Guild Wars 2

In the current PvP environment, High risk is rewarded primarily by dying more often.

I play a Mesmer because I like to play Mesmer. By doing so, I have to accept that I’m gonna get hammered more often. The trouble with that is that it’s really not rewarded with the chance to make that big play.

A riskier and squishier profession should be rewarded with some outstanding ability.That could be high dps ( one of the lowest risks professions currently has the highest dps ) It could be superior mobility and/or stealth.

There is one (core) Mesmer ability that is not at least partly replicated by other classes.

Most classes have short range teleports or leaps. The majority of classes have some form of stealth.

As it is, there’s really not much point in playing squishier builds because the easier builds can do what you can anyway and probably do it better and easier.

And that is why the queues are stacked with DH, War, Engie.

They threw that concept out of the window when HoT was designed.

high risk, high reward is already in the game, it’s called glass cannon builds.

The problem is that “high risk” is not a desirable attribute in PvP, so build crafting focuses on eliminating risk rather than increasing reward.

Taking risks will never be worth it in PvP. Your opponent will always exploit any risks you take. So the best option is to take no risks.

I find that attitude… “disheartening.” What, then, is the point of my beloved Mesmer?

After all I could necro and have a crowd of clones that will explode on death. I’d even have a personal portal.

I could play a ranger and be a lot tankier with a much smarter and tougher “phantasm.”

I could engi and moa people to my heart’s content.

All three of those choices would have a significantly better survivability and likely better damage.

Taking risk is the point of gaming. It is the heart and soul of playing a “hero.” Sadly, the community has largely taken up the idea of minimizing risk and maximizing gain.. even at the cost of diminishing the game.

And that is why the games are boring and the queues are stacked with DH, War and Engie.

Ithilwen.1529:

Taking risk is the point of gaming. It is the heart and soul of playing a “hero.” Sadly, the community has largely taken up the idea of minimizing risk and maximizing gain.. even at the cost of diminishing the game.

This has nothing to do with “the community.” and everything to do with how winning works.

Humans are intelligent and humans will exploit any risk you take. “High risk” only works if your opponent is bad.

After all I could necro and have a crowd of clones that will explode on death. I’d even have a personal portal.

All three of those choices would have a significantly better survivability and likely better damage.

Necros do not have better survivability than a Mesmer. That’s a flipping joke right?

blame the game mode. bunks will always dominate conquest.

Crinn.7864:

After all I could necro and have a crowd of clones that will explode on death. I’d even have a personal portal.

All three of those choices would have a significantly better survivability and likely better damage.

Necros do not have better survivability than a Mesmer. That’s a flipping joke right?

I think he plays a power shatter mesmer and he is right, necro has better survivability in that case.

That´s the main issue that I have with this game. Anet were on constantly equalizing everything. But class diversity is what every MOBA and every RPG makes what it is.
Now we are at the point that everything is playing this hybrit stuff and nothing else is rly viable to play.
Everything has just as much heal as dmg and it all ends in a huge zerg.

They need to strictly adjust every class to what it´s characters are.
Guards should kind of be what they are even named like, teamsupport and some extra heal.
Thieves hight mobility, hight dmg, stealth, glassy but maybe not very 1v1 viable→ like the good old backstabthief was suppost to be.
Ele can be the hybrit something. normal dmg, extra heal and low armor.
Of course brun guards could be viable and make sence. Of course glassy eles make total sense too.
But you have to make a point there.

What is the problem with people wanting everything to have everything.
Is this how you play your rpg in general?
It´s boring and doesn´t work. And we who think like that, have just not that much support, because the whole original spvp community left the game after anet scewed everything up on and on. They are just too many who already gave the game up, me included. (don´t ask me why I´m posting here anyways, I have a lot of time)

Sounds like you might prefer WvW roaming, OP.

Cynz.9437:

They threw that concept out of the window when HoT was designed.

It didn’t exist pre-HoT either, for the most part the only classes that played “risky” glassy builds were the two that had mechanics that made playing glassy less risky than most other classes yet still far more rewarding. High risk would have been something like zerker static discharge engy which of course no one played other than for fun, because mes/thief would eat them for breakfast, were much lower risk and much higher reward.

Stand The Wall.6987:

blame the game mode. bunks will always dominate conquest.

In a game mode that’s about bunkering to win. Bunk or go home. This is why most other PvP games don’t use points in their conquest system. The results are always like this. And not really interesting to just watch a DH, or any bunker-ish class just sit on points.

But ANet choose this for their game, and have no intentions on adding more game modes. So in the end. It is what it is.

Fluffball.8307:

Sounds like you might prefer WvW roaming, OP.

I don’t know I’ve did be bit of streaming this morning in GW2’s WvW on Db, and a stream of another game’s RvR. Comparably the video basically confirmed my beliefs. That WvW is for the most part dead. Barely any fights happening these days compared to other MMORPG’s RvR-like modes.

Most players in GW2’s WvW will just flatout run away from any type of fight, till they have a far superior blob then their enemies. This is thanks to that game mode’s mechanics. In GW2 K-Training, and not engaging is more so rewarding then risking PPK and taking that fight you might lose. As a results fights have very rarely outside of the few hours of NA prime. Other MMORPG’s have RvR fights round the clock even huge fights at 0700. To me at least it just doesn’t seem like GW2 support actually fighting between players like the other games I play.

Again it is what it is. Nothing at all to be angry or salty at.

I dunno, I pretty consistently find good 1v1s or small group fights in WvW. Probably depends on your world and play time. There are also standard dueling spots like the ruins island on the alpine borderland. Which is the stupidest place ever to duel since it’s such a well traveled location, but whatever.

Stand The Wall.6987:

blame the game mode. bunks will always dominate conquest.

Bunks exist because ele , ranger, mesmer, and engi CANNOT build anything that isn’t bunk and not end up farmed by a warrior/DH/thief.

Go play a berk ele/ranger and see how you fare against warrior/thief.

My point is that there is no reward for playing other than the safe “meta” choice. This is the reason for excessive queue stacks and for the current chorus of cries to nerf DH and war + engie.

The game is narrowing and that’s not healthy. This is not a two dimensional video game where you can present 3-5 easily balanced fixed builds with at best.. perhaps 5 combos.

Yes, that would be easy on the devs.. but this is an rpg. I see it going the way of City of Heroes which died when there was a mass exodus. PvP reached a tipping point and everyone just kind of left.

Ithilwen.1529:

My point is that there is no reward for playing other than the safe “meta” choice. This is the reason for excessive queue stacks and for the current chorus of cries to nerf DH and war + engie.

I don’t think you understand how PvP works.

You have no control over your opponents actions, nor do you control what tools your opponent brings to the match. Moreover your goal is to win and win deterministically. Because of this you want builds that adaptable, that can function in a variety of situations. High risk builds don’t do that, the entire “risk” part means that they deprive you of the ability to win deterministically

There never has and never will be a PvP game where high risk, high reward classes are viable.

Zenith.7301:

snipples

nope. its the game mode. while it is true that certain classes cannot use dps builds effectively, there will always be a need for bunkers in conquest.

Ithilwen.1529:

PvP reached a tipping point and everyone just kind of left.

it is really all right since there are still lots of pve players and it is very easy to lure pve players into pvp with some pve rewards.

and you really should try playing warrior and dh as well since you claimed those 2 are easier to play.

how is your hand btw ?
still playing gw2 with primarily one hand and a special mouse ?

Yes I am.. I run a razor naga epic and a razer tartarus. The tartarus was at the suggestion of the community.

And yes, I run most of the functions with the 15 mouse controls on my right hand.

As to running DH and / or War: Those classes don’t really suit my personality or taste. I’d be handicapping my team pretty badly as well, since I have little experience with either class.

They removed even the idea of this concept when they “changed” skills like frenzy to have no drawbacks. Remember when you got quickness but also took 2x damage. That was high-risk, high reward – you could REKT people but also get your own face smashed in.

Instead, everyone has been given so many passives and get-out-jail-free mechanics that there isn’t a way to punish players by opportunistically using a double-edged sword. The closest you have to high-risk, high-reward is something like thief, which is so loaded with evades, shadowsteps, and stealth to get out of any bad situation that the risk is completely mitigated. If you gambit fails and the fight turns, you just go somewhere else. You don’t have to use CD’s to get around the map quickly and create opporunities…all that stuff is recharged in seconds…and other classes don’t even have THAT much risk/reward.

Anet doesn’t design for roles and holes…they just give everyone everything, with each class getting a little bit more of certain things to “specialize.”

Is this thread serious? Mantra Mesmer can global anything that doesn’t proc an immunity. Not to mention their burst potential is on such a short cool down. That’s as high risk and high reward as you can get.

Pyriall.1683:

Is this thread serious? Mantra Mesmer can global anything that doesn’t proc an immunity. Not to mention their burst potential is on such a short cool down. That’s as high risk and high reward as you can get.

I have to assume you are sarcastic here?

Power mesmer still has good burst potential, but usually you need some significant skill differences to pull it off, which in a sense you’re just crippling yourself. With the amount of protection, weakness, stability and immunities flying around, most classes can achieve similar things by playing their own rotations rather than reading opponents.

zinkz, zenith and cinn don´t bother but you have no plan at all. At times you could play like everything glassy and successfull. You could play Mesmer glassy, Ele, Warri, Engi, thief anyways and if I think back for some time, nothing was healing as massiv as now, besides some ele or guard. I can´t remeber TrapCondiRangers beeing very tanky either. Ele worked very well as a glasscannon at times.

For how long did you play spvp in this game if I may ask you. Probably not the first 2 years after release I guess. -_-
Crinn you are talking like you would know the game, but you have no plan at all.
Get out of here.

lol called out brah.
feel the pressure drop.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Zenith.7301:

snipples

nope. its the game mode. while it is true that certain classes cannot use dps builds effectively, there will always be a need for bunkers in conquest.

There was a single bunker build at the early beginnings of the game, and that was the guardian. The rest of the classes ran DPS builds by and large.

Now you only have 3 classes that can run DPS builds: thief, warrior, guardian. Necro runs DPS because it doesn’t even have the options of a bunker build as necro survival tools are pretty terrible and don’t scale to number of opponents.

Zenith.7301:

Stand The Wall.6987:

blame the game mode. bunks will always dominate conquest.

Bunks exist because ele , ranger, mesmer, and engi CANNOT build anything that isn’t bunk and not end up farmed by a warrior/DH/thief.

Go play a berk ele/ranger and see how you fare against warrior/thief.

Yeah, I remember always playing Static Discharge Engi and having fun until a Thief came along. Thieves and Mesmers consider themselves high risk because they apparently have to play riskier amulets, but it is nowhere near as much risk as it is for some other classes if they wanted to build to put out similar damage.

Ithilwen.1529:

My point is that there is no reward for playing other than the safe “meta” choice. This is the reason for excessive queue stacks and for the current chorus of cries to nerf DH and war + engie

Who exactly is asking for Engi nerfs? You’re the only one I’ve seen so far. Engi (Scrapper) is not in an op spot at all right now.

One thing I do hate though is classes being able to do too much at once. As much as Thieves annoy me since it is very difficult to play anything glassy around them, I think they have great design. They may have many options to disengage and reset fights, but they don’t have insane defense or healing to go along with high damage. They may have great evades, but if you catch one, even for a second, you can destroy him.

Now for example another class I have played on, the shoutbow druid. With shoutbow druid, I have many opportunities to reset a fight, I have great support, great ressing, great survival, and pretty nice burst damage. The only sacrifice is that I’m not much of a threat in a team fight.

I don’t feel that bunker classes should be putting out much damage and vise versa. Perhaps the issue is that many skills are not very stat reliant, and some amulets give too much in terms of different stats. Then there is the issues of skills that allow players to defend and attack at the same time. Nearly every class is guilty of this one, including mesmer.

However, unless a massive redesign happens, none of this is going to change much.

Glass cannons generally suck in any competitive pvp game because players are able to take advantage of the fragility of the build. It works in pve because monsters are dumb (full zerker/vipers) but you can’t expect players not to curbstomp people playing stuff like zerker amulet assassins signet thief.

@Ithilwen.1529-Why would you assume sarcasm? Is it because the build, when played correctly, contradicts your narrative? Mantra Mesmer does a ridiculous amount of burst with a very short cool down between burst cycles. AND can be done from stealth. It will global most builds that do not have an immunity and more often ones that do not proc an auto immunity like Defy Pain and Self-Regulating Defenses.

the thing is, bruiser builds beat glass cannon builds. plus we have thieves, who run builds that shut down glass cannons.

so, why would i want to run a glass cannon build? i’m just going to lose 1v1s, die in teamfights & get farmed by thieves.

BlackBeard.2873:

Anet doesn’t design for roles and holes…they just give everyone everything, with each class getting a little bit more of certain things to “specialize.”

The necromancer still exist, so that isn’t entirely true. Quickness should come with a cost and the fact that it doesn’t is extremely idiotic.

Pyriall.1683:

@Ithilwen.1529-Why would you assume sarcasm? Is it because the build, when played correctly, contradicts your narrative? Mantra Mesmer does a ridiculous amount of burst with a very short cool down between burst cycles. AND can be done from stealth. It will global most builds that do not have an immunity and more often ones that do not proc an auto immunity like Defy Pain and Self-Regulating Defenses.

Please do post that build. I don’t think it exists.. but I’d be happy to test the idea. I thought you were sarcastic because your claim sounded, well, chimerical.

Again, please post that build, I’d love to try it.

Ithilwen.1529:

I thought you were sarcastic because your claim sounded, well, chimerical.

Dang girl, dropping that sick vocab.

That’s kind of my point folks. There’s no reward for playing a glass cannon build. That’s why everybody runs the same semi- bunker , bland and middle-of-the-road build.

It’s also why classes like DH and War dominate the queues.

Ithilwen.1529:

Pyriall.1683:

@Ithilwen.1529-Why would you assume sarcasm? Is it because the build, when played correctly, contradicts your narrative? Mantra Mesmer does a ridiculous amount of burst with a very short cool down between burst cycles. AND can be done from stealth. It will global most builds that do not have an immunity and more often ones that do not proc an auto immunity like Defy Pain and Self-Regulating Defenses.

Please do post that build. I don’t think it exists.. but I’d be happy to test the idea. I thought you were sarcastic because your claim sounded, well, chimerical.

Again, please post that build, I’d love to try it.

I have fought a build much like the one mentioned on a duel server. Was just messing around, but the damage that was done in just a single moment was enough to drop me into down state, and the attack came from stealth. Can’t remember the build, but it most definitely does exist.

Ithilwen.1529:

Pyriall.1683:

@Ithilwen.1529-Why would you assume sarcasm? Is it because the build, when played correctly, contradicts your narrative? Mantra Mesmer does a ridiculous amount of burst with a very short cool down between burst cycles. AND can be done from stealth. It will global most builds that do not have an immunity and more often ones that do not proc an auto immunity like Defy Pain and Self-Regulating Defenses.

Please do post that build. I don’t think it exists.. but I’d be happy to test the idea. I thought you were sarcastic because your claim sounded, well, chimerical.

Again, please post that build, I’d love to try it.

It’s the standard power mantra build- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAsfRl0nhy0YJawGNwtGLnGUZGaeCIDwCW+5Tiy1B-TpRBABAcIAM+IA8wJAgsyAR8AAua/BA

Though I have seen you play and you aren’t going to be able to pull off the combo with any consistency, but that’s not the fault of the build.

Pyriall.1683:

Ithilwen.1529:

Pyriall.1683:

@Ithilwen.1529-Why would you assume sarcasm? Is it because the build, when played correctly, contradicts your narrative? Mantra Mesmer does a ridiculous amount of burst with a very short cool down between burst cycles. AND can be done from stealth. It will global most builds that do not have an immunity and more often ones that do not proc an auto immunity like Defy Pain and Self-Regulating Defenses.

Please do post that build. I don’t think it exists.. but I’d be happy to test the idea. I thought you were sarcastic because your claim sounded, well, chimerical.

Again, please post that build, I’d love to try it.

It’s the standard power mantra build- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAsfRl0nhy0YJawGNwtGLnGUZGaeCIDwCW+5Tiy1B-TpRBABAcIAM+IA8wJAgsyAR8AAua/BA

Though I have seen you play and you aren’t going to be able to pull off the combo with any consistency, but that’s not the fault of the build.

That’s cold.

PlatinumMember.5274:

Pyriall.1683:

Ithilwen.1529:

Pyriall.1683:

@Ithilwen.1529-Why would you assume sarcasm? Is it because the build, when played correctly, contradicts your narrative? Mantra Mesmer does a ridiculous amount of burst with a very short cool down between burst cycles. AND can be done from stealth. It will global most builds that do not have an immunity and more often ones that do not proc an auto immunity like Defy Pain and Self-Regulating Defenses.

Please do post that build. I don’t think it exists.. but I’d be happy to test the idea. I thought you were sarcastic because your claim sounded, well, chimerical.

Again, please post that build, I’d love to try it.

It’s the standard power mantra build- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAsfRl0nhy0YJawGNwtGLnGUZGaeCIDwCW+5Tiy1B-TpRBABAcIAM+IA8wJAgsyAR8AAua/BA

Though I have seen you play and you aren’t going to be able to pull off the combo with any consistency, but that’s not the fault of the build.

That’s cold.

its also true

Adapt or find a new game.

Crinn.7864:

Ithilwen.1529:

Taking risk is the point of gaming. It is the heart and soul of playing a “hero.” Sadly, the community has largely taken up the idea of minimizing risk and maximizing gain.. even at the cost of diminishing the game.

This has nothing to do with “the community.” and everything to do with how winning works.

Humans are intelligent and humans will exploit any risk you take. “High risk” only works if your opponent is bad.

No. “High risk” only works if you stick the landing.

By the way, are we calling Mesmer high risk/high reward? I thought they were OP…

When I think high risk, I think Berserker Thief

R O C.6574:

When I think high risk, I think Berserker Thief

No zerk thief has a extremely low margin of error. Margin of error is not related to how risky it is.
The margin of error for performing a major surgery is very low, but a surgery done by a experienced surgeon has very little risk.

High risk would be something like going for niflhel beast when the other team’s thief’s whereabouts are unknown.

Crinn.7864:

R O C.6574:

When I think high risk, I think Berserker Thief

No zerk thief has a extremely low margin of error. Margin of error is not related to how risky it is.
The margin of error for performing a major surgery is very low, but a surgery done by a experienced surgeon has very little risk.

High risk would be something like going for niflhel beast when the other team’s thief’s whereabouts are unknown.

Actually zerker thief would be at risk constantly simply because he has no way to tell which passives are up on target. One passive can mess you up so badly on zerker thief, you will probably end up at spawn.

Cynz.9437:

Actually zerker thief would be at risk constantly simply because he has no way to tell which passives are up on target. One passive can mess you up so badly on zerker thief, you will probably end up at spawn.

I’m sorry I can’t think of any passive that is going to kill you. Maybe if your one of those thieves that just AAs into EP while the warrior wails on their face.

All zerk thief means is that you have to be on the ball with evades, rotations, and positioning.

R O C.6574:

Crinn.7864:

Ithilwen.1529:

Taking risk is the point of gaming. It is the heart and soul of playing a “hero.” Sadly, the community has largely taken up the idea of minimizing risk and maximizing gain.. even at the cost of diminishing the game.

This has nothing to do with “the community.” and everything to do with how winning works.

Humans are intelligent and humans will exploit any risk you take. “High risk” only works if your opponent is bad.

No. “High risk” only works if you stick the landing.

By the way, are we calling Mesmer high risk/high reward? I thought they were OP…

When I think high risk, I think Berserker Thief

High risk high reward build, I have said before, Fresh Air ele. In between the lightning procs to air attunement, you have to position ground targeted AoEs into some of your burst combos, manage kiting and manage your defenses well otherwise you’re very much dead. Thief at best is moderate, with on demand disengage on demand, stealth/target drop and damage with less the effort.

High Risk High Reward builds are not competative in the world of Conquest Spvp, maybe in a arena style 1v1s yeah, but most of the time now a days High Risk High Reward builds are something you take to duel servers or WvW roaming for garnering respect for playing something not many people know how to play. This is why we see mostly the safe meta builds in ranked, rather then the risky skillful builds. Because running super duper high risky builds are minimizing your chance for winning the game for your team, since most people look at it in a light where it’s what do you contribute to a team?

Lucentfir.7430:

R O C.6574:

Crinn.7864:

Ithilwen.1529:

Taking risk is the point of gaming. It is the heart and soul of playing a “hero.” Sadly, the community has largely taken up the idea of minimizing risk and maximizing gain.. even at the cost of diminishing the game.

This has nothing to do with “the community.” and everything to do with how winning works.

Humans are intelligent and humans will exploit any risk you take. “High risk” only works if your opponent is bad.

No. “High risk” only works if you stick the landing.

By the way, are we calling Mesmer high risk/high reward? I thought they were OP…

When I think high risk, I think Berserker Thief

High risk high reward build, I have said before, Fresh Air ele. In between the lightning procs to air attunement, you have to position ground targeted AoEs into some of your burst combos, manage kiting and manage your defenses well otherwise you’re very much dead. Thief at best is moderate, with on demand disengage on demand, stealth/target drop and damage with less the effort.

High Risk High Reward builds are not competative in the world of Conquest Spvp, maybe in a arena style 1v1s yeah, but most of the time now a days High Risk High Reward builds are something you take to duel servers or WvW roaming for garnering respect for playing something not many people know how to play. This is why we see mostly the safe meta builds in ranked, rather then the risky skillful builds. Because running super duper high risky builds are minimizing your chance for winning the game for your team, since most people look at it in a light where it’s what do you contribute to a team?

Bunker builds with good cc are my go to for conquest. You can decap/cap points without doing any damage XD

Crinn.7864:

Cynz.9437:

Actually zerker thief would be at risk constantly simply because he has no way to tell which passives are up on target. One passive can mess you up so badly on zerker thief, you will probably end up at spawn.

I’m sorry I can’t think of any passive that is going to kill you. Maybe if your one of those thieves that just AAs into EP while the warrior wails on their face.

All zerk thief means is that you have to be on the ball with evades, rotations, and positioning.

Go make zerker thief and engage a DH

@gw niko.1049: used to be possible, not anymore since they changed amulet stats and everything became so spammy, loaded with AoS, boons and passives.
I actually miss hambow meta, there were few a bit too strong things but generally it was all about resource management, timing etc. All gone. Game is playing itself now for most part, all for the sake for casuals, bad players and pve’ers (no offense, but it is true).

At least everyone who played the first 1-1,5 years of spvp knows(or should know) that
zerks should be quite possible to be played in spvp successfully.
There were also tank versions of classes. For example the tankyest ones like cele ele and tank guard.
There were here and there some balance issues, but it was in any case better than today.

The problem is that the balance between dmg, heal and defence is just in a very bad state.
Everything is permahealing against to much.
Heal dominates the game to much.

quote from a nother thread
“Gw2 pvp used to be all about dodging high impact skills/combos or baiting dodges so you can land yours” And who would even arguee with that, besides some pve people(oh I love this gentle language).
I totally think he got it on the point with this.
And I know it could be like that, because it basicely already was like that at times.
Anet just totally scewed it up, because they never had a plan of spvp and don´t have it now.
Of course I do understand why all this pve people, who are also like the majority in spvp today, totally fine with this passiv hybrit game how it is today -_-. But this spvp was suppost to be some kind of competetive if you understand what I´m saying.

@Cynz, Thank you.