Hit mid dodge roll is back

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

Just logged to see if i still suck ( i do) and i’ve noticed that not only the game sucks, i also suck but now you’re BEING HIT MID DODGE ROLL AGAIN.

Nice.

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Posted by: ronpierce.2760

ronpierce.2760

Just recently, I, myself, have returned to GW2 to see if I personally still suck, and of course I do. However, I’ve definitely been hit by things like net shot and rapid fire mid-roll. I just haven’t said much because I don’t really understand the cause of it. Generally speaking, I don’t lag very much. I just figured it was a weird mishap.

High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)

(edited by ronpierce.2760)

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Posted by: Lordrosicky.5813

Lordrosicky.5813

Just logged to see if i still suck ( i do) and i’ve noticed that not only the game sucks, i also suck but now you’re BEING HIT MID DODGE ROLL AGAIN.

Nice.

I also started playing again recently to see if i still suck and i do too. I also would say ive been pinned down by a warrior at least 100 times mid dodge role. I know this because you cant dodge immobalised and yet i dodge and get immobed mid dodge. Pls fix this mid dodge bug with pin down

Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.

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Posted by: sorrychief.2563

sorrychief.2563

i too have also started playing again recently to see if i still suck and i still do. i would say ive been ganked by thieves at least 100 times mid dodge role. I know this because you cant dodge thief focus and yet i dodge and get blown up. Pls fix this mid dodge bug with thieves

champion magus
previously rank 2 on old leaderboards
EG.secret.OG.NAVI.sorrychief

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Posted by: Erzian.5218

Erzian.5218

I always thought it was a ping/lag related issue. The dodge aimation seems to not require an immediate response from the server (similar to walking around).
You recognize this when you are about to lose connection or having a high ping spike: You cannot use any skills or swap weapons, but you can still move and dodge.
So basically when either you or the server is lagging, the dodges on your screen and the actual dodges are not snychronized, thus you can be hit during dodge rolls.
I don’t think it is a bug or related to pin down (as I have been hit by numerous attacks in pve during a dodge roll) but related to the performance of your connection to the server/the server performance.
Of course, I might be wrong but this is the impression I got/get from playing with an instable connection. I never ever had the mid dodge roll issue when I still had good internet connection.

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Posted by: shimmerless.4560

shimmerless.4560

You can still get killed/take damage during distortion too, lulz.

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

Aye, normally you’d press a command, it gets sent to the server, the server validates it and says ok, then executes it, and your incoming stream gets processed and your graphical information gets redrawn showing you execute that command. For dodge, it is started at client side then the fact that you are dodging gets sent to the server for it to use to grant you evasion of attacks for the duration. So in the case of dodging, you see yourself dodging before the server does, so there is a period between the start of the dodge and when it gets to their server and is validated and recognised where you can still be hit. As mentioned for skills, the hit is determined at server side, so if the server registers that you’ve been hit just before it receives the information that you started a dodge 20-40ms ago, it has already sent the information to your computer to say you’ve been hit and took x amount of damage. So you can see yourself getting hit during a dodge within the duration it takes information to travel from your computer to the server and back, from the start of that dodge. It’s not something ANet can fix, because in the scenario your computer "knows it is executing a dodge" but the server "knows you took the hit."

Edit: Actually what am I saying? Of course it can be fixed. It would just be extremely fiddly and difficult, and create other problems. For example, let’s say your client has the ability to say, "hang on, I’m dodging, I’m not taking that hit." By which time the server now knows you dodged, and needs to amend the values involved, such as your health, your endurance, and the other player’s facts like if it was a thief that used flanking strike, it would have turned over to larcenous strike. What’s more, the other player, and all other players in the area, would have seen you take the hit. You’re now out of sync, and re-syncing would be confusing, and people would then be complaining not that they got hit mid dodge, but their hit was evaded when their target wasn’t dodging! Imagine seeing you hit land, then suddenly the target dodges, their health from that hit is restored, you get a seemingly random "evaded!" floating notice, and any skills you had unlocked resulting from that hit get turned back. It gets worse. What if you activated that turned over skill you were not meant to have before the resync? What if the player went down, and you see them suddenly get back up with a dodge instead? What if you had started stomping and tanked some damage to do so, only to find the player didn’t actually go down and you went from winning to almost dead? Getting hit mid dodge is the simpler and less chaotic problem of the two to pick.

EU | Ímpáct / Impact Warlock / Impact Illusions
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780

(edited by Impact.2780)

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Posted by: ronpierce.2760

ronpierce.2760

We’re doomed. All is vain.

High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)

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Posted by: Aereniel.7356

Aereniel.7356

All is vain.

Neva 4get.

Been here since launch
Legend S1-S3 with 100% solo queue 100% conquest
Filthy casual, 6k sPvP games

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

Aye, normally you’d press a command, it gets sent to the server, the server validates it and says ok, then executes it, and your incoming stream gets processed and your graphical information gets redrawn showing you execute that command. For dodge, it is started at client side then the fact that you are dodging gets sent to the server for it to use to grant you evasion of attacks for the duration. So in the case of dodging, you see yourself dodging before the server does, so there is a period between the start of the dodge and when it gets to their server and is validated and recognised where you can still be hit. As mentioned for skills, the hit is determined at server side, so if the server registers that you’ve been hit just before it receives the information that you started a dodge 20-40ms ago, it has already sent the information to your computer to say you’ve been hit and took x amount of damage. So you can see yourself getting hit during a dodge within the duration it takes information to travel from your computer to the server and back, from the start of that dodge. It’s not something ANet can fix, because in the scenario your computer “knows it is executing a dodge” but the server “knows you took the hit.”

Edit: Actually what am I saying? Of course it can be fixed. It would just be extremely fiddly and difficult, and create other problems. For example, let’s say your client has the ability to say, “hang on, I’m dodging, I’m not taking that hit.” By which time the server now knows you dodged, and needs to amend the values involved, such as your health, your endurance, and the other player’s facts like if it was a thief that used flanking strike, it would have turned over to larcenous strike. What’s more, the other player, and all other players in the area, would have seen you take the hit. You’re now out of sync, and re-syncing would be confusing, and people would then be complaining not that they got hit mid dodge, but their hit was evaded when their target wasn’t dodging! Imagine seeing you hit land, then suddenly the target dodges, their health from that hit is restored, you get a seemingly random “evaded!” floating notice, and any skills you had unlocked resulting from that hit get turned back. It gets worse. What if you activated that turned over skill you were not meant to have before the resync? What if the player went down, and you see them suddenly get back up with a dodge instead? What if you had started stomping and tanked some damage to do so, only to find the player didn’t actually go down and you went from winning to almost dead? Getting hit mid dodge is the simpler and less chaotic problem of the two to pick.

It’s no latency.

if u have high latency you’ll see a desync between your dodge and your endurance bar depleting ( basically the thing you’re saying).

I’m talking about a totally different problem, or rather dodge roll evasion frames are bugged.

It’s pretty clear when you run caltrops on dodge on thief and u dodge , hear the caltrops ( which happen at the same time of the evasion frames) and you still get hit by random hits.

It happens mostly at the start of the dodge roll.

it’s even more visible on pin down due to its duration: when it happens, you get immob’d and stuck within the dodge animation.

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

Of course it’s latency. Even if you’re not lagging, it still takes time to communicate with the server. That time frame is where the issue can present itself, and is precisely why it happens at the start of a dodge, and not toward the end. Effects that are triggered on dodge still trigger because you still dodged. You just got hit within the window in which the server did not know you were dodging.

EU | Ímpáct / Impact Warlock / Impact Illusions
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

Of course it’s latency. Even if you’re not lagging, it still takes time to communicate with the server. That time frame is where the issue can present itself, and is precisely why it happens at the start of a dodge, and not toward the end. Effects that are triggered on dodge still trigger because you still dodged. You just got hit within the window in which the server did not know you were dodging.

Again, the phenomena you’re describing is not latency.

it’s server desyncing.

it’s the same thing happening when u magnet pull and people skyrocket into space.

it’s a bad server issue by anet.

they’re TOTALLY not the same thing

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

It’s nothing like shooting up in the air. That’s a problem in the code, not communication timings. I’ll happily debate this with you, but I’m not going to part-take in:
- "again, yes it is"
- "again, no it isn’t"
- "is"
- "isn’t"
- etc.

EU | Ímpáct / Impact Warlock / Impact Illusions
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

It’s nothing like shooting up in the air. That’s a problem in the code, not communication timings. I’ll happily debate this with you, but I’m not going to part-take in:
- “again, yes it is”
- “again, no it isn’t”
- “is”
- “isn’t”
- etc.

I’m not going to debate anything.

You simply don’t have the knowledge to understand this it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latency_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag#Client-side

Basically, with a 20 ms latency ( if u have more i would suggest to not play online games at all) the “exit” loop is totally synced with the server output, ending with an immediate command.

If server data processing is slow, it ends with small delays called “desyncs”, something totally different from experienced latency.

Client Lag= your ms is high, the data you send takes unnecessary jumps and ARRIVES too late to the server, which, however, sends it back almost instantly

Desync= your ms is normal, the data you send goes straight into the server BUT it will send it back with a small delay, due to various reasons ( bad gateways, too many people sending data from the same place, mostly to german servers etc. etc.).

Server side lag= the worst possible desync scenario. Crashes, huge lag for all people playing in that server, disconnects.

This problem has been here for AGES and it goes back and forth with some patches.

Basically aNet servers suck balls.

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Posted by: Cenile.8340

Cenile.8340

What can be done about it? I have this problem a lot. I play from .au which is most likely the cause.
I feel that if I get hit while dodging, then my endurance shouldn’t go down. Maybe then I will be able to learn to play with the handicap.

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Posted by: Archaon.9524

Archaon.9524

Of course it’s latency. Even if you’re not lagging, it still takes time to communicate with the server. That time frame is where the issue can present itself, and is precisely why it happens at the start of a dodge, and not toward the end. Effects that are triggered on dodge still trigger because you still dodged. You just got hit within the window in which the server did not know you were dodging.

nah it’s not…hitting mid dodge aswell as immob bug have nothing to do with latency

stomp bug where ppl appear downed in one place while they’re under or above is caused by latency…but this is not the case…

I bet also getting stuck into walls is desync related then…

lol

Let alone desync problems are still anet’s fault

crap servers are crap, this is not zerg vs zerg where ppl dunno how to dodge anyway…in pvp if you can’t dodge you die..

Ark 2nd Account

(edited by Archaon.9524)

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Posted by: Eyia Hellhide.7320

Eyia Hellhide.7320

It’s nothing like shooting up in the air. That’s a problem in the code, not communication timings. I’ll happily debate this with you, but I’m not going to part-take in:
- “again, yes it is”
- “again, no it isn’t”
- “is”
- “isn’t”
- etc.

I’m not going to debate anything.

You simply don’t have the knowledge to understand this it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latency_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag#Client-side

Now this is funny. So, you’re arguing with a programmer, telling him he knows nothing, and you’re using as a source of your knowledge… wikipedia?

It’s just like if you go to a doctor, because you have a headache, and after examination he tells you “you have neuralgia”. And then you start to shout: “Of course it’s not neuralgia, it’s a brain tumor, don’t you read wikipedia idiot, all the symptoms are there…”

The night is dark and full of turnips.

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Posted by: LionZero.3479

LionZero.3479

It’s not just dodge, it’s also skills like swoop second uplifting evade part (which is a pain if an immobilise hits you there in the evade frame and causes mid air immo lockdown ^^). lightning reflexes, withdraw and probably many more.

Though i take it this problem is even more apparent in wvwvw where servers have an even harder time keeping up with positional info.

As with many bugs in this game, it’s quite likely a byproduct of the client sided positioning forwarding to servers where the server decides you’re still in an older position the moment the skill got released.

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

It’s nothing like shooting up in the air. That’s a problem in the code, not communication timings. I’ll happily debate this with you, but I’m not going to part-take in:
- “again, yes it is”
- “again, no it isn’t”
- “is”
- “isn’t”
- etc.

I’m not going to debate anything.

You simply don’t have the knowledge to understand this it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latency_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag#Client-side

Now this is funny. So, you’re arguing with a programmer, telling him he knows nothing, and you’re using as a source of your knowledge… wikipedia?

It’s just like if you go to a doctor, because you have a headache, and after examination he tells you “you have neuralgia”. And then you start to shout: “Of course it’s not neuralgia, it’s a brain tumor, don’t you read wikipedia idiot, all the symptoms are there…”

He may be a programmer, doesn’t change the fact that the issue is not related with latency at all, not client side at least.

as someone else said, this issur is even more present in WvW where servers hardly keep up with your positioning due to massive amount of data input.

it’s not that hard to understand it’s server-side problem, even more if you’re a “programmer”.

Moreover 20ms (my standard connection, aside random server lag by aNet fault) give 0 desync issue even in first person shooters.

I don’t even know why we’re still arguing tbh.

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Posted by: edgarallanpwn.8739

edgarallanpwn.8739

It’s nothing like shooting up in the air. That’s a problem in the code, not communication timings. I’ll happily debate this with you, but I’m not going to part-take in:
- “again, yes it is”
- “again, no it isn’t”
- “is”
- “isn’t”
- etc.

I’m not going to debate anything.

You simply don’t have the knowledge to understand this it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latency_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag#Client-side

Now this is funny. So, you’re arguing with a programmer, telling him he knows nothing, and you’re using as a source of your knowledge… wikipedia?

It’s just like if you go to a doctor, because you have a headache, and after examination he tells you “you have neuralgia”. And then you start to shout: “Of course it’s not neuralgia, it’s a brain tumor, don’t you read wikipedia idiot, all the symptoms are there…”

He may be a programmer, doesn’t change the fact that the issue is not related with latency at all, not client side at least.

as someone else said, this issur is even more present in WvW where servers hardly keep up with your positioning due to massive amount of data input.

it’s not that hard to understand it’s server-side problem, even more if you’re a “programmer”.

Moreover 20ms (my standard connection, aside random server lag by aNet fault) give 0 desync issue even in first person shooters.

I don’t even know why we’re still arguing tbh.

AS a systems engineer with a perfect network at home, and no latency issues and no problems.. definitely agree. It’s pretty obvious how this works. People who aren’t network engineers want to be ultracrepidarians though… and that’s fine. It just means they won’t ever solve their problem as they will continue looking in the wrong place.

You tried man, thanks for trying to help someone out.

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

Why are we arguing, you ask?

It’s no latency.

if u have high latency you’ll see a desync between your dodge and your endurance bar depleting ( basically the thing you’re saying).

I’m talking about a totally different problem, or rather dodge roll evasion frames are bugged.

Ok, it’s not latency which causes desync which is the issue. It’s something totally different.

Again, the phenomena you’re describing is not latency.

it’s server desyncing.

Wait, now I’m not describing latency, and you’re saying it IS desyncing?

^ That’s why. Not only have you not decided what you want to argue for yet, but you haven’t decided what I was saying yet either. So we’re kind of on hold. Also, those wikipedia pages said pretty much exactly the same thing I described, they just explained it in detail rather than using an example.

EU | Ímpáct / Impact Warlock / Impact Illusions
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

So, using wikipedia.

"This need to communicate causes a delay between the clients and the server, and is the fundamental cause behind lag. While there may be numerous underlying reasons for why a player experiences lag, they can be summarized as insufficient hardware in either the client or the server, or a poor connection between the client and server."

You completely left out the most common and significant cause of communication delays. Not at the client, not at the server, but the multiple server hops inbetween, and the communication lines between each of those. If a signal you sent to ANet is on its way let’s say on the 10th/12th hop, ANet’s server isn’t going to know about it - not yet.

"The frame rate (or tick rate) of the server determines how often it can process data from clients and send updates. This type of problem is difficult to predict and compensate for. Apart from enforcing minimum hardware requirements and attempting to optimize the game for better performance, there are no feasible ways to deal with it."

There is some more delay between registering input from clients. This delay, much like that of preparing data for transmission, encapsulating it, transmitting it, the time it’s spent traveling the net, received, reconstructed and error checked, and passed up to the application level, is unavoidable. Sure improving the hardware will help minimize it, as will as optimizing code, but there are essential difficulties inherent in software engineering that simply cannot be overcome - at least not any time soon (talking decades here). Regardless, if you constantly improve response times by 50%, you’ll never reach 0, and doing so is a slow process and 50% is extremely optimistic - I just used a bigger number for emphasis.

And yes, wikipedia says that too! "Perhaps the most common type of lag is caused by network performance problems."

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

And just for clarification here, because I think you might be missing the link between latency and lag: "Latency is a time interval between the stimulation and response, or, from a more general point of view, as a time delay between the cause and the effect of some physical change in the system being observed." You see, latency is latency, and lag is lag, but latency includes lag. Latency is also one of the potential causes of lag, but regardless of its cause, adds to your latency.

The client-side section on wikipedia is actually well written, so imagine that <here> I just quoted the whole lot of it for you to read (I know, lame that you linked it to me now I’m linking it to you.. Childlike comebacks right? But seriously, if you didn’t read it yet, do, it explains in detail everything I said). Basically, as a means to combat high latency, one or two techniques are employed: extrapolation and interpolation. If you’ve read it, you’ll now understand that extrapolation is one of the causes of the desync you see when someone goes down but you can’t stomp them. That is because a delay caused the client to predict where the player was going to be, but he went down. (The other cause is when that player is lagging and rubberbands after going down. Either way, this is something that can be fixed by ANet either by a fix at server or client-side, forcing the game to update the position of the downed player - this is why it fixes itself when they move using a downed skill, for example). Now, the very fact that these measures are invoked prove that a desync has been caused by latency. The techniques rarely succeed in rectifying the problem, and instead attempt to minimize its effects. Make no mistake, just because the measures to minimize the effects of lag are on the client, does not mean the problem was with the server. It could have been at the client, at the server, or anywhere inbetween. Latency. A good example of this is when you and your buddies are not lagging, but see someone that is rubberbanding everywhere. That rubberbanding on your screen is caused by extrapolation, and yet you are not lagging, meaning there is no lag at your computer, the server, or anywhere inbetween. It’s at the client or route between the server and client of that player. This often leads to desyncs, not caused by the server, and yes caused by latency.

"Often, in order to allow smooth gameplay, the client is allowed to do soft changes to the game state. While the server may ultimately keep track of ammunition, health, position etc., the client may be allowed to predict the new server-side game state based on the player’s actions, such as allowing a player to start moving before the server has responded to the command. These changes will generally be accepted under normal conditions and make delay mostly transparent. Problems will arise only in the case of high delays or losses, when the clients predictions are very noticeably undone by the server. Sometimes, in the case of minor differences, the server may even allow "incorrect" changes to the state based on updates from the client."

This is exactly what I was talking about. And yup, even wikipedia says it’s caused by high delays or losses, A.K.A lag and thus latency.

Oh there’s something I didn’t see mentioned on wikipedia, which is a possibility (although I didn’t skim through all of it). It says this: "As clients are normally not allowed to define the main game state, but rather receive it from the server, the main task of the client-side compensation is to render the virtual world as accurately as possible. As updates come with a delay and may even be dropped, it is sometimes necessary for the client to predict the flow of the game." But doesn’t say that packet loss can also occur at client-side, completely unrelated to the client, if there are some networking flags set which your hardware is too old to recognise.

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

So, using wikipedia.

bla bla bla

Dear good do u really think anyone’s gonna read dat wall of text.

Dude u really don’t understand, i’ll try to break it up for you.

Normal process

- Input= dodge press

Data processed

- Server output= endurance deplated

Client server lag

- input= dodge press

trololol LAG

data processed

- Serve output= endurance depleted

Desyncs

- Input= dodge press

data processing →trolololol LAG

- server output = endurance depleted

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Posted by: William C.6195

William C.6195

So, using wikipedia.

bla bla bla

Dear good do u really think anyone’s gonna read dat wall of text.

Doesn’t read the post. Still argues. Logic.

Let me condense that terribly long paragraph of text for you:

Impact is right. The mid-dodge roll hit bug is primarily caused by latency. Whether not the latency is caused on a server or client side is a different matter entirely.

The rubber-banding and ‘unstompable’ player bugs are caused by desyncing of the client and server which is caused by the interaction of latency and positional extrapolation.

Hopefully that makes clearer.

The only thing I can think of to combat this is to increase the time within the animation that allows a dodge, so that, theoretically, you’re giving the server and client longer to communicate and decide on what actually happened. This is basically what was being suggest with the whole ‘animation frames’ thing.

It’s not exactly a proper fix… It won’t reduce latency. But it might improve the player experience when dealing with high latency.

NA/EU: Auldon/Auldone
[feat]

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

So, using wikipedia.

bla bla bla

Dear good do u really think anyone’s gonna read dat wall of text.

Doesn’t read the post. Still argues. Logic.

Let me condense that terribly long paragraph of text for you:

Impact is right. The mid-dodge roll hit bug is primarily caused by latency. Whether not the latency is caused on a server or client side is a different matter entirely.

The rubber-banding and ‘unstompable’ player bugs are caused by desyncing of the client and server which is caused by the interaction of latency and positional extrapolation.

Hopefully that makes clearer.

The only thing I can think of to combat this is to increase the time within the animation that allows a dodge, so that, theoretically, you’re giving the server and client longer to communicate and decide on what actually happened. This is basically what was being suggest with the whole ‘animation frames’ thing.

It’s not exactly a proper fix… It won’t reduce latency. But it might improve the player experience when dealing with high latency.

You got it yet you still say he’s right roflmao

there’s a big difference in these 2 scenarios.

In client side issues you know you’re lagging, while during desyncs the game on YOUR part seems flawless BUT the server disagrees, cuz it thinks your doing something else.

Basically one can be prevented, the other one is totally random for the player.

way worse cuz trickier and could happen in any major tournament and players ( and casters) may not even realize it

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

Yeah sorry for the length, but I figured going into yet more detail might help, so I copied, pasted and commented on some of that information from wikipedia. I didn’t write as much as it seems; at least half of it is quoted from the wikipedia page for lag. Alas, too little gets contradicted, a little more doesn’t get understood or provide sufficient clarity, and a little more again gets ignored! What more can one do =P.

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