Guild Wars 2

Let’s say we have 2 players A and B. A has an MMR of 1000, and B has an MMR of 2000. Both starts at division One.

Both A and B would have an expected win rate of 50%, since the system will try to match them with similar skilled players. This means B can gain division faster by tanking their MMR purposely. This is not healthy. There is no reason to keep a higher MMR in the new league system.

In fact, higher MMR is bad because:

• Higher MMR gives the player less win %, since they are matched with stronger opponents, without any extra rewards.
• Longer queue time (look at Nos’ 20m queue)

Suggested solutions: higher MMR should gain rewards track faster. A 2000 MMR player should gain rewards 100% faster than a 1000 MMR. (numbers are subjected to discuss)

If higher MMR doesn’t increase the rewards, there is no incentive for players to keep their high MMR. A lot of people will try to throw the games at the start of new division (they can’t lose division) so they have a low MMR to carry them through the next division. That’s not healthy.

why not just remove MMR completely and matches players accordingly based on their leagues, tiers and pips ?

for example,
in blue team, we have,
john, amber league, tier 3, 4/5 pips,
mary, amber league, tier 2, 0/5 pips
jane, amber league, tier 1, 4/5 pips
sue, amber league, tier 2, 3/5 pips
jess, amber league, tier 3, 1/5 pips
versus

in red team, we have
joe, amber league, tier 1, 0/5 pips
maria, amber league, tier 1, 1/5 pips
jenny, amber league, tier 1, 2/5 pips
susan, amber league, tier 1, 4/5 pips
jessica, amber league, tier 1, 3/5 pips

so, clearly, blue team members won more games than red team, and with that, simply, blue team should have higher chance of winning. simple as that.

say just for easy match making purposes, the system simply predicts blue team to win, so if blue team wins, they earn 1 pips. if red team wins, they earn more than 1 pip perhaps? since red team is predicted to lose. but blue team will not lose pips because amber league is the 1st division where teams do not lose pips for losing matches.

i think this type of match making will cut down queue time.
instead of relying on MMR which is not accurate anyway, and takes a long queue time.

MMR still needs to be there for good match making. Remember all the cry on forums about bad/blown out matches when ANet reset the MMR? MMR is stable now, so we have fewer complain about that.

Since MMR is an important factor for good match making, we can’t throw it away. The best we can do is to reward high MMR people more to compensate them for longer queue and harder matchup.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

for example,
in blue team, we have,
john,
mary,
jane,
sue,
jess,
versus

in red team, we have
joe,
maria,
jenny,
susan,
jessica,

8 out of 10 grills? wat

Sunshine.5014:

MMR still needs to be there for good match making. Remember all the cry on forums about bad/blown out matches when ANet reset the MMR? MMR is stable now, so we have fewer complain about that.

Since MMR is an important factor for good match making, we can’t throw it away. The best we can do is to reward high MMR people more to compensate them for longer queue and harder matchup.

i think ppl want faster queues

infantrydiv.1620:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

for example,
in blue team, we have,
john,
mary,
jane,
sue,
jess,
versus

in red team, we have
joe,
maria,
jenny,
susan,
jessica,

8 out of 10 grills? wat

harem team match up yo!

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Sunshine.5014:

MMR still needs to be there for good match making. Remember all the cry on forums about bad/blown out matches when ANet reset the MMR? MMR is stable now, so we have fewer complain about that.

Since MMR is an important factor for good match making, we can’t throw it away. The best we can do is to reward high MMR people more to compensate them for longer queue and harder matchup.

i think ppl want faster queues

infantrydiv.1620:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

for example,
in blue team, we have,
john,
mary,
jane,
sue,
jess,
versus

in red team, we have
joe,
maria,
jenny,
susan,
jessica,

8 out of 10 grills? wat

harem team match up yo!

Faster queue would be the best; however, it’s a fact that higher MMR has longer query time. Higher MMR should have better rewards to compensate for that.

P.S: kitten lucky John and Joe xD

It’s a ladder isn’kitten Meaning you have to beat the people above you to advance.

If low MMR ppl move up early they will just be beaten by the high MMR people later?

Unless the tournament length is ridiculously short.

I’d rather see a permanent leaderboard that never resets, and then tournaments ON TOP of that.

Wait if it goes like match up, why we assume the first filter will be the MMR?

Iterate like this.
[pre]
$players = Array(200 player);

// Have enough player to set up a match within division.
if($players->inTheSameDivision() > 10) {
// Players being split into 2 team with the current matchmaking system
// based on MMR, and the better players will move to higher division over time.
} else {
// Matchmake with players from lower or higher division
// But with different objectives, we know even if a team loses against
# a higher division as long as they perfomed good, they get their reward.
}
[/pre]

It’s always good to have low MMR if you wana win a match but if you are a good player over just pure avarages you will move to higher divisions till you get to your place.

(just a made up syntax to try to explain how I think the matchmaking will go)

I’ve been championing this issue for over a year. Higher MMR players need better rewards – not just because of q times, but because they face harder matches. Blindingly obvious.

Have you guys every played one of the other title out there e.g. lol/dota/smite/sc2/hearthstone who are also using a league system?

Yes, the risk exists, that Anet will screw up the system, but I guess they will just copy the league-system of one of the more popular games, and they are solving the problem. How: depending on your mmr, you are gaining and loosing a different amount of pips.

So e.g. even after reaching a certain division, if you try to dump your mmr into the ground, you will first have to improve your mmr, you be able to advance any further.
E.g. after dumping your mmr into the ground, you will only gain 1 pips per win, but you will loose 5 pips per win until your mmr is back at the level where it should be for the division.

But IF this League system is “perfect” (it will have flaws, we all know that) high MMR players will be on Legendary Divisions, where the high skilled players are and it is the Division where players will be rewarded the most.

One of my suggestions is to tie matchamking with both MMR and League, so the good players in each League can “stop” less skilled players from progressing if they are not worthy (saying it roughly).

So I think that if Leagues are good, high MMR guys will be rewarded accordingly. Also, queue times for high MMR players is just a given. Don’t expect having a high MMR and get 2 minutes queues. This happens in Gw2, LoL, DotA2, any game, really (queue times getting up to more than an hour).

infantrydiv.1620:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

for example,
in blue team, we have,
john,
mary,
jane,
sue,
jess,
versus

in red team, we have
joe,
maria,
jenny,
susan,
jessica,

8 out of 10 grills? wat

Just female characters.

OP’s argument is based on a fallacy.

Higher leagues take away pips for losing. You only have incentive to tank MMR at lower leagues which don’t have pip loss. In order to continue to progress, you need to continue to perform. In order to jump leagues, you need to perform much better.

Let’s say you tanked your rating in the low leagues. Once you start winning again, it will be disproportionate to what your rating predicts and your rating goes up. By the time you reach the higher leagues, your rating has increased to its proper value again.

If implemented correctly leagues will essentially be division based on rating.

Exedore.6320:

OP’s argument is based on a fallacy.

Higher leagues take away pips for losing. You only have incentive to tank MMR at lower leagues which don’t have pip loss. In order to continue to progress, you need to continue to perform. In order to jump leagues, you need to perform much better.

Let’s say you tanked your rating in the low leagues. Once you start winning again, it will be disproportionate to what your rating predicts and your rating goes up. By the time you reach the higher leagues, your rating has increased to its proper value again.

If implemented correctly leagues will essentially be division based on rating.

At the start of a new division, you don’t have anything to lose.

You only lose pips or tier, but you can’t lose a division. So this is what people will do

1. play normally to get to a new division
2. as soon as you get into a new division, keep throwing matches to have an artificial low MMR, you don’t have anything to lose. No pips, no tier, and can’t lose a division.
3. when you’re comfortable, queue with a premade and enjoy your low MMR queue. You can have a winning streak that can carry you to the next division.
4. repeat step #2

If there is no benefit of having a higher MMR, people will purposely tank it. We need to have higher rewards for higher MMR.

Why not just replace MMR with divisions? People are matched based on their divisions, which will make it harder for less skilled players to reach the top division since they’d be matched against progressively tougher players.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Why not just replace MMR with divisions? People are matched based on their divisions, which will make it harder for less skilled players to reach the top division since they’d be matched against progressively tougher players.

As I said above, without MMR, players will have pretty miserable match making. Remember all the posts about bad match making when they reset the MMR? Everyone is going to start at division One. It’s gonna take a long while and luck for the division to stabilize.

Respectful honest players fighting untill the last moment even tho the outcome is already decided, the minority who would abuse the system for higher leagues is the ones who can’t even stand a statistics change and rather leave the match as a coward even tho the reailty isn’t like “Oh, if I am not there at when the score reaching 500 it’s like I didn’t lost at all.”

I am not worried for this, I know I will still enjoy PvP even if my team losing.

“You win some, you lose some.”

Sunshine.5014:

At the start of a new division, you don’t have anything to lose.

You only lose pips or tier, but you can’t lose a division. So this is what people will do

1. play normally to get to a new division
2. as soon as you get into a new division, keep throwing matches to have an artificial low MMR, you don’t have anything to lose. No pips, no tier, and can’t lose a division.
3. when you’re comfortable, queue with a premade and enjoy your low MMR queue. You can have a winning streak that can carry you to the next division.
4. repeat step #2

If there is no benefit of having a higher MMR, people will purposely tank it. We need to have higher rewards for higher MMR.

You do realize ANet can easily stop this. It depends if add division as a high weight to match-making.

If match-making is heavily or fully restricted to division:
First, your rating will normalize quickly once you resume winning. Assume that the distribution of player rating in any division is Gaussian (most fall between two rating values). No matter how far you’ve tanked your rating, you’ll almost always be matched with players of appropriate rating for that division. Beating them will very quickly bring your rating into alignment, especially with Glicko2.

Second, ANet probably has a cap to how many pips you can gain for a single win. After a few games, your rating will return to where it should be. Higher divisions have multiple tiers, and each tier has 5 pips. Your rating will have returned to normal well before you can break out of the tier.

If match-making is still based mostly on rating:
If you tank, you’ll be matched with people below your division. ANet can base pip gain on how close your rating is compared to the rating range of your division. Since you tanked, your pip gain is extremely slow until your rating recovers.

Alternatively, ANet can just have hidden negative pips in higher division. If you tank, you go into negative pips, which you need to earn back before you start progressing in the visible pips.

I warned about this problem 4 months ago. ANet didn’t listen.

Now, can we have reward scales with MMR so we have some incentive for people to not tank their MMR?

Sunshine.5014:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Why not just replace MMR with divisions? People are matched based on their divisions, which will make it harder for less skilled players to reach the top division since they’d be matched against progressively tougher players.

As I said above, without MMR, players will have pretty miserable match making. Remember all the posts about bad match making when they reset the MMR? Everyone is going to start at division One. It’s gonna take a long while and luck for the division to stabilize.

before there was nothing to replace MMR when it was reset, however what we have now is MMR & Divisions competing against one and other, one requires you to go on winning streaks to advance, and the other consistently fights to keep you at a 50% win rate.

removing the current MMR system and replacing it with a system for ranked based upon divisions would be a vast improvement to the league system and would actually allow top players to advance to the legendary tier a lot faster, leaving better matches for everyone once everything settles down. (and it would settle down a lot faster this way too)

zxstanyxz.8769:

Sunshine.5014:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Why not just replace MMR with divisions? People are matched based on their divisions, which will make it harder for less skilled players to reach the top division since they’d be matched against progressively tougher players.

As I said above, without MMR, players will have pretty miserable match making. Remember all the posts about bad match making when they reset the MMR? Everyone is going to start at division One. It’s gonna take a long while and luck for the division to stabilize.

before there was nothing to replace MMR when it was reset, however what we have now is MMR & Divisions competing against one and other, one requires you to go on winning streaks to advance, and the other consistently fights to keep you at a 50% win rate.

removing the current MMR system and replacing it with a system for ranked based upon divisions would be a vast improvement to the league system and would actually allow top players to advance to the legendary tier a lot faster, leaving better matches for everyone once everything settles down. (and it would settle down a lot faster this way too)

The thing is, that means every time the League resets, we will have a few days of top tier teams playing together with the rest of the people, soloq
http://imgur.com/36T89D5

No they will need to farm at least 15 other teams to advance a league. Without MMR, those lower teams has no chance to even have fun.

League needs 2 things:

• Higher rewards for higher MMR player. For example, extra points for the reward track equal to (your_MMR – 1000). Scale the money reward with MMR.
• Win streak. Just copy Hearth Stone to be honest. Make team like The Abjured go up the league a lot faster since they have a perfect win streak.

In any case, resetting the MMR + scale rewards can be a short term solution, but removing MMR is absolutely not a solution. It only causes more complaints on the forums.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Why not just replace MMR with divisions? People are matched based on their divisions

Bet you there isn’t enough of a PvP playerbase for the higher divisions to get matches within any reasonable timeframe.

Sunshine.5014:

zxstanyxz.8769:

Sunshine.5014:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Why not just replace MMR with divisions? People are matched based on their divisions, which will make it harder for less skilled players to reach the top division since they’d be matched against progressively tougher players.

As I said above, without MMR, players will have pretty miserable match making. Remember all the posts about bad match making when they reset the MMR? Everyone is going to start at division One. It’s gonna take a long while and luck for the division to stabilize.

before there was nothing to replace MMR when it was reset, however what we have now is MMR & Divisions competing against one and other, one requires you to go on winning streaks to advance, and the other consistently fights to keep you at a 50% win rate.

removing the current MMR system and replacing it with a system for ranked based upon divisions would be a vast improvement to the league system and would actually allow top players to advance to the legendary tier a lot faster, leaving better matches for everyone once everything settles down. (and it would settle down a lot faster this way too)

The thing is, that means every time the League resets, we will have a few days of top tier teams playing together with the rest of the people, soloq
http://imgur.com/36T89D5

No they will need to farm at least 15 other teams to advance a league. Without MMR, those lower teams has no chance to even have fun.

League needs 2 things:

• Higher rewards for higher MMR player. For example, extra points for the reward track equal to (your_MMR – 1000). Scale the money reward with MMR.
• Win streak. Just copy Hearth Stone to be honest. Make team like The Abjured go up the league a lot faster since they have a perfect win streak.

In any case, resetting the MMR + scale rewards can be a short term solution, but removing MMR is absolutely not a solution. It only causes more complaints on the forums.

and if they lock us out of ranked between seasons again you;ll have the same issue, the only difference is it takes a lot longer for the higher teams to get out of the low divisions as it stands now.

hell one of my guildies in his first ranked match of the season queued up solo and faced Abjured… so it already happens now.

and i wasn’t saying remove MMR, i was saying replace it with a different match making rank based upon divisions, which would stop people from being able to influence their progression by tanking their mmr as people are having to do now, how is that fun for anyone involved?

zxstanyxz.8769:

Sunshine.5014:

zxstanyxz.8769:

Sunshine.5014:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Why not just replace MMR with divisions? People are matched based on their divisions, which will make it harder for less skilled players to reach the top division since they’d be matched against progressively tougher players.

As I said above, without MMR, players will have pretty miserable match making. Remember all the posts about bad match making when they reset the MMR? Everyone is going to start at division One. It’s gonna take a long while and luck for the division to stabilize.

before there was nothing to replace MMR when it was reset, however what we have now is MMR & Divisions competing against one and other, one requires you to go on winning streaks to advance, and the other consistently fights to keep you at a 50% win rate.

removing the current MMR system and replacing it with a system for ranked based upon divisions would be a vast improvement to the league system and would actually allow top players to advance to the legendary tier a lot faster, leaving better matches for everyone once everything settles down. (and it would settle down a lot faster this way too)

The thing is, that means every time the League resets, we will have a few days of top tier teams playing together with the rest of the people, soloq
http://imgur.com/36T89D5

No they will need to farm at least 15 other teams to advance a league. Without MMR, those lower teams has no chance to even have fun.

League needs 2 things:

• Higher rewards for higher MMR player. For example, extra points for the reward track equal to (your_MMR – 1000). Scale the money reward with MMR.
• Win streak. Just copy Hearth Stone to be honest. Make team like The Abjured go up the league a lot faster since they have a perfect win streak.

In any case, resetting the MMR + scale rewards can be a short term solution, but removing MMR is absolutely not a solution. It only causes more complaints on the forums.

…

and i wasn’t saying remove MMR, i was saying replace it with a different match making rank based upon divisions, which would stop people from being able to influence their progression by tanking their mmr as people are having to do now, how is that fun for anyone involved?

This whole thread was because I didn’t want people to tank their MMR. We’re in total agreement that it’s not fun for anyone.

So, do you disagree with my suggestions above (higher rewards, win streak)? If so, what’s your idea?

Characteristics of a good League:

1. Top players advance fast.
   This is crucial. For a League to work, there must be a pull for top players to move up fast. Mixing top players and normal players only cause frustration. One of the best way to do this is to implement Win Streak. Just copy HearthStone.
2. Better reward for top players (so they have incentive to be top players)
   This is another crucial piece. We need to encourage top players to stay top players. If there is no better reward, the system is open up for abuse. Fun is not a stable reward. Many top players may think farming noobs are more fun. We need real reward scaling with MMR.
3. Don’t throw together matches that are too skewed. If you have to do that, then don’t do it too often.
   One of the most frustrating things about PvP in the past. Learn from it and please don’t repeat it.
4. Encourage people to play regularly.
   Something like the WvW bonus chest system? One bonus chest per day that will be granted upon winning a Pip? The bonus chest stack for a week, so if people are busy during the weekdays, there is enough incentive to pull them back to play the game during weekends (omg I have 7 bonus chests, must clear them up before they are lost).

Sunshine.5014:

This whole thread was because I didn’t want people to tank their MMR. We’re in total agreement that it’s not fun for anyone.

So, do you disagree with my suggestions above (higher rewards, win streak)? If so, what’s your idea?

Characteristics of a good League:

1. Top players advance fast.
   This is crucial. For a League to work, there must be a pull for top players to move up fast. Mixing top players and normal players only cause frustration. One of the best way to do this is to implement Win Streak. Just copy HearthStone.
2. Better reward for top players (so they have incentive to be top players)
   This is another crucial piece. We need to encourage top players to stay top players. If there is no better reward, the system is open up for abuse. Fun is not a stable reward. Many top players may think farming noobs are more fun. We need real reward scaling with MMR.
3. Don’t throw together matches that are too skewed. If you have to do that, then don’t do it too often.
   One of the most frustrating things about PvP in the past. Learn from it and please don’t repeat it.
4. Encourage people to play regularly.
   Something like the WvW bonus chest system? One bonus chest per day that will be granted upon winning a Pip? The bonus chest stack for a week, so if people are busy during the weekdays, there is enough incentive to pull them back to play the game during weekends (omg I have 7 bonus chests, must clear them up before they are lost).

I agree with most/all of your suggestions, my only issue is that even with your suggestions the current MMR system will work against it all as it fights to keep you at a 50% win-loss ratio, meaning that having a high MMR means you can’t progress any faster due to being kept to a 50% win rate.

it also makes win streaks impossible without tanking your MMR first (whether intentionally or after having a bad day)

the better rewards for playing against better players in stead of tanking to play against worse players would be provided by the legendary division rewards, also if you could only play against your division (with a 1 division leeway either way for mixed grouping reasons) then it would be impossible for people to tank their rating to play against noobs, and would have 0 benefits to it at all.

zxstanyxz.8769:

I agree with most/all of your suggestions, my only issue is that even with your suggestions the current MMR system will work against it all as it fights to keep you at a 50% win-loss ratio, meaning that having a high MMR means you can’t progress any faster due to being kept to a 50% win rate.

it also makes win streaks impossible without tanking your MMR first (whether intentionally or after having a bad day)

the better rewards for playing against better players in stead of tanking to play against worse players would be provided by the legendary division rewards, also if you could only play against your division (with a 1 division leeway either way for mixed grouping reasons) then it would be impossible for people to tank their rating to play against noobs, and would have 0 benefits to it at all.

I agree with you that since MMR pulls you closer to 50% win rate, it can be a problem. However, it’s mostly a problem with higher Divisions. In lower divisions, win streak are still very much possible. The goal is to get top players out of the newbie divisions asap, so it serves the goal well.

Now, if we can also reset MMR at the start of the league, it will make the whole package better by allowing the top players to get Win Streak and get out of the newbie divisions even faster. When their MMR stabilizes in the Legendary division, it’s fine to have a 50% win rate.

Another good way to do reward:

• Reward gems for win based on personal MMR.
  gem_per_win = int((MMR – 1000) / 1000 * 3.5)

Example, most people MMR range between 1000-2300

• The Abjured, at 2300 MMR, gets 4 gem per win. It takes them 100 win to get 400 gems, which at the current market rate is about 40g. 100 win takes around 50 hours with queue time and 100% win rate. Realistically, it takes people a lot more for that.
• An average player gets 1-2 gems per win. Newbies get 0 gem per win. This encourage people to have higher MMR and play better!

We can tweak the constant to make it more rewarding, but currently the number is like this:
MMR | gems per win
2400 | 4
2200 | 4
2000 | 3
1800 | 2
1600 | 2
1400 | 1
1200 | 0
1000 | 0

Teutos.8620:

Have you guys every played one of the other title out there e.g. lol/dota/smite/sc2/hearthstone who are also using a league system?

Yes, the risk exists, that Anet will screw up the system, but I guess they will just copy the league-system of one of the more popular games, and they are solving the problem. How: depending on your mmr, you are gaining and loosing a different amount of pips.

So e.g. even after reaching a certain division, if you try to dump your mmr into the ground, you will first have to improve your mmr, you be able to advance any further.
E.g. after dumping your mmr into the ground, you will only gain 1 pips per win, but you will loose 5 pips per win until your mmr is back at the level where it should be for the division.

That is far from how it works. Try again.

WuGzaGenius.5684:

Teutos.8620:

Have you guys every played one of the other title out there e.g. lol/dota/smite/sc2/hearthstone who are also using a league system?

Yes, the risk exists, that Anet will screw up the system, but I guess they will just copy the league-system of one of the more popular games, and they are solving the problem. How: depending on your mmr, you are gaining and loosing a different amount of pips.

So e.g. even after reaching a certain division, if you try to dump your mmr into the ground, you will first have to improve your mmr, you be able to advance any further.
E.g. after dumping your mmr into the ground, you will only gain 1 pips per win, but you will loose 5 pips per win until your mmr is back at the level where it should be for the division.

That is far from how it works. Try again.

Agree. The thread is three month old and back then we already talked about how the league system SHOULD work.

Unfortunately ArenaNet decided they are a special snowflake who needs to reinvent the wheel. We all know how it ended. They failed miserably.

After 4 months, is it too late to talk about this now? Is there any constructive things that we can do right now to make PvP League less toxic?

The system could be a lot better if the MMR —> League relationship was reversed. See here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/PVP-UNPLAYABLE-teeming-with-EXPLOITERS/first#post5825005

Sunshine gets a +1 for calling this out 3mos ago.