Guild Wars 2

An article that may or may not make you see through the PoV of the skill designs team, In my opinion, skill design and balancing should be 2 different posts with different people communicating with each other, having the same employee for both seems like a lot of work.

I followed it until that last section where it says “Just group balance changes arbitrarily at six months. It’s not a bad idea.”

While the article does have a point that you can’t constantly be balancing, there’s also a point at which you aren’t balancing often enough. In a PvE scenario, you can wait longer and balance isn’t as important as long as everyone is still useful outside of extreme min-maxing. But in PvP, balance is a large part of the game, and you can’t let things linger too long. “Extra Credits” is much better if you’re talking about PvP balance.

Exedore.6320:

I followed it until that last section where it says “Just group balance changes arbitrarily at six months. It’s not a bad idea.”

While the article does have a point that you can’t constantly be balancing, there’s also a point at which you aren’t balancing often enough. In a PvE scenario, you can wait longer and balance isn’t as important as long as everyone is still useful outside of extreme min-maxing. But in PvP, balance is a large part of the game, and you can’t let things linger too long. “Extra Credits” is much better if you’re talking about PvP balance.

Agreed, balance is very crucial for a game’s PvP future. I’m not saying it Anet should slack on balance, but the balance team is indeed very busy with designing the new elite specs and the new class. Its kinda just to say that the world isn’t as golden as we want.

Phantom Master.9582:

Agreed, balance is very crucial for a game’s PvP future. I’m not saying it Anet should slack on balance, but the balance team is indeed very busy with designing the new elite specs and the new class. Its kinda just to say that the world isn’t as golden as we want.

Yeah, that’s a good excuse for being unable to fix certain bugs and balance issues for 3 years – and every 6 months with major balance fix it’s getting worse and worse.

Point is, if we’ll think with such logic, then there is no need to demand or expect anything because there is always “something” that they’ll be busy with or whatnot.

After HoT update we will have what? Specialization balance issues?
And still loads of things which are in use that call for a touch since the very beginning are on abandoned list because…reasons?

Honestly….

pvp should be balanced every 6 months, at the earliest. (not including bug fixes) the game needs time to settle into a new meta and that takes a long time.

Tao.1234:

Phantom Master.9582:

Agreed, balance is very crucial for a game’s PvP future. I’m not saying it Anet should slack on balance, but the balance team is indeed very busy with designing the new elite specs and the new class. Its kinda just to say that the world isn’t as golden as we want.

Yeah, that’s a good excuse for being unable to fix certain bugs and balance issues for 3 years – and every 6 months with major balance fix it’s getting worse and worse.

Point is, if we’ll think with such logic, then there is no need to demand or expect anything because there is always “something” that they’ll be busy with or whatnot.

After HoT update we will have what? Specialization balance issues?
And still loads of things which are in use that call for a touch since the very beginning are on abandoned list because…reasons?

Honestly….

The only excuse I can give for Anet i regards to balances is that, the issues people seem to QQ about isn’t an issue at all. The ones that are an issue, got a balance fixes.

Example: People complained about Ele’s for months leading up to the patch. Patch hits, now people QQ about Mesmers as well as Eles. Mesmers received a nerf bat while Eles remain unchanged.

One could say that Eles were always fine and never needed a nerf while the immediate Mesmer buff from patch got a quick fix thereafter.

When people say "game needs a balance, things needs to be fair, ", I question exactly what needs balancing and what people’s definition of “fair” is. There are so many builds/skills/traits and team comps that people simply aren’t utilizing. It’s difficult for the devs to pinpoint exactly what’s inbalanced.

Saiyan.1704:

The only excuse I can give for Anet i regards to balances is that, the issues people seem to QQ about isn’t an issue at all. The ones that are an issue, got a balance fixes.

Example: People complained about Ele’s for months leading up to the patch. Patch hits, now people QQ about Mesmers as well as Eles. Mesmers received a nerf bat while Eles remain unchanged.

One could say that Eles were always fine and never needed a nerf while the immediate Mesmer buff from patch got a quick fix thereafter.

When people say "game needs a balance, things needs to be fair, ", I question exactly what needs balancing and what people’s definition of “fair” is. There are so many builds/skills/traits and team comps that people simply aren’t utilizing, it’s difficult for the devs to pinpoint exactly what’s inbalanced.

Sure.
But here’s a problem.

Those balance changes hit two contents:
- PvP
- WvW

In this aspect, both modes need to be treated on pair.

Within, there is also a need to balance two types of damage sources:
- Power
- Condition

And here are the issues we have
Anet is regularly boosting condition, nerfing power(till trait patch recently).

Condition builds which mechanics are way too overpowered in matter of too much damage output + high survivability, are simply ignored – PU Condi mesmer for example.

The task is rather simple.
It’s not a big deal to bring all those builds and classes together and tweak them to the point, where a personal “skill, experience and knowledge” matters, not broken build.
It’s no rocket science that the outcome won’t be as shiny as it sounds, because there will be certain builds that will have an upper hand against certain ones, but trade off will exist, because those builds won’t be effective against others.

Overall, it is possible to bring all those builds and classes close enough to call it “50:50” chance.

Year ago, Engineer had roughly 4~5 viable builds. And by viable I mean that it could be played and be an asset to team instead of wasted slot.

Today, we have like 1? Maybe 2 where both aren’t that much different from one another.

Thief’s Scorpion’s Wire hasn’t been fixed for 3 years – really? It’s a good skill I’ll say. But no one uses it because it’s broken.

What’s more, for several if not few months by now, there is 0 communication between Playerbase and Developer team.
Both in WvW and PvP forum.

Sure, I don’t blame them if they have no time, but that proves that Anet is neglecting us, customers, and their resource distribution sux.

Mesmer was…let’s say OP…against certain things – but mostly was because of Power boost which was unnecessary. And in aspect of downing someone, all power builds were 2-3 shoting each other.
There was no need to nerf Mantras – and now they’re useless pretty much again, while the PU Condi still is a cheese in WvW – well, pvp not because that cleanse aoe spam made me even drop my p/p engi.

I am up for tweaks that will make all classes and their builds viable, despite meta or not. It is possible, but as long as Anet will keep drinking that eSport juice and keep neglecting people who wish to work with them on balancing and keep conversation, then people won’t stop leaving both WvW and PvP as it is happening for a long time by now.

And frankly, new games keep going out, and Action Aim systems are becoming a standard nowadays in MMORPG games.
As I’m not trying to threaten, but many people will simply leave and play something else, before they’ll hate Gw2 due to bad development and management.

Mesmer’s PU survival tools is what makes them strong – not necessarily because of conditions. They’re equally a pain if they were Power. Some argue that PU Condi is half as strong as Power in TPvP where Necro/Shoutguards/Ele reign.

Mesmers have always been great 1v1 fighters in general so.. I wouldn’t call that aspect OP either simply because… it’s always been that way. That’s not to say it’s fair.

I don’t believe WvW should be treated the same way as PvP. There are several more sigils/runes/buff items, than PvP. So they should not be given the same balance fixes… unless Arenanet are that confident in there WvW balances where the two can be treated as the same.. but I doubt it.

Look, it isn’t like the devs don’t have a successful model with GW1 that they can follow. The problem is they act like they need to reinvent the wheel. So much would be solved by splitting pve/pvp skills alone. I can’t believe this wasn’t done since the very beginning, given the success it had for GW1. Yet the devs prefer to ignore past successes and stumble around with the same freaking problems that were solved years ago.

Javonovich.5280:

Look, it isn’t like the devs don’t have a successful model with GW1 that they can follow. The problem is they act like they need to reinvent the wheel. So much would be solved by splitting pve/pvp skills alone. I can’t believe this wasn’t done since the very beginning, given the success it had for GW1. Yet the devs prefer to ignore past successes and stumble around with the same freaking problems that were solved years ago.

That would clearly be too anti-casual. I don’t Have time to learn 9 classes 2 times, let alone 3 if they split wvw.

Seriously Anet split the kittening kitten already and have a dedicated team work on spvp…

OneKlicKill.4285:

Javonovich.5280:

Look, it isn’t like the devs don’t have a successful model with GW1 that they can follow. The problem is they act like they need to reinvent the wheel. So much would be solved by splitting pve/pvp skills alone. I can’t believe this wasn’t done since the very beginning, given the success it had for GW1. Yet the devs prefer to ignore past successes and stumble around with the same freaking problems that were solved years ago.

That would clearly be too anti-casual. I don’t Have time to learn 9 classes 2 times, let alone 3 if they split wvw.

Seriously Anet split the kittening kitten already and have a dedicated team work on spvp…

No. For confusion we have already done this. Previously, confusion did half the damage in spvp than it did in pve. There’s nothing “anti-casual” about that. On the skill level, they’d be minor damage/formula adjustments that wouldn’t require relearning, not every skill would be affected, and skills that are changed would be designed as “pvp skills” so people would know there was a skill split. It couldn’t be easier for the players.

A dedicated spvp balance team is an unnecessary fix for ANET. Why? You can’t balance both pve/pvp skills at the same time because skills don’t function the same way in both modes. For example, Dhuumfire. Dhuumfire was nerfed because it was way OP in pvp. Yet now it’s laughably bad in pve (and even its former self would underperform). Now we’re left with a useless skill in BOTH modes. So there are some skills that just can’t be balanced between the two game modes bc the game modes are so different and have such different goals.

Burning, like confusion, is another great example. Despite how high it’s damage is, it still tends to underperform in pve compared to zerk builds, but it’s way too potent in pvp. I’d like to see conditions STRONGER in pve and more balanced in pvp (that is, viable but not all about burning). Good luck trying to have both.

For all of these people demanding a separate team for PvP…..
Are you going to be ok for separate teams for:
WvW
PvE General Content
PvE Fractals
PvE Living Story

If So, are you going to be fine with a hot patch every 2-3 hours? I’m having a feeling a lot of people forgot how many patches happened in Guild Wars 1 when they had everything split off separately….

It got ridiculous to the point of a patch to fix a patch that was originally meant for a future patch to fix a previous patch that day.

Wolfey.3407:

If So, are you going to be fine with a hot patch every 2-3 hours? I’m having a feeling a lot of people forgot how many patches happened in Guild Wars 1 when they had everything split off separately….

It got ridiculous to the point of a patch to fix a patch that was originally meant for a future patch to fix a previous patch that day.

Wow,

And here I thought Anet is mediocre.

You have succeed to convince me that it’s worse than I thought.

Tao.1234:

Wolfey.3407:

If So, are you going to be fine with a hot patch every 2-3 hours? I’m having a feeling a lot of people forgot how many patches happened in Guild Wars 1 when they had everything split off separately….

It got ridiculous to the point of a patch to fix a patch that was originally meant for a future patch to fix a previous patch that day.

Wow,

And here I thought Anet is mediocre.

You have succeed to convince me that it’s worse than I thought.

Anyone who played Guild Wars 1 SHOULD remember all the patches to fix skills for PvP or PVE since they were split…. It got a little ridiculous lol… With the addition of WvW they would have to split things into 3 and that will just be even more messy….

Ya, they can wait and do them all at the same time but if one of those 3 is broken, guess what? hot patch time!

10 Classes in Guild Wars 1
1 Common set of skills in Guild Wars 1
11 Sets to balance
x2 1 for PVE & PVP
—————————————————————————-
22 Sets to balance

Then add on to the fact that each class can couple with another so:
Warrior/Necro
Warrior/Mesmer
Warrior/Ele
etc.

Total combined skills to balance: 1,319
This does not factor in weapons since in GW1 weapons didn’t determine your skills (some exceptions) like it does in GW2.

GW2 wise:
9 classes (counting rev)
+ Weapon Skills for each class
+Downed State Skills
Granted you can’t mix and match classes but you have to break it into 3 instead of 2 now.
so X3 1 for PvP, 1 for PvE, 1 for WvW

Toss on Living Story and the updates we normally get… I think the picture is becoming clear xD

Then rework the Player vs Player formula.
And there is no need to split things into 3/4/5 or how much is needed.

What’s the problem to make an official post with application for players willing to help Live testing skills in PvP/WvW?
It will allow to nail bugs which would be extremely annoying(1-2 shotting possibility).
And also would allow to keep up with adjustment of skill attributes and it’s behavior.

My idea is very simple:
- Skill Z receive increased m% damage
- Skill X receive reduced cooldown by L seconds
- Skill C receive reduced n% damage
- Skill V receive additional base attribute

etc etc etc.

And by values, those can be really around 3~7%.
By adjusting all skills like that, there is a chance to bring those skills on pair with one another which in fact lead to possibility to create another build which will be viable and new.

Why not do that?
- Trapper Thief?
- Glamour Mesmer?
- Signet builds?
- Full elixir engineers?
- Gadget Engi?
- Trickster Thief?
- Spirit Weapon Guards?
- Spectral Necros?
- Shout Rangers?
- Spirit Rangers?
- Physical Warriors?
- Arcane Ele?
- Glyph Ele?
- Conjure Ele?

Those are only examples I came up with, but look how many builds would already appear in PvP and would allow people to play what they want and still contribute to their teams depending how they alone perform, not how build perform.

Of course, Meta would be meta, and meta people would whine for meta, because meta is meta. But it would be something that maybe would belong to eSport alone.

Of course some balances would kick in here and there, approx every 6 months, but changes would rather be insignificant as much and maybe – we would see another sets of Skill types for each class to increase further build diversity.

Problem is that Anet doesn’t have balls to ask community for help.
Doesn’t have balls to admit that they kittened up.
No balls to work with community to improve game modes and make majority enjoy it.

Well, maybe it’s a time to grow a pair so in time, eSport arena in Gw2 would grow double time if not triple or more.

Wolfey.3407:

Tao.1234:

Wolfey.3407:

If So, are you going to be fine with a hot patch every 2-3 hours? I’m having a feeling a lot of people forgot how many patches happened in Guild Wars 1 when they had everything split off separately….

It got ridiculous to the point of a patch to fix a patch that was originally meant for a future patch to fix a previous patch that day.

Wow,

And here I thought Anet is mediocre.

You have succeed to convince me that it’s worse than I thought.

Anyone who played Guild Wars 1 SHOULD remember all the patches to fix skills for PvP or PVE since they were split…. It got a little ridiculous lol… With the addition of WvW they would have to split things into 3 and that will just be even more messy….

Ya, they can wait and do them all at the same time but if one of those 3 is broken, guess what? hot patch time!
…

They could just instance the patches. Ex your not force to update spvp until you join HotM. You dont update WvW or Normal until you go to a zone in those locations.

Plus lets be honest here anet cant even push a patch every 6 months, It would be a dream to get patches monthly let alone weekly

Wolfey.3407:

For all of these people demanding a separate team for PvP…..
Are you going to be ok for separate teams for:
WvW
PvE General Content
PvE Fractals
PvE Living Story

Balance is very important to PvP, more so than in WvW or any form of PvE. It should have more manpower devoted to it. Similarly, PvE needs far more content than PvP and gets more content developers.

Exedore.6320:

Wolfey.3407:

For all of these people demanding a separate team for PvP…..
Are you going to be ok for separate teams for:
WvW
PvE General Content
PvE Fractals
PvE Living Story

Balance is very important to PvP, more so than in WvW or any form of PvE. It should have more manpower devoted to it. Similarly, PvE needs far more content than PvP and gets more content developers.

Die hard WvW players would beg to differ.

Anet can’t put their blinders on and be like “PvP is all that matters ever”

It’s very simple and easy to focus on only one thing and one thing only.

Actually, I’m a relatively new GW1 player and I find that it’s significantly better in balance than GW2. I might even say, an order of magnitude. I like the skill split.

Granted, it’s a mature game with a lot of development.

I think the basic problem is that GW2 devs keep pushing for a video game style. Fast twitch reactions as opposed to strategy.

As a result of the environment, people pick a build and play it in a stereotypical fashion. That’s what gives you wins. Hit button 2, wait, button 5 etc. One can almost ignore enemy actions if the burst button sequence is fast enough.

That really railroads the game to very specific classes and playstyles. I’m referring to Berserker and heavy armor or high burst. It also encourages skill spam.

In GW1 skill spamming and faceroll style gets you dead fast. In GW2, there really isn’t much of a penalty for just pounding buttons.

That’s a large part of why balance is so difficult to make happen.

Wolfey.3407:

Anet can’t put their blinders on and be like “PvP is all that matters ever”

It’s very simple and easy to focus on only one thing and one thing only.

I’m not saying WvW should be ignored. PvP needs more attention to balance. WvW needs its mechanics improved (population/coverage being the big ones). Is this due to a lack of staff, or management priorities? If it’s the former, I can understand; if it’s the latter, I think it should change.