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Posted by: Marduh.4603

Marduh.4603

Now the worst class balance from release. Direct damage in the first months immediately cut.
Holy trinity op condition|pet class ruin all pvp:
Necromancer
Engineer
Ranger

Condition bunkers have same dps as berserker GC. And godmod defence.

Necromancer
God mode Damage
1) Can impose almost every condition from 1200 distance. AOE. And if you take off your all Condition. You eat Epidemic.
2) Easy 8 sec+ fear chain to death.

God mode Defence
1) Perma weakness
2) Death Shroud
3) Plague

Engineer
God mode Damage
1) Perma burning – just 1 autoattack can eat 6k+ hp.
2) Hgh burning tick 800+
3) Perma poison
4) A lot of confusion
5) A lot of brainless aoe damage

God mode Defence
1) Perma protection.
2) Self resurrection.
3) Perma vigor.

Ranger
God mode Damage
1)pet – 600+ dps
2) 10 stack bleeding
2) perma poison
3) near perma burning
Around 2500+ dps – Often more than can make GC.
Oh and pet have direct damage
Pet hit light golem: 1-2k
Storm spirit hit light golem: 3-5k

God mode Defence:
1) Perma protection.
2) Self resurrection.
3) Perma dodge.
4) Pets take over a large part of damage.

Why AOE Damage bunkers often have more damage than one target direct damage?

Many watched NA / EU tournament. Almost all the teams consisted of a condition bunkers.
85% of the deaths were from the condition
10% of deaths from thieves
5% of the deaths from pets

A problem in 4 things.
1) Too huge damage from burning.
2) A lot of brainless AOE
3) Every single condition skills have too huge damage. For example 5 longbow warrior-10k + damage.
4)Too strong pets.

Time to NERF kitten condition aoe meta.

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Posted by: Who.4651

Who.4651

+1
15char………

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Posted by: Valneer.3854

Valneer.3854

Fighting full cond teams is by far the worst PvP experience I have ever had.

BG
“I’m here to bearbow and chew bubblegum..and I’m all out of bearbow.”

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Posted by: Zinwrath.2049

Zinwrath.2049

make everyone use celestial amulet.

solve half of your problems.

You can make yourself do plenty of damage, take plenty of hits, have plenty of crit. through Traits and even runes. Not sure why we need to push people into godmode bunkers or insta kill dps. Level out the playing field a little, i’m fine with people being tankier or higher in damage…but the ability to stack amulet stats ONTOP of runes/traits….is just breeding a boring meta.

Atleast cut the amulet stats in half across the board, that too would help.

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Posted by: Tracker.6483

Tracker.6483

Nobody should be able to apply perma-burn or perma-poison.

Small duration nerfs are needed for the classes that can.

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Posted by: SoLeciTO.3490

SoLeciTO.3490

+1 op

Iam really tired of people compaining about EVERYTHING about thief.

Warriors and thieves are the worst meta class now because they sucks in conditions.

Last night in a game a necro, an engi and a ele in the cap point killed us all 5 in less dan 8 seconds.

We dont even take half of their HP.

AOE damage + conditions in SPVP small areas cap points is the most stupid combination i have ever seen in a game.

The easiest mechanic (AOE conditions spam) to play is also the most rewarded.

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Posted by: Marduh.4603

Marduh.4603

Nobody should be able to apply perma-burn or perma-poison.

Small duration nerfs are needed for the classes that can.

Ranger:
sb-poison voley-permapoison
s/d-permapoison
torch+sunspirit-permaburn

Engineer:
p – poison dart volley-permapoison
Flamethrower+Incendiary Powder-permaburn

Necromancer:
scepter autoattack/plague – permapoison

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Posted by: Xsorus.2507

Xsorus.2507

The only way you can apply perma poison and burn is by having the person you’re applying it to not have any form of condition removal

I mean christ, you guys are crying about perma Poison, you realize that I can put 2mins of poison on your entire group as a Thief with a single Shortbow round….

However since most people aren’t tards completely, you’ll never realistically have 2 mins of poison.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos?view=0
Natures Ninja and Pain Inverter – Ranger PvP movies
http://www.twitch.tv/xsorovos

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Posted by: forrae.6708

forrae.6708

Warriors and thieves are the worst meta class now because they sucks in conditions.

ive seen longbow warriors wreck kittens with with their aoe burns. but they have to be pretty lucky/sneaky to be able to do that, and hope that their targets have no idea what theyre doing.

thugged out since cubscouts

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Posted by: SoLeciTO.3490

SoLeciTO.3490

I mean christ, you guys are crying about perma Poison, you realize that I can put 2mins of poison on your entire group as a Thief with a single Shortbow round….

LOL, we are not talking only about poison, actually is the less of our worries.

Bleed, Burn, Fear combination es the problem, meta classes right now spam a lot of them in a second with a lot of stacks.

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Posted by: Valneer.3854

Valneer.3854

The only way you can apply perma poison and burn is by having the person you’re applying it to not have any form of condition removal

I mean christ, you guys are crying about perma Poison, you realize that I can put 2mins of poison on your entire group as a Thief with a single Shortbow round….

However since most people aren’t tards completely, you’ll never realistically have 2 mins of poison.

Everyone ignore the perma condi loving ranger, nothing to see here.

BG
“I’m here to bearbow and chew bubblegum..and I’m all out of bearbow.”

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Posted by: Edo Tensei.8254

Edo Tensei.8254

the worst meta ever……this is a prove to me that arenanet devs have no clue about pvp.

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Posted by: The Boz.2038

The Boz.2038

Become meta-aware and adapt.

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Posted by: sid.9870

sid.9870

Err adapt? This means, bring spirit ranger and necromancer for mid fights so they can clean conditions from other spirit ranger and necromancer…

BORING AND MINDLESS

Hi Im Sid,
Absolute Nonsense [prrr]

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Posted by: The Boz.2038

The Boz.2038

…no, I don’t think attacking a condition necro with a condition build is gonna work…
A somewhat sturdier power build with some CC? Yeah, that’ll wreck him for sure.

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Posted by: xev.9476

xev.9476

Is this for real? There are several counters to those classes, to which engineers, necromancers, and rangers have all responded with lengthy QQ threads.

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Posted by: Volrath.1473

Volrath.1473

…no, I don’t think attacking a condition necro with a condition build is gonna work…
A somewhat sturdier power build with some CC? Yeah, that’ll wreck him for sure.

power builds are squishy and dye in 2 chain fears. You need a small group to take them down… If you watched the PAX you saw 4 ppl jumping necros from steath and the necros survive almost every time, 1 single person can’t take a necro down, unless he is afk off.

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Posted by: The Boz.2038

The Boz.2038

…you and I must not have been watching the same PAX.

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Posted by: TheMightyAltroll.3485

TheMightyAltroll.3485

…no, I don’t think attacking a condition necro with a condition build is gonna work…
A somewhat sturdier power build with some CC? Yeah, that’ll wreck him for sure.

power builds are squishy and dye in 2 chain fears. You need a small group to take them down… If you watched the PAX you saw 4 ppl jumping necros from steath and the necros survive almost every time, 1 single person can’t take a necro down, unless he is afk off.

That’s false, the current Necro meta builds are 30/30/10/0/0 and 30/20/0/0/20 Rabid Ammy. Both are HIGHLY glassy, and easily killed by conditions, or focus fire. Granted, I have some builds that are incredibly hard to kill, those aren’t the ones you are fighting/complaining about.

Contact me ingame for Necro, Ranger, Mesmer, and Thief advice.

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Posted by: Momekic.8603

Momekic.8603

+1 to OP

The new condition meta is the worst state that Guild Wars 2 pvp has been in. This is even worse than WoW balance.

- Right now Ranger, Engi and Necro have spec’s that are god mode.
- Warrior is just below them where they can have specs that are pretty powerful (minor tweaks and they would be balanced)
- The remaining classes – Guardian, Mesmer, Theif and Ele are all pretty much balanced.

Bring the 3 god mode classes into line. They should not have as much survivability as they do with being able to do as much damage as they do. It needs to balance out where you either have low damage and high survivability, or high damage and low survivability, not both.

And to those of you saying just cleanse the conditions…You can cleanse them, but they will be reapplied within 1-2 seconds after you cleanse. So, you blow whatever cleansing abilities you have, then you are pretty much a sitting duck.

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Posted by: The Boz.2038

The Boz.2038

- Right now Ranger, Engi and Necro have spec’s that are god mode.

So you claim that three classes have godmode builds… And all those builds run off the same thing – condition damage… And you somehow can’t figure out how to adapt to that?
Really?
Here’s a hint:
Necro – Burst, CC.
Engie – Condi, burst.
Ranger – CC, burst. Or, you know, KILL THE SPIRIT.

- Warrior is just below them where they can have specs that are pretty powerful (minor tweaks and they would be balanced)

Mbuahahahahaha! Warrior! Right! The guy has ONE build that is currently effective. ONE. AND that build counters TWO of the THREE builds you listed as OP. How does that logic work? “Oh, this is OP because it can’t be countered. That other thing is a counter to the first thing, but it is OP as well.”

- The remaining classes – Guardian, Mesmer, Theif and Ele are all pretty much balanced.

Yeah, except no. Guardian is still the most powerful class because it is literally the ONLY class that can make a viable team work. When’s the last time you saw a high-level team run without a bunker guardian?
I won’t even comment on the other two.

Bring the 3 god mode classes into line. They should not have as much survivability as they do with being able to do as much damage as they do. It needs to balance out where you either have low damage and high survivability, or high damage and low survivability, not both.

Condition damage is empowered by survivability. Deal with it.

And to those of you saying just cleanse the conditions…You can cleanse them, but they will be reapplied within 1-2 seconds after you cleanse. So, you blow whatever cleansing abilities you have, then you are pretty much a sitting duck.

You can’t just cleanse randomly, you need to save it for when it will really make a difference. I guarantee you that whatever gets reapplied in 2 seconds after a cleanse is negligible if you cleanse at the right moment, IE don’t cleanse the two stacks of bleeding and one stack of poison.
A PvP build is asking for trouble if it lacks a stunbreaker (hint: the OP ranger you listed lacks a stunbreaker), and you’d need coordination in order to survive without a condition removal method of some description.

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Posted by: Rerroll.9083

Rerroll.9083

the worst meta ever……this is a prove to me that arenanet devs have no clue about pvp.

+1 to OP

The new condition meta is the worst state that Guild Wars 2 pvp has been in. This is even worse than WoW balance.

Up Rerroll

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Posted by: sid.9870

sid.9870

When’s the last time you saw a high-level team run without a bunker guardian you say?
-DPS IRL (6/09/13) SOAC/TDTV Tournament, no guardian.

And yeah, this meta is bollocks. Worst meta I’ve played in, in Gw2 and really reminds me of what Anet did to dervishes in Gw1.

Hi Im Sid,
Absolute Nonsense [prrr]

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Posted by: Manijin.3428

Manijin.3428

Hi, I’m a warrior, and I regularly wreck characters that spec for condi-damage. Heck, I recently fought a necromancer and had my health INCREASE from 50% fighting a necro, and regularly match engineers in survivability, at least 1v1 or 1v2 (not in my favor). Ya know how I do it?

I bring a TON of condi removal. Seriously. Soldier Runes, Cleansing Ire, and Mending. I can cleanse 9 conditions in about 3 seconds, and continue at about 3-4 conditions every 4-5 seconds from there, with occasional additional burst cleansing.

If you’re having trouble with condi classes, stack condi-removal and solve your problems instead of QQ’ing about condi’s.

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Posted by: sid.9870

sid.9870

This is the problem… you cannot see further than the end of your nose.
You can’t bring nonsense warrior into a team comp, only because he can clean himself – theres 4 other people to deal with him, if necro isn’t suited for this task.

You can clean 9001 conditions? Great, I’d be the first one to send a power thief after you, and what you gonna do then? Even so, how exactly does your team benefit from your ability to 1v1 a necro in a 3v3/4v4 scenario?

Instead of telling people to stop QQing try comprehending the problem from tournament, not 1v1 pov.

Hi Im Sid,
Absolute Nonsense [prrr]

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Posted by: Valneer.3854

Valneer.3854

Hi, I’m a warrior, and I regularly wreck characters that spec for condi-damage. Heck, I recently fought a necromancer and had my health INCREASE from 50% fighting a necro, and regularly match engineers in survivability, at least 1v1 or 1v2 (not in my favor). Ya know how I do it?

I bring a TON of condi removal. Seriously. Soldier Runes, Cleansing Ire, and Mending. I can cleanse 9 conditions in about 3 seconds, and continue at about 3-4 conditions every 4-5 seconds from there, with occasional additional burst cleansing.

If you’re having trouble with condi classes, stack condi-removal and solve your problems instead of QQ’ing about condi’s.

Nothing I love more than when I start bursting a warrior with my SD rotation and they pop zerker stance.

BG
“I’m here to bearbow and chew bubblegum..and I’m all out of bearbow.”

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Posted by: Lopez.7369

Lopez.7369

I think people generally exaggerate how imbalanced the game is. Every class has a viable role except maybe mesmer, which is countered way too hard by sword/dagger thieves and conditions. Most of the time people are blaming the game when they should be blaming themselves.

If any tweaks need to be made, spirit rangers should be brought down — mostly because they’re really cheesy — and warriors, mesmers and elementalists need to be brought slightly up.

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Posted by: ronpierce.2760

ronpierce.2760

I think people generally exaggerate how imbalanced the game is. Every class has a viable role except maybe mesmer, which is countered way too hard by sword/dagger thieves and conditions. Most of the time people are blaming the game when they should be blaming themselves.

If any tweaks need to be made, spirit rangers should be brought down — mostly because they’re really cheesy — and warriors, mesmers and elementalists need to be brought slightly up.

Granted if the conditions meta dies down, Mesmers would still be in a prime place to be very OP again.

Shoot me for saying this, but the guy who said make everyone in tpvp use celestial amulet is basically right. The ONE thing WoW got better at (but then worse at in MoP) was made everyone less bursty so fights lasted a bit longer, but also, tone down the never-dying bunker builds (which would actually be less of an issue with no cleric/shaman ammy) People would be a little more self sustainable, fights wouldn’t be 2 shot and move on, bunkers would do a bit more damage and not last forever. It’d be great.

Then the real “game changer” stats would be your choice of runes/sigils, which still make up quite a bit of your stats.

High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)

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Posted by: sid.9870

sid.9870

If you want warriors, mesmers and most notably eles buffed, you sir, have no idea about neither balance nor state of forementioned classess whatsoever.

All 3 of them, would require slight toning down in a few skills/traits to be balanced, but they are sure close to perfection.

Problem is with the necro’s, thieves and rangers – these are insanely strong and imbalanced as kitten.
Whilist engi would need some small rework on couple things (perma vigor/swiftness, perma burning, no recharge on kits) to be ok.

Hi Im Sid,
Absolute Nonsense [prrr]

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Nearly everything the OP has said is wrong.

Necromancer
1) Necros can’t inflict torment or confusion at range. They have extremely limited access to burning, and Epidemic has an extremely delayed cast time, a shrinking window that scales inversely with effectiveness, and only works against bunches of players who all have their own individual cleanse.
2)Necros don’t have easy access to 8+ seconds of fear. In order to pull that off, a dedicated terror build needs to blow every fear cooldown consecutively, and if the opponent uses stability or a stun break at the right time their whole chain and their active defense melts.

1)Necros only have permanent weakness if you fight them at point blank range, and if they continually hit both the short range Weakening Shroud and the slow to cast enfeebling blood.
2)Death Shroud greatly limits the class.
3)Plague doesn’t do anything but squat on a point for 30 seconds. A plague necro kills no one.

Engineer
1)Perma burning can eat 6K HP… in 10 seconds. Then again, power classes can hit for that much in 1/4th of a second, so this is hardly overpowered.
2)Burning at high malice is only about as effective as 6 bleeds.
3)Engineers only have permanent poison if you camp inside of their tiny poison fields and take it up. It is extremely hard to apply permanent poison as an engineer.
4)Engineers don’t have a lot of confusion. They have a skill that applies 2 stacks, the bomb skill that requires melee range, has a long delay, and a short area that is completely useless without investing in stats, and the Prybar which is much better but alas is a melee weapon locked behind a utility kit that does crap for damage otherwise.
5)Grenades and bombs are the hardest to use AoEs in the game, with their slow flight, delayed activation, wide spread that loses damage quickly.

1)Engineers don’t have permanent protection. At all. They have RNG based shotty protection and proc based protection that barely handles their weaknesses.
2)Their self rez is incredibly slow, and they can be knocked out the rez bubble, and it is pretty easy to out DPS their heal if you aren’t a condition damage.
3)Nearly everyone has permanent vigor. The difference being that engineers require two or more traits to get it.

Rangers
1)Unless you sit like a lump, ranger pets will spend most of their time chasing you and doing very little.
2)Rangers can only inflict a lot of bleeding if they blow all of their cooldowns, or if you turn your back on them and they snip you over and over again.
2)Rangers only have permanent poison if you sit right in their face, and if they’re using very specific weapon skills.
3)Rangers also have restrained access to burning. Their spirits can be killed to prevent burning, you have to loiter in their traps to take burning damage, and torch 4 has a similar problem. The only skill they have that inflicts reliable burning is torch 5, which is less than 50% duration by default.

1)Rangers only have permanent protection if you don’t kill their stone spirit.
2)If you stop or stun their pet they lose their rez, and you can likely outdamage it anyway.
3)Their weapon skill dodges root them heavily, limiting mobility and the defensive value of their dodges.
4)Unless you sit like a lump, ranger pets will spend most of their time chasing you and doing very little.

A list of one sided complaints that doesn’t weigh the weaknesses of each of the classes.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: sid.9870

sid.9870

Oh god…

So you say… burning as an equivalent of 6 and a half bleed, on top of actual 6 bleeds, poison and power damage (around 2 bleeds) is fine, because melee class can score a hit for 6k? Apart from backstab and eviscerate there is none capable of doing it, not to mention they are highly conditional, require standing up close and can be blocked, blinded… and no, don’t give me this crap about conditions being removed, because Engi can apply them right after 10 sec, so he will quickly burn all your condition removals, in opposite to a single block, blind or even dodge being able to deal with eviscerate/backstab whilist person attacking is in vulnerable position to get damaged unlike engineer shooting from safe range.

Not many confusions? With bomb3/pistol3 you can get over 1k dmg per skill usage with the confusion applied – thats in the meantime when your burns/bleeds/poison is ticking. And judging by recharge of mentioned skills, this is more than most mesmers can apply.

Please… just please, stop embarassing yourself.

Hi Im Sid,
Absolute Nonsense [prrr]

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

I suppose if you read my post as a random amalgam of information in a manner other than how I wrote it and how that info pertains to other things I wrote, then yeah poison is alright because melee classes can hit for 6K, or whatever.

Anyway, to get back to the point: There is a very large difference between what a class can do, what they actually accomplish. The strengths that the OP listed, when not simply incorrect, are the kinds of things you can only pull off against noobs and the training golems. I main the engineer and necro myself, and I easily lose half of my fights because, contrary to popular belief, these classes aren’t some overpowered faceroll. Even when running condition builds, half of the opponents I end up battling have enough cleansing to wash away any damage I’d try to inflict. It is incredibly rare for me to pull off a full length fear chain (rare being I’ve only managed it once), I can’t maintain permanent poison against players because half the poison skills miss or can’t be fired off, burning takes forever to kill other players because it only stacks in duration. As a necro I get focus fired because there’s no way to defend myself. As an engineer I have to sacrifice quite a bit to accomplish a spotty vigor uptime, and half the time I just get controlled due to a lack of useful stun breakers.

On paper, an engineer/necro can do everything and anything at once while being impossible to beat. But that is only on paper. You build for everything with these classes, and you’ll end up accomplishing nothing. And BTW, mesmers have a whole lot more access to confusion than engineers do. This is especially true, since mesmers don’t have to sacrifice utilities to inflict confusion.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: Manijin.3428

Manijin.3428

This is the problem… you cannot see further than the end of your nose.
You can’t bring nonsense warrior into a team comp, only because he can clean himself – theres 4 other people to deal with him, if necro isn’t suited for this task.

You can clean 9001 conditions? Great, I’d be the first one to send a power thief after you, and what you gonna do then? Even so, how exactly does your team benefit from your ability to 1v1 a necro in a 3v3/4v4 scenario?

Instead of telling people to stop QQing try comprehending the problem from tournament, not 1v1 pov.

My point isn’t that I can do well in a 1v1 situation. My point is that if warrior, generally considered to be one of the weaker sPvP classes, can do something about conditions, then anyone else can. If you are having issues with conditions, especially with the current condition-heavy meta, then your build/approach needs to be changed. That’s really all there is to it.

The team benefits from my AoE fire field adding to burns and granting might/fire shield, my AoE condition cleansing for the group plus the heals, my AoE stuns, knockbacks and cripple, plus my Immob for focused bursting by the group. I can lock down the enemy team’s primary form of AoE damage pretty regularly, assuming I play well and don’t blow my cooldowns.

I’ve actually thought about this a fair bit, and I think it’s a bit presumptuous that I haven’t. I’m built fairly tanky, even against power builds, and provide decent group support as well. If the thief comes after me? Awesome. I’m on the necro while the thief tries to take me down, while the other members of my group are bursting down enemy players faster than the 2 on me can burst me down. Win/Win in my book.

Oh, and I don’t run berserker stance. If you’re going to use Soldier runes effectively, you need to slot 2 shouts (FGJ and Shake It Off), and as a warrior you need a source of stability (for me, Balanced Stance with vigor on stance trait for extra dodges). Combine that with the awesome Warbanner for Rez’s, and I’m feeling pretty good.

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Posted by: sid.9870

sid.9870

I see a solution for you – get kittening good.

If I can land all these things and I don’t play necro nor engi in competitive environment much, then theres something wrong with you.

About confusion, engineer has access to 5x 5s. +2x 3×. confusion every 15 sec (given they take recharge on bombs) and they are already specced for conditions so they benefit from this really well.
On contrary, only viable build in tournaments is shatter mesmer – which has up to 360 condi damage (compared to engineers ~1200) and applies up to 4x 3s confusion on full shatter. How exactly is that better?

And no, I didnt read your full post, because it was allround bullkitten and paragraphs about necro and engi were enough to proove that, now I read paragraph about ranger and I rest my case.

OP may be exaggerating but he spotted the problem really well, you on the other hand have no slightest clue about it.
And your argument about “on paper” can be thrown right back at you but here’s the thing… its much easier to press 3 skills on a ranger to get nearly permanent protection, burning and switfness, whilist damaging someone using 111111111 than to kill the spirits, interupt selfres, avoid poison, cleanse conditions already applied, avoid daze/stun, proceed to stunning, hit the stun through 3+ evades and dodges, start damaging, interupt healing skill and not die in the meantime. And all that done quick enough so the ranger doesnt get help from his teammates.

So please, do not speak of things you have no clue about.

Hi Im Sid,
Absolute Nonsense [prrr]

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Posted by: swiftpaw.6397

swiftpaw.6397

Nearly everything the OP has said is wrong.

Necromancer
1) Necros can’t inflict torment or confusion at range. They have extremely limited access to burning, and Epidemic has an extremely delayed cast time, a shrinking window that scales inversely with effectiveness, and only works against bunches of players who all have their own individual cleanse.
2)Necros don’t have easy access to 8+ seconds of fear. In order to pull that off, a dedicated terror build needs to blow every fear cooldown consecutively, and if the opponent uses stability or a stun break at the right time their whole chain and their active defense melts.

1)Necros only have permanent weakness if you fight them at point blank range, and if they continually hit both the short range Weakening Shroud and the slow to cast enfeebling blood.
2)Death Shroud greatly limits the class.
3)Plague doesn’t do anything but squat on a point for 30 seconds. A plague necro kills no one.

Engineer
1)Perma burning can eat 6K HP… in 10 seconds. Then again, power classes can hit for that much in 1/4th of a second, so this is hardly overpowered.
2)Burning at high malice is only about as effective as 6 bleeds.
3)Engineers only have permanent poison if you camp inside of their tiny poison fields and take it up. It is extremely hard to apply permanent poison as an engineer.
4)Engineers don’t have a lot of confusion. They have a skill that applies 2 stacks, the bomb skill that requires melee range, has a long delay, and a short area that is completely useless without investing in stats, and the Prybar which is much better but alas is a melee weapon locked behind a utility kit that does crap for damage otherwise.
5)Grenades and bombs are the hardest to use AoEs in the game, with their slow flight, delayed activation, wide spread that loses damage quickly.

1)Engineers don’t have permanent protection. At all. They have RNG based shotty protection and proc based protection that barely handles their weaknesses.
2)Their self rez is incredibly slow, and they can be knocked out the rez bubble, and it is pretty easy to out DPS their heal if you aren’t a condition damage.
3)Nearly everyone has permanent vigor. The difference being that engineers require two or more traits to get it.

Rangers
1)Unless you sit like a lump, ranger pets will spend most of their time chasing you and doing very little.
2)Rangers can only inflict a lot of bleeding if they blow all of their cooldowns, or if you turn your back on them and they snip you over and over again.
2)Rangers only have permanent poison if you sit right in their face, and if they’re using very specific weapon skills.
3)Rangers also have restrained access to burning. Their spirits can be killed to prevent burning, you have to loiter in their traps to take burning damage, and torch 4 has a similar problem. The only skill they have that inflicts reliable burning is torch 5, which is less than 50% duration by default.

1)Rangers only have permanent protection if you don’t kill their stone spirit.
2)If you stop or stun their pet they lose their rez, and you can likely outdamage it anyway.
3)Their weapon skill dodges root them heavily, limiting mobility and the defensive value of their dodges.
4)Unless you sit like a lump, ranger pets will spend most of their time chasing you and doing very little.

A list of one sided complaints that doesn’t weigh the weaknesses of each of the classes.

+1 Pretty much

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Posted by: prozon.3561

prozon.3561

Warrior is da new meta. Nn engi any more. You enemy run necro, just bring the war. The difference is you would also need a nec and ranger in your team:-D

Main problem of the ranger since half a year this class deals way too much dmg for his bunker abilities. And spirit ranger are so stupid easy to play…. but atm the warri brings huge cc support to take the enemys necro complete out of the game.


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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

And no, I didnt read your full post,

I stopped there. You are arguing with someone whom you are not paying attention to. Because of this, you yourself are a greater argument against yourself than anything I could ever say. You just lost without me having to lift a finger. Bravo!

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: Lighter.5631

Lighter.5631

Warrior is da new meta. Nn engi any more. You enemy run necro, just bring the war. The difference is you would also need a nec and ranger in your team:-D

Main problem of the ranger since half a year this class deals way too much dmg for his bunker abilities. And spirit ranger are so stupid easy to play…. but atm the warri brings huge cc support to take the enemys necro complete out of the game.

only if they dont target you while the enemy necro dont hide in the background and the necro dont know how to use F1

“i think it’s an underserved nerf. now we have to slot a stun breaker??”
“berserker stance clears all CC on you and you’re still immune to CC for 8 seconds”
-Excalibur.9748

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Posted by: Marduh.4603

Marduh.4603

Nearly everything the OP has said is wrong.

No. All I said is 100% true.

Necromancer:
1) – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tainted_Shackles600
- Epidemic cast time like staff skills – only 15 sec cd and very very op effect.
2) I use stun break and eat another fear(with near 1k dps). Active defense with 1k dps. Ok.

1) Necromancer come to the point. You have 10 + seconds of weakness. Almost always.
2) Now DS not defence ability. Necromancer use DS for burst. But DS is still counter all incoming burst.
3) Cast plague and defence point for 30 sec. – 30 point. Use plague 3 time in match – 90 point. The most useless skill.

Engineer
1) GC can hit 6k, but GC. Why condition bunkers have the same burst?
2) This does not change the fact that the burning very op condition.
3) Poison Dart Volley – perma poison
4) What? 7 Stack every 15 sec. 1k damage skill use.
5) Bomb hard to use? You have Parkinson’s disease?
Slow – cluster bomb. 1 Cluster flight time = Freeze grenade+Shrapnel+Barrage.

1) Every cc 3 sec protection 5 sec cd. Few have such a strong passive protection.
2) 20% sec Aoe selfrevive slow? 1/4 cast time 1200 range. In team fight Elixir R + Engineer = near instant revive.
3) No. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigor

Rangers
1) You just do not pay attention to how much strong pets.
2) Cooldown. Autoattack sb?
Poison – You’re probably used to playing faceroll profession with 1200 range. But every melee clakitten in 130 range and have not problem.
3) The April 2013 update increased the spirit’s health by 60%.. All power aoe was nerfed. Kill 3 light golem than kill ranger. Great solution.
Sun spririt very easy brainless access to burning

1)The April 2013 update increased the spirit’s health by 60%.
Dodge protection
2) Gw2 team fight. Not 1 vs 1.
3) What? Weapon dodge work in root.
4) Fear on stomp than self revive. It should be a few GC to kill one spirit ranger.

I suppose if you read my post as a random amalgam of information in a manner other than how I wrote it and how that info pertains to other things I wrote, then yeah poison is alright because melee classes can hit for 6K, or whatever.

Why AOE Damage bunkers often have more damage than one target direct damage?

Bunkers should not cause same damage, and often much more (since the AOE) as GC.

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Posted by: Elegant Avenger.8042

Elegant Avenger.8042

I think the root of this problem is how easy it is to apply conditions. Necros can literally aim their mouse on a point and press 1-2-3-4-5 and do a lot of AoE condition damage. (I’m not saying that this is the most effective way to do it. But it is kitten easy to play.)

It is WAY harder to apply constant physical damage. Burst teams have to coordinate so much to get the same results. They have to call targets, and wait for opportune moments to strike. On the other hand, a full condition team simply has to point and click all of their AoE conditions onto small fighting areas. And these condition classes build off of each other and stack in their effectiveness.

Physical damage is way easier to counter. Most of the damage from burst teams can simply be dodged or CC’d away. But conditions are easy to apply, and have really long durations.

If you get a ton of conditions on you, you HAVE to cleanse them or you’re dead, because they can heavily out dps physical damage in the long run. The ONLY way to counterplay long, passive condition damage is to cleanse them. Many classes either can’t afford to bring a lot of cleanse, or simply don’t have access to it. (See mesmers and thieves.)

Thats why this meta is so stupid. Whats the point of running highly coordinated builds that take a lot of skill to pull off when you can just sit there and press passive AoE damage to kill the other team.

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Posted by: Jesiah.2457

Jesiah.2457

Burning at high malice is only about as effective as 6 bleeds

Actually burning is equivalent to 12.42 stacks of bleeding. Making it an extremely easy application that does a lot of damage with nothing near the same effort required to get the damage out of bleeding.

One may argue that “Oh, bleeding can do more damage” yeah that’s true, but considering how much condi cleansing goes on and how some classes passively remove condis on top of their active removal, pushing beyond 12 stacks from a single source is quite a rarity, and thus makes burning insanely strong by comparison to bleeding just due to effort involved to get damage out of it.

If Thief had access to burning, I’d probably roll a condi build forever and ever. Burning IS that kitten strong.

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Posted by: prozon.3561

prozon.3561

Warrior is da new meta. Nn engi any more. You enemy run necro, just bring the war. The difference is you would also need a nec and ranger in your team:-D

Main problem of the ranger since half a year this class deals way too much dmg for his bunker abilities. And spirit ranger are so stupid easy to play…. but atm the warri brings huge cc support to take the enemys necro complete out of the game.

only if they dont target you while the enemy necro dont hide in the background and the necro dont know how to use F1

Doesnt matter, a warrior is able to stay alive since the last patch. The stances are a viable spec now, and once you’r on the necro it’s rly hard for him to get you off as quick as needed to prevent his death. I couldn’t believe it either but practise showed how it works. Thats the only positive aspect of the condi patch, war is not the worst class in the game anymore .


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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Guess we’ll start this again.

Necromancer
1)You stated necromancers can inflict every condition at 1200 range. You just proved they can’t. Epidemic also has a much longer cast time and aftercast than staff skills
2)I use stun break, then move out of position for spectral wall. Now the necro can’t chain fear anymore, and since every necro trying to chain fear is going to go for broke, you dodge and then their reaper’s mark or doom misses. This is both the defense I use against fear chains, as well as the tactic I see used against my own fear chains.

1)Unless they’re in your face, Enfeebling blood has an extremely delayed cast time, making it hard to hit without great prediction skills.
2)DS doesn’t counter burst, it absorbs burst. DS has a finite HP pool, which is quite easy to burst past. Hence, the reason why it is necromancers are focused down first in group combat.
3)Assuming some player doesn’t just neutralize the point, or disengage and go somewhere else while you are helpless to stop him, or just DPS right through plague form because even with that gigantic bag of HP a necro can sill be killed.

Engineer
1)A whole lot more than class cannon can hit for 6K. An extremely common practice in the game is to use Valkyrie Equipment, which gives enough power and crit damage to hit as hard as a GC. Then, players just use traits to build up precision and fury, so then they do a lot of damage while not being a glass cannon. True glass cannons, however, can hit for a whole lot more than 6K.
2)Burning being OP was never a fact in the first place. What is a fact is that it only stacks in duration, and the class who uses burning has the worst access to bleeds out of the popular condition classes. Every class in the game except necromancer and thief can have permanent burning on a target. Therefore, it isn’t OP.
3)Half of poison dart volley misses.
4)Again: engineers don’t get good access to confusion. The only reliable confusion is from static shot, since concussion bomb and pry bar miss too easily.
5)Yes, the bomb kit is hard to use. The reason being that opponents don’t have Parkinsons Disease, and they just get out of the way of bombs in the long delay before they fire off. To use the bomb kit well, you have to predict your opponents movements and force them into colliding with bombs, all the while not being trained down due to being in the fray. Ergo, bombs are a lot harder to use than, say, something like shatters or marks.

1)You don’t get protection if you don’t get stunned.
2)Considering that every other revive is instantaneous, yeah 20% is slow. It can be out DPSed, and knocked out of.
3)Guardian: Vigorous protection gives permanent Vigor by itself.
Mesmer: Critical Infusion gives permanent Vigor by itself.
Elementalist: Renewing Stamina gives permanent Vigor by itself.
Ranger: Primal Reflexes gives permanent Vigor by itself.
Warrior: gets 50% vigor from warhorn. Vigorous focus gets 8 seconds per every stance used.
Thief: Vigorous Recovery gives up to 50% vigor uptime by itself, and gives vigor right when you need it. Bountiful Theft does similar.

Like I said: nearly every class has permanent vigor. The thief and the warrior require more than just a single skill or trait, and the only class with no reliable access to vigor at all is the Necromancer.

Ranger
1) No, I just don’t sit still.
2)SB only inflicts bleeding while flanking. Otherwise, to get 10 stacks of bleeding, they have to use their weapon skills and utilities and pet skill all at once.
2)Please write more coherently. I don’t understand what you are trying to say here.
3)The HP update changes nothing. The ironic thing here is that everyone complains about AoEs and passive damage, then complains about a class with a bunch of summons that are weak to AoEs and passive damage.

1)The HP change means nothing, again. Dodge protection isn’t reliable protection, since they get only 1.25 seconds of protection after the end of the roll. That is not permanent protection, either.
2)Other players having the ability to rez other players changes nothing in class balance and is not overpowered.
3)You can weapon dodge in root, however the dodge itself is rooting. Because of this, rangers are one of the few classes I can reliably hit with the bomb kit easily.
4)Again, I have no idea what you are saying here.

The big problem is, these condition builds you are complaining about aren’t bunkers. They’re offensive condition builds. You can’t bunker with a terrormancer, or an HGH grenadier.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Burning at high malice is only about as effective as 6 bleeds

Actually burning is equivalent to 12.42 stacks of bleeding. Making it an extremely easy application that does a lot of damage with nothing near the same effort required to get the damage out of bleeding.

One may argue that “Oh, bleeding can do more damage” yeah that’s true, but considering how much condi cleansing goes on and how some classes passively remove condis on top of their active removal, pushing beyond 12 stacks from a single source is quite a rarity, and thus makes burning insanely strong by comparison to bleeding just due to effort involved to get damage out of it.

If Thief had access to burning, I’d probably roll a condi build forever and ever. Burning IS that kitten strong.

Burning damage = 328 + 0.25 Malice
Bleed damage = 42.5 + 0.05 Malice.

At 0 malice, burning = 328/42 = 7.8 stacks of bleeding
At 1312 malice, burning = 656/108 = 6.07 stacks of bleeding
At 1968 malice, burning = 820 /141 = 5.8 stacks of bleeding

Never, under any circumstances, is burning ever equivalent to 12.42 stacks of bleeding in damage.

EDIT: Might as well include this, too. A big caveat of using burning is that you still need a lot of malice to make it strong. Using burning with no condition damage at all is a mild nuisance to enemies.

It also is extremely easy to push past 6 bleeds. Heck, most classes get 4 or 5 in a single skill.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

(edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493)

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Posted by: Marduh.4603

Marduh.4603

Necromancer

1) Mainstream build can inflict 10 of 12 condition.
Epidemic 3/4-1 sec cast to reapply condition burst to a lot of targets. Totaly crap skill.
2) But they can dodge. What pathetic excuse. 8 sec cc with 8k damage from condition bunker.

1)Facepalm. It’s hard to hit aoe skill.
2)DS has a finite HP pool, which is quite easy to burst past.
http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2622702
3) bla bla bla. Pointless excuses.

Engineer
1) Valkyrie Equipment
And die from conditions for 6-7 seconds. What kind of garbage you write?
True glass cannons, however, can hit for a whole lot more than 6K.
No. Condition bunkers mitigate a lot of damage. But condition burst does same damage + aoe.
2) 700 – burning tick
14000 hp – thief
Burning damage 5% hp in sec. Just 1 condition. Not op. Are you kidding?
3)Half of poison dart volley misses.
So what? So do not permapoison. I’m tired of answering your crowing.
4) Engineer have best confusion access in the game. Another pointless bla bla bla.
5) Hard to use bomb. Seriously? You though believe what you write?

1) And what?
2) bla bla bla pointless garbage.
3)Guardian: Vigorous protection gives permanent Vigor by itself.
With soldier/cleric amulet. Ok.
So what’s the point? If others have similar trait then it stops being imbalanced defense mechanism. Condition deal damage while you dodge. Direct damage not.

Ranger
1) No, you just again justifies brainless mechanic.
2) And what? bla bla bla too hard to apply 10 stack?
For permapoison just need to attack in 130 range. For melee classes is not a problem. But faceroll ranger can not.
3) Spirit have hp near light golem. So advice like quickly kill the spirit of pointless.

1) bla bla bla 33% damage reduction totally useless.
2) A lot of classes have Selfres. Tell me another fairy tale.
3) And what? Another pointless bla bla bla
4) You die. Player try to stomp you. Pet cast Fear. Then Elite selfres.

2500+ armor or 22k+ hp not a bunker.
I think to write something else meaningless. You will always be one answer: they can dodge, they can use condition remove. This is not a constructive discussion.

GC – high risk / medium reward
Conditioon bunker – low risk / high reward
Guardian Bunker – low risk / low reward
You does not confuse such a relation.
Probably because you’re playing for the 2 professions of holy kitten trinity.

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Posted by: Poxxia.1547

Poxxia.1547

Guess we’ll start this again.
- Long explanation displaying BRA has infinite more patience than I do -

+1
PS: GC has a high risk? Uhm .. right. I wonder how that would be if AoE was toned down. As I recall thieves and mesmers used to have a pretty high reward for little to no risk, hence they where the only ones who could go GC in the first place.

And could we please have the language moderated … it is almost not worth reading. The ad hominem arguments are not the way to go.

(edited by Poxxia.1547)

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Posted by: sid.9870

sid.9870

BRA may have more patience than all of us, but sure as hell he doesn’t have a slightest clue about balance in game and behavior in battle.
Everything he says is just bollocks… but yeah, carry on.

Hi Im Sid,
Absolute Nonsense [prrr]

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Posted by: Poxxia.1547

Poxxia.1547

BRA may have more patience than all of us, but sure as hell he doesn’t have a slightest clue about balance in game and behavior in battle.
Everything he says is just bollocks… but yeah, carry on.

I think fire-dmg and some classes access to it has been named several times since the last patch. Engineers don’t strike me as a problem in that regard, I am however puzzled about spirits and dhuumfire. But that is a different story which other more capable players have been posting about for a while.
There is no need to be personal on the matter … really.
PS: How can you say “everything”, when you didn’t even read his post?

(edited by Poxxia.1547)

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Posted by: Poxxia.1547

Poxxia.1547

I think the root of this problem is how easy it is to apply conditions. Necros can literally aim their mouse on a point and press 1-2-3-4-5 and do a lot of AoE condition damage. (I’m not saying that this is the most effective way to do it. But it is kitten easy to play.)

It is WAY harder to apply constant physical damage. Burst teams have to coordinate so much to get the same results. They have to call targets, and wait for opportune moments to strike. On the other hand, a full condition team simply has to point and click all of their AoE conditions onto small fighting areas. And these condition classes build off of each other and stack in their effectiveness.

Physical damage is way easier to counter. Most of the damage from burst teams can simply be dodged or CC’d away. But conditions are easy to apply, and have really long durations.

If you get a ton of conditions on you, you HAVE to cleanse them or you’re dead, because they can heavily out dps physical damage in the long run. The ONLY way to counterplay long, passive condition damage is to cleanse them. Many classes either can’t afford to bring a lot of cleanse, or simply don’t have access to it. (See mesmers and thieves.)

Thats why this meta is so stupid. Whats the point of running highly coordinated builds that take a lot of skill to pull off when you can just sit there and press passive AoE damage to kill the other team.

I tend to agree with this.

But on the other hand … the way thieves and mesmers used to be was not a whole lot better. I doubt it took that much coordination (I remember some footages of burst-combos from both thieves and mesmers that were just silly). The infamous combo thieves could pull off didn’t take a lot of skill/coordination either; even I as a horrible thief could do that.
Not all classes/build could just keep stunbreaking and/or dodge, and since the cd on the bursts were a lot shorter than the stunbreaker-cd, imho it wasn’t as trivial as you make it sound
But hey .. I can be wrong, it was some time ago.

I do however agree with your view on conditions/AoE.

(edited by Poxxia.1547)

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Posted by: Copenhagen.7015

Copenhagen.7015

Good thing condi Warriors aren’t getting attention yet. Combustive Shot aoe fire field can do 8k damage and its aoe. How to kill a Warrior? Kite him. But kill yourself in the process when you’ve got torment constantly being reapplied. If it stacks up to 5 and you keep moving. It will do a cool 6k damage. Dont mind the quickest application of bleeds of any class either. That’s not a problem. I’ll kite him. Even though i’ll be immoblized in a fire field with bleeds and torment taking chunks of my health similar to how a burst class would take your health down. Borderline overpowerd Condi Warriors and the other classes take the limelight. Fine with me!