Guild Wars 2

reference to custom arena options
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Custom_Arena#Custom_Arena_options

introduce a new option, call it “Force Balance” or maybe some other better name if you have one.

this Force Balance is enabled by default for all custom arenas official hosted by anet.
with Force Balance enabled, the following will occur:
- in uneven games (2v1, 3v2, 4v3, 5v4) when the winning team has one more player than the losing team, and is leading by at least 20 points then the most experienced (checks total amount of games played) player on the winning team will be auto balanced (complete with auto balance participation rewards) to the losing team.

the current trend in hotjoin is that, players are unwilling to join the losing team to only be mercilessly stomped by the winning team.

perhaps this simple fix may help solve that.

yes? no? why?
discuss please.

no feedback?

well, i figured that if hotjoin players like to enter spectator mode and force auto balance so often, why not semi automate that process?

if the scores were like 500 vs 480 and most players on the losing team had auto balance extra rewards, i think they might not feel so bad, and may actually try their best to win it for their team?

Is a match legitimately close simply because the score is close or because there is an equal distribution of skill between both teams? Can a match even be considered “close” if players are constantly shuffled so that team affiliation no longer means much?

Is a 500 to 200 reward gap justified when things like team affiliation forcefully shift their meaning?

Why not just remove the incentives for stacking in the first place?
Reduce the disparity between losing and winning, to, say, 400 to 300. Currently anyone abusing stacking can just about guarantee themselves the 500 so it becomes competitive with Solo Queue considering the loss probability and queue times. This would push some of those farmers back to arenas. Additionally, at 500-200 you need about 3 minutes in the match on the winning team to get the 200 you would’ve got for losing. At 400-300 you would need 6 minutes on the winning side to get that 300. This would greatly reduce the benefit for waiting/stalling to try and stack one team.

Change the monthly achievements by either raising rank points to 15000, changing 20 wins to 20 matches played, or reduce wins to 10. 20 PvP wins is a huge bottleneck considering the other one is just 6000 rank points. Farming wins via stacking or spectate/autobalance helps to reduce that bottleneck quite a bit. 20-0 (20 win/0 loss) is 12000 rank points, 20-10 is 14000, and 20-20 is 16000. Meanwhile 10-5 is 6000 and 10-10 is 7000.

Reduce the risk for playing a close match or joining a losing team. Add a “comeback bonus” for reducing a big deficit (bonus reward if the lead is completely overcome). Alternatively, offer the losing team more points if they lose a close game. Often if I am autobalanced (I usually volunteer) I try to help my new team, but if it becomes uneven again I simply go look for 1v1s and stop trying to cap, as my win and reward have been guaranteed. Offer us something for successfully beating the odds, and that last slot in the 4v5 might fill up as well.

Offer a team with a significant deficit (or outmanned) buffs similar to ones on Temple. Example: Ferocity (15 points on kills and/or 0 points to other team for deaths) if undermanned, Stillness (double progression) if behind by 100 and Tranquility (neutralize or flip all enemy points) if Stillness not enough.

Hotjoin needs incentives. Challenge the stronger players to play on a weaker team and reward them when they succeed. I think it’s fine for a few friends to be on the same team and coordinating to be greater than the individual parts. What this game needs is an incentive to challenge other strong players to play against these friends, whether in the form of handicaps, bonuses, and reduced risk.

Maybe the first step of all is to restrict people from changing team too easily.

Nah better punish those filthy sideswitchers. No win rewards, max half of reward points and no count to daily/monthly progress.

Personally I think autobalancing should be reduced to an absolute minimum. It just disrupts the flow of the game if you are constantly getting ported back to spawn. But I do agree that unbalanced games are a problem in hotjoin. Just forcing players into the team with fewer people or into the loosing team if they are equal instead of allowing them to choose a team would be a good start.

Rozbuska.5263:

Nah better punish those filthy sideswitchers. No win rewards, max half of reward points and no count to daily/monthly progress.

So people just wait and stack to a team then? Sideswitching is done to counter a bigger cancer to the game (stacking).

Your kneejerk bandaid would just make stacking worse and even more permanent.

Ignavia.7420:

Just forcing players into the team with fewer people or into the loosing team if they are equal instead of allowing them to choose a team would be a good start.

What will prevent them from joining a different game instead? Or stay in the game if they do get put on the losing side? Most hotjoins are decided at 0-0 during team formation, so anything that adjusts for winning/losing team will not hit the root of the issue.

DaveGan.8065:

Rozbuska.5263:

Nah better punish those filthy sideswitchers. No win rewards, max half of reward points and no count to daily/monthly progress.

So people just wait and stack to a team then? Sideswitching is done to counter a bigger cancer to the game (stacking).

Your kneejerk bandaid would just make stacking worse and even more permanent.

No it just unlearn bad switching habits and learn them to lose battle sometime. But sideswitchers can be eliminate much easier simply don allow them to chose side few sec longer than autobalance ends so they cant spam join wining team right after.

Also ist hot join. Personaly I going there because I want kill ppl I dont care about points (and dont need care about ruining someone elses ladders or so) and nothing makes me angry more than I got autobalanced to other side in the middle of fight especialy when I am just about finishing someone.

Rozbuska.5263:

DaveGan.8065:

Rozbuska.5263:

Nah better punish those filthy sideswitchers. No win rewards, max half of reward points and no count to daily/monthly progress.

So people just wait and stack to a team then? Sideswitching is done to counter a bigger cancer to the game (stacking).

Your kneejerk bandaid would just make stacking worse and even more permanent.

No it just unlearn bad switching habits and learn them to lose battle sometime. But sideswitchers can be eliminate much easier simply don allow them to chose side few sec longer than autobalance ends so they cant spam join wining team right after.

How will you do that (end the “bad habits”)? Win = (250% more) rank points = rank up and track rewards.

Here is the issue:

1. Rank 50 player joins red
2. Rank 35 player joins blue
3. Rank 70 player joins red because 50 > 35
4. Blue is now taboo because everyone who is watching wants to join red
5. Blue gets a few 20, 25, and 15 players that don’t know better. Meanwhile red gets 15, 40, and 60 players that are watching.
6. Server is now 4v5 with red up 150-50.
7. The original rank 35 player [/b]rightfully deems the match illegitimate[/b] and decides if people are going to farm, he will too. He goes to spectate to force autobalance.

See the problem? It started from (3) to (5) when score doesn’t indicate a winning/losing team. You’re suggesting we fix the problem at (7).

Also ist hot join. Personaly I going there because I want kill ppl I dont care about points

All the more reason why you get rid of reasons to stack in the first place. Starting with the ridiculous (for hotjoin) 500-200 reward gap.

DaveGan.8065:

Rozbuska.5263:

DaveGan.8065:

Rozbuska.5263:

Nah better punish those filthy sideswitchers. No win rewards, max half of reward points and no count to daily/monthly progress.

So people just wait and stack to a team then? Sideswitching is done to counter a bigger cancer to the game (stacking).

Your kneejerk bandaid would just make stacking worse and even more permanent.

No it just unlearn bad switching habits and learn them to lose battle sometime. But sideswitchers can be eliminate much easier simply don allow them to chose side few sec longer than autobalance ends so they cant spam join wining team right after.

How will you do that (end the “bad habits”)? Win = (250% more) rank points = rank up and track rewards.

Here is the issue:

1. Rank 50 player joins red
2. Rank 35 player joins blue
3. Rank 70 player joins red because 50 > 35
4. Blue is now taboo because everyone who is watching wants to join red
5. Blue gets a few 20, 25, and 15 players that don’t know better. Meanwhile red gets 15, 40, and 60 players that are watching.
6. Server is now 4v5 with red up 150-50.
7. The original rank 35 player [/b]rightfully deems the match illegitimate[/b] and decides if people are going to farm, he will too. He goes to spectate to force autobalance.

See the problem? It started from (3) to (5) when score doesn’t indicate a winning/losing team. You’re suggesting we fix the problem at (7).

So if people could no longer see other players’ ranks when spectating, would this fix this problem?

Ignavia.7420:

So if people could no longer see other players’ ranks when spectating, would this fix this problem?

I don’t think so. Simply replace [some higher ranked player in example earlier] with [player who did well in last match] (EDIT: or any player with a tiger finisher or better from last match).

There is a bit of value in the slight loss of information, but I don’t think it would be nearly enough. The better thing is to make wins not so valuable and give good players a reason to play against (instead of with) each other.

Its hot join its not competetive lets reward ppl for they actual successes.
- remove points entirely just keep 15 minutes/match
- keep teams but let game autobalance without manual switchning
- only one score on the end for all players together. Rewards will still depends on same rules like before like capturing points but rewarded will be actual players not teams.
- smaller scale format will also be great like 3v3.

Rozbuska.5263:

Its hot join its not competetive lets reward ppl for they actual successes.
- remove points entirely just keep 15 minutes/match
- keep teams but let game autobalance without manual switchning
- only one score on the end for all players together. Rewards will still depends on same rules like before like capturing points but rewarded will be actual players not teams.
- smaller scale format will also be great like 3v3.

I’m reading this as rewarding players based on individual score. Please tell me this is not the case. We don’t need to have 5 people capping home/killing NPC, and the death of defender/bunker classes (this is how hotjoin used to be).

On a side note, I have no issue introducing a 2v2/3v3 deathmatch map, but I think that might be a separate issue altogether.

There is no way how to split zergers if they dont want to. Its in human nature move in crowd if you are weak alone. For that you will need some crazy complicated system what will somehow dynamicly affect players if they fight 1vX.

Rozbuska.5263:

There is no way how to split zergers if they dont want to. Its in human nature move in crowd if you are weak alone. For that you will need some crazy complicated system what will somehow dynamicly affect players if they fight 1vX.

It’s already been done, and done quite well. Removing individual score from mattering did plenty to split the zerg. As the focus went to winning the match people no longer double-/triplecapped the same point. They knew to go to the teamfight at middle or keep far contested.

Hotjoin will lose all its legitimacy (not that it has much left) if it goes back to that. Back then it was just two zergs tagging and farming stragglers while the newcomers wondered why their rank was going up so slowly.

DaveGan,
we’re talking about hotjoin here. so,
yes, if the end match scores are close, then the match is close.
yes, if both team have similar amount of skilled players, yes the match ought to be close.
yes, if the shuffled players try their best to help the losing team, the match ought to be close.

shuffled players gain full win rewards due to auto-balance bonus anyway.
what are you talking about?

end match rank points rewards of 500 win, 200 lose is not justifed when the “winning” team won by stacking and having one more player on their team.

because removing incentives is bad, it is better to give give them the incentives for stacking.

well, reducing the difference between losing and winning in hotjoin (custom arena) would not hurt either. i will start a new topic regarding this issue. thanks for the feedback!

actually, i find that the current monthly rank points of 6,000 is just about right. it is not much of a grind if done in hotjoin, and 4 wins in team arena will settle it. lets leave it at that shall we? on the other hand, 20 wins does seems a bit grindy, and should be changed to 20 matches played instead. i will start a new topic regarding that request as well. thanks again for the feedback!

hmmm a “comeback bonus” sounds like a good idea, i will start a new topic to discuss that! thanks! well, i did suggested something similar before, your “offer losing team more points if they lose a close game” but it did not seem to get much attention. perhaps i worded it wrongly and did not sit well with the majority. i should start a new topic regarding that again. thanks! and yes, i definitely agree that, those who are auto balanced to the losing team who helped the losing team to come back, get an enourmous bonus. something to motivate them.

i see. some hotjoin only outmanned, outpoints buffs to help the losing team make a come back, good points. a separate topic to discuss them is required. i shall make the topic! thanks again!

aye, you have brought up some very good and important points. thanks again for your comprehensive feedback! now i need to reply the others in the topic, and then start a new new topics based on your feedback.

thanks again DaveGan!

Siva Mira,
it is hotjoin, the most casual form of sPvP in guild wars 2.
instead of restricting people, maybe we should encourage them to help the losing team.

Rozbuska,
that sounds a bit harsh.
sometimes people switch in order to help out the losing team.

Ignavia,
well, in hotjoin, people come and go, so auto balance is very much required.
also, auto balance cease to function when one team has scored 400 points or higher.

DaveGan,
aye, i admit having switched rooms myself if i do not like the players in the current room.

Rozbuska,
lose battle is fine, but losing battle due to 4 vs 5 is not fine at all.
in the old 8 vs 8 hotjoin, it is not much of a problem even if the matches are 7v8 or 7v6 because it is not much difference but in a 5 vs 5 hotjoin, a 4v5 situation is very disadvantage for the team with one player short. there are lots of spectators, but they do not wish to join the losing team.

this force balance will move a player from the winning team into the losing team, so that the spectators can join the winning team, the game will be 5 vs 5 by then, and balanced.

if you look at it from another perspective, you might have a harder time killing people if your team has one less player than the other team.

and if you are being auto balanced to the other team, it usually means your team is too good at killing the other poor team. since hotjoin is not balanced in terms of player experience and skills, it is only fair for the system to help shuffle the teams to balance up the teams a bit.

DaveGan,
yes, as you explained earlier, remove the 500-200 win-lose reward gap.
i will get on with the new topic very soon!
also, good example, thanks for sharing that!

Ignavia,
it might, but as DaveGan mentioned, players who stay in the room will remember the names of those at the top of the score board. and animal finishers also gives away their rank.

DaveGan,
ya, even if we hide the rank, remove the scoreboard, the animal finishers still show off the rank.
but what if even the names are hidden as well?

Rozbuska,
i think that can’t do, since the developers want the current 5 vs 5 hotjoin to be a dynamic tutorial for solo arena / team arena 5 vs 5 conquest mode.

DaveGan,
yeah, somehow, after removal of 8 vs 8 servers and removal of personal score as rewards in hotjoin, players actually started playing to win for their team.

Rozbuska,
players will always want to zerg, because they find strength in numbers.
however, if they do that, they may find their owned capture points being de capped quickly.

DaveGan,
yeah those problems are gone, but now new problems came (experienced players stacking against lesser experienced) so now we need to find a way to fix that as well so hotjoin might be more fun again.

thanks again everyone for providing feedback!