Guild Wars 2

There’s no need to nerf guards into oblivion. Sure, they have a lot of blocks, some invulnerability, and a ton of area/node control. But that doesn’t mean we should knock them out of the meta.

Instead, just put a cast time on their traps. It doesn’t even have to be a long one. That way, through good timing and awareness, enemy players have a chance to interrupt their traps, which would be so important if it were possible due to the AoE daze and area control that these traps can inflict. This would also make guards take a little more skill to play by requiring knowledge about good moments for when to drop traps to avoid mishaps.

EDIT: I’d also like to point out that every single trap that both rangers and thieves have take 0.5 seconds to lay down. Guardian is the only profession where this isn’t the case for traps.

In case people don’t know: Only Test of Faith and Fragments of Faith don’t have a cast time. All the others traps have a ½ activation time.

Fragments of Faith being a stun break doesn’t make sense to have a cast, while Test of Faith is actually the only insta cast trap.

One could argue a cast time for Test of Faith won’t make much difference since when you activate it, you are inside the trap already so won’t receive any extra damage from crossing the blades, but, at least for me, it doesn’t matter if this trap gets an activation time or not.

Anet could reduce the radius of the traps, however, I think in the case of the Test of Faith is going to be a buff instead of a nerf since it will reduce the size of the “safe zone” inside the trap. It will be easier to push, pull and accidentally cross over the swords.

azyume.6321:

In case people don’t know: Only Test of Faith and Fragments of Faith don’t have a cast time. All the others traps have a ½ activation time.

Fragments of Faith being a stun break doesn’t make sense to have a cast, while Test of Faith is actually the only insta cast trap.

One could argue a cast time for Test of Faith won’t make much difference since when you activate it, you are inside the trap already so won’t receive any extra damage from crossing the blades, but, at least for me, it doesn’t matter if this trap gets an activation time or not.

Anet could reduce the radius of the traps, however, I think in the case of the Test of Faith is going to be a buff instead of a nerf since it will reduce the size of the “safe zone” inside the trap. It will be easier to push, pull and accidentally cross over the swords.

These are good points. It helps for people to really know how guardian/DH works before asking for nerfs and this comment illustrates that nicely. That being said, I’ll weigh in:

In a pvp setting, Guardian/DH at the moment has too good of aoe damage, burst and cc capabilities without actually giving up that much in terms of sustain/utility. It’s a very fun class to play and I think reverting any of the mechanical changes they made last patch (like the stability change on f3, symbols on 1h weapons, 2 condis cleared on f2) would be poor moves. Nerfing damage output would make non-berserker/marauder builds near useless (and also make berserker/marauder builds incapable of killing things like druid or scrapper) and nerfing cc access is something that needs to be done across the board.

Instead, something that could make guardians less problematic and actually killable would be small to moderate sustain nerfs. The biggest offender by far is Purification. At a half-second cast time with a very subtle animation and over 10k health given to the guardian, this gives DH monstrous sustain even with very little other sustain that would be traited for/selected as utility. A large nerf to the initial healing of this trap and/or a small nerf to the main healing portion of the trap would go a long ways in nerfing-without-gutting. Alternatively, the cooldown could be increased.

No other facets of guardian/DH really strike me as OP. Players often complain about high block uptime. A 1s nerf to the blocktime of our f3 would be a fair nerf, but any more would heavily decrease its value in even being activated. A cast time added to ToF could also be implemented as well. All traps on other classes have 1/2s cast times and this one should too. This is actually a lot less consequential of a nerf than many think though.

Every Class Should Be Able To Kill Every Other Class In 1v1. That’s how you balance all classes.

Cobrakon.3108:

Every Class Should Be Able To Kill Every Other Class In 1v1. That’s how you balance all classes.

go play with a shout guardian and tell me if that exist XD

azyume.6321:

In case people don’t know: Only Test of Faith and Fragments of Faith don’t have a cast time. All the others traps have a ½ activation time.

Fragments of Faith being a stun break doesn’t make sense to have a cast, while Test of Faith is actually the only insta cast trap.

Well of Power, Rumble, Well of Precognition, Bypass Coating and Headbutt say hi.

The first two of those were designed way before HOT to follow the concept of: stunbreaker with a cast time and with a bit of added stability to counter CC spamming, such that the additional effect of the skill had a chance to cast (NOTE: they belonged to classes designed to be weak to focus). This is the reasoning the developers stated in a time where the amount off CC going around wasn`t at the high level that HOT brought. Even Well of Precogniton was initially conceived in an environment preceding extensive “in practice” experience of final HOT spec designs. And the same reasoning for its cast time+stability was stated by the devs in streams during the BETAs.

The particular design aspect of stunbreaker with a cast time shown by Well of Power, Well of Precognition and Rumble make perfect sense “in-void” because all of them have a very potent after-effects (for their respective times during the game`s history); Necro well is an AoE condi-to-boon conversion for allies (plus combo field); Rumble is a short-range AoE attack with a good damage modifier (for that time) and a blast finisher (potentially crucial for a glass turret build using it); mesmer well was AoE invulnerability for allies (now aegis pulse) and endurance restoration (plus combo field). On the two that have 1/4 cast times, the natures of the respective classes (at the time) and of the skills allowed enough counter-play for the those short intervals; in other words, the skills were very predictable short-range, short duration AoEs on classes that were weak to focus.

In the case of Bypass Coating, it is still a very potent after-effect that is shared with allies, its effect radius is the same as wells (according to tooltip), and non-traited CDs are close (30-45 seconds range) between all 4 skill. So it doesn`t have 1 second stab on cast because… reasons? Because devs wanted to give wide access to stability for scrapper in other forms and it would`ve looked sketchy?

You might think it is odd that I added Headbutt in the list, but it is still an atypical stunbreaker. It respects the design of stunbreaker succeeded by a potent after-effect, similar to the other listed skills. Even though the stunbreaker part is instant, it is followed by animation lock (can be broken only with weapon swap), thus it puts you at a form of disadvantage (not to mention the self-stun) as trade-off for the after-effect. In terms of other design aspects, having very potent single target effects with a big tell on a short-ish CD is in the foundation of the warrior class of this game; does it really have to be a way better Skull Crack given to all other weapon sets, though ?

TL;DR This game has had non-instant Stunbreaker designs in a working, viable form for quite some time now. Of course the amount of CC HOT introduced is a problem for that type of design

Om Im.7863:

azyume.6321:

In case people don’t know: Only Test of Faith and Fragments of Faith don’t have a cast time. All the others traps have a ½ activation time.

Fragments of Faith being a stun break doesn’t make sense to have a cast, while Test of Faith is actually the only insta cast trap.

Well of Power, Rumble, Well of Precognition, Bypass Coating and Headbutt say hi.

The first two of those were designed way before HOT to follow the concept of: stunbreaker with a cast time and with a bit of added stability to counter CC spamming, such that the additional effect of the skill had a chance to cast (NOTE: they belonged to classes designed to be weak to focus). This is the reasoning the developers stated in a time where the amount off CC going around wasn`t at the high level that HOT brought. Even Well of Precogniton was initially conceived in an environment preceding extensive “in practice” experience of final HOT spec designs. And the same reasoning for its cast time+stability was stated by the devs in streams during the BETAs.

The particular design aspect of stunbreaker with a cast time shown by Well of Power, Well of Precognition and Rumble make perfect sense “in-void” because all of them have a very potent after-effects (for their respective times during the game`s history); Necro well is an AoE condi-to-boon conversion for allies (plus combo field); Rumble is a short-range AoE attack with a good damage modifier (for that time) and a blast finisher (potentially crucial for a glass turret build using it); mesmer well was AoE invulnerability for allies (now aegis pulse) and endurance restoration (plus combo field). On the two that have 1/4 cast times, the natures of the respective classes (at the time) and of the skills allowed enough counter-play for the those short intervals; in other words, the skills were very predictable short-range, short duration AoEs on classes that were weak to focus.

In the case of Bypass Coating, it is still a very potent after-effect that is shared with allies, its effect radius is the same as wells (according to tooltip), and non-traited CDs are close (30-45 seconds range) between all 4 skill. So it doesn`t have 1 second stab on cast because… reasons? Because devs wanted to give wide access to stability for scrapper in other forms and it would`ve looked sketchy?

You might think it is odd that I added Headbutt in the list, but it is still an atypical stunbreaker. It respects the design of stunbreaker succeeded by a potent after-effect, similar to the other listed skills. Even though the stunbreaker part is instant, it is followed by animation lock (can be broken only with weapon swap), thus it puts you at a form of disadvantage (not to mention the self-stun) as trade-off for the after-effect. In terms of other design aspects, having very potent single target effects with a big tell on a short-ish CD is in the foundation of the warrior class of this game; does it really have to be a way better Skull Crack given to all other weapon sets, though ?

TL;DR This game has had non-instant Stunbreaker designs in a working, viable form for quite some time now. Of course the amount of CC HOT introduced is a problem for that type of design

Are you really comparing oranges to apples?

You are wrong about the non-instant stun break predominating before HoT. Check out this nice list of Stun Breakers. Out of 49 utilities skills with stun break among all professions in game only 4 (Bandit’s Defense, Stomp, Well of Precognition and Well of Power) have a cast time.

Sorry, hard to consider your post when it is heavily based in a false argument.

Dh are no op, the problem is that players do not know how to fight against Dh, I who am ranger and my nickname is Raplion I can guarantee that most of the problem of people’s forum is lack of skills and fingers, because now this season the classes are well balanced compared to other season.

Cobrakon.3108:

Every Class Should Be Able To Kill Every Other Class In 1v1. That’s how you balance all classes.

poor selfish classes.

azyume.6321:

Are you really comparing oranges to apples?

The objective of my post was not about comparing, but about proving your logical fallacy and lack of game knowledge that you demonstrated in the quote I initially made bold. For that purpose, I had to highlight that some obvious design similarities exist between certain stunbreaker skills, which is not even tangentially “comparing oranges to apples”. Saying something like “oranges and apples are both fruit and both have seeds” is not a scenario fitting of that expression, these are conceptual-level similarities.

azyume.6321:

You are wrong about the non-instant stun break predominating before HoT.

I am beginning to sense a pattern of lack of reading comprehension. I never stated or hinted, not even remotely, that non-instant stunbreakers were “predominating before HOT”, that`s your interpretation. The recurring theme in my post is quite obvious (even summarized at the end in bold): skills of this type exist and there are reasons why they exist (which I explained). “This game has had non-instant Stunbreaker designs in a working, viable form for quite some time now” is the only phrase from which the far-fetched interpretation of “predominating before HOT” could have risen; if “working, viable form”=“predominating” to you… well then… why does logic and a well structured argumentation trigger you so bad? You do realize that “working, viable” does not mean “it is great at ESL level”, right? “Viable” means not in the state that skills like: spirit weapons, guardian signets, elementalist signets, conjured weapons, elementals, were at that time (and still are now — NOTE: ele signets did have a short period of being viable).

azyume.6321:

Out of 49 utilities skills with stun break among all professions in game only 4 (Bandit’s Defense, Stomp, Well of Precognition and Well of Power) have a cast time.

You could`ve saved your time and checked my links, which are from wiki too, instead of tryharding that list (if you did do that). You do realize everyone can see the “Activation Time” icon on the far left near the skill icon for every one of the skills I stated, right? On a side note I also happen to test things like this in game on a regular basis, plus I have used both those old skills when they were usable and the HOT skills. Also, you do realize that desperately trying to hide your fallacy because someone pointed it out and you got upset over it is rather pointless with such obvious evidence, right? You are just making yourself look bad.

In Gw2, the “Activation time” icon is used for both casting times and channeled skills, having “Duration” written in the tooltip does not mean it has a cast time (the more you know).

Bandit`s Defense is considered a skill that you channel, like almost all the non-aegis blocks in this game (not a cast time). Cast time = you start creating one or multiple effects that appear at the end of a duration without any other effect happening in that duration as a result of that cast. Channeled = compared to the previous description, it has multiple effects during the cast/duration. The most obvious examples of the difference: Shield of Courage —> cast time, Meteor Shower --> cast time, Crystal Hybernation —> channel (it has pulses during its duration), Empower --> channel, Conterblow —> channel, Protector`s Strike --> channel. The only atypical things about Bandit`s Defense are: that it has an instant block frame on activation with the potential of obtaining a modified skill, its insanely low CD for that class and the extremely long duration that the “kick” lasts once obtained (compared to other classes`modified skills); apart from that, works like most stunbreakers in this game.

You are right about Stomp, it is an atypical stunbreaker with a cast time, I simply forgot about it. Its design doesn`t bear the conceptual similarities that Well of Power, Well of Precognition, Rumble and Bypass Coating share between them, except for the tiny bit of instant stability for the after-effect. It is in tune with the warrior class theme like Headbutt, big tell, get great utility from landing the hit, short-to-medium CD, the after-effect of the stunbreaker is an animation lock so it puts you at a risk. The most recent rework of this skill was a really smart design from the devs, props to them, however it still poses the question: did warrior really need more access to stability?

Also forgot Rite of the Great Dwarf, and it bears the conceptual similarities between Well of Power, Well of Precognition, Rumble and Bypass Coating. After-effect is, again, a very potent ally support. Very interesting that it lacks the 1 second stab (like Coating) on a class where high access to stability was introduced with the Elite Specialization line (like scrapper). Hmmmh.

azyume.6321:

Sorry, hard to consider your post when it is heavily based in a false argument.

Sorry that logic and coherent argumentation triggered you so strongly. Maybe the sarcasm in the opening bit was too strong? too subtle? it provoked the lack of reading comprehension and blatant lying that followed?

TL;DR Encore: Stunbreakers with a casting time exist and have existed in this game, and there are reasons that “make sense” when it comes to why they have a cast time.

*Hopefully you don`t miss this time that the whole discussion is about your “having a cast time on a stunbreaker doesn`t make sense” comment. Stunbreakers with a cast time still break stun instantly, so no one is “terking yer jehbs”.

Guards are just too good with their symbols and traps aoe damage on a small point. Where they used to be roamer dps, they are now intended to bunker on points while still doing massive damage due to traps (was fighting a guy with menders ammy and he was pretty much unkillable, while easily killing 2 ppl on his own with timed traps and there was nothing I could do). Simply reduce their aoe capabilities and we’ll be good.

Adding cast time to traps won’t solve much, since interrupts on demand aren’t a very common sight. Also, once a trap is dropped, cast time or not, it’s still gonna do massive damage.

Tomiyou.3790:

Guards are just too good with their symbols and traps aoe damage on a small point. Where they used to be roamer dps, they are now intended to bunker on points while still doing massive damage due to traps (was fighting a guy with menders ammy and he was pretty much unkillable, while easily killing 2 ppl on his own with timed traps and there was nothing I could do). Simply reduce their aoe capabilities and we’ll be good.

Adding cast time to traps won’t solve much, since interrupts on demand aren’t a very common sight. Also, once a trap is dropped, cast time or not, it’s still gonna do massive damage.

Meditrapper is the only thing that works on Guardian/DH, all other classes have gimmicks builds to, some are just more efficient than others, if players are beign carried well that is what gw2 is also about to.

U just need to pay atention and play with what makes you win.

azyume.6321:

In case people don’t know: Only Test of Faith and Fragments of Faith don’t have a cast time. All the others traps have a ½ activation time.

Fragments of Faith being a stun break doesn’t make sense to have a cast, while Test of Faith is actually the only insta cast trap.

One could argue a cast time for Test of Faith won’t make much difference since when you activate it, you are inside the trap already so won’t receive any extra damage from crossing the blades, but, at least for me, it doesn’t matter if this trap gets an activation time or not.

Anet could reduce the radius of the traps, however, I think in the case of the Test of Faith is going to be a buff instead of a nerf since it will reduce the size of the “safe zone” inside the trap. It will be easier to push, pull and accidentally cross over the swords.

In case you did not know, Dh traps are the ONLY ones that do not have cast times.

You could argue this point all day if you want to but It needs to have cast times.

OR

Put a stunbreaker and boons on ranger and thieves traps as well.

Seems only fair right?

StickerHappy.8052:

azyume.6321:

In case people don’t know: Only Test of Faith and Fragments of Faith don’t have a cast time. All the others traps have a ½ activation time.

Fragments of Faith being a stun break doesn’t make sense to have a cast, while Test of Faith is actually the only insta cast trap.

One could argue a cast time for Test of Faith won’t make much difference since when you activate it, you are inside the trap already so won’t receive any extra damage from crossing the blades, but, at least for me, it doesn’t matter if this trap gets an activation time or not.

Anet could reduce the radius of the traps, however, I think in the case of the Test of Faith is going to be a buff instead of a nerf since it will reduce the size of the “safe zone” inside the trap. It will be easier to push, pull and accidentally cross over the swords.

In case you did not know, Dh traps are the ONLY ones that do not have cast times.

You could argue this point all day if you want to but It needs to have cast times.

OR

Put a stunbreaker and boons on ranger and thieves traps as well.

Seems only fair right?

Wrong. While i’m not opposed to buffing the other traps, saying that’s what’s fair is BS. I can’t wait to see the qq on condi ranger traps that daze lol

R O C.6574:

StickerHappy.8052:

azyume.6321:

In case people don’t know: Only Test of Faith and Fragments of Faith don’t have a cast time. All the others traps have a ½ activation time.

Fragments of Faith being a stun break doesn’t make sense to have a cast, while Test of Faith is actually the only insta cast trap.

One could argue a cast time for Test of Faith won’t make much difference since when you activate it, you are inside the trap already so won’t receive any extra damage from crossing the blades, but, at least for me, it doesn’t matter if this trap gets an activation time or not.

Anet could reduce the radius of the traps, however, I think in the case of the Test of Faith is going to be a buff instead of a nerf since it will reduce the size of the “safe zone” inside the trap. It will be easier to push, pull and accidentally cross over the swords.

In case you did not know, Dh traps are the ONLY ones that do not have cast times.

You could argue this point all day if you want to but It needs to have cast times.

OR

Put a stunbreaker and boons on ranger and thieves traps as well.

Seems only fair right?

Wrong. While i’m not opposed to buffing the other traps, saying that’s what’s fair is BS. I can’t wait to see the qq on condi ranger traps that daze lol

What? Did you even read what i wrote?

Where did I mention dazes on traps?

Stunbreaker is indeed fair for thieves and Rangers, this one of the reasons why you cannot run 2 or more traps for these classes because you have 0 stunbreakers.

DH traps also have boons by default. You know this right? HS is the only one that grants boons for ranger ASSUMING YOU SIT ON THE TRAP. Which you won’t most of the time.

Hendrix.9763:

There’s no need to nerf guards into oblivion. Sure, they have a lot of blocks, some invulnerability, and a ton of area/node control. But that doesn’t mean we should knock them out of the meta.

Instead, just put a cast time on their traps. It doesn’t even have to be a long one. That way, through good timing and awareness, enemy players have a chance to interrupt their traps, which would be so important if it were possible due to the AoE daze and area control that these traps can inflict. This would also make guards take a little more skill to play by requiring knowledge about good moments for when to drop traps to avoid mishaps.

EDIT: I’d also like to point out that every single trap that both rangers and thieves have take 0.5 seconds to lay down. Guardian is the only profession where this isn’t the case for traps.

Don’t drag rangers into this. IF ranger traps were power based, you could say something. All ranger trap dmg can be removed via a condi cleanse. -IE NO ONE CARES. The CD times of ranger traps, if I am not mistaken, are longer than guard traps.

Really, Engineers should be the class up for ‘balance’.

Guard no need to balance. Guard need re-design.

Rap Tiger.1257:

Dh are no op, the problem is that players do not know how to fight against Dh, I who am ranger and my nickname is Raplion I can guarantee that most of the problem of people’s forum is lack of skills and fingers, because now this season the classes are well balanced compared to other season.

All classes can’t send the pet into the traps and pewpew at 1200 range. Plus i dont know if you run druid but actually if a druid loose against a DH, he is really stupid. Finally, you realize that your profession is a Dh counter. Is that mean all professions are too? Surely not. For example, take a condi rev, with all the skill that you have, you begin with a big disavantage against DH. You can win, by playing godely with all your fingers, mind and strategy. Butthe DH has near nothing to do seriously to do the same.

Edit: This season, when i see that i loose like 3 matchs in a row, i have just rolled my druid. I always do 1v2 far and let my team at 4/3 mid-close. Like 90% of the time i dont die all the guys, 50% i can down one of them and 25% i win my 1v2. So please dont speak here about ranger to give an argument to this post.