How the game should be balanced
The only unfortunate thing about that is they want to make sPvP an e-sport, which means the top 5% is what they are going to balance things around (which is why they said they launched the game with one sPvP mode only, to focus on that very thing). It’s why Warcraft has never been considered very legit on the high scale by a lot of people, because it tends to cater to paper/rock/scissor and pigeon-holed builds and team comps at high level.
Obviously people will debate all day if Anet will acheive this, and it might not be the best strategy from a financial standpoint, but my point it, I think that’s where they are aimed, and they are probably willing to sacrifice some disinterest for frustration in their product to acheive it.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
Game should be balanced based on the experience of 95% of the players not the top 5%. Like it or not the same game are played very differently by players. The top players have more skill MORE TIME AND BETTER GEAR, they play their class very different from the rest of the player base.
you sir, are whats wrong with the world. do you by chance, support communism?
also, you 100% invalidated your opinion with the above bolded words. explain to me HOW being a top player magically grants you a time machine, and HOW do i get “better gear” in pvp? i would VERY much like to outgear people, but i havent figured that out yet.,.,.,
While I feel simpathy for you, I can’t agree with you.
It’s in the human nature to strive for more, thx to that 5% player base, the remaining 95% got something to aim and train for, it’s virtually impossible to balance something around a determined skill level, they will always be people of upper and lower level compared to it.
If you want more, you must work for it that’s how it works in life
I think that’s one of the larger challenges in any game like this.
There’s always going to be a disparity between low level and high level play and buffing/nerfing things based on low level play has the potential to make things either severely overpowered or underpowered at the higher tiers.
From a technical standpoint, I don’t really know what the solution is. However, from the perspective of marketing and finance, it’s pretty obvious – you balance around your casuals because esport status is never, ever going to happen without a massive player and viewer base.
Game should be balanced based on the experience of 95% of the players not the top 5%. Like it or not the same game are played very differently by players. The top players have more skill MORE TIME AND BETTER GEAR, they play their class very different from the rest of the player base.
you sir, are whats wrong with the world. do you by chance, support communism?
also, you 100% invalidated your opinion with the above bolded words. explain to me HOW being a top player magically grants you a time machine, and HOW do i get “better gear” in pvp? i would VERY much like to outgear people, but i havent figured that out yet.,.,.,
First off yes everyone get same gear in Spvp. The better player knows what gear to get because they have tested out the stats , tried them on dummies then tested out in matches. You may not like to admit it but 60% of the battle are determined before you even start attacking. The person who have done the home work on what combo of gear works best for his/her class have a big advantage over the one who is just wearing the template. Second , time . The more you play the better you are at the game. The best players tend to play more than the rest of the player base. Not everyone spend their waking hr trying to figure out how to win in GW2. The ones who spend more time thinking and playing will do better than the people who don’t. Simple as that.
Gotta agree with Spoonfoy and Arheundel on this one. If anything, the game should balance around the top 0.1%, so that the other 99.9% of us can see where we need to go in terms of skill development as well as what can achieve if we can better ourselves.
The top players will always be playing their characters with skill due to refined reflexes/ability rotations, battlefield awareness, and the understanding of all of GW2’s mechanics. What you’re saying is that developing this level of knowledge and performance with your class is pointless since people shouldn’t be learning to perfect their skills, but instead, sticking to methods and builds that the average players uses poorly.
All players should strive to reach the top of their game, those who want an easy way to get there will simply never see that peak.
btw I’m not asking for nerfs or buffs. I play a elementalist and all I do is pvp. I am quite happy with my class and how I do. This is just a general post. I have played DAoC WAR for years and many other mmo. I really like GW2 and hope this game does well. Just throwing my 2 cents on how I think Anet should manage the pvp so this game don’t die like the other pvp game I have played in the past.
You’re all wrong.
The game should be balanced at all ranges.
It’s possible to, for example, make a problematic ability at low skill levels less problematic by increasing the amount of setup or timing required to pull it off (ex: backstab combo). In some cases some abilities might have to be retuned entirely, but at any rate, it would be really bad to ignore ability combinations that are highly problematic at lower skill levels just because higher-level players don’t have issues with them.
You’re all wrong.
The game should be balanced at all ranges.
unfortunately sir, that is literally impossible. skill, will ALWAYS be the deciding factor in who wins a fight. even if there was only 1 ability in the game, that did 100 damage flat everytime, the best dodge rollers and LoS’ers would win. then people would cry to remove dodge rolling and make games in one big open room so theres no LoS, and they could get just as many kills as “top tier” players just by spamming their only skill and targeting people at random.
the top 5% want the same thing that ANet wants, a highly competitive game balanced at TOP TIER play, so that this game can grow into an eSport. people that die from standing in red circles and not stunbreaking/dodge rolling will never have a voice in that environment.
btw I’m not asking for nerfs or buffs. I play a elementalist and all I do is pvp. I am quite happy with my class and how I do. This is just a general post. I have played DAoC WAR for years and many other mmo. I really like GW2 and hope this game does well. Just throwing my 2 cents on how I think Anet should manage the pvp so this game don’t die like the other pvp game I have played in the past.
Your right to do so, this thread: (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/A-very-interesting-point-about-ESports-that-ANet-should-keep-in-mind/first#post486237) has some of the top players from SC2 explaining how their game is slowly dying due to casauls being left out when balancing.
If you would rather not watch the video or read the thread it paraphrases like this: Balancing for the top players makes the game much less casual friendly( since not everyone can be like the top players casuals get frustrated when only experts can perform well). This frustration leads to less people watching the esport, to less people going to tournaments, and to less reason for sponsors to shell out dough.
This phenomenon is clearly laid out, and shows that the majority of the player base is more important than the top when it comes to E-sport viability. Balancing around the average player lets them feel like they are doing well, and lets the pro’s feel like they are doing exceptionally well; which in turn leads to happy gamers.
That being said as spoonfey points out it should not be balance to the lowest common denominator. That leads to a bad game. But I do not agree with him that everyone wants to QQ and thinks they should beat top players. I am talking about the top 5%, spoonfey is talking about the bottom 5%, both are vocal but both are less important than the middle.
“I’m watching you violate my game mode”
(edited by Colton.9460)
btw I’m not asking for nerfs or buffs. I play a elementalist and all I do is pvp. I am quite happy with my class and how I do. This is just a general post. I have played DAoC WAR for years and many other mmo. I really like GW2 and hope this game does well. Just throwing my 2 cents on how I think Anet should manage the pvp so this game don’t die like the other pvp game I have played in the past.
Your right to do so, this thread: (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/A-very-interesting-point-about-ESports-that-ANet-should-keep-in-mind/first#post486237) has some of the top players from SC2 explaining how their game is slowly dying due to casauls being left out when balancing.
If you would rather not watch the video or read the thread it paraphrases like this: Balancing for the top players makes the game much less casual friendly( since not everyone can be like the top players casuals get frustrated when only experts can perform well). This frustration leads to less people watching the esport, to less people going to tournaments, and to less reason for sponsors to shell out dough.
This phenomenon is clearly laid out, and shows that the majority of the player base is more important to the top when it comes to E-sport viability. Balancing around the average player lets them feel like they are doing well, and lets the pro’s feel like they are doing exceptionally well; which in turn leads to happy gamers.
A simple fix for that would be the implementation of ELO system and same rank matches, that I believe exist in SC2 as far as I know, correct me if I am wrong but if I’m not then the casual players got nothing to complain in SC2 except for their laziness to train themeself to get better.
Anyway for the moment we will get paid tournaments – free tournament and sPvP, the latter should be used to train yourself in map awareness/team play and about your profession. Free tournaments is where you test what you’ve learned in sPvP, finally in paid tournament you go when you think to have mastered your build/profession and general game mechanic
(edited by Arheundel.6451)
You’re all wrong.
The game should be balanced at all ranges.
unfortunately sir, that is literally impossible. skill, will ALWAYS be the deciding factor in who wins a fight. even if there was only 1 ability in the game, that did 100 damage flat everytime, the best dodge rollers and LoS’ers would win. then people would cry to remove dodge rolling and make games in one big open room so theres no LoS, and they could get just as many kills as “top tier” players just by spamming their only skill and targeting people at random.
the top 5% want the same thing that ANet wants, a highly competitive game balanced at TOP TIER play, so that this game can grow into an eSport. people that die from standing in red circles and not stunbreaking/dodge rolling will never have a voice in that environment.
The problem with that is . Who is going to care if there are only 1 server and 1k people playing GW2? Wouldn’t it be better for everyone to have 1 mil player base playing a slightly less perfect game than to have 1 thousand player playing a perfect pvp game? The problem with balancing for top 5% is when you have 1 mil players the 50k is the top 5% when your player base drop to 50k , the 5% is now only the top 2.5k. Skill is relative , the top tier today at 1 mil is the skilless newb once all the casuals quit. It becomes a downward spiral that I have seen too many times before.
They are currently doing the opposite of what you are saying they are balancing it of the 90% of people who dont know what they are talking about tbh. if they did what you are saying the game would be a lot better !
[TSU] NovaBlue/Fattest Ele EU – Tsunmai’s Ele/founder and leader
btw I’m not asking for nerfs or buffs. I play a elementalist and all I do is pvp. I am quite happy with my class and how I do. This is just a general post. I have played DAoC WAR for years and many other mmo. I really like GW2 and hope this game does well. Just throwing my 2 cents on how I think Anet should manage the pvp so this game don’t die like the other pvp game I have played in the past.
Your right to do so, this thread: (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/A-very-interesting-point-about-ESports-that-ANet-should-keep-in-mind/first#post486237) has some of the top players from SC2 explaining how their game is slowly dying due to casauls being left out when balancing.
If you would rather not watch the video or read the thread it paraphrases like this: Balancing for the top players makes the game much less casual friendly( since not everyone can be like the top players casuals get frustrated when only experts can perform well). This frustration leads to less people watching the esport, to less people going to tournaments, and to less reason for sponsors to shell out dough.
This phenomenon is clearly laid out, and shows that the majority of the player base is more important than the top when it comes to E-sport viability. Balancing around the average player lets them feel like they are doing well, and lets the pro’s feel like they are doing exceptionally well; which in turn leads to happy gamers.
That being said as spoonfey points out it should not be balance to the lowest common denominator. That leads to a bad game. But I do not agree with him that everyone wants to QQ and thinks they should beat top players. I am talking about the top 5%, spoonfey is talking about the bottom 5%, both are vocal but both are less important than the middle.
First of all, thanks for bringing a level headed argument to the boards. You show that it is possible to bring a strong stance without sounding immature.
My questions:
1) Do you think the issue is the speed at which they are balancing around the general consensus, or that they are not going to balance around the general consensus at all?
2) Since the issue is game interest, the PvE side of this game still has a lot of casual interested (relatively speaking to launch of course), so would that affect the interest in sponsorships, since it still has a very full PvE and to a certain extent WvW side of the game to counter-balance potential loss of interest in PvP?
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
May I point out that making the game seem balanced when average players are playing it and thus resulting in unbalance when top tier players are playing is not in fact balancing the game.
A rl example: 2 people are trying to kill each other, one with a knife and the other with a gun, both have never seen or used or heard of their chosen weapon before. In this fight the person with a knife stands a good chance of winning. This might make you think that a gun and knife are balanced or even that the knife is superior to a gun. In reality if you put those weapons in the hands of people who know how to use them the gun will prove its superiority.
A game should be balanced around numbers, data, utility, and uniqueness vs equality.skill Is to unstable and abstract to balance around imo. Skill should be considered when you implement class depth, but that is different than balance. They already have high and low skill cap professions.
@aydenunited
1) Until paid tournaments are out and we start to see what pro teams are doing, I dont think I can accurately answer this question. The level of competition and the development of high end meta still has a lot of room to be explored. I can try my best to answer this in accordance with what Arenanet has said and how hotjoins versus free tpvp is being treated imo.
The consensus from developers seems to point to hotjoin is for casuals, tpvp is for those more serious about the game. This means the game is balanced for 5v5 node control, not 8v8 hotjoins to the detriment of casuals. They seem to ignore the general consensus of hotjoiners, while giving more weight to the tpvpers who voice concerns. This leads to better players in tpvp telling 8v8ers to l2p, QQ more newb, ect. which hurts the community.
In short; I think the issue is that they dont go by general consensus at all for hotjoins and react too fast to tpvp concerns.
2) The only interest that matters to sponsors will be tpvp. E-sports ideally have large prize pools to draw in the best players and lots of viewers to who to sell products to. If many players are still enjoying pve and wvwvw then it is great for the game as a whole but does little to increase Esport viewership which is cornerstone of gaining sponsors and starting a successful Esport
“I’m watching you violate my game mode”
May I point out that making the game seem balanced when average players are playing it and thus resulting in unbalance when top tier players are playing is not in fact balancing the game.
A rl example: 2 people are trying to kill each other, one with a knife and the other with a gun, both have never seen or used or heard of their chosen weapon before. In this fight the person with a knife stands a good chance of winning. This might make you think that a gun and knife are balanced or even that the knife is superior to a gun. In reality if you put those weapons in the hands of people who know how to use them the gun will prove its superiority.
And I would say that balancing a game around the top 5% unbalances the game for the bottom 95%. If you dont know how to fire the gun( to load the bullets, to kitten it, ect) and use it as a thrown projectile or a piece of metal to hit someone with then the knife is far superior. Ignoring balance for the majority to balance the minority is the crux of the esport problem other games are having, please watch the video in the thread I linked. It has the top players themselves explaining how this is bad.
“I’m watching you violate my game mode”
btw I’m not asking for nerfs or buffs. I play a elementalist and all I do is pvp. I am quite happy with my class and how I do. This is just a general post. I have played DAoC WAR for years and many other mmo. I really like GW2 and hope this game does well. Just throwing my 2 cents on how I think Anet should manage the pvp so this game don’t die like the other pvp game I have played in the past.
Your right to do so, this thread: (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/A-very-interesting-point-about-ESports-that-ANet-should-keep-in-mind/first#post486237) has some of the top players from SC2 explaining how their game is slowly dying due to casauls being left out when balancing.
If you would rather not watch the video or read the thread it paraphrases like this: Balancing for the top players makes the game much less casual friendly( since not everyone can be like the top players casuals get frustrated when only experts can perform well). This frustration leads to less people watching the esport, to less people going to tournaments, and to less reason for sponsors to shell out dough.
This phenomenon is clearly laid out, and shows that the majority of the player base is more important than the top when it comes to E-sport viability. Balancing around the average player lets them feel like they are doing well, and lets the pro’s feel like they are doing exceptionally well; which in turn leads to happy gamers.
That being said as spoonfey points out it should not be balance to the lowest common denominator. That leads to a bad game. But I do not agree with him that everyone wants to QQ and thinks they should beat top players. I am talking about the top 5%, spoonfey is talking about the bottom 5%, both are vocal but both are less important than the middle.
I think there are more interesting questions than just drawing a correlation between balancing decisions and popularity.
1. How are up-and-coming MOBAs affecting SC2’s popularity? Maybe people are finding that they like a 5v5 arena more than a 1v1. For games like DotA, often action starts right out of the gate. In SC2, you’re more than likely waiting several minutes for anything to happen, and sometimes the game then ends before you can blink or appreciate what’s going on.
2. What else has SC2 done to shun its casual playerbase? I think balancing for the top tier is fine, as long as you don’t funnel everyone into the same game mode. In SC2, casuals often play the exact same game that pros do, which just causes problems. You can blame a large number of things for that, including the monetizing/privatizing of custom maps, B.net 2.0’s UI design, etc. In GW2 it’s actually very similar, though you could PvE or WvWvW as well if you’re so inclined. Still, sPvP offers one experience.
I’d like to see some ideas for people saying balance should be geared towards the “average” player. What’s average? How many hours per week? How much time spent researching the game? What sort of attitude does the average player have? How will this affect the top-tier/e-sports meta? Will it provide the appropriate skill ceiling to allow pros to obviously excel beyond the capabilities of an average player?
There’s one fact that must be true: For professional e-sports tournaments, a game must be balanced at the top tier.
The rest of the details can be up for debate on how you popularize a game, maintain a following, etc. However, if you’re going to hold tournaments, for money, for professionals, it needs to be balanced for them. Period.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
@Mogar (reply isn’t working again)
So what you’re saying is that, I, who have done homework on all the classes, who knows what the most effective build, gear combination, weapon setup, and skill execution, should have a “fair” chance to win/lose to some random person that just slapped together a random build with some random traits and gear selection? NO THANK YOU.
I think the game should try to be balanced at all levels, but when it comes down to it the game MUST be balanced around high level play. Don’t cater to the lowest common denomanitor. I have invested more time and management into this game than some random scrub who just strolls into PvP one day, so why should he be just as succesful as me? You should REWARD the people that work the hardest, not give out handouts to people that don’t try.
/rant
Zunhar, you completely missed the point.
The point is not to flatten skill curves.
The point is to fix things that ruin lower-level play so less-skilled players can enjoy the game without feeling like some gimmick is ruining the fun.
I think it’s frustration talking there. I don’t agree with OP, and this coming from a fresh necro which apparently is a class with problems, and not quite popular for tpvp either (not in the power version anyway). For me personally though I think that when I lose a fight it’s because the other one was better. It’s almost never because the other has the easier class. I should have kited. I should have dodged. I should have interrupted. I should have been better prepared. Or I should have run instead of diving into a fight that I couldn’t win! But I’m convinced that I can learn that.
I’ve only just started playing and am a mere r10, but I plan to improve. Granted, that’s not easy in spvp (didn’t find a team yet) where it’s about running with the zerg (which I don’t like) and being lucky with your teammates.
But you can’t balance a game around the majority of players, like those in 8v8 spvp. People just want to farm glory there and that makes for a totally different playstyle. And to be honest, I don’t think anyone wants to remain in spvp forever. Don’t you want to go tpvp and have more fun and have things balanced there?
May I point out that making the game seem balanced when average players are playing it and thus resulting in unbalance when top tier players are playing is not in fact balancing the game.
A rl example: 2 people are trying to kill each other, one with a knife and the other with a gun, both have never seen or used or heard of their chosen weapon before. In this fight the person with a knife stands a good chance of winning. This might make you think that a gun and knife are balanced or even that the knife is superior to a gun. In reality if you put those weapons in the hands of people who know how to use them the gun will prove its superiority.
That would depend on the range that we are talking about lol. You can cover 30 feet and stab someone before the average professional can shoot. The firearm is not always superior.
@Durga: I think you bring up an interesting point: personal responsibility. You’ve seem to accept that, often, there was something you could have done better to perform better.
What percentage of the average player, do we think, can evaluate a situation and say “Yeah, I put myself into a bad situation” or “I should have brought X” or “I just got outplayed there”? I admit, I sometimes get frustrated as well and have a rough time admitting it was a matter of me being outplayed, but typically that frustration stems from me knowing that I underperformed with regard to cooldown management, timings, etc. I admit those things to myself and aim to improve.
The Bull’s Charge into Frenzied 100B didn’t kill me, my lack of awareness/Endure Pain killed me. Same with the Backstab combo of old.
My estimation is that few players blame themselves, and many blame the game. In such a scenario, how do you balance the game for these players?
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
I like to point out that I’m in NO WAY saying game should be balanced so that a less skilled player can beat a more skilled player. Mainly that is not possible. Skill wins in the end no matter what even if we dumb the game down to pong, the more skilled player will win.
What I am saying is, when a skill or a class is reviewed . It would be better to see the impact of the skill or class played by an avg skilled player vs another Avg skilled player rather than through the lens of a very skilled player vs anther very skilled player. Take backstab as an example. At the top end, a none theif player will have the skill to realize when he is going to be backstabed and counter by either moving or CC etc etc. So it’s not a huge deal. in fact a skilled thief would most likely not rely on such a binary skill rather invest in something that’s more reliable he/she can use in more situations. But the same thing in the hands of your avg player vs anther avg player is quite a diff. thing. Since most avg players will not have the awareness and reflex to move or fire counter at the right time it then makes it very easy for anther avg player who is playing a Thief to land a hard hitting combo with ease. This leads to a rather overpowered skill.
And I would say that balancing a game around the top 5% unbalances the game for the bottom 95%.
Lets be clear about what is actually happening in your example. The game is not in fact “unbalanced” for the bottom 95%, its balanced, its just that the bottom 95% don’t know what they are doing.
If you dont know how to fire the gun( to load the bullets, to kitten it, ect) and use it as a thrown projectile or a piece of metal to hit someone with then the knife is far superior. Ignoring balance for the majority to balance the minority is the crux of the esport problem other games are having
Your entire example precludes the possibility that players can actually get better. When they get better the game will become inbalanced.
There is no balance for “majority” or balance for “minority” there is balance… period. Hard numbers is balance. What you are talking about it intentionally unbalancing the game to skew it so that some things that might seem weak if you are bad but are very powerful once you have the skill to use them are buffed to the point that you can use them effectively even if you are not good. The problem with this kind of balancing is that it causes a skilled player to become an unstoppable god once he gets his hands on an ability that was powerful from the start but was made stronger so that scrubs could use it.
please watch the video in the thread I linked. It has the top players themselves explaining how this is bad.
I watched the video, and I agreed with most of it. The problem is that the video went in your eyes, went through your brain, and is now coming out of your fingers as something totally different than what was said in that video. There was not word 1 said in that video about balancing for mediocre players. In fact the guy who does most of the talking even said that the balance issues currently in starcraft don’t even matter. This is proven even more by the fact that one of their main focuses is LOL. LOL is not even remotely balanced, not for bad players, not for mediocre players, not for skilled players and everyone knows it. If anyone has any concept of balance they can plainly see that lol is balanced horribly for EVERYONE.
The summary of that video is that you need to market your game and make it a FUN game. Which LOL is. Playing starcraft (for many people) is more like work than fun. That doesn’t have any reflection on balance.
You could take some lessons away from that video and apply them to gw2 but changing the balance of the game is certainly not one of them, if anything that video would advocate moving balance to the bottom of the list of things to do.
EDIT: He never once says is that video that balance problems are the reason why SC2 is suffering which you try and make it sound like. The reason why SC2 is suffering is very clear and well laid out in the video. Its being competed against and its not competing back. The reason is probably that the more players riot has the more money they get (riot points ect…) Where as blizzard already has your money for the game so really does not care.
Unfortunately gw2 is in the same boat as sc2. There are not much in the way of mini transactions in gw2, once anet has your money there is no incentive for them to work hard at marketing/ keeping the game well known and fresh. The game has been out for how many months now? Still no other game type modes? Still not even a duel mode? No incentive to drive the game at all… their game sales have already probably tapered off, as has their incentive to do anything more with the game…. rather than any major issues being fixed expect a purchasable expansion soon.
(edited by Parakeet.6083)
May I point out that making the game seem balanced when average players are playing it and thus resulting in unbalance when top tier players are playing is not in fact balancing the game.
A rl example: 2 people are trying to kill each other, one with a knife and the other with a gun, both have never seen or used or heard of their chosen weapon before. In this fight the person with a knife stands a good chance of winning. This might make you think that a gun and knife are balanced or even that the knife is superior to a gun. In reality if you put those weapons in the hands of people who know how to use them the gun will prove its superiority.That would depend on the range that we are talking about lol. You can cover 30 feet and stab someone before the average professional can shoot. The firearm is not always superior.
Your confused about some things. The number you are looking for is 21 feet. A knife is supposed to be as dangerous as a gun if you are within 21 feet, that doesn’t mean that the gun is LESS dangerous, its just that the knife is on par with a gun at that range. Your random factoid about being able to move 30 feet before someone can shoot is just false. Run 30 feet right now and ask yourself if you had time to move your index finger less than an inch in that amount of time.
Take a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jfqoq1e1nlA#!
Video isn’t linking right, just copy paste.
As you can see both of them would probably end up killing each other.
E-sport should obviously be balanced around the top players…
However the non competative part is very important too. If something owns everyone in a non serious environment but is useless at higher skill, it is still just as broken as if it was also OP at higher skill.
Yes some classes are better in the hands of a bad player, but there should be boundaries to that. Certainly when we’re talking about degrees of one shotting newbies then something is wrong and unhealthy even for the e-sport part of the game.
Funny enough a lot of whines are about the insane burst, and the insane bunkering both. If we nerf one then the other will indirectly become even stronger. What i can see from that is that there might be an issue with scaling. Be it from just (availability of) stats, or too low cooldowns on certain abilities. My mesmer scales insanely well with a damage amulet as my escapes give me survivability, but also clones which i can shatter. Or use an offensive ability which makes a clone that i can use defensively with Disruption. A lot of my abilities give me damage and survivability both, which becomes rather crazy when wearing i.e a berserkers amulet.
Stealth needs no explanation.. This game isnt e-sport ready until the rendering issue is fixed as far as im concerned. Just rather amateuristic, how do you expect to balance around that.
Either way the game would benefit from bringing the extremes a bit closer together. As such a look at base hp pools might not hurt either if you dont want to screw with the class defining mechanics too much.
(edited by GankSinatra.2653)
WHEN anet will implement ladder the game will be balanced at all ranges , because everyone will belong to his own range of skill, so everyone will have the same chances to win a match.
furthermore, “pro players” stream, have their forum and share their builds/playstyle. instead of whining on forums, you could start watching them how they play their class and how they deal with other classes. it will worth the time spent
You’re all wrong.
The game should be balanced at all ranges.
unfortunately sir, that is literally impossible. skill, will ALWAYS be the deciding factor in who wins a fight. even if there was only 1 ability in the game, that did 100 damage flat everytime, the best dodge rollers and LoS’ers would win. then people would cry to remove dodge rolling and make games in one big open room so theres no LoS, and they could get just as many kills as “top tier” players just by spamming their only skill and targeting people at random.
the top 5% want the same thing that ANet wants, a highly competitive game balanced at TOP TIER play, so that this game can grow into an eSport. people that die from standing in red circles and not stunbreaking/dodge rolling will never have a voice in that environment.
The problem with that is . Who is going to care if there are only 1 server and 1k people playing GW2? Wouldn’t it be better for everyone to have 1 mil player base playing a slightly less perfect game than to have 1 thousand player playing a perfect pvp game? The problem with balancing for top 5% is when you have 1 mil players the 50k is the top 5% when your player base drop to 50k , the 5% is now only the top 2.5k. Skill is relative , the top tier today at 1 mil is the skilless newb once all the casuals quit. It becomes a downward spiral that I have seen too many times before.
If just a couple of highly skilled players make themselves common in the SPvP, TPvp areas, hundreds, even thousands will run away crying for a nerf bat if classes were balanced not considering the epitomy of game play.
As time progresses, more and more people will become part of the skilled elite. Not using the top end of progress as a model for balance could ultimately drive away the average player and leave the game as a 2 or 3 class bandwagon for a few hundred people.
The structured pvp in this game is designed as a skill game, not a gear grind or hang out with your friends area. That was the design of PvE and WvWvW. I for one hope this will never change. Speaking as a average to poor player, I welcome the skill challenge.
If you played warhammer online recently, and you were not someone who spent the time grinding to 100 rr (personally I am an alt junky), you will understand my next statement. When I was around rr 80 on a couple of my toons, they decided to implement a boost system for lower level players. On my Black Orc (constantly complained about as being on of the worst/weakest classes in the game) I went from thinking I was one of the worst players around to feeling like a kittenong insects. I was nearly unbeatable 1v1 or even 2v1. That is when I had an epihony…wow, my skill is really not sub par, in fact…I don’t think I have ever played an mmo where skill actually mattered 90% of the time.
Then came GW2
Wow, some people seriously think that skill matters more in GW2 than class and build?
Are we even playing the same game?
Wow, some people seriously think that skill matters more in GW2 than class and build?
Are we even playing the same game?
Let’s say it’s 40% skill and 60% build, for the rest any class can own all others
Wow, do some people think that skill is not >than just about anything and everything?
Do we even play the same game?
If I lost it’s because I didn’t play well enough, and my opponent made less mistakes then me.
A class is OP when someone has to become an expert in order to have a chance to avoid being killed in 2 seconds by that class. Any class that can kill an equally skilled players in less than 4 seconds is OP. It’s OP because it doesn’t make the game fun for the vast majority of the player base. Games don’t need to cater to the 5% – those people have time and can take care of themselves. Any player worth their weight will always choose a more difficult class and learn to play it well. Thief and mesmer are currently the two easiest classes by far.
What took me over a month to learn on a ranger, I was doing twice as well with a thief and mesmer with just 2 hours of playing each class. I played each class for a day before I got bored and went back to the ranger. Anyone who thinks those classes are not broken is crazy!
The good thing about GW2 is you can roll the class of the hour in no time flat, copy a build and compete without a problem. The bad part is once you get bored of pawning everyone, the top class becomes redundant. You can’t roll a weaker class without spending hundreds or thousands of hours learning every aspect of it or you will just die at the hand of lesser skilled players with OP classes. That is when people leave on a search for a game with better balance.
So, lets say we nerf backstab because 80% of the community is too noob to counter it, and a little debuff to pistol whip (just giving a couple of random examples).
What’s left for top players with the thief?
It’s """"""""""""""""balanced""""""""""""""""" in low tier fights, and it’s an absolutely noob choice to go thief if you want to go pro. So, basically, going low tier with thief is also noobish because you cant really go far with the class if you’d want to.
I love how people knows how to do things better than the people who studied it.
From my limited experience, I think there are about seven professions currently being used successfully by the best of the best teams. Seven out of eight: actually very good balance. Unfortunately, two professions are practically mandatory for a top team right now, but it’s a good start (we’re only two months past release, after all).
At the hot join level, from my limited experience, I would say there are only about 4 successful professions, mostly due to a low skill floor and deathmatch-style play (sure, there are points but…everyone knows no one cares about points in hot joins).
There’s a reason we’re seeing so many of the same few professions in hot joins: the other professions found nothing fun about sPvP. They came, they got ganked, they left. Goodbye. They won’t recommend GW2 to their friends, they won’t buy expansions, they won’t become tourney-level players. If I were the CEO of Anet, I would rather have a million more people enjoy the game, than to see all 8 professions viable for a few thousand top players.