Guild Wars 2

anyone know exactly what they have in mind to nerf these power houses of dps, 50% reduction in damage maybe? would be a small step in the right direction i think.

I think if you leave thief dps alone and just remove stealth, so we can see them coming that would be enough to balance them.

It is funny when people complain about thief burst dmg while doing nothing to prevent it If they nerf the bs dmg, then all truly powerful builds will become more common (like bleeders or dazers) – that will become a scary day for those that are still having problems with backstabs.

Ah… they are fixing the culling error. I dont think anything else has been announced.

If i were to nominate a change i would suggest none. Maybe change cloak and dagger so you cant steal after cast animation. Maybe move mug up a tier?

I think thief has lethality, utility, and mobility… i think if he other two factors werent so big then the lethality would be less of an issue

WIZBASKY.6894:

anyone know exactly what they have in mind to nerf these power houses of dps, 50% reduction in damage maybe? would be a small step in the right direction i think.

I think if you leave thief dps alone and just remove stealth, so we can see them coming that would be enough to balance them.

DPS is a short hand form of Damage Per Second and thieves aren’t a DPS powerhouse, they are a spike damage powerhouse… big difference.

Don’t forget that they are increasing our sustained damage when they blunt our spike damage, so if they nerfed BS by 50% damage, that damage would be added in some other form to our sustained abilities (most likely auto-attack damage) or some form of debuff to opponent.

The end result is that over a 5 second period we will still produce the same amount of damage but our damage will be spread over 5 seconds rather than front loaded into the first second and then having us do nothing for the next 4 seconds.

Coffeebot.3921:

WIZBASKY.6894:

anyone know exactly what they have in mind to nerf these power houses of dps, 50% reduction in damage maybe? would be a small step in the right direction i think.

I think if you leave thief dps alone and just remove stealth, so we can see them coming that would be enough to balance them.

DPS is a short hand form of Damage Per Second and thieves aren’t a DPS powerhouse, they are a spike damage powerhouse… big difference.

Don’t forget that they are increasing our sustained damage when they blunt our spike damage, so if they nerfed BS by 50% damage, that damage would be added in some other form to our sustained abilities (most likely auto-attack damage) or some form of debuff to opponent.

The end result is that over a 5 second period we will still produce the same amount of damage but our damage will be spread over 5 seconds rather than front loaded into the first second and then having us do nothing for the next 4 seconds.

That sounds a lot more reasonable since you can’t get killed within one basilisk stun.

Lukin.4061:

It is funny when people complain about thief burst dmg while doing nothing to prevent it If they nerf the bs dmg, then all truly powerful builds will become more common (like bleeders or dazers) – that will become a scary day for those that are still having problems with backstabs.

I’m testing my own condition build just for it…just for make noobs cry even louder on forums, louder than never before

yeah its funny because backstab isent even the most op thief build. those guys give up everything for damage.

the future will hold thiefs that are comparable in toughness and vitality to guardians, rival necro’s in terms of condition damage, pretty much cover half the map with caltrops whenever they dodge roll, keeping everyone on your team crippled 24/7 and they most likely will gain a swiftness on dodgeroll, so they will still be uncatchable. daggerstorm will make its return into pvp and thiefs will run multiple stunbreakers.

and that just the most “fair” build for your oponents, cant wait till the dazelock QQ begins ‘OMG Theif killed me i could do nothing back pls fix anet’ =(

the class mechanics lend themselves to being “overpowered.” being able to use abilities continuously without cds would make just about any class ‘op’. gl to Anet on trying to fix something fundamentally broken in the first place.

Kousetsu.1627:

yeah its funny because backstab isent even the most op thief build. those guys give up everything for damage.

the future will hold thiefs that are comparable in toughness and vitality to guardians, rival necro’s in terms of condition damage, pretty much cover half the map with caltrops whenever they dodge roll, keeping everyone on your team crippled 24/7 and they most likely will gain a swiftness on dodgeroll, so they will still be uncatchable. daggerstorm will make its return into pvp and thiefs will run multiple stunbreakers.

and that just the most “fair” build for your oponents, cant wait till the dazelock QQ begins ‘OMG Theif killed me i could do nothing back pls fix anet’ =(

brace yourself… kittens rage bout thieves on the 16th is coming mate

WIZBASKY.6894:

anyone know exactly what they have in mind to nerf these power houses of dps, 50% reduction in damage maybe? would be a small step in the right direction i think.

I think if you leave thief dps alone and just remove stealth, so we can see them coming that would be enough to balance them.

1.) Aftercast on the all Shadow Step and “leap” style moves.
2.) Culling on stealth and, possibly, break on damage.
3.) Inability to stall cap by being in or just out of stealth.
4.) Spike drop across the board, initiative cost increase on skills but increase in damage.
5.) Condition damage and mobility drop.

And if all else fails,
1b.) Deleting the class.

Does thief skills have any long cool downs on their skills like say every other class? How about mesmer? Cause these 2 class’ seem to have their skills up all the time while my other characters have this long timer for ALL SKILLS!

Thief is pretty mediocre in that area, most stuff is 30 to 60 sec. the elites are abit longer ofcourse, daggerstorm is 90 sec and thieves guild 180 if im not mistaking.

My Mesmer had decoy and blink on a really short cd, around 30 seconds. my feed back is 45ish or so. depending on what map i play i switch feedback out for nullfield (also around 45ish) and/or blink for portal (60 sec)

Backstab thieves ussually take two signets and two venoms for might stacking, allowing them to do their most lethal backstab every 45 seconds, then they have nothing left so abuse that.

Anet, what are you doing about it?

Lukin.4061:

It is funny when people complain about thief burst dmg while doing nothing to prevent it If they nerf the bs dmg, then all truly powerful builds will become more common (like bleeders or dazers) – that will become a scary day for those that are still having problems with backstabs.

so you always have full endurance and your defensive abilities are never on cooldown? you are beyond pro sir.

Spvp screenshot’s are not really a proper gauge imho, sure ive played 500+ hours by now, but ive seen all combinations. Team Mesmer, Team Guardian, Team Thief, Team Ele, Team Ranger. I was really dissapointed in Team Mesmer btw, here i thought i could relax one game and let them carry me but we got our kitten handed to us with 39 – 500 lol

Vena.8436:

WIZBASKY.6894:

anyone know exactly what they have in mind to nerf these power houses of dps, 50% reduction in damage maybe? would be a small step in the right direction i think.

I think if you leave thief dps alone and just remove stealth, so we can see them coming that would be enough to balance them.

1.) Aftercast on the all Shadow Step and “leap” style moves.
2.) Culling on stealth and, possibly, break on damage.
3.) Inability to stall cap by being in or just out of stealth.
4.) Spike drop across the board, initiative cost increase on skills but increase in damage.
5.) Condition damage and mobility drop.

And if all else fails,
1b.) Deleting the class.

A-kittening-men. It’s not the damage that concerns me too much, but every skill is a homing missle insta mobility flash stealth blind. Heartseeker should require line of sight and needs a cast time. I don’t think thieves need higher ini cost, but they don’t need two skills that stealth them and heal. That kittening den is the most ridiculous ability that should be a six.

its been like this for the past 3 hours. never less than 5-6 thieves in the game. there were 7 thieves on one team at one point. like.. really? hotjoin isn’t a tourny. its just a random fluctuating sample of the player base online and active at a given time. this is what people are playing. i chose this screen over the others because this is approximately standard (average). tons of thieves, guards, a mes, an ele and a necro all sprinkled in.

Galantis.3267:

Does thief skills have any long cool downs on their skills like say every other class? How about mesmer? Cause these 2 class’ seem to have their skills up all the time while my other characters have this long timer for ALL SKILLS!

All of Theif’s weapon skills run off an energy system called initiative. Thief has 12 points of initiative and can have up to 15 initiative while traited. Skills have an initiative cost ranging from 2-6 where most normal skills cost 3 (only Shadow Return costs 2), skill that are all about damage generally cost 5, and high end utility skills (Cloak n Dagger, Infiltrator’s Arrow and Black Powder) cost 6. Initiative replenishes at a rate of 1 point per 1.67 seconds, meaning if a Thief uses all his/her initiative, they won’t be able to use another weapon skill for another 5.01 seconds and won’t be able to spam skills for even longer unless they use traited abilities or Roll for Initiative (a backwards launching stun break that grants 6 init on a 60 second cool down.)
All of Thief’s utility skills have a 30-60 second cooldown, all stealthing utilities have a 60 second cooldown with the exception of Smoke Wall which can grant stealth if one uses a leap finisher through it.
For heals, Signet of Malice and Withdraw are on a 15 second cooldown, and Hide in Shadow is on a 30 second.
For Elites, Basilisk Venom is 45 seconds, Dagger Storm is 90 seconds and Thieves Guild is 180 seconds.

Sprawl.3891:

Lukin.4061:

It is funny when people complain about thief burst dmg while doing nothing to prevent it If they nerf the bs dmg, then all truly powerful builds will become more common (like bleeders or dazers) – that will become a scary day for those that are still having problems with backstabs.

so you always have full endurance and your defensive abilities are never on cooldown? you are beyond pro sir.

Well if I get ambushed without endurance and defensive utilities on cd most of the classes can kill me in a few second: war/thief/ele/mesmer/ even ranger have burst builds to kill unprepared people fast. Its just strange that only a burst thief gets most of the qq, yet being one of the weaker builds for this class.

From what we understand, Backstab is getting a nerf on its damage as well as burst in general being nerfed across the board for all classes.

Sprawl.3891:

Lukin.4061:

It is funny when people complain about thief burst dmg while doing nothing to prevent it If they nerf the bs dmg, then all truly powerful builds will become more common (like bleeders or dazers) – that will become a scary day for those that are still having problems with backstabs.

so you always have full endurance and your defensive abilities are never on cooldown? you are beyond pro sir.

The only trait that boosts Thief’s endurance is Feline Grace which will all them to do 2 dodge rolls then one more after a brief pause before having to wait as long as everyone else to dodge. (Signet of Agility (on active) and Wild Strike refill it too but are far from granting inifinite endurance) If you want a class that has a lot of endurance, check out Ele’s traits. (Also Ranger and Engie can recover endurance at 50% faster.)
As for the cooldown thing. Look at my breakdown on initiative and cooldowns.

Dual.8953:

The only trait that boosts Thief’s endurance is Feline Grace which will all them to do 2 dodge rolls then one more after a brief pause before having to wait as long as everyone else to dodge. (Signet of Agility (on active) and Wild Strike refill it too but are far from granting inifinite endurance) If you want a class that has a lot of endurance, check out Ele’s traits. (Also Ranger and Engie can recover endurance at 50% faster.)
As for the cooldown thing. Look at my breakdown on initiative and cooldowns.

We’ve also got a utility skill that refills our endurance, but it rarely sees use.

Lukin.4061:

Sprawl.3891:

Lukin.4061:

It is funny when people complain about thief burst dmg while doing nothing to prevent it If they nerf the bs dmg, then all truly powerful builds will become more common (like bleeders or dazers) – that will become a scary day for those that are still having problems with backstabs.

so you always have full endurance and your defensive abilities are never on cooldown? you are beyond pro sir.

Well if I get ambushed without endurance and defensive utilities on cd most of the classes can kill me in a few second: war/thief/ele/mesmer/ even ranger have burst builds to kill unprepared people fast. Its just strange that only a burst thief gets most of the qq, yet being one of the weaker builds for this class.

please tell me how any of those classes can drop 15-20k damage (low end) in 1-2 seconds with zero setup. Btw i play mesmer and ranger regularly so dont lie. thanks.

Project Shrine Maiden.9623:

Anet, what are you doing about it?

right…

yet people say oh they are not op or unbalanced at all…

welcome to theif wars 1 the sequel to guildwars 1 =D

Well on the warrior its not that hard. frenzy, shield charge, enemy gets stunned, switch wep, 100 blades and whirlwind attack in the direction he’s now fleeing.

Can remember a screenshot of a warrior doing 28k damage with this combo in sPvP

Sprawl.3891:

Lukin.4061:

Sprawl.3891:

Lukin.4061:

It is funny when people complain about thief burst dmg while doing nothing to prevent it If they nerf the bs dmg, then all truly powerful builds will become more common (like bleeders or dazers) – that will become a scary day for those that are still having problems with backstabs.

so you always have full endurance and your defensive abilities are never on cooldown? you are beyond pro sir.

Well if I get ambushed without endurance and defensive utilities on cd most of the classes can kill me in a few second: war/thief/ele/mesmer/ even ranger have burst builds to kill unprepared people fast. Its just strange that only a burst thief gets most of the qq, yet being one of the weaker builds for this class.

please tell me how any of those classes can drop 15-20k damage (low end) in 1-2 seconds with zero setup. Btw i play mesmer and ranger regularly so dont lie. thanks.

20k Damage Low End huh? It’s ridiculous out of whack stats like this that cause problems.

I know burst damage needs to be nerfed across the board for multie classes, so I’m not defending a thieves burst ability, but when one person says a “statistic” people that like to exaggerate and repeat the information in larger numbers that end up being ridiculous.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Dual.8953:

The only trait that boosts Thief’s endurance is Feline Grace which will all them to do 2 dodge rolls then one more after a brief pause before having to wait as long as everyone else to dodge. (Signet of Agility (on active) and Wild Strike refill it too but are far from granting inifinite endurance) If you want a class that has a lot of endurance, check out Ele’s traits. (Also Ranger and Engie can recover endurance at 50% faster.)
As for the cooldown thing. Look at my breakdown on initiative and cooldowns.

We’ve also got a utility skill that refills our endurance, but it rarely sees use.

I mentioned it. It’s called Signet of Agility. Gains Endurance for every nearby Ally.

So here is my two cents.

John has even stated, and I completely agree 100%, that thieves are supposed to be the slippery class in the game, and so have the highest mobility and escape skills. For the most part they have done well to give Thieves abilities to get out of trouble. Because of this they have given them low armor/hp because they are about not been detected, and evading attacks in the first place, the emphasis is not to be hit. Warriors on the other hand are supposed to tank through the damage while giving that damage back to you, and hence have higher armor, and HP. Both styles increase survivability…one via escapes, stealths etc, and one via endurance and armor.

However, you cannot give the thief a large array of escape abilities and ALSO give them abilities that can hit for19k. Someone in WvW last night got one shotted for this much by a thief. Now even if that isn’t true they still can down someone in a few hits, and yet, because of their escape abilities the other class is lucky to get one or two shots on them. A thief can extend out a fight for a long time if they know how to use their escape abilities so why give them such huge burst dps. On top of that thieves also have high dmg skills that are extremely mobile, so the other class has difficulty escaping. I don’t mind this so much, but combined with such high burst dps it’s a problem, and needs to be toned down. At least with warriors they become immobile with their biggest damage dealers and so they have to be smart and a good player to know when to use them.

Sigh, people who don’t have the slightest clue or haven’t even bothered to go through the intro and try backstab out call out numbers like 19k bs, jesus be with us. Highest I ever managed to land was 14.4k backstab and ironically, that was against another thief >_> Got some 700-800 games on my thief.

Also show me one class without a stun breaker ability. Oh it was on cooldown? well boohoo, kinda happens to thieves too when the only stun breaker they run (shadowstep) is on cooldown and a warrior/mesmer/glass ele catches you with one CC, you blow up.

I can survive bs thieves on my ele just fine, unless they catch me with all cds down. Then I die, and that is absolutely fine. But if I have time to get protection up between the steal CnD → bs, there won’t be a problem with that thief anymore.

Oh well, maybe they nerf that. Time to bust out more bow condi builds, god people cry in whisper like mad when they can’t get their head around how that build functions.

Ember.4326:

Sigh, people who don’t have the slightest clue or haven’t even bothered to go through the intro and try backstab out call out numbers like 19k bs, jesus be with us. Highest I ever managed to land was 14.4k backstab and ironically, that was against another thief >_> Got some 700-800 games on my thief.

Also show me one class without a stun breaker ability. Oh it was on cooldown? well boohoo, kinda happens to thieves too when the only stun breaker they run (shadowstep) is on cooldown and a warrior/mesmer/glass ele catches you with one CC, you blow up.

I can survive bs thieves on my ele just fine, unless they catch me with all cds down. Then I die, and that is absolutely fine. But if I have time to get protection up between the steal CnD -> bs, there won’t be a problem with that thief anymore.

Oh well, maybe they nerf that. Time to bust out more bow condi builds, god people cry in whisper like mad when they can’t get their head around how that build functions.

Yeah 20k low end is blatantly full of kitten. If you got hit for 20k your probably pure 100% glass cannon using some ability to make u take more damage. the only time ive ever hit for 20k was on a glass warrior using frenzy.

The only nerf that I have read about wasnt even really a confirmed nerf. One of the devs replied to a topic stating that they are “Investigating” thief burst damage. Which to me means that they are well aware that it needs a strict adjustment.

To everyone else my advice is to not run glass builds anymore till its fixed. Been running my mesmer with a decent amount of toughness and while the spike gets me low it doesnt kill me outright. Gives me enough time to pop off decoy and get my clones rolling. Toughness will save your life.

I get hit for amazing amounts of damage in this game, and not just by thieves, considering I have like over 3k armor. Toughness does not seem to scale as well as damage. This of course gets exaserbated by the thief who does the most damage off each ability.

Not to mention that the stats allowed in Spvp are not as diverse as WvW. For exampe there is no jewel for toughness and precision.

Archaon.6245:

Lukin.4061:

It is funny when people complain about thief burst dmg while doing nothing to prevent it If they nerf the bs dmg, then all truly powerful builds will become more common (like bleeders or dazers) – that will become a scary day for those that are still having problems with backstabs.

I’m testing my own condition build just for it…just for make noobs cry even louder on forums, louder than never before

This, Anet should look into all the thieves abilities and balance them accordingly. The daze build is powerful as well.

It is pointless and lazy fixing one aspect and waiting for more complaints to mount up against another aspect to deal with it. All they are ensuring by taking this amount of time addressing the obvious with easy fixes -been done before countless times in countless games- is push people into leave the game.

It is very disappointing that they are taking this much time to address something so obvious to everyone. It does not bode well that for every imbalance , the same agonizingly slow process of balancing is gonna happen. That will only make people fed up. Why spend your time, money and effort building your character if they will be weak compared to other classes.

Might as well make this thieves wars2 or mesmers wars2 or just leave the game.

Foss.4830:

Ember.4326:

Sigh, people who don’t have the slightest clue or haven’t even bothered to go through the intro and try backstab out call out numbers like 19k bs, jesus be with us. Highest I ever managed to land was 14.4k backstab and ironically, that was against another thief >_> Got some 700-800 games on my thief.

Also show me one class without a stun breaker ability. Oh it was on cooldown? well boohoo, kinda happens to thieves too when the only stun breaker they run (shadowstep) is on cooldown and a warrior/mesmer/glass ele catches you with one CC, you blow up.

I can survive bs thieves on my ele just fine, unless they catch me with all cds down. Then I die, and that is absolutely fine. But if I have time to get protection up between the steal CnD -> bs, there won’t be a problem with that thief anymore.

Oh well, maybe they nerf that. Time to bust out more bow condi builds, god people cry in whisper like mad when they can’t get their head around how that build functions.

Yeah 20k low end is blatantly full of kitten. If you got hit for 20k your probably pure 100% glass cannon using some ability to make u take more damage. the only time ive ever hit for 20k was on a glass warrior using frenzy.

The only nerf that I have read about wasnt even really a confirmed nerf. One of the devs replied to a topic stating that they are “Investigating” thief burst damage. Which to me means that they are well aware that it needs a strict adjustment.

To everyone else my advice is to not run glass builds anymore till its fixed. Been running my mesmer with a decent amount of toughness and while the spike gets me low it doesnt kill me outright. Gives me enough time to pop off decoy and get my clones rolling. Toughness will save your life.

All the other classes not playing with certain builds because of one single OP class does not make sense..fix that class=people get to play the way they want and are happy.

20k is easy to accomplish in WvW because of the amount of low level glass cannons in gear that is lower than their current level.