Guild Wars 2

I am curious. Not debating if they are or not, but just explain to me how they are OP. what makes Turret Engineer OP. I dont play that build so I know very little about how its played. So I am asking what is making them OP. Because when I play, lets say, a Kit Engineer, I dont experience the same level of OPness that others see from Turret Engineers.

I honestly hope if they do get nerfed, that the developers dont effect other parts of the class that dont have anything to do with turrets.

Well, they are not exactly OP. They are just extremely good in one thing: holding a point. They can hold a point against multiple opponents, and are sure to win in 1v1 against most of the meta builds, without ever being decapped: on the contrary, most of their counters need to be at range (mesmer, ranger).

In team pvp, they are not really an issue: they are not mobile, so they don’t suit the game mode well. But in soloq, if you’re in low tier (and recently, even in higher tiers), you will always have players in your team who will find very smart to 1v1 the turret engi on a point, so in that regard they can be considered very strong, if not OP, in soloq.

A lot of people also complain that the build takes no skill, is too rewarding for the time investment and relies too much on AI. But that’s not really an issue. Every shatter mesmer knows how infuriating it is to loose to a power ranger, even knowing perfectly that the ranger has absolutely zero skill. This game has professions who are meant to be easier (guardian, ranger, warrior), and that’s fine by me.

It’s hard to figure out what the legitimate complaining is and where simple (I died and I dont like dieing) comes in.

From what I can tell.

Turret engineers are a build that sacrifices massive burst potential in order for a less avoidable on point pressure type of damage. Meaning they do a steady stream of damage in a specific area (the part where all of there turrets are in range of) from multiple angles. This is a soft counter for builds that rely purely on active defense. Who cares if you block the rocket when the flame turret is right next to you waiting for you to drop the shield.

So a steady stream of difficult to mitigate damage. (not really that difficult. But many people don’t want to take time to kill the turrets ahead of time. which killing even 2 makes the damage mUCH more manageable)

Having this outsourced damage does two things. First it allows the engineer to spec in a tanky manner. He KNOWS he will have reliable damage so he can plan for it accordingly. Improving his survivability before the fight even happens.

Second. It allows him to play in a different manner than most builds.

Im sure everyone is familiar with a minion mancer necromancer. Like the turret engineer it partly utilized outsourced damage in order to be able to manipulate there own stats. the difference between the two comes here. A minion mancer necromancer in order to survive combat relies on mitigation through weakening conditions. Weakness,Poison,Chill,Cripple,Immobilize, And blind. It LITERALLY fights primarily through debilitation. Weakining the opponent and increasing its strength in comparison.

It can do this because it has a steady stream of outside CC/DPS that allows it to focus on the other aspect of the fight. However its reliance on conditions and its poor recovery ability makes certain that it will NEVER be truly OP in the current state of the game (meaning the meta will have to shift significantly for them to reach top tier)

The turret engineer relies on a similar but different setup. Turret engineers have access to a large number of boons and a mix of hard/soft cc while still having decent personal burst options. They aren’t heavily reliant on easily cleansed conditions. And they can survive without there boons for a decent amount of time as well. They also have quite a high recovery potential in combat. And there on point CC capability makes them incredibly difficult for some builds to pin down long enough to kill when turrets are shooting them.

So the difference is that the capabilities of a turret engineer are more easily manipulated by the player. More often than not. The turret engineers effectiveness in the fight is actually decided before the fight starts. Based on the build of there opponents and the turret engineers pre planning in placement.

This tends to create an interesting situation. Namely. Turret engineers are in a way fighting there enemy before the person is even in range. So when someone ENTERS that range without taking care of certain things (Where are the turrets, What turrets are they using, How close are the turrets to the point, Where are the safe spots from the previously mentioned turrets.) They tend to have a more difficult time than they would fighting other builds. Because they already gave the advantage to the turret engineer ahead of time.

This lack of fore sight causes alot of people to die to turret engineers. And many people cant accept that the turret engineer had the advantage simply becuase there victim didnt properly engage the engineer in question. This can cause people to see them as over powered. Simply because they entered a fight with the deck stacked against them and expected it to go well.

Here’s what it comes down to:

-They’re good on point.
- Enough damage/cc to kill people (especially glassy builds, ones where people like to pretend trying to burst people down are “skillful”, but thats another story)
- They don’t get slapped around like a thief/Shatter mesmer would like.
- People hate AI.
- People refuse to see any downsides or listen to logic.
- Engineer is flawed, and must play a kit build or otherwise they’re “too easy”, thus, taboo.
- People hate anything they have ever died to.
- Rather than adapt, people prefer to nerf anything that pops up that counters them or slows them down.

Most things fit into these categories, I’d say.

Turret engis are OP because they deal respectable damage, while being tanky due to their amulet and the passive buffs from the turrets within 600 range. They also have a lot of cc, and are really easy to play because the turrets are constantly attacking for you so you don’t have to worry about offense and can focus on defense. Basically, they are OP because everything is passive apart from setup, and they are really strong relative to the effort/skill/work required.

Shadelang.3012:

This lack of fore sight causes alot of people to die to turret engineers. And many people cant accept that the turret engineer had the advantage simply becuase there victim didnt properly engage the engineer in question. This can cause people to see them as over powered. Simply because they entered a fight with the deck stacked against them and expected it to go well.

That’s very true. However, don’t you think the build is incredibly strong in 1v1, even at the best levels of play? The advice you only get on the forums is “avoid them”, and that makes sense. But you have to understand that for a lot of players, it’s not fun to have a build that’s so good in 1v1 with so little effort.

Braindead and effective. Easy dodge bait easy stun break bait.

Do I need to say anything more? Just don’t get me started..

Sorel in all honestly there not that strong in 1v1 in reality. Its seriously a case of poor engagement. People are NOT taking the time to properly understand how the damage is being dealt to them, where its coming from, and how it can be avoided. There CHOOSING not to.

Time and again people have explained the capabilities of individual turrets and how they can be countered. Flame turret is extremely squishy. Rocket turret is also squishy and heavily relies on LOS to do damage. Its most dangerous attack is a high arcing rocket that can be blocked in any number of ways. Or reflected/destroyed. Thumper is the only true obnoxious turret and its probably the key turret of the engineer conquest build. So its meant to be.

YES its strong in 1v1 in its IDEAL circumstances. But then what build ISN’T?

The difference is that this build STARTS in its ideal circumstance and gets weaker over time. Where other builds have to create there ideal circumstance. Thats all.

BlackTruth.6813:

Braindead and effective. Easy dodge bait easy stun break bait.

Do I need to say anything more? Just don’t get me started..

^ They’re easy and annoying, but that’s not the same thing as OP.

That said, they’re VERY OP low-tier because lower tier players get absolutely wrecked by them.

High tier, they’re still easy to play but more “balanced”, maybe even a slight bit weak due to immobility of the build.

The problem these days isn’t one turret engi. It’s when a team has 2 turret engis and that’s when it gets beyond overpowered because you CANT ignore 2 points so you’re forced to create an outnumbered situation for your team because you can’t beat a turret engi with even numbers.

ronpierce.2760:

BlackTruth.6813:

Braindead and effective. Easy dodge bait easy stun break bait.

Do I need to say anything more? Just don’t get me started..

^ They’re easy and annoying, but that’s not the same thing as OP.

That said, they’re VERY OP low-tier because lower tier players get absolutely wrecked by them.

High tier, they’re still easy to play but more “balanced”, maybe even a slight bit weak due to immobility of the build.

I’m aware that easy and effective does not mean OP. It’s just that it’s a giant middle finger to certain builds it’s not even funny.

Why play stick shift when you can go automatic right? HUEHUEHUE.

BlackTruth.6813:

ronpierce.2760:

BlackTruth.6813:

Braindead and effective. Easy dodge bait easy stun break bait.

Do I need to say anything more? Just don’t get me started..

^ They’re easy and annoying, but that’s not the same thing as OP.

That said, they’re VERY OP low-tier because lower tier players get absolutely wrecked by them.

High tier, they’re still easy to play but more “balanced”, maybe even a slight bit weak due to immobility of the build.

I’m aware that easy and effective does not mean OP. It’s just that it’s a giant middle finger to certain builds it’s not even funny.

Why play stick shift when you can go automatic right? HUEHUEHUE.

Well, I’m not really arguing that point, though it is HIGHLY subjective. Some enjoy twitchy “hard” gameplay, not everyone can do that, and you could argue that builds like this are okay for certain players. I’d say I’m on the fence. Rather than destroying it, i wish they’d reduce the power of turrets a little and make it so that if you spec heavy into turrets you get bonus damage to your own attacks to promote more effort from the engineer.

However, like I’ve said, the Engineer itself is highly flawed. Any “specialized” build that isn’t revolving around kits will always turn out “easy” like this. Engineer was built with a trap already in place. :/

People mostly complain about them here from unorganized play where a lot of players don’t recognize builds, don’t know counters, and don’t have an alt to switch and willing to play to that is set up to counter other classes at the start of round. I don’t think they are op at all, but they are good at dealing with the people running current celestial meta builds. Old school power and condy can handle them pretty easily. I have 2 v 1 and 3 v 1 turret engys on my shatter mesmer against a trashy team that runs 5 of them in US prime time. The one thing they will do is get the decap, which can maybe swing the round in their favor, but you should be able to kill them if you leave the point and know what you are doing.

They are good in uncoordinated games which means they dominate in solo queue. They are also easy to play

Shadelang nailed it.

Shadelang.3012:

Sorel in all honestly there not that strong in 1v1 in reality. Its seriously a case of poor engagement. People are NOT taking the time to properly understand how the damage is being dealt to them, where its coming from, and how it can be avoided. There CHOOSING not to.

Time and again people have explained the capabilities of individual turrets and how they can be countered. Flame turret is extremely squishy. Rocket turret is also squishy and heavily relies on LOS to do damage. Its most dangerous attack is a high arcing rocket that can be blocked in any number of ways. Or reflected/destroyed. Thumper is the only true obnoxious turret and its probably the key turret of the engineer conquest build. So its meant to be.

YES its strong in 1v1 in its IDEAL circumstances. But then what build ISN’T?

The difference is that this build STARTS in its ideal circumstance and gets weaker over time. Where other builds have to create there ideal circumstance. Thats all.

Ok, you write a great post, the one caveat is you need to learn your ’there’s and ’their’s. “There” is where something is located “The engie placed his turrets over there”, if you’re referring to something that belongs to a person use “their”- “Other builds have to create their ideal circumstances”.

Now, back to explaining why turret engies are… whatever they are.

Some of you are forgetting about the CONQUEST we’re playing. Turret starts at ideal circumstances yes, this means he’ll be able to hold the point/take a point while the enemy is trying to kill the the rocket turret etc, gaining points = win the game. And taking out the rocket turret it’s just if the enemy knows what he is doing… horrible matchmaking puts players of all skill lvls in the teams, I’ve seen ppl dying to a turret engi 2v1 so many times it’s not even funny.

You can imagine 2 new players buying the game (same skill level), one rolls a turret engi and one plays something else… Then put them against each other fighting for a point, it’s going to be like 6months at least before he’d have the skill to take the starting level turret engi down. Ofc during this time the turret engi will also get better and the situation will stay the same. Eventually even if you hit the skill cap with turret engi, he’s still going to be holding the point and contribute to the win more than the player trying to kill him.

You can talk about out rotating or countering all you want but the thing is… rotation takes a whole team of skilled players and counter builds suck everywhere else in the game. What if there is more than one turret engi? What if the turret engi is supported by cond removal? Turret engies don’t just queue solo nowadays, ppl want easy wins… and to farm points on the farmingboard.

Basically it’s a highly effective automated build with AI and tank stats while putting out huge dmg holding the point, ~zero skill is needed to have positive effect on your team winning the game. I do get that some easy to play builds are good to have for new ppl to get into the game but the effectiveness of a zero skill build should cap somewhere lower and shouldn’t require a much experienced player to deal with it. It’s unfair and idiotic design.

its easy.. in a game BASED ON HOLDING POINTS FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE turret engie comes out king they take longer than any other class to down 1v1 and require specific classes/builds to do so. the time it takes to even get to the engie safely is plenty for his team to come and help him so you die anyway. to take them down quickly you need to take away team mates from other areas leaving them open to being taken

when there is 2 turret engies the standard fight 5v4 on other points does not apply and you are stuffed either way because the enemy now has steady pressure and constant healing while on the point and you do not.

PEOPLE NEED TO REMEMBER ENGIES HAVE LEGS AND CAN MOVE FROM ONE POINT TO ANOTHER EVEN IF IT IS JUST ONE.

Sorel.4870:

Shadelang.3012:

This lack of fore sight causes alot of people to die to turret engineers. And many people cant accept that the turret engineer had the advantage simply becuase there victim didnt properly engage the engineer in question. This can cause people to see them as over powered. Simply because they entered a fight with the deck stacked against them and expected it to go well.

That’s very true. However, don’t you think the build is incredibly strong in 1v1, even at the best levels of play? The advice you only get on the forums is “avoid them”, and that makes sense. But you have to understand that for a lot of players, it’s not fun to have a build that’s so good in 1v1 with so little effort.

No, because it’s easy to kill that kind of engineer using e.g. constant condition overload, stream of direct damage that is pretty much constant pressure or both.

Then again I know how to kill it since I have an engineer and have every other class too….

I posted a comment in another thread that I think is relevant here:

“I made one of these turret engis to see what the hoopla was about, and literally as soon as I began playing I was able to vastly outperform other players. As in, I spent 5 minutes reading the turret engi breakdown on metabattle and that was enough to face stomp in sPvP. After ~5 matches I had figured out enough tricks with the engineer that I was able to outsmart the builds who were gunning for me long enough for another teammate to come and stomp them so I could get back to picking my nose or looking at clouds out the window. It would usually take 2-3 players to take me down, during which time my teammates would be 4v3 or 4v2. At first I was just using it to complete the engi daily, but I stopped and now I don’t even want to play it because it’s unfair and unfun. Might figure out some other engi specs just so those tomes of knowledge don’t go to waste on him…

And this is coming from someone who is a total noob at sPvP in general, so people who are better than me can no doubt pull even more tricks out of the build."

People are saying on here that it’s only good at holding one point, but that isn’t true either. I’d pick up my turrets after defending a point and take them to where the big team fight was happening for an almost guaranteed wipe of the enemy team.

Here is why?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Do-Something-About-Turret-Engis/page/5#post4953129

ppl are becoming soo bad with this kittening turrets… they don’t learn to rotate well and strategic teamplay , only swag on a point with turret and nothing more…..

plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
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plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret
plz anet remove turret

+ today is full of nobrain thief… ty anet for this good ESPORTZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Ross Biddle.2367:

Shadelang.3012:

Sorel in all honestly there not that strong in 1v1 in reality. Its seriously a case of poor engagement. People are NOT taking the time to properly understand how the damage is being dealt to them, where its coming from, and how it can be avoided. There CHOOSING not to.

Time and again people have explained the capabilities of individual turrets and how they can be countered. Flame turret is extremely squishy. Rocket turret is also squishy and heavily relies on LOS to do damage. Its most dangerous attack is a high arcing rocket that can be blocked in any number of ways. Or reflected/destroyed. Thumper is the only true obnoxious turret and its probably the key turret of the engineer conquest build. So its meant to be.

YES its strong in 1v1 in its IDEAL circumstances. But then what build ISN’T?

The difference is that this build STARTS in its ideal circumstance and gets weaker over time. Where other builds have to create there ideal circumstance. Thats all.

Ok, you write a great post, the one caveat is you need to learn your ’there’s and ’their’s. “There” is where something is located “The engie placed his turrets over there”, if you’re referring to something that belongs to a person use “their”- “Other builds have to create their ideal circumstances”.

Now, back to explaining why turret engies are… whatever they are.

Haha. You’re definitely correct on that. Im afraid playing games has spoiled my grammar for a rather long time. I began to type things on how they sound for convenience and leave the resulting mental audio as the method of their interpretation. Ill try to work on that. Im glad you enjoyed the post despite that however.

They are not OP at all. They are just strong at 1v1 holding the point. d/d ele or cele rifle ele can do the same job and a lot more. Just send one zerker class + 1 whatever and turret engi will die in literally few seconds, assuming you won’t suck and let him use the heal, but even then it will just take few more seconds.

Couple problems with it

1. Strong against players who don’t coordinate and rotate well. You can easily finish off a turret engi 2v1 and move on or ambush them off a point and force them into a choice of losing a lot of HP or dropping turrets off-point. If they do the latter, you just disengage.
2. Little skill required. Someone with no prior experience can play it and be extremely effective in low and medium skill matches.

Pelle Ossa. Im afraid I wont quote your post simply because of the spam making it so that it isn’t worth the space it would take.

You say that playing turret engineers discourages learning proper rotations. When in all actuality turret engineers REQUIRE that of their opponents. And also gives the turret engineer in question a front line seats to the results of poor rotations.

In example. A turret engineer can watch the mini map while waiting for an encounter and fairly easily predict who on the enemy team is coming towards them. Simply by watching the rotations of his allies and the enemies they’re engaged with.

If they know an elementalist is coming there way they can spread out there turrets to avoid aoe. If they know a warrior is coming they can make sure each individual turret has line of sight on the kiting area. A thief is countered by making sure the thumper is NEAR the engineer. A mesmer that engages from stealth will often find it difficult to recover from a pre set thumper overcharge nuking his phantasmal beserker early on and taking a rocket to the face as a result.

But back to rotations.

A turret engineer by its very nature fulfills a role that hambows used to (and to an extent still do in a more limited capacity) as well as MM necros used to (due to the shift in meta however this build is no longer a viable or reliable pvp build until the base problems with it are repaired)

Hambows and MM necros used to PUNISH poor rotations. Which is part of what made them so frustrating to fight. And they did it in two ways.

First the hambow which does there job in the opposite direction of the MM Necro and Turret Engineer. Hambow Warriors punish poor defensive rotations. I.E. They punished enemy teams when the enemy team attempted to counter that high CC AOEing monster with something vulnerable to it. So poor movement on players in the field was discouraged by the prospect of running into these when you went to defend a point.

This had the effect of causing builds that are poor matches to be afraid of engaging them on point (which frankly they should be in that situation).

Remember that last line because its important.

On to the minion mancer necro. Which fulfilled the opposing role for a long time and is more similar to the turret engi. If different in its implementation and in game mechanics. But thats irrelevant on a purely rotation based discussion.

MM Necros fulfilled the role of punishing poor offensive rotations. They’re point defense builds. Their role is to make certain the point they guard does not fall QUICKLY. In other words. Their job is to tie down one or more players to buy the rest of their team time to react. And they did it amazingly well until the shift in meta that brought with it liberal applications of there soft counters (Aoe conditions)

As such. A team with poor offensive rotations often found itself committing too little or too much to decap that final point. OR they abandoned that final point for a long period of time. Which created an interesting synergy between the MM necro and his team.

MM necros synergised extremely with a high speed roamer or two in their group. When one or two of those types of characters the MMancer became a kind of bait. (Hey come attack me no don’t look at that thief over there aaaand your dead). In this respect if implemented correctly an MM necro usually fought specific members of the enemy team multiple times over the course of the fight. And each time the enemy would engage more cautiously. Buying more and more time. OR they would send multiple opponents to the MMancer. And likely lose other points.

So the enemy team was often afraid of committing resources to taking out a build entirely designed to create EXACTLY that response.

Royal.2693:

They are not OP at all. They are just strong at 1v1 holding the point. d/d ele or cele rifle ele can do the same job and a lot more. Just send one zerker class + 1 whatever and turret engi will die in literally few seconds, assuming you won’t suck and let him use the heal, but even then it will just take few more seconds.

Except a d/d ele or cele engi would get destroyed by a turret engi 1v1 on holding a point. Just about every competitive player that’s commented on turret engis has said they’re overpowered and need a nerf.

Turret engis require a disproportionate amount of coordination from a team in comparison with literally any other spec or class to deal with them which is what makes them overpowered and a tremendous pain to deal with in general pub games.

Saying “just send more than 1 person to deal with the turret engi” is a red flag.
Turret engi being banned in 2v2 tournaments is a red flag.
The correct play 9 times out of 10 against a turret engi is to just ignore them and go for the other points is a red flag.

Just because turret engis don’t guarantee wins every single match doesn’t make them NOT overpowered.

(almost done) back to the turret engineer. The turret engineer is currently fulfilling the same role the old MM necro used to fill. Only unlike the MM necro the things that successfully pushed MM completely out of the meta have less effect on the turret engineer. But the engineer has OTHER more relevant weaknesses.

What this means is that the turret engineer fulfills the same role to a different set of enemy players.

MM Necros were soft countered by builds that had one of two things. First. The ability to fight without being pinned down by disabling conditions. And second the ability to produce continuous area of effect skills.

Turret engineers counters are the ability to produce high power based damage on individual targets multiple times (clearing turrets) or the ability to apply high condition based damage on a single target. These are in a sense, Opposite weaknesses to the MM necro. But no less applicable.

The issue is many people running builds that could EASILY kill a MM Necro without even trying nowadays don’t grasp the difference in methods by which the MM necro and Turret engineer can be destroyed. So they commit to engagements while misunderstanding there enemy from the very beginning. Often attempting what they would against the MM necro of old and dieing in the process. (the S/D thief that shadowsteps in for a quick burst only to get smashed by a thumper turret when before that was the ideal way to fight an MM necro)

But thats away from the point.

The point is that all THREE of these builds required at the time unique methods of fighting from there opponents. You had to fight these differently than you would ANY OTHER BUILD on the field at that time.

Players that can adapt to this manage to adapt their rotations as well. And you start seeing people with the correct soft counters engaging and killing turret engineers. (mesmers (even/especially torment mesmers) and rangers most notably)

Edit: Id also like to note that the single most fun I have ever had in this game was fighting hambow warriors with a MM necro. Both builds posses soft counters to the other builds play style. And they both fulfilled opposing roles. This made for some VERY fun fights by masters of each playstyle.

I really hope the number of threads explaining how to take out turret engineers, the fact that pvp is 5v5 and not 1v1, helps people adapt to fighting them. If you think you need to engage 1v1 against a turret engineer you are doing it wrong.

I like that engineers have an easier build that isn’t as effective to play in ranked. If I’m tired one day, I want to be able to help my team more than when I’m too tired to play my favorite builds well. It is lower skill, but not none, and it adds more tactics to pvp not less.

If you think turrets are too strong, just play the build for a week.

Loboling.5293:

I really hope the number of threads explaining how to take out turret engineers, the fact that pvp is 5v5 and not 1v1, helps people adapt to fighting them. If you think you need to engage 1v1 against a turret engineer you are doing it wrong.

I like that engineers have an easier build that isn’t as effective to play in ranked. If I’m tired one day, I want to be able to help my team more than when I’m too tired to play my favorite builds well. It is lower skill, but not none, and it adds more tactics to pvp not less.

If you think turrets are too strong, just play the build for a week.

It might be best to say that they should play the build against teams that have proper rotations and a firm grasp on that builds mechanics. As the build is designed to punish teams with poor rotations it does quite well against teams without communication. Of course. Against a team with proper rotations. The build is worthless. And I don’t mean partly worthless either. When a turret engineer is countered it is countered COMPLETELY. From that point on they have no impact on the fate of the match.

Which is entirely how deterrence builds work. Once their opponent has no need to be afraid of them. They stop working.

So I see a lot of people explaining how to kill turrets first, how they aren’t used in high tier, how you can just outrotate them, etc.

My opinion though, is that high tier premade teams are not representative of pvp. Most people do a couple of matches in soloqueue a day, they don’t have a team nor do they want a team. They want to enjoy pvp. And then you get stuff like 3-4 turret engis in a game, which is just boring, slow, uninteresting gameplay. The problem is not that they are OP (although I do think they should be toned down a bit, turret hp, damage scaling, something), it’s that playing vs them or even with them just doesn’t feel pvp, it’s stationary structures doing stuff. And sure you can ignore the engi and play on the other points, but should a single spec of a single class have such a gamechanging impact? I don’t think so.

Negativity.5801:

Royal.2693:

They are not OP at all. They are just strong at 1v1 holding the point. d/d ele or cele rifle ele can do the same job and a lot more. Just send one zerker class + 1 whatever and turret engi will die in literally few seconds, assuming you won’t suck and let him use the heal, but even then it will just take few more seconds.

Except a d/d ele or cele engi would get destroyed by a turret engi 1v1 on holding a point. Just about every competitive player that’s commented on turret engis has said they’re overpowered and need a nerf.

Turret engis require a disproportionate amount of coordination from a team in comparison with literally any other spec or class to deal with them which is what makes them overpowered and a tremendous pain to deal with in general pub games.

Saying “just send more than 1 person to deal with the turret engi” is a red flag.
Turret engi being banned in 2v2 tournaments is a red flag.
The correct play 9 times out of 10 against a turret engi is to just ignore them and go for the other points is a red flag.

Just because turret engis don’t guarantee wins every single match doesn’t make them NOT overpowered.

So what? Thief would get destroyed by almost anything 1v1. Ranger would get destroyed by ele/engi 1v1 in matter of seconds. It’s a 5v5 game, not 1v1.

Shadelang.3012:

Loboling.5293:

I really hope the number of threads explaining how to take out turret engineers, the fact that pvp is 5v5 and not 1v1, helps people adapt to fighting them. If you think you need to engage 1v1 against a turret engineer you are doing it wrong.

I like that engineers have an easier build that isn’t as effective to play in ranked. If I’m tired one day, I want to be able to help my team more than when I’m too tired to play my favorite builds well. It is lower skill, but not none, and it adds more tactics to pvp not less.

If you think turrets are too strong, just play the build for a week.

It might be best to say that they should play the build against teams that have proper rotations and a firm grasp on that builds mechanics. As the build is designed to punish teams with poor rotations it does quite well against teams without communication. Of course. Against a team with proper rotations. The build is worthless. And I don’t mean partly worthless either. When a turret engineer is countered it is countered COMPLETELY. From that point on they have no impact on the fate of the match.

Which is entirely how deterrence builds work. Once their opponent has no need to be afraid of them. They stop working.

The thing is, if you play against teams with poor communication and win, you’ll move up to higher tiers and even a team of randoms (all I play) we understand how to deal with a turret engineer. If someone does try to solo a turret engineer, we tell him to stop and they usually do. Sure, if you just started pvping and you’re playing turret it will be stronger than many builds you could play, but that will stop after you win enough games. People (mostly) in higher tiers know that (even without communication) attacking a turret engineer 1v1 is silly, and they focus on playing the game as it is, a team game.

@ Loboling On that note I can agree with you. I myself played turret engineer for quite a long time both pre buff and post buff (though it is NOT my main in any sense of the word). The buffs they received gets them to a certain point where the build itself simply stops working.

After all its a deterrence build. It forces the enemy team to constantly be aware that it is there. And for most people thats a pretty big thorn in their side. Constantly having to remember that there is a difficult to assail point.

At some point in a players experience with this they go one of two ways.

Making it irrelevant by avoidance. Sacrifice the point to secure the other 2 and the map mechanic. Something easily done by teams with proper coordination and combat prowess. If they can win an even fight they can control 2 points and have an EXTRA person handling the match mechanic.

Or by making it irrelevant by providing one of its soft counters to the field. Which is worth doing is entirely up to the individual teams of course.

Royal.2693:

So what? Thief would get destroyed by almost anything 1v1. Ranger would get destroyed by ele/engi 1v1 in matter of seconds. It’s a 5v5 game, not 1v1.

Thief is easily one of the best 1v1 classes, saying otherwise is absolutely astounding ignorance.

And no, it isn’t a strictly 5v5 game because of the nature of how the pvp matches are designed.

The only map that is straight 5v5 is courtyard. Every other map has smaller skirmishes in every facet because that’s the nature of multi-point control. That’s why 1v1 and 2v2s and every combination of smaller numbers are far more common in spvp.

Shadelang.3012:

Pelle Ossa. Im afraid I wont quote your post simply because of the spam making it so that it isn’t worth the space it would take.

You say that playing turret engineers discourages learning proper rotations. When in all actuality turret engineers REQUIRE that of their opponents. And also gives the turret engineer in question a front line seats to the results of poor rotations.

i don’t know how many matches you play , but in ranked atm 90% of engis don’t rotate , they simply stay on 1 point with their stupid turret (and some of this engis are in top 10 in leaderboard atm….)
and when both teams have 1 turret engi the match become 4 vs 4 mid or ppl getting farmed by turret on side….
soo much fun…..

but , it’s not only a turrets problem , there are a lot of things wrong , and thoese things put togheter ruin a lot of matches: class stacking , leaderboard (there are a lot of ppl in the high position who don’t know anything about rotation , they are high only because they farmed ranked all days) ,daily profession win …..

Turret Engineers are like fortresses: Hard to break and don’t move. Once they’re on a point, others usually give up or give a huge push[throwing 2 people to deal with 1 engi. That’s not taking into account the rest of the other team]. Basically, due to turret’s nature, they give the turret’s team a huge field advantage on whatever point they’re on. That alone isn’t too bad, you just have to be smart to not contest engi on their point. The problem people have is when there’s more than 1 turret engi, meaning this buff extending to two points.

A good way to see turrets is a +1 to any fight. With Supply Drop it turns into a +2 with a stun. Given the rest of the team, two turret engis can control the game almost entirely in this manner.

Turret engineers aren’t some indomitable monster hiding on the point.

They can’t single handedly kill any build that comes up against them. There very strong against what they provide counters for. But there pathetically weak against other situations. And they can EASILY be countered by extremely simple changes.

My ranger started taking a drake into PvP. I immediately stopped being worried about turret engineers. Simply because I could Pop SoTW and send in the drake to munch on the turrets while pelting the engi from afar. forcing him to abandon the point AND lose his turrets in the process. I can kill nearly any turret engi in the game in less that 20 seconds now on most points.

That was a VERY easy thing to do. And most classes have the capability of doing something similar (not I said most not all but then if EVERY class could counter(note I said counter NOT overcome) EVERY build completely the game would be a different pvp scene entirely)

The fact is that these are tradeoffs most people aren’t WILLING to make. Meaning there choosing to leave themselves open to these builds. And making forum posts about it when they pay the price.

Do I take this ability that will be very good in the fight against turret engis and give up something I would normally use on the rest of the game (drakes, glyph of storms, wells, reflects, hollowed ground etc..) or ignore it and accept that that build will probably hurt to fight. (holy crap that almost sounds like having to make a trade off. BALANCE)

you want a build that can absolutely hard counter a turret engineer? A concecration burn guardian. 6xxx6 with MoC stab on virtue of courage use and permeating wrath along with avenging wrath in the power line.

You now have a build that effectively stops ANYTHING the turret engi is known for. FORCING him to give the point to you for a time. And you can do it simply by pressing your utilities and spamming the one button with a greatsword.

You wouldn’t challenge a hambow without the ability to avoid/resist its stuns and expect to come out on top in the end. Why are you trying to do that with turret engineers?

Shadelang.3012:

Turret engineers aren’t some indomitable monster hiding on the point.

They can’t single handedly kill any build that comes up against them. There very strong against what they provide counters for. But there pathetically weak against other situations. And they can EASILY be countered by extremely simple changes.

My ranger started taking a drake into PvP. I immediately stopped being worried about turret engineers. Simply because I could Pop SoTW and send in the drake to munch on the turrets while pelting the engi from afar. forcing him to abandon the point AND lose his turrets in the process. I can kill nearly any turret engi in the game in less that 20 seconds now on most points.

That was a VERY easy thing to do. And most classes have the capability of doing something similar (not I said most not all but then if EVERY class could counter(note I said counter NOT overcome) EVERY build completely the game would be a different pvp scene entirely)

The fact is that these are tradeoffs most people aren’t WILLING to make. Meaning there choosing to leave themselves open to these builds. And making forum posts about it when they pay the price.

Do I take this ability that will be very good in the fight against turret engis and give up something I would normally use on the rest of the game (drakes, glyph of storms, wells, reflects, hollowed ground etc..) or ignore it and accept that that build will probably hurt to fight. (holy crap that almost sounds like having to make a trade off. BALANCE)

you want a build that can absolutely hard counter a turret engineer? A concecration burn guardian. 6xxx6 with MoC stab on virtue of courage use and permeating wrath along with avenging wrath in the power line.

You now have a build that effectively stops ANYTHING the turret engi is known for. FORCING him to give the point to you for a time. And you can do it simply by pressing your utilities and spamming the one button with a greatsword.

You wouldn’t challenge a hambow without the ability to avoid/resist its stuns and expect to come out on top in the end. Why are you trying to do that with turret engineers?

Yes and +1 to everything you said. In high tier play, the common sense thing would be to do is stand at a distance and pressure them off the point.

It isnt hard at all.

the problem that a few with valid points are addressing, though, is within the cacophony of “I died bawwW” and “how do I run into turret wait I melt?” and “2v1 is stupid when required”.

The problem, as I take it, is that Turret engineer is a direct inversion of the active playstyle that the game both touts as it’s selling point and that many players of other classes are ‘shoehorned’ into by nature (use that connotation lightly, the shoehorning here is more of a gentle prodding).

That would not be a bad thing if it wasnt so darn effective at being n00b bait. Most of us are just asking that they be required to put in a bit more work for the overwhelming advantage they have against close range and glassy classes.

Instead of… being an impenetrable wall for any solo class in conquest that isn’t specced specifically to deter them. In retort to your “Not challenging a hambow with ability to avoid stuns”, I say I indeed would, if the hambow was not adept at his build. skill in most cases allows people with by-the-books weaker builds to overcome players with stronger builds but weaker playstyle.

This doesnt apply to engies in many cases because they:

a.) Are not required to move
b.) Have AI handle everything.

That and, yknow, not being able to air deploy the turrets; cause that kitten is broken too.

@Azure I agree with you But I feel its not that big a concern. As just as people adapted to the MMancer the heart seeker hero and the Hambow/Eviscerate warriors. They will adapt to this too. Eventually taking something that can soft counter them will be common place and the build will dissapear completely.

WITH THAT SAID.

Im all for making them use more active play as long as there TOTAL potential increases in proportion to that. Theres no point in making a build more difficult to play if the player has no reason to try that hard. Atm turret engis have a fixed maximum. It means you can give the best engi in the game that build and theres a hard limit on how well he can do. They CAN’T push that limit like many other builds can.

There are often moments we see in pvp where we look at a player and say “I didn’t even know they could DO that” that never happens with a turret engineer after the first few times fighting them.

I am all for making them require more active play. As long as that change is reflected in there potential impact on the fight.

Edit: On the note of having AI handle eveything. I have to disagree with you there. External builds can be made in an extremely high skill way.

Also Edited out some irrelevant info I put in.

The problem is that in the past, there were decap engi builds. That was fine, because as frustrating as it was to fight them, they really didn’t do enough damage to matter. They couldn’t kill you, and you sure as hell couldn’t kill them/take their node.

BUT – Turret engis do too much damage for their role. Turret damage needs to be shaved for them to be balanced.

Amaterasu the thing is decap engineers actually did enough damage to kill many of the att node fighting builds. That was largely there purpose. (get off this point and let me decap it or your going to die and ill decap it anyway) while still having enough cc to handle the tankier enemies. There actually quite similar. Infact id argue that without the automated repsonse nerf turret engis would be EASIER to counter than decap engis.

Shadelang.3012:

Turret engineers aren’t some indomitable monster hiding on the point.

They can’t single handedly kill any build that comes up against them. There very strong against what they provide counters for. But there pathetically weak against other situations. And they can EASILY be countered by extremely simple changes.

My ranger started taking a drake into PvP. I immediately stopped being worried about turret engineers. Simply because I could Pop SoTW and send in the drake to munch on the turrets while pelting the engi from afar. forcing him to abandon the point AND lose his turrets in the process. I can kill nearly any turret engi in the game in less that 20 seconds now on most points.

That was a VERY easy thing to do. And most classes have the capability of doing something similar (not I said most not all but then if EVERY class could counter(note I said counter NOT overcome) EVERY build completely the game would be a different pvp scene entirely)

The fact is that these are tradeoffs most people aren’t WILLING to make. Meaning there choosing to leave themselves open to these builds. And making forum posts about it when they pay the price.

Do I take this ability that will be very good in the fight against turret engis and give up something I would normally use on the rest of the game (drakes, glyph of storms, wells, reflects, hollowed ground etc..) or ignore it and accept that that build will probably hurt to fight. (holy crap that almost sounds like having to make a trade off. BALANCE)

you want a build that can absolutely hard counter a turret engineer? A concecration burn guardian. 6xxx6 with MoC stab on virtue of courage use and permeating wrath along with avenging wrath in the power line.

You now have a build that effectively stops ANYTHING the turret engi is known for. FORCING him to give the point to you for a time. And you can do it simply by pressing your utilities and spamming the one button with a greatsword.

You wouldn’t challenge a hambow without the ability to avoid/resist its stuns and expect to come out on top in the end. Why are you trying to do that with turret engineers?

Ya, I just had a game with a ranger who could easily 1v1 the turret engineer. He then sat between the points and made it his business to hunt down the poor engineer. I felt bad, as I remember being picked apart by good teams on my turret engineer. I hope this dies down soon, but until then I’ll continue to play my burst engie and have lots of fun.

Adapt, it is the only kind of strength in this world. Good luck.

Shadelang.3012:

l its not that big a concern.

it isnt.

Im all for making them use more active play as long as there TOTAL potential increases in proportion to that.

That’s all I want. Don’t care how good they get, as long as standing still doesnt reward them as it does now. I have nothing against player skill, the benefits of skill, or any class in particular. I do have an issue against simple play that matches or beats out people with complex rotations.

The thing is azure. It doesnt beat out people with complex rotations. At all. It beats out people that use the WRONG rotations. After all a rotation isn’t a simple thing where you can say (were gonna do this then this then this and thisl be the result) pvp doesn’t work that way.

Turret engineers can be countered by CORRECT rotations. Simply by sending the right person to do the job. Or focusing your efforts everywhere.

The build is buffed by defending a small area because that is what the build DOES. That is the entire CONCEPT behind it.

The methods of stopping them cold are out there. And like ANY low input (by design not by choice) build. They CAN’T stop these things from happening. A thief can react to being hit by reveal or sic’em. A turret engineer CAN’T stop a stabbed drake form eating his rocket turret. It simply doesn’t have the capability.

Meaning that in that sense. Their lack of input PUNISHES them for playing that build in that situation. Which shows that the fault isn’t in the engineer but the people fighting them that willfully choose to ignore the choices they could be making to handle it. Meaning they are willingly giving the engineer the ideal situation it has to have to work properly.

Edit: the result is that there is this ILLUSION that turret engineers are strong. When its simply a case of people giving them exactly what they need to work.

Shadelang.3012:

Turret engineers can be countered by CORRECT rotations. Simply by sending the right person to do the job. Or focusing your efforts everywhere.

I get this,

The build is buffed by defending a small area because that is what the build DOES. That is the entire CONCEPT behind it.

And this

The methods of stopping them cold are out there.

And this.

Edit: the result is that there is this ILLUSION that turret engineers are strong. When its simply a case of people giving them exactly what they need to work.

Hold it:

I get all of that. Two things on the last point.

There’s no illusion. They are strong, because of the last part you of your post.

That’s my problem. The engie is easily shut down in high level play (if there is one of them and someone/the team has specced expecting an engie to be on the opposing team). If anything with AOE so much as sneezes on them, they have a bad time. That much is true.

It still rewards victories over low-tier play too reliably with minimal effort though. Especially if there are multiple decap engies. No matter how trivial the matter of (stand outside rocket range, pepper engie) is, they still get results with doing relatively nothing but setting up AI.

And even perfect rotations on certain classes cause melts. Skill should be the deciding factor for these kinds of matches, not hoping RNG blesses your team with someone that can anti-engie (Not that that should be an issue if people actually adapt, but it still is, and everyone suffers for it).

Like I said, I don’t care how good they get, as long as they are required to work for it. As it stands now, it gives too much bang for the buck cents.

The issue is that I can’t reasonably justify supporting a balancing decision on a build that we already know is flowed when it will eventually be pushed out of its current place over time as people learn.

And to say they get results with doing relatively nothing is in fact false. And you logically know this. It would be more accurate to say that their result is disproportionate to their input due to how little input they can actually have (again by design not by choice).

Which is as you said their greatest strength. But it also goes hand in hand with their greatest weakness which is just as crippling as it is empowering.

We can’t look at one while ignoring the other.

We know that in the ideal circumstances the build is strong. We know that outside of those circumstances the build might as well not even exist anymore.

As I said I can fully agree with allowing the engineers the ability to have more input in the build. The ability to individually target each turret for example on different opponents would be incredibly cool for example. But not because the build is strong in its ideal circumstance. But because OVERALL. its a lack luster build thats ONLY place in the game is farming new players.

Many builds have done this in the past. And many more will do so in the future. The game will outgrow the turret engineer whether we like it or not. My HOPE would be that any changes would be in a method to allow the turret engineer to push the limits of its build in order to attempt to hang onto its relevancy in the fight.

That by its nature will also manage to force the build itself to become more active.

As for rewarding victories over low tier play reliably with minimal effort however. Isn’t that kind of what makes low tier play what it is? the players there havnt progressed to the point that they can overcome this build or recognize its many flaws. If anything we should be thanking the build for teaching new players how to think outside the box when it comes to fighting different types of opponents.

I feel like judging the turret engineer based on its input/result is a tricky thing.

Do we only judge in combat input? Does all his pre planning and preparations ahead of time disappear? Are they worthless? No. Because most of the turret engineers fighting is done before the fight starts. Once it starts. He loses the ability to influence the overall direction of the fight. Leaving ALL initiative to his opponent.

At that point its more like a strategy game. They set up what they can based on what they hope will happen. But once the fighting starts aside from minor changes here and there. His overall influence on the course of the fight is done.

Again. Im fine with them bringing the turret engineer in line with other builds. As long as they do it in the right way for the right reasons. NOT because of how it looks in a vacuum.

edit: fixed some grammatical errors. I know I missed a lot more than I got but I focused on the heavy ones.

Shadelang.3012:

And to say they get results with doing relatively nothing is in fact false. And you logically know this. It would be more accurate to say that their result is disproportionate to their input due to how little input they can actually have (again by design not by choice).

(…)

Hyperbole, of course. Granted. I wouldn’t say they have little input, but I will acquiesce to disproportionate results.

That being said, judging this is a tricky thing, and to be honest I never really considered it as being part of meta-game strategy due to the fact we cannot determine how to respond to the engineer using that strategy short of taking that responsibility upon ourselves. (such as designating someone.)

However, that was due to ignorance of even seeing it that way rather than choice.

Still think that “just leaving them alone until we get used to them” is a really poor way to handle it. It’s just stagnation for both the engis playing that route and those that have to fight them on the off chance that somehow we find a way to counter them without explicitly devoting a character or build to doing so (which is pretty kitten hard in premades, let alone in pugs).

Some kind of activity to maintain the current level of effectiveness of the turrets (like HP degen/ reduced spawn time coupled with reduced cooldown or even increased cast time for the more problematic setups coupled with some kind of active maintenance (And buffs to running something less stationary) would add some depth to the playstyle, the engie as a class, and reward more complexity while punishing stationary play.

I would be fine with maybe removing the turrets auto heal capability in return for reduced cooldown OR more synergy with the tool kit (its 1 skill currently heals turrets but no one uses it for that capability). It would encourage turreteers to maintain there visual link with there turrets so they can monitor there health at all times and know when they need to repair.

Maybe having the tool kit be capable of giving a targeted friendly turret a form of active defense. (for example someone puts a lava font under a rocket turret if the engineer was able to use magnet in the tool kit to give it a protective shield. OR pull the turret to him. being able to relocate turrets (at a lower almost negligible cooldown than its normal use) would allow turret engineers to actively defend there turrets from pressure.)

edit: also another thing to consider is that it really doesnt take much to counter them. You dont need that full build switch. But you will have to give up something in order to have that key utility. Which I feel is where most people balk at this point. Even if they know they SHOULD. Its easier to call for general nerfs instead of changing the build they love to adapt to the current battle.

Shadelang.3012:

Its easier to call for general nerfs instead of changing the build they love to adapt to the current battle.

Good suggestions above, also wanted to focus on this.

It’s true. AOEs melt turret engies, but people aren’t willing to just make a build change, largely, to counter them.

Hell, even ricochet on a silly pistol/pistol build harasses engineers.

True that you cant have it both ways. And I do agree that there should be a point where players stop calling for nerfs and start actually getting good.

Don’t think that should be solved with a stationary build though. Let’s leave that lesson for revenant, and get the turret engies on their feet.