guy 1 “Wow that is just rude why would I listen to you?”

Guy 1 falls off the cliff…

Knote.2904:

Just because he’s a kitten doesn’t make him any less right, a lot of top pvp’ers tend to be “rough around the edges” and if Anet uses that as an excuse to ignore his advice they’re stupider than I thought.

Guy 1 starts walking towards a cliff with a steep drop off unknowingly.

Guy 2 says “Hey f***t**d stop walking that way you’re gonna fall of a cliff moron.”

Guy 1 “Wow that is just rude why would I listen to you?”

Guy 1 falls off the cliff…

Well if Guy 2 doesn’ t learn some proper manners he can expect to have many more Guy 1 on his coscience.